Talk:Irataba - Misplaced Pages

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Irataba has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
February 15, 2015	Good article nominee	Listed
March 6, 2015	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
April 15, 2015	Featured article candidate	Not promoted

Current status: Good article

Irataba received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Indigenous peoples of North America GA‑class

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GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Irataba/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 23:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Taking this review as requested - should have this to you within a day or two ☯ Jaguar ☯ 23:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. Has an appropriate reference section:

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Initial comments

"but the Mohave did not believe his fantastic story" - sounds a little informal, I think this can be cut safely

I agree; removed. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The lead summarizes the article well (an important part of the GA criteria), but I notice the only section missing from the lead is content from the Rose-Baley Party massacre section?

Agreed and done. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"The Mohave Desert stretches" - why not Mojave Desert?

Both Mojave and Mohave are acceptable spellings of the word, but I've chosen to use Mohave consistently throughout. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"Irataba excelled at archery, hunting game such as rabbits and deer in the mountains to the east" - doesn't make grammatical sense here. Was there meant to be something after "hunting game(s)"?

Hunting is a verb here, and game is a noun that refers to rabbits and deer. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"Ives was leading an expedition to the Grand Canyon in a steamship named the Explorer" - should Explorer be italicized if it's the name of a ship? I could be wrong as in some cases it's different

I think you're right, so I've italicized them. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"And so, with his services no longer needed, he returned home to the Mohave" - is this referring to the Mojave Desert?

I've clarified this as Mohave villages. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The opening of the second paragraph in the Turning point section sounds like a story! "The sub-chiefs remained silent, and so Cairook continued" - this part could be re-worded slightly

I agree; fixed. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"they burned his body, hut, and belongings according to tradition, "as was proper"" - what is "as was proper" meaning here?

Clarified with "for a Mohave head chief". Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Jaguar, I believe I've now addressed your above concerns. Thanks for the excellent review, and please let me know if there is anything else I should do regarding the GAN. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

References

No dead links

On hold

This is a very nice article; well written, comprehensive and also well sourced. I couldn't find anything wrong with the references and the prose issues I mentioned above were only relatively minor. I also apologise for leaving this review late as I'm having troubles with my PC, so I should have the other one to you by tomorrow. Anyway, I'll leave on hold for at least the standard seven days (although it won't need that) until they have all been addressed. If you have any questions please let me know. Thanks! ☯ Jaguar ☯ 22:29, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Close - promoted

Thank you for your improvements made! I'm confident that this article now meets the GA criteria so I'll promote this. I should have the other review complete shortly ☯ Jaguar ☯ 18:16, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The article would benefit from an IPA for Irataba. While I think I know how that is pronounced, cross lingual currents make it only a guess. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's pronounced phonetically, but I totally agree that we need it described properly, but I have no idea how to do it. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

There are IPA people in wikipedia. And they need familiarity with Mohave language. I don't know who fits the bill. What if we post the concern on the Mohave article? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:44, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Given that it doesn't seem that his actual Mohave name was Irataba it doest make much sense to IPA it, any approximation would basically be the English pronunciation. You need a source that explicitly states what his actual Mohave name was.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:51, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Good point. Although it still isn't a common English language name, and these couple be long or short "A"s, for example. What do you suggest? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Basically I think that with that many different versions of the name in the Sherer source basically we have to say that we don't know his name or how it was actually pronounced in Mohave.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:01, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

What is the source for the form eecheeyara tav? That would be the source to go to. I have looked through Kroeber's description of Mojave phonetics, but it doesnt give any useful hints of how to parse that name phonetically. It might well be something like but it could also be , and it is impossible to tell without better sources for the name and its meaning. Unfortunately it seems that not much is written on Mojave language in recent times.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Sherer, who lived amongst the Mohave, quotes their Tribal Orator, Atalk hear, who said the name is a combination of two words: eeecheyara, which means bird, and tav, which means good or beautiful. I assume the pronunciations are phonetic. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately that assumption doesnt make sense. We dont have the pronunciation, we have Sherer's letters, and unless they gave us a phonetic transcription in standard notation as well, we have to guess about what sounds they meant those letters to represent. For example we don't know if ee means the long i vowel in "beet" or a long "e" as in "bet". It could be either. Secondly we cant assume that Sherer, unless they were a trained linguist was actually able to fully distinguish the sounds in the Mohave language correctly. Usually anthropologists are not trained linguists and their transcriptions are not accurate but simply represent the way the sounds sound to the untrained anglophone ear. This means that any attempt at converting Sherers transcription to IPA will be OR, based on our guesswork. In short the way it is now, where we simply cite Sherer's transcription without attempting to interpret it phonetically is the best approach.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like the best course of action here is to exclude any attempts at IPAs that might rely on WP:OR. Is that accurate? I'll take another look for reliably sourced pronunciations, but I'm fairly certain that none exist, at least not in any of the sources that I've looked at so far. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, unless we can find some source that gives us enough information about Mohave phonetics and the specific words in question to be able to make a transcription that doesnt rely primarily on our own guesswork, I think that is best.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for turning over a rock and engendering all this. It was meant only as A Modest Proposal, and was my reaction to the rather obvious hole. Little did I know. Fools rush in ... 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No worries, it would indeed be great to include. Just not really possible given the lack of sources. This is not uncommon when dealing with names and words in poorly documented indigenous languages.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I second Maunus; there is no need to apologize! We needed to discuss this, and the sooner the better, so thanks for raising this valid point! Rationalobserver (talk) 17:16, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Reservation

It seems to me upon reading Sherer 1966 that one of the most important aspects of Yara Tav's legacy for his own people is the fact that he negotiated the establishment of the reservation and led a large group of Mohaves away from their traditional lands and onto the reservation. The fact that another group stayed behind led by Homoseh Quahote refusing to enter the reservation caused the split between the two groups. I.e. in political terms Yara Tav was pursuing a collaboration/appeasement policy relative to the US army and state, whereas the Fort Mojave group were reluctant to do so. This political difference in how the Mojave leaders reacted to white intrusion is the origin of the division of contemporary Mojaves into the Fort Mojave and the Colorado River Indian Reservation groups, which can then be traced directly to Yara Tav's attitudes and actions. That division, is something that one would think could merit its own section, and Sherer 1966 provides the information needed to do so. It also would require more detail on the relation between Homoseh Quahote and Yara Tav, the circumstances of the formers "abdication" as Aha macave yaltanack "head chief" (but not as Aha macave pipatahon "Head chieftain") and Yara Tav's precise leadership title. The significance of the titles is that otherwise it is difficult to understand why some Mojave would stay behind with Homoseh Quahote after he had "abdicated", but since he continued to be the head chieftain, with a more significant moral authority than Yara Tav's primarily political authority seems to have been key in the split.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Reread the first 6 pages. The date and circumstances of Homoseh Quahote's accession are unknown, and there is only one known description of him, which is what the tribal elder told Sherer, so there is no more reliable info about him than that. Is there? Rationalobserver (talk) 21:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Accession? You mean abdication no? And the point is that it was his abdication that led to Yara Tavs becoming head chief office, while Homoseh Quahote remained head chieftain with the main moral responsibility and authority for the tribe. I dont see how your comment relates to the query I am making. Namely that the article does not sufficiently describe the political process that led to the creation of the Colorado River and Ft. Mojave reservations, and the split of the Mojave nation.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You're making a mistake about how Sherer uses the term abdicate. Cairook was head chief, and when he died the people elected Irataba as head chief when they could have chosen Homoseh Quahote who bowed out. Sherer says he is all but a mystery; that's my point. There is no more to learn about him. It's one description from an elder made 50 years or more after Homoseh Quahote died. What more can we say about him? Rationalobserver (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I dont know of any possible use of the word abdicate to mean its own opposite, accede. I have not requested any information about Homoseh quahotes accession which Sherer says is unknown. But she gives a fair bit of information about him, including the fact that he was Aha macave pipatahon which she describes as the highest leadership. And that he acted as head chief in 1859 (not Cairook) is established by Gwegwi nuor, an eye witness. This is further corroborated by the statement that in 1860 or 1861 he abdicated the office of head chief, while retaining the chieftainship.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right; I just reread that piece, and there are good reasons to question this chronology, as it's not clear cut. The northern group definitely stayed with Homoseh Quahote, who is at times referred to as head chief by soldiers at the fort, but does Sherer come to any usable conclusions? As you said, Irataba really wasn't a chief anyway, that's an English word. I'll take another look and see if more detail could be added, but I'm pretty tired right now after a long day. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:21, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I am not sure what Cairook was exactly in Mohave terms, but it seems likely that since the Huttoh Pah had 5 chiefs that he was one of them, and tha Yara Tav was another.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll bet you're right, but that's OR, isn't it? Rationalobserver (talk) 23:03, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

My special agent OR says maybe Cairook and Homoseh quahote are the same person, and Cairook never died at prison, but was released five years later and took back over as head chief. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

It would be OR to include yes. I think your last suspicion is unlikely to be correct. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Me too, but it sure is fun! And there are accounts that misname Homoseh quahote as someone else, so its not impossible that he is a composite figure. Why did the US army think Cairook was head chief, but Sherer never mentioned him? And why is there only one description of Homoseh quahote if he was head chief before and after Irataba? Rationalobserver (talk) 23:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is unsatisfactory not to be able to resolve that question.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

According to Sherer, Seck-a-hoot did attend the meeting with Hoffman, but was not named as head chief, so I think your assumption that Cairook was one chief, or maybe the main chief, of the Huttoh pah clan, and early explorers mistook him for a Mohave head chief. Maunus, I've added a sub-section with more detail on the founding of the Colorado River Indian Reservation (). What do you think? Do we need more detail than that, or are you satisfied that this element of the story has now been adequately covered? Rationalobserver (talk) 17:53, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I want to have a look at the two sources Victoria presented on my talkpage, but I wint have a chance untill wednesday. If I find anything I'd like toadd I'll do so myself. Thanks for your work!·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the excellent addition you've made to the reservation section, Maunus. I see now what you meant about the lack of political context. Beautiful work! Rationalobserver (talk) 16:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Last Head chief

As far as I can read Sherer, Yara Tav was not the last independent head chief of the Mojave, he replaced Homoseh Quahote as head chief in 1861 (not as head chieftain), but Homoseh Quahote later retook the office for the Ft. Mojave group, while Yara Tav was head chief of the Colorado River group. So no, Yara Tav was not the last independent head chief. In a certain way he was the first dependent head chief, since he was the one who led his group onto the Colorado River Reservation. Specifically Sherer states on page 12 "By 1870, Homoseh quahote was referred to as the head chief of the tribe and Yara tav as the chief of the Mojaves on the reservation". Also it is not clear what is meant exactly by "independent", even on the reservation the Mojave leaders continued to be leaders of an independent nation. And they both had successors in their offices as head chief of their respective groups. So I think a different definition sentence would be in order. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Sherer is going off letters written by soldiers who were at times confused, and at times she is also confused, but yes, there were and still are two bands of Mohave. Anyway, I changed it back to one of the last to be safe (). Rationalobserver (talk) 21:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

But what is meant by "independent"?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Ask Deveroux and Woodward, because the term comes from them. I'm just doing the best I can with scant sourcing. I wish there were more sources and more people willing to add a paragraph or two, if they are needed. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I think this fleshes it out pretty well (), but let me know if we want more detail. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that works, yes.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:57, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

But what is meant by "independent"?. That's a good question. I think all it means is that Irataba was the last head chief of the Mohave before a fort was built and a reservation system started. By 1865, both were in place and the independent Mohave were no more. At least I think that's what Devereux meant, and I'm pretty sure it came from him originally, as Woodward quoted him. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it was good that we got rid of both the "last" and "independent" - I would imagine that Mohave people on both reservations may agree.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:57, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Quoting Irataba via Chooksa homar's 1902 account to Kroeber

Maunus, we've discussed this at my talk, but I wanted it to be here for the record. I want to be sure that it's okay to quote Irataba via Chooksa homar's 1902 account to Kroeber. We have a couple of quotes in the article now that were first recorded 43 years after the events they describe. Is it acceptable to present a direct quote from Irataba that wasn't recorded until four decades after the fact, and is in-line attribution all we need to include to retain scholarly presentation? Rationalobserver (talk) 18:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

My reasoning is this: Chooksa homar was an eyewitness, he actually understood Mohave, his recollections may not be verbatim but they provide a unique perspective on how Mohave people remembered Irataba and his speeches and actions after his death. We quote and cite dozens of white officials and scholars regarding their views and opinions about Irataba, most of them never met him and wouldnt have understood what he was sayin if they had. Surely the Mohave perspective as presented by Chooksa homar is indispensable for giving a full view of who Irataba was. Most of the concerns I have seen expressed aout the source were based on misunderstandings about its publicaiton history or provenance. For example, I agree we shouldnt cite Frank Waters or other sources that may pretend to represrnt Iratabas words without attributing them to a direct source such as Chooksa homar or another eyewitness, but we should use the Kroeber and Kroeber source directly and attribute the words to Chooksa homar's recollections of what Irataba said. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:06, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks, Maunus. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Posting some sources here

In February I captured these 15 sources on Jstor to use for this page. Since a formal interaction ban is now being requested between myself and Rationalobserver and an informal one has been in place since that time, posting all here now. Some are being used, some not. Some are useful, some would maybe be better for other pages, but dumping it all. Victoria (tk) 21:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

"The Oatman Divorce Case:] Tribal Atrocities Alleged in Divorce Suit Against Wealthy Mohave Indian Outdoes Fiction" Arizoniana. Vol. 2, No. 1 (SPRING 1961) , pp. 29-30Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41700807

Wallace, W. J. "The Dream in Mohave Life". The Journal of American Folklore. Vol. 60, No. 237 (Jul. - Sep., 1947) , pp. 252-258 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/536378

Kroeber, Clifton B. "The Mohave as Nationalist, 1859-1874". Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society. Vol. 109, No. 3 (Jun. 15, 1965) , pp. 173-180 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/986130

Avillo, Philip J. "Mohave People by Fulsom Charles Scrivner" (Review) Montana: The Magazine of Western History. Vol. 21, No. 2 (Spring, 1971) , p. 78 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4517576

Stewart, Kenneth M., The Aboriginal Territory of the Mohave Indians. Ethnohistory. Vol. 16, No. 3 (Summer, 1969) , pp. 257-276 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/481587

Temple, Judy Nolte. "The Blue Tattoo: The Life of Olive Oatman by Margot Mifflin". (Review). Western American Literature. Vol. 44, No. 3 (Fall 2009) , pp. 291-292 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/43022746

Turner, Jim. "THE BLUE TATTOO: The Life of Olive Oatman by Margot Mifflin". (Review). The Journal of Arizona History. Vol. 51, No. 3 (autumn 2010) , pp. 280-281 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41697305

Conrad, David E. "The Whipple Expedition in Arizona 1853-1854". Arizona and the West. Vol. 11, No. 2 (Summer, 1969) , pp. 147-178 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40167518

Putzi, Jennifer. "Capturing Identity in Ink: The Captivities of Olive Oatman". Western American Literature. Vol. 39, No. 2 (Summer 2004) , pp. 176-199 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/43022304

Elsasser, Albert B., "Mohave Indian Images and the Artist Maynard Dixon". The Journal of California Anthropology. Vol. 4, No. 1 (SUMMER 1977) , pp. 60-79 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25748333

Sherer, Lorraine M. "Great Chieftains of the Mojave Indians". Southern California Quarterly.Vol. 48, No. 1 (MARCH 1966) , pp. 1-35 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41169985

Krober, A.L. "Preliminary Sketch of the Mohave Indians". American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 4, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1902) , pp. 276-285 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/659222

Stewart, Kenneth M. "A Brief History of the Mohave Indians since 1850". Kiva. Vol. 34, No. 4 (Apr., 1969) , pp. 219-236 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/30247092

Hunter, Gene Leslie. "The Mojave Expedition of 1858-59". Arizona and the West. Vol. 21, No. 2 (Summer, 1979) , pp. 137-156 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40168775

Burd, Gene. "Disaster at the Colorado: Beale's Wagon Road and the First Emigrant Party by Charles W. Baley". (Review). "Utopian Studies.Vol. 13, No. 2 (2002) , pp. 102-103 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20718473
Victoria (tk) 21:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

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