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Alleged Snowden leaks
On the Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi an anonymous user added this interesting diff. It says "On July 15 2014, as part of former US NSA Edward Snowden leaks, it was reported that "the British and American intelligence and the Mossad worked together to create the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)." Since the story was picked up by the International Business Times it may be worth noting on the site, however I don't think it's authentic information. Snowden handed over his files to journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. I don't think either one of those would submit a story to "The Voice of Bahrain" Gulf Daily News without even being quoted. I could post and article in my self-owned tabloid titled "Snowden Leaks: Misplaced Pages Run By Extraterrestrials" and I'm sure it would get some attention, but that doesn't make it reliable or verifiable. Comments? - Technophant (talk) 04:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree entirely which is why I removed it earlier. If there is such a leak, why haven't the major media picked it up? Oh sure, maybe there's a conspiracy to keep it silent, but without much better sources we can't use this. Dougweller (talk) 12:15, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Just a general point here: do you not think that rumours which become widespread, sometimes internationally, and persist although they have been disproved should nevertheless be recorded? Readers could wonder why there is no mention of them and (falsely) accuse Misplaced Pages of missing "facts", e.g. the idea that ISIS is "too extreme" for even al-Qaeda (said wrongly to be one reason AQ gave for cutting ties with them) and the al-Baghdadi threat, "I'll see you in New York", which still have very wide currency although they are not true and yet Misplaced Pages is silent on them. Rumours or false stories can always be worded diplomatically so that Misplaced Pages is not seen to be recording them as fact. I did this twice - in the Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi article - with the "I'll see you in New York" story (which I still see repeated in the media) but was reverted both times. In other words, I think rumours that gain traction should be recorded in Misplaced Pages, especially since they sometimes become folklore over time. Looks like it is happening already with the ISIS being "too extreme" for al-Qaeda notion. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:26, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- When the mainstream media report that there is a rumour to this effect we can include it, meanwhile we should not be party to spreading it. Dougweller (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with that, but don't agree that reporting something as a rumour would be being a party to spreading it; that is what I meant about choosing careful wording. Does "The Daily Beast" count as mainstream media? They were the first to report the threat story, I believe, which caught on everywhere. My edit was "'The Daily Beast' reported that ... However, the US Defence Department said ...", giving their plain statement, backed up with a citation, which clearly refuted the DB's story. That seemed fair enough to me and made it clear that Misplaced Pages was not passing on the story as fact. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC) (I ought to make clear that the story and the refutation were not my edits, only the linking of the two in the way I did was. P123ct1)
- Actually being to extreme is a cited reason by aq for disafilliating ISIS, but not the primary reason. Al-Qaeda central issued several letters rebuking ISIS for its progress towards building a state, something which al-qaeda central did not want to happen for many years to come. Furthermore there is a long history of Al-Qaeda central rebuking ISI / ISIS for excessively specifically targeting muslim civilians as it thought it would sully the image of the organizaitons efforts in iraq. That being said, the primary reason it was disowned was for overstepping its operational area by expanding into Syria and refusing Al-Qaeda's decsision that Al-Nusra was a seperate operational command from ISIS.XavierGreen (talk) 22:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- @XavierGreen: Where have you seen Al-Qaeda say being too extreme was one reason for disaffiliating them? In all the footnotes to this article, this has not appeared once. It would be useful to have a source for this information added in, as it changes the overall impression that this is merely journalistic inference. (See discussion above at #39) It would be nice to set the record straight. --P123ct1 (talk) 08:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Actually being to extreme is a cited reason by aq for disafilliating ISIS, but not the primary reason. Al-Qaeda central issued several letters rebuking ISIS for its progress towards building a state, something which al-qaeda central did not want to happen for many years to come. Furthermore there is a long history of Al-Qaeda central rebuking ISI / ISIS for excessively specifically targeting muslim civilians as it thought it would sully the image of the organizaitons efforts in iraq. That being said, the primary reason it was disowned was for overstepping its operational area by expanding into Syria and refusing Al-Qaeda's decsision that Al-Nusra was a seperate operational command from ISIS.XavierGreen (talk) 22:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with that, but don't agree that reporting something as a rumour would be being a party to spreading it; that is what I meant about choosing careful wording. Does "The Daily Beast" count as mainstream media? They were the first to report the threat story, I believe, which caught on everywhere. My edit was "'The Daily Beast' reported that ... However, the US Defence Department said ...", giving their plain statement, backed up with a citation, which clearly refuted the DB's story. That seemed fair enough to me and made it clear that Misplaced Pages was not passing on the story as fact. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC) (I ought to make clear that the story and the refutation were not my edits, only the linking of the two in the way I did was. P123ct1)
- When the mainstream media report that there is a rumour to this effect we can include it, meanwhile we should not be party to spreading it. Dougweller (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Just a general point here: do you not think that rumours which become widespread, sometimes internationally, and persist although they have been disproved should nevertheless be recorded? Readers could wonder why there is no mention of them and (falsely) accuse Misplaced Pages of missing "facts", e.g. the idea that ISIS is "too extreme" for even al-Qaeda (said wrongly to be one reason AQ gave for cutting ties with them) and the al-Baghdadi threat, "I'll see you in New York", which still have very wide currency although they are not true and yet Misplaced Pages is silent on them. Rumours or false stories can always be worded diplomatically so that Misplaced Pages is not seen to be recording them as fact. I did this twice - in the Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi article - with the "I'll see you in New York" story (which I still see repeated in the media) but was reverted both times. In other words, I think rumours that gain traction should be recorded in Misplaced Pages, especially since they sometimes become folklore over time. Looks like it is happening already with the ISIS being "too extreme" for al-Qaeda notion. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:26, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
THANKYOU!!! Al Qaida broke ties with ISIL due to insubordination, it had absolutely nothing to do with them being "to extreme" They follow, to the t, the Quran and Sunnah, which makes them a threat to every "Muslim" dictator and king. YS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.148.252 (talk) 17:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Insubordination is the only reason given by al-Qaeda for their expulsion that I have seen in the press. That is why, as you will see, I have put "not in citation" beside the footnote appended to the vague term that implies being extreme was another of AQ's reasons (see para 4 of Lead). I would not want readers to be misled. I am glad to have your support. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC) (I made a mistake: the footnote does say being extreme was a supposed reason, as a later editor indicated, which is why the "not in citation" tag has now gone. I am grateful to the editor for pointing out my mistake. P123ct1)
- Is there any RS discrediting the Gulf Daily News article? If so then this story could be added in a verifiable context. How widespread is is this rumor? - Technophant (talk) 13:27, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I found this personal blog refuting the Snowden leak and http://globalresearch.ca 's somewhat inexplicible reporting and expansion of this material. Of course material on Blogspot, unless it can be confirmed to be written by a reliable author, is not permissible on Misplaced Pages. However I had the impression that Global Research was a reliable source. Apparently it's more like LiveLeak, just covering picking up on other news channels without doing it's own independent verification.
- The Wiki article on globalresearch.ca shows it to be a suspect source - see under "Criticisms" - it is clearly anti-American and anti-Semitic. (@Dougweller: You may want to comment here.) --P123ct1 (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- The July 16 Global Research article is certainly not the first source of this hoax, since it credits the July 15 Gulf Daily News report. However, Gulf Daily News simply revised a story published four days earlier at Som Daily News. Among the details Gulf Daily News judiciously cut out was Som's key clause in its lead: "according to Iranian news agency Farsnews." So not even Som Daily News is the original source. The reference to Iran's semi-official Fars News Agency may be to this story in Arabic published by Fars on July 8. As for Fars being a reliable source, it's useful to recall that in January 2014, Fars also cited Snowden as the source of its classic report "Snowden Documents Proving 'US-Alien-Hitler' Link" that space aliens run the U.S. government. JohnValeron (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
ISIL Leader Closely Cooperating with CIA
Additionally, there's been another story along similar lines put out by FARS News Agency ("Iran's leading independent news agency") titled "Russian Expert: ISIL Leader Closely Cooperating with CIA" quoting Vyacheslav Matuzov (bio). This story is probably worth mentioning, however it must be very clear that it's only Matuzov's opinion and not established fact. I started a thread at WP:RS/N to establish this sources reliability. - Technophant (talk) 14:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Water
IS and water. I keep adding sources to talk; I promise I'll get around to add them to the article soon!! AntiqueReader (talk) 15:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- That's interesting. Water scarcity in an arid region like this is a big deal. Climate change is also making this even worse. :-/ Rightswatcher (talk) 05:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- This section is Mesopotamia#Geography can be used to help understand the water issue further. Rightswatcher (talk) 05:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Goals
Does the article needs a "Goal" section? The two last paragraphs that come under "Ideology and Beliefs" has nothing to do withIdeology and Beliefs and would better go under another section such as "Goals". Mhhossein (talk) 08:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
As a minor note about the "Goals" section. There is a repeated punctuation error with the sections in quotations. The period is supposed to be placed inside the quotation marks, not outside. Epistance (talk) 23:53, 8 Aug 2014 (UTC)
- WP:MOS says if the quotation is incomplete, i.e. does not start at the beginning of the quoted sentence or does not finish at the end of it, the full stop goes outside the quotation marks, but if the last part of the quotation is a complete sentence, the full stop goes inside the quotation marks. e.g. (1) She said, "ISIS is jihadist group which fights in Syria and Iraq." (2) She said that ISIS is a jihadist group "which fights in Syria and Iraq". (3) She said, "ISIS is a jihadist group". --P123ct1 (talk) 19:42, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
ISIL Poll
I've started a poll at the talk page for List of sovereign states. You can find the poll here. We're discussing the inclusion of the Islamic State, the Donetsk People's Republic, and the Lugansk People's Republic. 
01:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
ISIS is officially a terrorist organization
There has been some dispute among users over whether Misplaced Pages can call ISIS a terrorist group. The US State Department has issued an official list of terrorist organizations, which formally designates ISIS as a terrorist organization. I have added this as a footnote, replacing the following footnotes, inserted today by someone else as back-up for their "terrorist" edit:- --P123ct1 (talk)
- http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/12/world/meast/who-is-the-isis
- http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2014/07/25/How-US-Allowed-ISIS-Form-Terrorist-Army
- http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/483261/Terror-group-Isis-gives-travel-advice-to-extremist-Britons-travelling-to-Iraq-and-Syria
- http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/july/crenshaw-isis-threat-071014.html
- http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly-news/isis-becomes-richest-terror-group-in-the-world-280624707806
- http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/iraq-travel-warning.html
- https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/iraq
- http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/24/norway-expects-imminent-concrete-threat-isil-terro/
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwldLjWL71o (video showing Obama referring to ISIS as a terrorist organization)
Countries that have officially designated ISIS as a terrorist organization:-
- http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm (that US Department of State doc we talk about below) (added by P123ct1)
- https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/324603/20140627-List_of_Proscribed_organisations_WEBSITE_final.pdf (ISIS officially proscribed by UK government in June 2014)
- http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/Listedterroristorganisations/Pages/default.aspx (ditto Australian government) (added by P123ct1)
- http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/07/us-saudi-security-idUSBREA260SM20140307 (ditto Saudi Arabia) (added by P123ct1)
- http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-eng.aspx (ditto Canadian government)
- http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2013/sc11019.doc.htm (ditto United Nations)
- Thanks for the links, but that doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages can refer to them as terrorists, as who are and are not terrorists is a matter of opinion; there is no worldwide body to designate groups or persons 'terrorists'. Ukraine calls the pro-Russian rebels 'terrorists'; Israel calls Hamas 'terrorists', the UK calls the IRA 'terrorists'; etc. In those cases the people or groups labeled likely do not see themselves as 'terrorists'. We can certainly note who calls who terrorists, but it is probably too loaded a term to use ourselves. 331dot (talk) 10:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The MoS covers it - see WP:TERRORIST: "Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." (my added underlining). So it can say "X considers Y to be terrorists" if widely used in reliable sources. DeCausa (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- So it is not possible to say, "They are generally considered to be a terrorist organization." and give the RS links (which all call them terrorists), it has to be more specific than that? There are several references in the article to ISIS as a terrorist organization, so I suppose they will have to go, too. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the usage in the body of the article is a problem. As far as I can see they are almost all either attributed aor refer to an attack being terrorist in nature, rather than the organisation. The only one I can see is a statement that "By 2014, ISIS was increasingly being viewed as a militia rather than a terrorist organization". That should be ok, I think, because it's not speaking in Misplaced Pages's voice - and provided the cited source backs up "increasingly viewed" (I haven't checked.) The statement in the lead is different. That says in Misplaced Pages's voice that they are terrorists. Looking at the original citations, they seem to be all from Western sources (mostly media and governmental). IMHO, the original sources could be maintained but the text should read "...is an unrecognized state and an active jihadist group in Iraq and Syria which has been widely described as a terrorist organization by Western governmental and media sources." Or something like that. That's my take anyway. DeCausa (talk) 11:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- BTW, I was acting on this edit summary:- ."(cur | prev) 18:59, 25 July 2014 Dougweller (talk | contribs) . . (203,122 bytes) (-10) . . (when they are officially declared terrorist we can use the word, until then we don't work by any sort of 'definitions') (undo | thank)". I have taken out "rather than a terrorist organization" as it wasn't in the cited source. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- You'd have to check with Doug whether he was anticipating they would ever be "officially declared" as terrorists. (I don't what body could even do that - UN Security Council?) Maybe he meant a kind of Greek calends kind of thing. DeCausa (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you P123ct1 and everyone. This is one more reliable and verifiable offical video from the White House that shows President Obama officially referring to ISIL as a "terrorist organization operating in Iraq" (at 0:07). Worldedixor (talk) 15:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I like User:DeCausa's suggestion. Note that the US has not official designated it as terrorist. We do have a good example of an organisation being designated as terrorist, see Al-Qaeda#Designation as terrorist organization. Worldedixor, Obama can't designate something as terrorist through a speech. It isn't on the official list at Dougweller (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- To Dougweller: I strongly disagree with your false statement "It isn't on the official list at ". Worldedixor (talk) 17:40, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I like User:DeCausa's suggestion. Note that the US has not official designated it as terrorist. We do have a good example of an organisation being designated as terrorist, see Al-Qaeda#Designation as terrorist organization. Worldedixor, Obama can't designate something as terrorist through a speech. It isn't on the official list at Dougweller (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you P123ct1 and everyone. This is one more reliable and verifiable offical video from the White House that shows President Obama officially referring to ISIL as a "terrorist organization operating in Iraq" (at 0:07). Worldedixor (talk) 15:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- You'd have to check with Doug whether he was anticipating they would ever be "officially declared" as terrorists. (I don't what body could even do that - UN Security Council?) Maybe he meant a kind of Greek calends kind of thing. DeCausa (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- BTW, I was acting on this edit summary:- ."(cur | prev) 18:59, 25 July 2014 Dougweller (talk | contribs) . . (203,122 bytes) (-10) . . (when they are officially declared terrorist we can use the word, until then we don't work by any sort of 'definitions') (undo | thank)". I have taken out "rather than a terrorist organization" as it wasn't in the cited source. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the usage in the body of the article is a problem. As far as I can see they are almost all either attributed aor refer to an attack being terrorist in nature, rather than the organisation. The only one I can see is a statement that "By 2014, ISIS was increasingly being viewed as a militia rather than a terrorist organization". That should be ok, I think, because it's not speaking in Misplaced Pages's voice - and provided the cited source backs up "increasingly viewed" (I haven't checked.) The statement in the lead is different. That says in Misplaced Pages's voice that they are terrorists. Looking at the original citations, they seem to be all from Western sources (mostly media and governmental). IMHO, the original sources could be maintained but the text should read "...is an unrecognized state and an active jihadist group in Iraq and Syria which has been widely described as a terrorist organization by Western governmental and media sources." Or something like that. That's my take anyway. DeCausa (talk) 11:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- So it is not possible to say, "They are generally considered to be a terrorist organization." and give the RS links (which all call them terrorists), it has to be more specific than that? There are several references in the article to ISIS as a terrorist organization, so I suppose they will have to go, too. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The MoS covers it - see WP:TERRORIST: "Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." (my added underlining). So it can say "X considers Y to be terrorists" if widely used in reliable sources. DeCausa (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Any chance you could be more rude Worldedixor? 'False' implies lying, 'wrong' is what I was - I didn't expect to find it was put on the list in 2004, and I'm surprised that it's taken 10 years to discover that. Dougweller (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Are you a new Admin? Why are you unnecessarily instigating me? It's time for you to educate yourself with WP:GF and learn how to assume good faith. I don't know who you are to be rude to you. I always make it abundantly clear if and when being rude is ever justified on Wikepedia. Here, I was factual. You made a false statement (educate yourself on the CORRECT definitions of "false") and do NOT assume my intent, just follow WP:GF... I strongly disagreed with what you stated, that's my unalienable right... and I pointed out that your statement was false in an objective manner. It was a fact that your statement was false. It was a fact also that it was I who fixed this major Misplaced Pages error after 10 years with the help of P123ct1. Cheers. Worldedixor (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Any chance you could be more rude Worldedixor? 'False' implies lying, 'wrong' is what I was - I didn't expect to find it was put on the list in 2004, and I'm surprised that it's taken 10 years to discover that. Dougweller (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- ISIS is on that official US terrorist list - i.e. - at 12/17/2004, some way down the list. --P123ct1 (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks and many apologies, as I said above it never occurred to me it would have been added 10 years ago yet not be in this article. I should have done a software search, not searched by eye. Dougweller (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I was as amazed as you to see it, and that this doc hadn't been unearthed for this article before! I randomly googled and got a big surprise. :) --P123ct1 (talk) 22:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)It still wouldn't mean that we give it the unqualified description of "terrorist". That is a source for saying the "US has designated a terrorist organization". But I don't think we should pick out one country's designation in that way. As Doug highlighted above, this is handled at Al-Qaeda by listing the countries and organizations that have so designated it. Then in the lead there is no bare statement that it is a terrorist organization. Instead it says "It has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations Security Council, NATO, the European Union, the United States, Russia, India and various other countries (see below)." DeCausa (talk) 18:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Of course. You have said exactly what I had in mind. Before seeing your comment just now, I had been looking at how Hamas is treated in Misplaced Pages in this respect and took my cue from that; it has a sentence similar to the one you quote. That is why I am adding to the list of countries (see list above) that have designated them as terrorists, so that they can be put together in a sensible sentence with sensible footnotes, like the one you quote. My comment was simply to point out that ISIS does, in fact, appear on that US State Department list. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:43, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The only countries I could find that have officially designated ISIS as a terrorist organisation are the US, UK, Australia and Saudi Arabia, the links for which are in the list at the top of this thread. (Can't find anything for the UN or EU.) Can't find anything for the EU. How about this wording (plagiarising DeCausa) or something like it?
- "ISIS has been designated as a terrorist organisation by the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia and the United Nations, (adding footnotes for the
fourfive countries and the UN) and has been widely described as a terrorist group by Western media sources."(adding some of the below as footnotes.)
- 1. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/12/world/meast/who-is-the-isis
- 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwldLjWL71o (the video showing Obama referring to ISIS as a terrorist organization)
- 3. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/11/isis-too-extreme-al-qaida-terror-jihadi
- 4. http://online.wsj.com/articles/jessica-lewis-the-terrorist-army-marching-on-baghdad-1402614950
- 5. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/12/isis-just-stole-425-million-and-became-the-worlds-richest-terrorist-group/
- 6 http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/11/iraq-s-terrorists-are-becoming-a-full-blown-army.html
- 7. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mosul-seized-jihadis-loot-429m-citys-central-bank-make-isis-worlds-richest-terror-force-1452190
I don't know which of these would be the most appropriate. Can anyone come up with better ones? --P123ct1 (talk) 21:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- AGREE with you P123ct1, as I said I will no longer contribute to this article but it would be unfair to you if I abandoned you at a time you have put in more effort in due diligence than most and came out with the best all-inclusive wording. So, this will give you what you need from me, and I will go out now to enjoy my dream life in paradise with zero stress and negativity. Worldedixor (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I can't believe this is a serious topic of discussion unless the word "terrorist" has been banned from Misplaced Pages. This entire thread seems to just stomp all over WP:COMMONSENSE. If terrorist is a term that can't be applied to this organization, then it should be stricken from the English language. This is just too bizarre to waste any more cyber ink on. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I had to STRONGLY AGREE in the best interest of WP. I couldn't have said it any better than you, Ad Orientem. I put "terrorist" in twice, and so did P123ct1. I actually called the FBI to verify and followed to the tee "Misplaced Pages has many rules. Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution". There's something that just doesn't add up with its repeated and disruptive reversal. I need to do some Google and other searches to get to the bottom as to why it has been repeatedly reversed. Worldedixor (talk) 08:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- (I only put "terrorist" in as part of the qualified sentence beginning, "ISIS has been designated as a terrorist organization by ...", i.e. as an indirect statement. P123 ct1 4/8/14 )
In List of designated terrorist organizations ISIS is listed by 6 countries/organisations including the UK (June 2014 - I just added it in) and UN. Widefox; talk 08:43, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I have added the two, Canada and the UN, to the list at the top and draft wording. I had already included the UK. I did see Canada, but only with the Al-Qaeda in Iraq listing, but that is ISIS, effectively. I missed the UN. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:16, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- To editor Worldedixor: I saw that quote from Misplaced Pages as well. Thanks for spelling it out on this page. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- You're welcome,P123ct1. It is obvious that there are well-meaning editors on here who fathom and adhere to WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:HTBC and many other WP rules. Worldedixor (talk) 09:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- To editor Worldedixor: I saw that quote from Misplaced Pages as well. Thanks for spelling it out on this page. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- The only issue has been how we use the word 'terrorist'. We don't just add words like that (another one is 'criminal') without appropriate sources and attribution. I and others have been trying to find the best way to do it (and there is no deadline). "ISIS has been designated as a terrorist organisation by the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia and the United Nations and has been widely described as a terrorist group by Western media sources." seems fine, but I'm not sure about the Obama video as that isn't really a media source but a restatement of the US position. Dougweller (talk) 09:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Also, there's something that just doesn't add up when you say "I and others". Why aren't the others "trying" on here? Worldedixor (talk) 09:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Dougweller In the list of possible footnotes, I was thinking of using in the list above nos 3, 4, 1 and 7, in that order, as footnotes for the media sources part of the wording. Would that be appropriate? I am not sure about the IBS being an RS, but the article is appropriate. If not the IBS, then the Washington Post? --P123ct1 (talk) 10:23, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- P123ct1 I think you mean IBT? I'd prefer the Washington Post - and of course any overseas sources we can find. But I agree we don't need and shouldn't have a lot. Dougweller (talk) 10:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Dougweller Sorry, I meant IBT. Shall I go ahead and put in that wording and replace the IBT with the Washington Post? At least the edit will be there and editors (not just me, I hope) can go on looking for some overseas sources to add to or replace some of them. By overseas sources do you mean European sources, Middle Eastern one like Aljazeera, Canada? I presume you don't mean US sources. How many do you think in total for the media sources footnotes, four, five? Or do you think there is not proper consensus yet on making this edit? I am new to how consensus on an edit works. I am quite surprised at the lack of interest in this important edit, apart from one or two others. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- You say there is no deadline. True, but events are forcing Misplaced Pages's hand, with now almost daily accounts of ISIS's atrocities, the wave of horrific videos on YouTube and other media sites, and respected journalists now calling ISIS "pathologically" violent and "psychopathic" (Patrick Cockburn and Stephen Glover). The longer this is left, the less credibility Misplaced Pages will have in the eyes of its readership, IMHO. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- For some reason I thought it was in the article as being designated as a terrorist group by the US. Yes, go ahead and add it now, we can improve the sources later. Maybe 5 sources, and later replace some of them. Dougweller (talk) 12:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- It being your edit, I take that gentle scolding in good part! I will add the rest in. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- For some reason I thought it was in the article as being designated as a terrorist group by the US. Yes, go ahead and add it now, we can improve the sources later. Maybe 5 sources, and later replace some of them. Dougweller (talk) 12:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I definitely do not agree with bluntly calling ISIS "terrorist" in the Lead (see recent edit). NPOV is completely lost. The whole point of the main edit was to get the idea firmly across in neutral terms, without the statement losing any of its force. Also, translation of the Arabic in footnote #40 shows "Islamic State", not "The Islamic State" (first words of article). Can't change it yet because of 1RR. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I believe you are misconstruing WP:NPOV. No one is expressing a POV. Being terrorists is FACTUAL not a POV. We already have reliable sources that support that they are terrorists and not even one reliable source that supports that they are "not terrorists". Also, I can read and understand Arabic extremely well. "الدولة الاسلامية" is translated correctly as "The Islamic State". "Islamic State" is translated as "دولة اسلامية " which is not what ISIS call themselves and which simply means ANY Islamic state. Hope this clarifies it. Worldedixor (talk) 21:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- (The translation of the second Arabic word, meaning "any" Islamic state, is "Islamic state", not "Islamic State". P123ct1 4/8/14.)
- Then all "Islamic State"s in the article will have to be changed to "The Islamic State", if you are correct - and in the al-Baghdadi article as well. I agree with "all over the world", though; "Iraq and Syria" is too narrow now. I think you have forgotten that old saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. (Think of the IRA, for example, or the Israeli terrorists led by Menachem Begin in the fight to establish Israel as a nation, or even Nelson Mandela in his early days, although "terrorist" would perhaps be too strong a word in his case.) That is why we have to have NPOV, however distasteful it may be here. The second commenter on this thread made that point, which I agreed with - but not to the extent of pussy-footing around this issue the way Misplaced Pages has been doing until now. This is all a matter of striking the right balance, and I do think this form of words that Misplaced Pages has used before, on Al-Qaeda and Hamas, and DeCausa's formulation, strike the right balance. We don't want to go overboard with this. That's my POV! --P123ct1 (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- We also have to remember that Misplaced Pages is not like a history book (which interprets events, so value judgments come into play - and "terrorist" is a word that carries a judgment) but more like annals (a chronological list of events, barely stated). It sticks in my throat to have to be so neutral about ISIS, but intellectual honesty demands it, given that Misplaced Pages is an encylopaedia, not a history book. And as Dougweller said, there is nothing wrong with saying, "X said this about Y, that they are/are not terrorists", as NPOV is maintained in putting it like that. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Then all "Islamic State"s in the article will have to be changed to "The Islamic State", if you are correct - and in the al-Baghdadi article as well. I agree with "all over the world", though; "Iraq and Syria" is too narrow now. I think you have forgotten that old saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. (Think of the IRA, for example, or the Israeli terrorists led by Menachem Begin in the fight to establish Israel as a nation, or even Nelson Mandela in his early days, although "terrorist" would perhaps be too strong a word in his case.) That is why we have to have NPOV, however distasteful it may be here. The second commenter on this thread made that point, which I agreed with - but not to the extent of pussy-footing around this issue the way Misplaced Pages has been doing until now. This is all a matter of striking the right balance, and I do think this form of words that Misplaced Pages has used before, on Al-Qaeda and Hamas, and DeCausa's formulation, strike the right balance. We don't want to go overboard with this. That's my POV! --P123ct1 (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I absolutely agree that in many cases, maybe even most, care needs to be taken about assigning the term terrorist. This is clearly an exception though. Even in the Islamic world there is huge revulsion at these people and what they are doing. If you can find any RS sources offering a credible defense or refuting the designation, then by all means that should be noted. But before we start tempering the language of an article based on an alternative POV shouldn't we establish that this POV exists and enjoys some credible acceptance backed by RS sources? There is no shortage of RS sources labeling ISIS a terrorist group. Find a reasonable number of RS sources saying otherwise and we will need to take note of it in the article. But I am disinclined to give weight to a POV that probably does not enjoy any significant acceptance beyond the adherents of the group itself. There are lots of non affiliated sources that have defended HAMAS and the IRA. I have serious doubts that you will find many, if any, defending ISIS. In the absence of those kinds of sources I am forced to return again to the point I made above. On Misplaced Pages common sense is not expected to bow to guidelines. Just because the European Union or some UN commission has not issued a decree on the subject does not mean that the sun will not rise in the East tomorrow morning, or that the sky is not blue. Until credible non-affiliated RS sources can be found offering a different interpretation of ISIS, this is not an NPOV issue. Indeed pandering to a position that is not supported by said sources would be the real POV fail. For now however the sky is in fact blue, and ISIS is a terrorist organization. Suggesting otherwise strains the limits of credulity and calls into question the integrity of the project. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Some people think Satan is a nice fellow... Other people even worship him. Common sense tell us that Satan is the devil based on many reliable sources. Right?... Some people think Hitler was a saint. Ad Orientem said it best. Let someone find credible and reliable sources that say that ISIS are saints and nice guys and freedom fighters, and we can forget completely their terrorist atrocities on a daily basis and start worshiping them. Worldedixor (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You both miss the point, with respect. NPOV supports no POV, by definition. One sentence in the Lead, neutrally put - NPOV - is hardly giving weight to the idea that ISIS are not terrorists. An assertion that it does is laughable. You may have missed my last para in the edit conflict, where I said there is nothing to stop Misplaced Pages recording who said what about whom, whether pro or con, and providing sources for it, as you yourselves say. That is what NPOV entails, and in fact demands. NPOV goes right to the heart of what Misplaced Pages is about (see my comparison between annals and history books) so to say this is "not an NPOV issue" is plain wrong. Common sense has nothing to do with this, unfortunately. Common sense implies value judgments, fine for history books, but not for encyclopaedias, which are compendiums of knowledge, not collections of historical essays. I don't like it as much as you don't. Believe me, and I repeat, being NPOV about ISIS sticks in my craw as much as it does yours. --P123ct1 (talk) 01:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Please stop implying that you know better than all of us and we are missing the point. Also, no need to doubt my Arabic translation contribution. Assume Good Faith and trust my command of the Arabic language until someone fluent in Arabic tells you otherwise, just as I AGF and trust your basic understanding of the English language. For your education, POV means point of view, meaning someone's opinion or his/her subjective and/or biased point of view of ISIS. Here no one is opining. ISIS being a terrorist organization is no one's subjective point of view,it is a FACT proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are terrorists, and that has been established by a lot of evidence and many reliable sources. It does not take rocket science to tell that Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist and Mother Theresa was not a terrorist. WP:COMMONSENSE Worldedixor (talk) 06:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have failed to make you see my point and perhaps that is my fault. I agree that ISIS are terrorists by any normal common-sense standards. But they cannot be talked about that way in Misplaced Pages, for all the reasons I have given. Simple as that. As for the other point, I sincerely apologise if it looked as if I was not assuming good faith over your command of Arabic. I am just puzzled why there has been debate about what the new name is, "The Islamic State" or "Islamic State", if it is as obvious as you say it is. If you are right, you will have to put Misplaced Pages right in two articles, not one, and I wish you luck with that. There was a debate in the other article too over the name. You could start with the glaring discrepancy in the Lead, between the first reference to the name and the other references, in the first paragraph and in one of the boxes. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Please stop implying that you know better than all of us and we are missing the point. Also, no need to doubt my Arabic translation contribution. Assume Good Faith and trust my command of the Arabic language until someone fluent in Arabic tells you otherwise, just as I AGF and trust your basic understanding of the English language. For your education, POV means point of view, meaning someone's opinion or his/her subjective and/or biased point of view of ISIS. Here no one is opining. ISIS being a terrorist organization is no one's subjective point of view,it is a FACT proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are terrorists, and that has been established by a lot of evidence and many reliable sources. It does not take rocket science to tell that Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist and Mother Theresa was not a terrorist. WP:COMMONSENSE Worldedixor (talk) 06:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You both miss the point, with respect. NPOV supports no POV, by definition. One sentence in the Lead, neutrally put - NPOV - is hardly giving weight to the idea that ISIS are not terrorists. An assertion that it does is laughable. You may have missed my last para in the edit conflict, where I said there is nothing to stop Misplaced Pages recording who said what about whom, whether pro or con, and providing sources for it, as you yourselves say. That is what NPOV entails, and in fact demands. NPOV goes right to the heart of what Misplaced Pages is about (see my comparison between annals and history books) so to say this is "not an NPOV issue" is plain wrong. Common sense has nothing to do with this, unfortunately. Common sense implies value judgments, fine for history books, but not for encyclopaedias, which are compendiums of knowledge, not collections of historical essays. I don't like it as much as you don't. Believe me, and I repeat, being NPOV about ISIS sticks in my craw as much as it does yours. --P123ct1 (talk) 01:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Some people think Satan is a nice fellow... Other people even worship him. Common sense tell us that Satan is the devil based on many reliable sources. Right?... Some people think Hitler was a saint. Ad Orientem said it best. Let someone find credible and reliable sources that say that ISIS are saints and nice guys and freedom fighters, and we can forget completely their terrorist atrocities on a daily basis and start worshiping them. Worldedixor (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I absolutely agree that in many cases, maybe even most, care needs to be taken about assigning the term terrorist. This is clearly an exception though. Even in the Islamic world there is huge revulsion at these people and what they are doing. If you can find any RS sources offering a credible defense or refuting the designation, then by all means that should be noted. But before we start tempering the language of an article based on an alternative POV shouldn't we establish that this POV exists and enjoys some credible acceptance backed by RS sources? There is no shortage of RS sources labeling ISIS a terrorist group. Find a reasonable number of RS sources saying otherwise and we will need to take note of it in the article. But I am disinclined to give weight to a POV that probably does not enjoy any significant acceptance beyond the adherents of the group itself. There are lots of non affiliated sources that have defended HAMAS and the IRA. I have serious doubts that you will find many, if any, defending ISIS. In the absence of those kinds of sources I am forced to return again to the point I made above. On Misplaced Pages common sense is not expected to bow to guidelines. Just because the European Union or some UN commission has not issued a decree on the subject does not mean that the sun will not rise in the East tomorrow morning, or that the sky is not blue. Until credible non-affiliated RS sources can be found offering a different interpretation of ISIS, this is not an NPOV issue. Indeed pandering to a position that is not supported by said sources would be the real POV fail. For now however the sky is in fact blue, and ISIS is a terrorist organization. Suggesting otherwise strains the limits of credulity and calls into question the integrity of the project. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Ironically Worldedixor has hit the nail on the head. Osama bin Laden is a terrorist but we do not call him one in the lead. In his article we call Al-Qaeda a "Wahhabi extremist militant organization" and in Al-Qaeda we say it is designated as a terrorist group, we don't use terrorist as an adjective. We should treat this organisation in the same way. Dougweller (talk) 09:37, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Dougweller Have you read the Lead as it stands now? "Terrorist" is clearly there. Worldedixor was the first to put "terrorist" into the Lead, using it as an adjective. I reverted it, taking out "terrorist", giving full reasons. He reverted my edit and has put "terrorist" back in. (See Edit Summaries.) This is getting farcical. I withdraw as I do not want to engage in a childish edit-war. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:49, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've reverted him. I thought he'd agreed to stop editing, but I guess he changed his mind. We've made it clear that the organisation is considered terrorist, but as I've shown above, we don't use it as an adjective. Dougweller (talk) 11:07, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just to point out and clarify, "terrorist" was orignally put in by Worldedixor. P123ct1 reverted it. Worldedixor re-instated it. Dougweller reverted it. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 14:12, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Caliph Ibrihim under Government secion
In in bottom of the Government section is says "Caliph Ibrahim". This looks funny to me. Is there a reason it needs to be this way? Just wondering. Rightswatcher (talk) 17:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Source 1, calls him "Caliph" and Source 6&7 call it Caliph Ibrahim. Mhhossein (talk) 13:06, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Should the lowercase search term "Isis" lead to a disambiguation page?
It should be noted that on July 27, 2014, Qristopher opened a WP:RFC on this matter. Interested editors may want to weigh in there.
- I have changed the heading of this section, because its original heading didn't represent what Qristopher is actually arguing for. A. Parrot (talk) 18:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
UPDATE THE MAP PLS
There have been like two updates to the map in the last month. So, pls, update it. I'm saving all the copies of the map to my computer when a new update comes out, and I am personally monitoring the situation.
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.129.134 (talk) 18:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
ISIS YouTube video why publicise it?
Is there a good reason for giving this publicity? Dougweller (talk) 07:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Doug, are you referring to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JABN4e4YwuA because it's been removed "as a violation of YouTube's policy on violence." Until now, we have mentioned videos when they have been covered by secondary sources. I'd prefer not to start using youtube videos as sources. PhilKnight (talk) 08:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Missed its removal but I agree that we shouldn't mention videos (among other things) without good coverage elsewhere. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Just before reading this, I removed the 28 July entry in "2014 events" (which cites this clip) - " 28 July: ISIS releases Eid al-Fitr video showing graphic scenes of mass executions, as well as destruction of Shi'a tombs, battles, and parades."
- - when I saw YouTube had taken the video down. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Restored the 28 July entry with a new (RS) citation (The Telegraph). --P123ct1 (talk) 17:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Need to change name of article to just Islamic State
and other sources. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis) has reportedly declared the areas it occupies in Iraq and Syria as a new Islamic state, removing Iraq and the Levant from its name and ushering in “a new era of international jihad”.
The announcement will see Isis now simply refer to itself as The Islamic State, and the group has called on al-Qa’ida and other related militant Sunni factions operating in the region to immediately pledge their allegiance. Dougweller (talk) 10:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, not yet. Not without seeing or hearing the original "verified" Arabic announcement by ISIS. Reuters says "تسجيل لم يتسن التحقق من صحته". Worldedixor (talk) 11:04, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- The name change seems to have been a month ago., . It is mentioned in numerous sources that this was an audio statement posted on line and then translated, eg. Our info box says it called the Islamic State with footnotes, and the statement itself is an External link at the bottom of the article. A name change and a change in the lead would make all this makes sense. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I was searching for the official video referenced by Reuters. I just found it , but I did not hear the announcement by Shaikh Abou Mohammad Al Adnani about ISIS changing its name to the Islamic State. All he babbled about was shattering the borders but no name change. There is no deadline to change the title. Feel free to listen yourself and let me know if you could hear it. Worldedixor (talk) 11:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be changed to Islamic State, or rather "the Islamic State". Some governments as well as the press are calling ISIS that now. Misplaced Pages will be viewed as not keeping up with events if it does not change the name. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- OK, I see what was wrong. Reuters referenced the wrong video and wasted my time. This is the , and we can base the change of title to "Islamic State" on it assuming there is no other Islamic State in the world, something I doubt. My due diligence work is over. I will no longer participate. Worldedixor (talk) 12:10, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be changed to Islamic State, or rather "the Islamic State". Some governments as well as the press are calling ISIS that now. Misplaced Pages will be viewed as not keeping up with events if it does not change the name. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I was searching for the official video referenced by Reuters. I just found it , but I did not hear the announcement by Shaikh Abou Mohammad Al Adnani about ISIS changing its name to the Islamic State. All he babbled about was shattering the borders but no name change. There is no deadline to change the title. Feel free to listen yourself and let me know if you could hear it. Worldedixor (talk) 11:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- The name change seems to have been a month ago., . It is mentioned in numerous sources that this was an audio statement posted on line and then translated, eg. Our info box says it called the Islamic State with footnotes, and the statement itself is an External link at the bottom of the article. A name change and a change in the lead would make all this makes sense. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sadly it isn't that easy. We have Islamic state as an article, so we need a way to disambiguate it. We can't add {country} obviously. How about {unrecognised state)? Islamic state isn't busy but I did ask the last 2 editors to comment here if they have any suggestions. Dougweller (talk) 12:21, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes "The Islamic State" (the correct translation linguistically) with {unrecognized state) should uniquely define it. I would also go with "unrecognized terrorist rogue state" but that would be a little too much for the purposes on WP. Just saying that they are terrorists is enough. They are the worst kind of terrorists. Worldedixor (talk) 12:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once we can come up with a name that doesn't clash, we need to do this properly given the earlier move request which was closed as no consensus. I think we should add terrorist today per the above wording, but this is going to have to wait for the RM and that might take a week if there is disagreement. Dougweller (talk) 12:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the simplest thing would be to move this over the redirect Islamic State. As long as both have hatnotes I can't see a problem. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 14:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Some sources using the term "Islamic State". . . These are major media sources including the Voice of America. Dougweller (talk) 14:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
There were previous discussions please refer to them. elmasmelih 11:38, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, they are why I haven't pressed this more. It can wait. Dougweller (talk) 14:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Also, there are a discussions about ISIL in the Talk:List of states with limited recognition article. elmasmelih 14:27, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: procedurally closed. Discussion ongoing in the section above. Jenks24 (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State of Iraq and Syria – Per WP:COMMONNAME. ISIS is widely used these days. Political analysts and media doesn't use the term ISIL anymore Rameshnta909 (talk) 15:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
This doesn't seem appropriate given the discussion just above and I've asked the editor about it. It's now called the Islamic State. Dougweller (talk) 16:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- The term Islamic state is used only by the organisation. Media and political analysts refers to it as isis now. Rameshnta909 (talk) 17:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
ISIS stands for Islamic State of Iraq and Sham. I'm tired of discusing this. 3bdulelah (talk) 18:19, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Not the english media. Most of them use ISIS and expansion they are giving is Iraq and syria. Rameshnta909 (talk) 20:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment whatever the merits of this are, starting a move request when there is another pending (above) is a procedural issue, so I suggest withdrawing it for now. Widefox; talk 01:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
"It has at least 4,000 fighters in its ranks"? Is that a mistake?
The reference is hidden behind a paywall so I can't read it. Does this group actually have only 4000 people but somehow conquered most of two nations? I think they'd be rather outnumbered. Dream Focus 10:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- It should read "4,000 fighters in its ranks IN IRAQ" - I have corrected the text. This is what the WSJ reference says. You should be able to read that article on Google; I put that in the footnote some weeks ago. The footnote says, "(subscription required) Accessible via Google". You Google the article's title and it brings up the same article but without the paywall. This applies to several footnotes in the ISIS article. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
its aricle a lot of confusion what is the clear strength bbc clamied 10,000 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27905849 Amt000 (talk) 03:17, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Amt000 Reports vary considerably, as the information box clearly indicates. Read the footnotes in the information box for further details. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Flag
its top templet two flag its not systmatic top templeteAmt000 (talk) 02:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC
- Can you rephrase that, please? --P123ct1 (talk) 09:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- where your reviwer or admin . i am not expercined Amt000 (talk) 08:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
DAESH or DAIISH?
One of ISIS's names is the acronym, DAESH, which ISIS considers to be insulting (see "Name & name changes"). Does anyone know why? A curious reader (e.g. self) might want to know. What is DAESH an acronym of anyway? The US Department of State (see footnote #81) lists one of ISIS's names as "al-Dawla al-Islamiyya fi al-Iraq wa-sh-Sham" (it lists "Daesh" as well), so shouldn't the acronym be DAIISH, as other sources say? (e.g. Washington Post, footnote #79) --P123ct1 (talk) 20:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's arguably unwise for me to comment on this, since I'm not sure, but I believe Daʿesh is an acronym for ʾal-Dawlah ʾal-ʾIslāmīyah fī ʾal-ʿIrāq wa-ʾal-Shām, where the ʾ and the ʿ count as the "first letter" of those words. It appears to ignore all instances of ʾal, fī, and wa (just as words like "the" and "and" are usually ignored in English acronyms). I believe the ʾ (hamza) can be read as either a consonant or a long vowel, so, in the case of Daʿesh, it is being read as the a. The Sh in Shām is, naturally, one letter. I'm not sure about the e; it's clearly a dialectical pronunciation of either short a or short i; in the former case, it would have be a neutral epenthetic vowel added to make the word more pronounceable; in the latter case, I guess it would be the second sound in ʿIrāq, included for the same reason. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- IMHO I've also wondered about this, however I figured that the Arabic speaking contributors to this page know best concerning Arabic acronyms. If it is some kind of issue of bias instead of verifiable/reliable sourced statements then this needs to be discussed further. Rightswatcher (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- The sources in the footnotes (in "Name & name changes") vary - DAIISH, Da'ash and Daesh (but no DAESH, as in the Lead). Before I changed the name in "Name & name changes" to match "DAESH" in the Lead, it said "Da'ish". I couldn't find anything on the internet to help with this, except that "DAASH" is a common variant and that the acronym is currently widely used in the region to refer to ISIS. This subject has been
discussedtalked about before (see #1 on this Talk page and in Archive 1), but no conclusion was reached. The wide variation in the acronyms most probably has to do with how the Arabic is transliterated – different transliterations can be a nightmare, leading to many variants of the same Arabic word or name. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- The sources in the footnotes (in "Name & name changes") vary - DAIISH, Da'ash and Daesh (but no DAESH, as in the Lead). Before I changed the name in "Name & name changes" to match "DAESH" in the Lead, it said "Da'ish". I couldn't find anything on the internet to help with this, except that "DAASH" is a common variant and that the acronym is currently widely used in the region to refer to ISIS. This subject has been
- IMHO I've also wondered about this, however I figured that the Arabic speaking contributors to this page know best concerning Arabic acronyms. If it is some kind of issue of bias instead of verifiable/reliable sourced statements then this needs to be discussed further. Rightswatcher (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- It was originally changed by User:Tshuva right here Supersaiyen312 (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The latest change in the Lead (reverting to an earlier edit) solves nothing. It just gives one more acronym to contend with, DAISH. The "Name & name changes" mention of DAESH has not been changed, so that is just one more inconsistency in this article (see topic #29 below). --P123ct1 (talk) 20:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The confusion over the name is actually happening in other language too. The medias in French, Spanish, and German debating about what to call the group. If anyone knows how to speak Arabic here, maybe they can help translate it. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Supersaiyen312, I just want to go on record that I know a very good editor who speaks English, Arabic, French and Spanish proficiently, but that editor was shamelessly discouraged from editing this article even when flagrant inaccuracies are clearly observed. It's just not worth it. Misplaced Pages loses. Worldedixor (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- We should simply use what reliable sources use. If there are several transliterations, we might use several all with sources. It really isn't up to us to decide which transliteration to use. There isn't necessarily one correct one. Dougweller (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Supersaiyen312, I just want to go on record that I know a very good editor who speaks English, Arabic, French and Spanish proficiently, but that editor was shamelessly discouraged from editing this article even when flagrant inaccuracies are clearly observed. It's just not worth it. Misplaced Pages loses. Worldedixor (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The confusion over the name is actually happening in other language too. The medias in French, Spanish, and German debating about what to call the group. If anyone knows how to speak Arabic here, maybe they can help translate it. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The latest change in the Lead (reverting to an earlier edit) solves nothing. It just gives one more acronym to contend with, DAISH. The "Name & name changes" mention of DAESH has not been changed, so that is just one more inconsistency in this article (see topic #29 below). --P123ct1 (talk) 20:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Editor news
Technophant has been away from this page for some time now and perhaps other editors have noticed his absence. He is considering retiring from editing on Misplaced Pages owing to a topic ban he has had from editing on alternative medicine. He passes on his congratulations to the editors who have been working on the ISIS article for their efforts in improving it and says that working on this page with others been one of the best experiences he has had editing in Misplaced Pages. I would miss him on the ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi pages, as he has been a tireless contributor, always helpful to others and found many ways to improve the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 06:41, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Map - hard to understand, doesn't seem to reflect its source
I find the map hard to understand. It also doesn't seem to reflect the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 15:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The map should at least show the borders of Iraq and Syria, preferably all country borders in the region. Readers not familiar with the geography of the region will find it very hard to understand. A few key cities marked on it would not go amiss either. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's changed recently, but the map does seem to be showing the borders between countries. I will grant you that the presence of major rivers like the Euphrates on the map does make it hard to distinguish, as does the choice of colours. Gazkthul (talk) 06:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The borders are shown on the map in "2104 events", but not on the map in the Lead, which is the map readers will home in on when starting to read the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 08:40, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed the map, see my edit summary. Not only is the latest source quite out of date, the map bears almost no resemblance to it so we are misleading our readers. Dougweller (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- The borders are shown on the map in "2104 events", but not on the map in the Lead, which is the map readers will home in on when starting to read the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 08:40, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's changed recently, but the map does seem to be showing the borders between countries. I will grant you that the presence of major rivers like the Euphrates on the map does make it hard to distinguish, as does the choice of colours. Gazkthul (talk) 06:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
The name Islamic State
All the major newspapers call it now "Islamic State": See Google News for Islamic State --2A01:E35:8B2F:7630:A1C3:E987:D9F:79D3 (talk) 18:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. We need to start a new discussion on the move to rename. Supersaiyen312 (talk) 18:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The decision is urgent. The obvious confusion in this article is making Misplaced Pages look very foolish, with one box saying Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and another saying Islamic State with caliphate (the latest revert has caused this), and with some of the article calling ISIS ISIS and later parts calling it the Islamic State. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I smell a sock-puppet. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Supersaiyen312 (talk) 22:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just to point out, the Arabic version of Misplaced Pages is still calling it the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". And so is the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Russian versions still calling it "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". On the other hand, the German and French versions have switched to "Islamic State". The majority of other inter-wikis seems the be calling it "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". Supersaiyen312 (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Good sleuthing. All I can say is that until it is decided what to call it, the article must remain consistent. People coming in and half-changing it are not helping Misplaced Pages's reputation. There are thousands of people looking at this article every day (see statistics under "Page information" in the left-hand column here) and we have to remember this. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- We shouldn't pay attention to what other Wikipedias do. We follow the sources. Others may have different ways of working. Dougweller (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Dougweller. It's the media's and general public's choice of name that matters, not other Wikipedias. The other Wikis should use the name that is used by reliable sources. The BBC, The Mirror and plenty of other media agencies refers to them as the Islamic State. --92.232.49.38 (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- We shouldn't pay attention to what other Wikipedias do. We follow the sources. Others may have different ways of working. Dougweller (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Good sleuthing. All I can say is that until it is decided what to call it, the article must remain consistent. People coming in and half-changing it are not helping Misplaced Pages's reputation. There are thousands of people looking at this article every day (see statistics under "Page information" in the left-hand column here) and we have to remember this. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I smell a sock-puppet. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The decision is urgent. The obvious confusion in this article is making Misplaced Pages look very foolish, with one box saying Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and another saying Islamic State with caliphate (the latest revert has caused this), and with some of the article calling ISIS ISIS and later parts calling it the Islamic State. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Treat the "Islamic State" as an empire?
Should Misplaced Pages treat the "Islamic State" as an empire, and not just an organization? Specifically, I think the article should include information on the population, geography, and economy of the territory they control. Readers don't get a sense of how many people are under the control of ISIS at the moment. Every war machine relies on the civilian economy to some extent, so the size of population and economy is important to understand ISIS's power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.169.126.56 (talk) 10:07, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- No. There is actually no way of being certain about any of this. The population is moving about, they are wrecking economies, and boundaries are changing. Dougweller (talk) 12:40, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Dougweller. The use of the term Empire could be possible in the future, but as of now ISIS/ISIL doesn't match the criteria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epistance (talk • contribs) 23:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Population figures
Above I said we shouldn't include them, but I see they've just been added. Besides the fact I don't understand why there is text about an April estimate with a source that doesn't say April, I'm still not convinced that because one source says six million living "under their watch" we should start putting population figures here. I realise others may disagree which is why I haven't reverted. Dougweller (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- And the same paper mentions an exodus of hundreds of thousands. - hard to know how many people are "under its watch" with such population movements. Dougweller (talk) 21:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Requested move 8 August 2014
 | The request to rename this article to Islamic State has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant → Islamic State – The last completed move request is at and was closed as no consensus. It is now over a month since that move request was raised people are making changes to the article that don't reflect the article title. Many sources still use the current name (although some of those use the new name but mention an old name) but many others use just "Islamic State". We need to come to some sort of decision even if it is to keep the current name. Please note that "The Islamic State" would need clear consensus among those reliable sources that use "Islamic State" and that translation issues do not apply, we go by what the English sources use. Dougweller (talk) 13:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note to anyone closing this. The discussion started here on the 8th but due to something I did wrong with the template the RfC wasn't procedurally opened until today. Dougweller (talk) 16:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Support
- Islamic State, without "the", for reasons set out below. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Oppose
- Keep as is "The Islamic State" and "Islamic State" should redirect to caliphate or islamic state -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 05:27, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep the current name. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 16:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- oppose; per 65.94.169.222, for now "Islamic state" has the far more common meaning of an Islamic state, whether 'state' is capitalised or not; the additional 'of Iraq and the Levant' is probably the best way to disambiguate it. If the group's still around and still has the same name in a few months then it might be the primary topic, but it's unclear how likely that is.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 16:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Strong oppose move to Islamic State, since treating this possible transient political grouping as the primary meaning is very problematic, other titles might be worth considering, but inclined to leave it at the status quo until some issues become clearer. PatGallacher (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep as is What something is, and what that thing bombastically claims to be, can be different things. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Alternatives
- Support
"The Islamic State":I know you are not keen on quibbles about the Arabic, Dougweller, but for what it is worth, the title in Arabic shows a "the" in the script. (I could demonstrate if needed.) So I am for "The Islamic State."--P123ct1 (talk) 10:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC) - Support "Islamic State (organization)" because I think it's a good compromise to rename this article with the new official name of the organization ("Islamic State", "al-Dawlah al-ʾIslāmiyyah" in romanized Arabic) without create a confusion with Islamic state. In Google News we find 4,560 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" 6,770 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria" and 7,700,000 results for "Islamic State". The new reliable sources (not only from US) use "Islamic State", Al Jazeera, The Time of India, The Jakarta Post, I24 News, Washington Post, The Guardian, The Wall Street Journal, Huffington Post, USA Today, Los Angeles Time, Fox News, Reuters, Ria Novosti, The Independent. --Monsieur Fou (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Move to ISIS, per CNN, Fox News, New York Times, CBS News. New York Daily News, Times of London and Huffington Post. Those are all headlines published in the last 24 hours. Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 09:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support move to Islamic State (organization) as per Monsieur Fou as a good compromise between article confusion and current "no so accurate" article name. ~Technophant (talk) 23:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
Sorry, I didn't follow the previous discussion and am confused by the wording of this one. Do you propose renaming Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant to The Islamic State? The article's lead now begins: "The Islamic State (IS) … also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS)." All other things being equal, if The Islamic State is the group's official name, renaming our article would make sense. However, all other things are not equal. Last night at the White House, delivering a 1,332-word prepared statement explaining authorization of two operations in Iraq—targeted airstrikes and humanitarian airdrops—President Obama referred eight times to "the terrorist group ISIL" but not once to The Islamic State. Have the preponderance of reliable sources switched to The Islamic State? If you could somehow demonstrate that, your proposal would carry more weight. As is, it seems premature. Since POTUS hasn't adopted the change, we probably ought to wait until the sand stops shifting. JohnValeron (talk) 17:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since the US Government called it ISIL when most of the world was calling it ISIS and now are calling it IS, it could be a long wait. (For non-Americans: see the Wiki article POTUS for what this is.) --P123ct1 (talk) 20:04, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Until a decision is made, the article ought to be consistent. How acceptable is it to have one name in the first infobox and another name in the second one? And how acceptable is it to hive off some of the group's former names - still very widely used, especially DAESH, its common name in the region - into a small-print note at the end of the article (the latest edit)? --P123ct1 (talk) 20:23, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is what I am trying to settle. And I am definitely not suggesting "The Islamic State" as an alternative, the alternative suggested is "Islamic State". POTUS isn't the determining factor here. Dougweller (talk) 21:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- A STABLE temporary fix is needed in the meantime for the Lead and the boxes. There have been too many back and forth reverts, leaving the article contradicting itself each time. Not good for Misplaced Pages's image. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is what I am trying to settle. And I am definitely not suggesting "The Islamic State" as an alternative, the alternative suggested is "Islamic State". POTUS isn't the determining factor here. Dougweller (talk) 21:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Until a decision is made, the article ought to be consistent. How acceptable is it to have one name in the first infobox and another name in the second one? And how acceptable is it to hive off some of the group's former names - still very widely used, especially DAESH, its common name in the region - into a small-print note at the end of the article (the latest edit)? --P123ct1 (talk) 20:23, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
As for "The Islamic State", the issue is WP:Commonname which is clear about this:"it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." And so far no one has come up with any arguments based on sources. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Apologies, I overlooked WP:Commonname. On other pages about name changes, people have drawn up useful statistics about media usage. I don't know how that is done, but that would be the best way to find out which version is most frequently used now. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
What do you think about "Islamic State (organization)"? It's the true name without ambiguity with islamic state and it's OK with the reliable sources that use "Islamic State". In the French version we have switched to fr:État islamique (organisation).--Monsieur Fou (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- See Google news for Islamic State. All the major newspaper use now "Islamic State". There is only 4,560 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant", 6,770 results for "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria", but 7,700,000 results for "Islamic State".--Monsieur Fou (talk) 09:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I googled the following to see what names they have been using in the past seven days or so —
- The Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, The Economist, The Spectator, Financial Times, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, TIME, Al-Ahram (Egypt), Middle East Eye, BBC News, CNN, NBC, Aljazeera, Al Arabiya, Reuters, Associated Press and Agence France-Presse
— and with the exception of The New York Times and Al Arabiya, they are all now calling ISIS either "Islamic State" or "the Islamic State", with a few of them using the new name and "ISIS". I can provide links if required, though they are easy to google. (None of them call it "The Islamic State", unless at the beginning of a sentence.) That is a big change from only three weeks ago, when most were mainly using "ISIS". I therefore think Islamic State (IS), without "the", should be the new title. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:48, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. We already have that one. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, that's a different article. At the moment we actually do have a redirect Islamic State which redirects to Islamic state, but we can fix that. We've discussed this above. We have ways of disambiguating. Dougweller (talk) 13:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Search "The Islamic State". You will find less entries but more used to describe this terrorist organization. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 13:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Discard anything where 'The' is the first word of a sentence. Although today's Guardian article starts a sentence with just "Islamic State". Then remove any where 'the' isn't the first word and isn't in upper case. It's really not that easy to search. Dougweller (talk) 15:22, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Search "The Islamic State". You will find less entries but more used to describe this terrorist organization. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 13:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, that's a different article. At the moment we actually do have a redirect Islamic State which redirects to Islamic state, but we can fix that. We've discussed this above. We have ways of disambiguating. Dougweller (talk) 13:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Nope. We already have that one. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The official name is Islamic State, all other articles about an organization are named with their official name. For example, the article The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't named Mormon Church.--Monsieur Fou (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Different media organizations are using different names for IS. even Obama used to call it ISIL and now he uses Isis. as no common name exist. Misplaced Pages should use the right name and call it Islamic State (IS) 3bdulelah (talk) 20:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- We use the name used by most reliable English sources. Dougweller (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
@Clodhopper Deluxe:Headlines are not written by the journalist who wrote the story. Your first link says "He said the step was taken to defend U.S. personnel in the city of Irbil and protect religious minorities facing what he called a "potential act of genocide" from the Islamic State, the extremist group most recently known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)." So it uses "Islamic State" making it clear it was ISIS. Your link to the Huffington Post also calls it the "Islamic State". So does your Fox News link "Obama announced action against the Islamic State". Dougweller (talk) 20:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I almost wish IS had hired an English speaking publicist or marketing specialist to help the English speaking world understand what the proper name to call the group is. This would have saved us Wikipedians and world a lot of confusion. In business speak this is called rebranding. 21:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- They really don't need to. The translation of the formal Arabic name for the group is "the Islamic State". If you compare the Arabic script, you can see there is a clear difference in the Arabic for "Islamic state" دولة اسلامية and "the Islamic State" الدولة الإسلامية (compare this second one to the Arabic script in the first line of the Lead, it is the same). Arabic script reads from right to left, and I believe the two extra strokes to the far right in the second one indicate "al", which is "the" in English. Interesting, but irrelevant, as we have to settle for the name most commonly used by reliable sources. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- P123ct1, well maybe not now but when we had the debate whether to call it Islamic State in/of Iraq and Syria/Levant/Sham/Shaam (ISIS or ISIL) then it would have really helped. ~Technophant (talk) 23:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- They really don't need to. The translation of the formal Arabic name for the group is "the Islamic State". If you compare the Arabic script, you can see there is a clear difference in the Arabic for "Islamic state" دولة اسلامية and "the Islamic State" الدولة الإسلامية (compare this second one to the Arabic script in the first line of the Lead, it is the same). Arabic script reads from right to left, and I believe the two extra strokes to the far right in the second one indicate "al", which is "the" in English. Interesting, but irrelevant, as we have to settle for the name most commonly used by reliable sources. --P123ct1 (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Technical help
There is a table of the countries which have declared ISIS as a terror group, this is incomplete. I tried to edit it using the references from the top (Canada, Australia, UN and Saudi) but somehow it deleted everything after the table, even though I was only editing the section! Can somebody help? '''tAD''' (talk) 21:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Please create a list, COUNTRY : REFERENCE/CITATION Twillisjr (talk) 12:21, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Someone has completed the table now. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
New Players
According to this article, http://gulfnews.com/news/region/syria/pkk-joins-battle-against-isil-1.1360183, the PKK has been fighting ISIL in Syria since about July 10, and about 1000 PKK fights in Syria - http://www.voanews.com/content/turkish-kurds-want-ankara-to-declare-stance-on-isil/1965256.html. Enemies are becoming friends out of necessity. See http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/forming-the-anti-isil-front.aspx?PageID=238&NID=70169&NewsCatID=466. Legacypac (talk) 01:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
WP:OWN to new editors
Some contributors feel possessive about material they have contributed to Misplaced Pages. No one has the right to act as though he or she is the owner of a particular article. Worldedixor (talk) 08:55, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, since you've replaced this, I agree that you are right that possessiveness is a bad thing.. But I don't see that there is a problem here and I feel that rather than make vague statements like this you should be pointing out such problems that you see to the editors you have in mind on their talk pages.
- I also note that you seem to be at 3RR on a 1RR page. Whatever you may feel about WP:OWN, you should not be doing this. The whole point of the 1RR restriction is to avoid edit warring. Dougweller (talk) 11:47, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I ask you not to repeatedly violate WP Rules and gang up on me via e-mails to "remove the joy of editing Misplaced Pages". The record shows what you did after you misconstrued "once again" what I said and after I provided well sourced edits to the article. Everyone was editing peacefully. Do not just remove my edits and falsely accuse me of stuff, and do not use bureaucracy as a pretext to make unwanted contact and instigate me. As for explaining WP rules, I have my way of doing so.Worldedixor (talk) 18:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Unrecognised state
Clicked on the link and noted that this is not at the link List of states with limited recognition (although it was very briefly). It isn't sourced and appears to be original research. Please don't replace this without discussion. Start an RfC if you wish, this is a major claim and needs clear justification. Dougweller (talk) 12:43, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. Those are a bunch of savage and evil terrorists not a state.Worldedixor (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Worldedixor, this may be a talk page, but that doesn't entitle you to say whatever you please, no matter how inflammatory or disruptive. Your personal opinions are your own, but they don't belong here. I have already notified you of WP:SCWGS, and in my view, the edit above is sanctionable. I'm not going to sanction you, but if you repeat it or anything similar, you risk being blocked per the community sanctions applicable to this page.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Bbb23. Isn't it true that Dougweller "e-mailed" you? Also, how can what I said on the article talk page be sanctionable? ALL my edits on the article were well sourced and made in good faith. Please specify the WP rule that you are basing your contact with me that does not allow me to explain (on the talk page not in the article) that I do not believe that ISIS is a state and like many CIVILIZED countries beleieve, I strongly believe that they are terrorists? I understand your view and respect your right to your view but your contact with me, when warranted, should be based on WP rules. Worldedixor (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Worldedixor: See WP:NOTFORUM. Even on talk pages we strive to keep our personal opinions about the article's subject to a minimum. If I said "X is a blowhard" on X's article talk page I would be admonished. --NeilN 19:18, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks NeilN . Will scrutinize and respond. Worldedixor (talk) 19:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- OK, NeilN, I understand… While my intent and my edit history on this article and its talk page were certainly not meant to engage in forum chat, I can see how my choice of words to explain that ISIS is not a state but rather terrorists could be "selectively" interpreted by someone as a forum chat. In any case, what took place today after misconstruing "once again" my edits, transcend this small matter. Thanks anyway. I appreciate it. Worldedixor (talk) 20:28, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks NeilN . Will scrutinize and respond. Worldedixor (talk) 19:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Worldedixor: See WP:NOTFORUM. Even on talk pages we strive to keep our personal opinions about the article's subject to a minimum. If I said "X is a blowhard" on X's article talk page I would be admonished. --NeilN 19:18, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Bbb23. Isn't it true that Dougweller "e-mailed" you? Also, how can what I said on the article talk page be sanctionable? ALL my edits on the article were well sourced and made in good faith. Please specify the WP rule that you are basing your contact with me that does not allow me to explain (on the talk page not in the article) that I do not believe that ISIS is a state and like many CIVILIZED countries beleieve, I strongly believe that they are terrorists? I understand your view and respect your right to your view but your contact with me, when warranted, should be based on WP rules. Worldedixor (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Worldedixor, this may be a talk page, but that doesn't entitle you to say whatever you please, no matter how inflammatory or disruptive. Your personal opinions are your own, but they don't belong here. I have already notified you of WP:SCWGS, and in my view, the edit above is sanctionable. I'm not going to sanction you, but if you repeat it or anything similar, you risk being blocked per the community sanctions applicable to this page.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. Those are a bunch of savage and evil terrorists not a state.Worldedixor (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Barzani: we are fighting a terrorist state not terrorist group. here 3bdulelah (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
"Genocide"
Dougweller has advised that the word "genocide", like "terrorist", should not be used in this article without sources to back it up. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've been out the loop for a while, however I
Agree in principle. - Technophant (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Category Islamic states
I've had my revert for the day, but this doesn't belong here. Dougweller (talk) 16:52, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Dougweller. I don't see it. Is there another spelling, or has it been removed already? -- Brangifer (talk) 20:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I removed it. --NeilN 20:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 20:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I removed it. --NeilN 20:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Suggested split of Al Furqan Media as own article
I've had an article in my userspace now moved to User:Technophant/Al Furqan Media where anybody who is wishing to help develop this article can edit. Even though Al Furqan Media is an integral part of IS/ISIS, it is its own separate entity, notable, and has enough written about it to develop into a separate article. ~Technophant (talk) 22:11, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The Long War Journal as a reliable source
I took a look at the Reliable Source Noticeboard for the latest discussion of this website as a source. It has been used in this article quite a bit. The consensus is: "it should be quoted with attribution" due to its potential POV issues here. ~Technophant (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Competence Matters
Incompetence to read and fathom a well researched and "abundantly clear" reliable source should not be used as an excuse to affix a disruptive "not in citation given" in a 1RR article. It's like saying you cannot add a "well researched, sourced and verifiable content" that says "The Islamic State had advanced to within 30 km of Erbil" with a reliable source whose "title" CLEARLY says "الدولة الإسلامية على بعد 30 كيلومترا من إربيل". This is getting too old already. Worldedixor (talk) 01:25, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Worldedixor, I thought you said you above you were going to stop editing this article? *shrugs* Can you give a "diff" link for the edits you are questioning above? ~Technophant (talk) 01:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
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