Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Everyking (talk | contribs) at 12:38, 26 June 2015 (→Arbitration enforcement, the limits of WP:INVOLVED, and (inevitably) Eric Corbett). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:AN
• WP:ANB

• For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
• To request review of an administrator's action or other use of advanced permissions, use Misplaced Pages:Administrative action review
• If you are new, try the Teahouse instead.
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead, follow the instructions on Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight.
• For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent.
• Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here.
• Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• If you want to challenge the closure of a request for comment, use {{RfC closure review}}

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search)

Template:Active editnotice

This page has an administrative backlog that requires the attention of willing administrators. Please replace this notice with {{no admin backlog}} when the backlog is cleared.

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Misplaced Pages:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Archives

Index no archives yet (create)

This page has archives. Sections older than 366 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

• WP:CR
• WP:RFCL
• WP:ANRFC

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old
• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers/Log
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 35 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 33 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 102 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 81 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 72 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia#RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

(Initiated 70 days ago on 8 November 2024), RFC expired weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 56 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Thomas Sewell (neo-Nazi)#RfC on the Inclusion of Guard Actions and Court Findings on Motivations

(Initiated 31 days ago on 17 December 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice and the last comment was a few days ago. Can we get an independent close please. TarnishedPath 22:50, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Estado Novo (Portugal)#RFC Should the Estado Novo be considered fascist?

(Initiated 9 days ago on 8 January 2025) RfC opened last month, and was re-opened last week, but hasn't received further discussion. Outcome clear and unlikely to change if it were to run the full 30 days. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 00:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Does this need a close? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would have just closed it myself, but I don't exactly feel comfortable doing so since I've responded and have a bias about how it should close. Not opposed to just letting it expire, though. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 23:23, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it should just be left to expire. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 28 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 28 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 31#Category:Disambig-Class Star Trek pages

(Initiated 16 days ago on 31 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1#Category:Category-Class 20th Century Studios pages of NA-importance

(Initiated 16 days ago on 1 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Redundant WPANIMATION categories

(Initiated 11 days ago on 6 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 114 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 80 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 71 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 20 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Selected Ambient Works Volume II#Proposed merge of Stone in Focus into Selected Ambient Works Volume II

(Initiated 11 days ago on 6 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; proposal is blocking GA closure czar 11:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Strange behaviour from several new accounts

There have been several throwaway accounts recently—Yumakotori9, Samuelliam, Rozsateka, Vincemio9 and Antontimo2—that all follow the same editing pattern. Their edits almost exclusively consist of overlinking, adding redundant sentences and incorrectly italicising titles. Is this disruptive enough to warrant blocking? I've been reverting them but the frequency of these edits seem to be increasing. —Xezbeth (talk) 08:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Found some more: Reidan29, Emmaava17, Usagi40, Zoeemily, Ethanliam69, Yumiko69, Masonadam25, Aliceella25, Misako94. Obviously a sockpuppet of some sort, but I can't work out what the intent is. —Xezbeth (talk) 11:54, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Similarly unsure about their actual edits, but an SPI might be a good idea. Sam Walton (talk) 11:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

They might be a class of students learning how to edit Misplaced Pages and told to start off with this kind of stuff. Or, they are all making a load of minor edits to get auto-confirmed and then go after their real goals which may or may not be legitimate ones. Voceditenore (talk) 12:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I've not looked in a huge amount of detail but it seems like the edits are sequential, as if one person is moving from account to account. Sam Walton (talk) 12:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I raised something similar at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Strange concentration of new accounts on new, obscure article. Number 57 14:42, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know about your examples, Number 57, but I left messages on the talk pages of all the ones named in this section asking them if this was a class assignment. This response indicates that maybe it is. But who knows? Voceditenore (talk) 17:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

This is possibly a continuation of the disruption first reported at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive887#Suspicious activity at Kammavari Palem. One of the accounts was proven to be a sockpuppet of User:036386536a; a couple others made unprompted denials of being sockpuppets even though no one had accused them in the first place. (See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/036386536a/Archive#6 June 2015 and the following two sections.) All the accounts implausibly claimed that Misplaced Pages itself told them to edit certain articles after signing up for an account. My best theory so far is that User:036386536a is either running or taking an online course on Misplaced Pages. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

@Psychonaut:, @Lukeno94:, @WikiDan61:.

I'm not so sure it's implausible.

Presuming they claimed they were suggested to different articles, pretty sure it's entirely plausible. AFAIK Misplaced Pages:GettingStarted has been shown to all newly registered accounts after they complete registration for quite a while now. (Meta:Research:Onboarding new Wikipedians/Rollout suggests since 2014-02-11.) Definitely it was shown when I created a temp account just now to confirm it's still working.

As that page says you can add ?gettingStartedReturn=true to any page to see what's shown to new users. If they came from an editable article (and the software knows it), they'll be invited to edit the article they came from, but if they came from anywhere else (an uneditable article or something that isn't an article or the software doesn't know where they came from) except special pages, they'll be direct to something else to edit.

Now, if many accounts claim they were all suggested to the same article (which wasn't were they started from) in in a brief timespan, that seems implausible unless there's a bug or weirdness in the design of getting started, those details I'm lazy to check.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Where is Poland?

So, where's Poland? Is it in Eastern Europe or Central Europe? There was an RfC about this on Talk:Poland, which I closed today in favour of Eastern Europe (diff). Accordingly, I changed the article to say so. I've now been reverted, but the editor concerned has not explained himself on the article talk page or on mine.

Taking the most charitable interpretation of the revert, I'll assume that this editor wants to challenge my close but does not know how to do so. (I was half-expecting a challenge to my close in any case, because I went for a decision rather than a compromise.) Could I have an RfC close review please?—S Marshall T/C 18:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

This is primarily a question about how Europe should be divided, not specifically about Poland - perhaps you should try an RFC at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Europe. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Hi @Od Mishehu: and thanks for responding, but I do just wonder if you might have missed the point?—S Marshall T/C 19:29, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that close, and decided not to say anything if users seemed to accept it, but now that users have clearly not accepted it, I'm afraid I have to say that I disagree with it. Sorry Stuart, no offense intended, I appreciate your effort and good intent, but to me, that close reads more like a supervote rather than an evaluation of the arguments. In terms of arguing users, we have for a Central/Eastern Europe compromise: Cordless Larry, Piotrus, OnlyInYourMind, OwenBlacker, and Yatzhek. For Eastern Europe we only have Samotny Wędrowiec (though he would also accept, and even proposed, a Central/Eastern compromise), and TheGnome, while for Central Europe: Xx236. Of course the actual arguments are more important than the count of supporters, but Samotny Wędrowiec, Piotrus, and Xx236 each presented multiple links with evidence for their sides. It's pretty clear that the consensus is for a Central/Eastern compromise. I know you wrote that you also took the opinions of other people discussing elsewhere on the page into account, but that hardly makes it more clear, since there we have Oliszydlowski, Boston9, and Student7 arguing against merely Eastern Europe, and in favor of a compromise of both. (And of course there's Powertranz, though they merely revert rather than argue, so it's hard to tell what their argument is, it's still pretty clear they don't agree.) A closer needs to be able to put their personal opinions aside; if they can't, or don't agree with the clear discussion consensus, and think it should be listed as in Eastern Europe, then they can say so, and participate in the discussion, but they shouldn't close it as a supervoter. --GRuban (talk) 21:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of complicating matters further, I feel I should point out that this RfC appears not to have been properly carried out, and seems not to have served the purpose for which they are designed. The intention is to attract the opinions of outside contributors - and for that purpose, a template is provided, which ensures that the RfC is added to the appropriate lists. As it stands, I can see little evidence that the 'RfC' amounted to more than a rehashing of arguments by involved contributors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Well, I'd agree that there were no outside contributors. There was what seems to be a correct RfC template on the article until Legobot removed it on 26th May (diff); I closed it more than three weeks after the template expired. I think the usual amount of effort had been made to attract outside contributors but none had showed up.
  
  GRuban's count is superficially accurate but I feel that to consider Yatzhek as "for a central/eastern europe compromise" is to disregard most of his posts on the talk page. Yatzhek hasn't been persuaded that Poland is in central/eastern europe, he's been exhausted into agreeing to it. I also don't agree with GRuban's apparent choice to disregard the IP posters.
  
  Until I read the RfC I didn't think much about this subject, but now that I've read it (and the linked sources), I really do think Poland's in Eastern Europe. Its eastern boundary is the eastern edge of the European Union, and also the eastern edge of NATO. Its language is Slavic and its people are, with minority exceptions, Slavs. However, I'm happy to be overturned if there's a consensus that I'm wrong.—S Marshall T/C 22:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Apologies for my earlier comment re the template - I thought I'd checked for it, but obviously missed it somehow. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The 'location' of Poland has been an ongoing issue. Please see all of archive 2 (which includes an RM), and the majority of archive 3 (which includes an RfC) for the Galicia (Eastern Europe) article. Personally, I'm neutral as to whether Poland is described as a Central European country or not... but I've also been worn out by the proposal to define Poland as being in Central Europe from as many different fronts as possible. In fact, I've been so far put off the subject by what can only be described as FORUMSHOPPING raising its head every six months or so, that I've started to believe the hype. I agree with S Marshal's evaluation of the RfC. While I was involved with the Galician disambiguation issue as a matter of compromise, I truly see this as something that can only be neutrally assessed via a crossroads talk page where a far more diverse group of editors can !vote and discuss the COMMONNAME for the region in Europe English language sources agree on. To be honest, Eastern Europe has been treated as an IDONTLIKEIT assignation which simply isn't reflected in the Anglophone world. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the conflict over Galicia (Eastern Europe) of November 2013. Since 2003, the article has been titled Galicia (Central-Eastern Europe), Galicia (central Europe), Galicia (Central Europe), Galicia (Central and Eastern Europe), Galicia (East Central Europe), Galicia (East-Central Europe) and Galicia (Eastern and Central Europe). Let's just say that identifying countries in this entire geographic area has been a ongoing subject of dispute. Liz 12:57, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

It sure looks like there were outside contributors. This RfC was OnlyInYourMind (talk · contribs)'s only contribution to Poland related topics, and OwenBlacker (talk · contribs) specifically wrote he was here from the Misplaced Pages:Feedback request service. Both were, of course, in favor of compromise. I strongly suspect that most other outside contributors would be too, because ... no offence to the participants ... to those without a dog in this fight, this likely just isn't worth arguing over. Please see Boris's view concisely expressed just below. Ahem.

As for S Marshall's arguments, they are just that arguments for the discussion. They are not conclusive (I suspect Austria or Canada or a dozen other countries could have issues with the concept that NATO borders defined Europe) or even appropriate, for the closing. The closer is supposed to evaluate the arguments made in the discussion, rather than decide based on their own views. Let's quote directly from Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions: "If the consensus of reasonable arguments is opposite to the closer's view, he or she is expected to decide according to the consensus." With all due respect, it reads as if you have done the opposite. --GRuban (talk) 14:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, certainly I have no strong feelings on the matter. From my perspective as someone brought up during the Cold War in Western Europe, I was taught that Poland was in Eastern Europe — but where that term was a transparent euphemism for the Warsaw Pact nations. Now I would describe anything between the Rhine and Poland's current eastern border as being Central Europe. But I'd understand either term and, as GRuban (talk · contribs) succinctly put it, I don't have a dog in this fight and don't really consider it worth arguing over ;o) Personally, I'm far more interested in a stable Misplaced Pages than whether the limits of Central or Eastern Europe are clearly defined. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 14:25, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Interesting, but why at Poland's Eastern border? To me that seems like a fairly arbitrary place to draw the line. Culturally, large parts of Belarus and Ukraine have a lot more in common with Poland than Russia. If you believe Poland and countries similar to it are in Central Europe, then why exclude Belarus and Ukraine? Would you include Germany with that definition? Linguistically it makes no sense, since as a native Polish speaker I can understand chunks of spoken Ukrainian and Belarusian without any prior learning of these languages (after learning the Cyrillic script I can also tell that their orthography is very similar to Polish despite of the difference in alphabets), the same applies to spoken and written Slovak and Czech (though reading that is even easier due to the similar alphabets), but I understand practically no spoken or written German despite of learning that language at school for 3 years. Even the political definition of Central Europe (nowadays often used as another term for Eastern European countries that are now allied with the US rather than Russia) shouldn't really end at Poland's Eastern border but about 3/4 into Ukraine. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 17:58, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Are we there yet? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Per GRuban, the closure statement does not reflect the consensus as presented, and should be reverted. The discussion does not seem to support the conclusion written by S Marshall. --Jayron32 03:34, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Not meaning to be disrespectful, most of the 'discussion' took place well before the stub-end posturing as an RfC. The protracted discussions prior that which is found in the 'RfC' have, to my mind, been considered and well represented by S Marshall. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• {{Do not archive until}} added. Please remove the {{Do not archive until}} tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 04:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to post here (as someone who has been trying to change things in this matter for over a year now), but if I am then here it is: for me personally the matter is clear - Poland is an Eastern European country through and through. The arguments I have provided over time and the amount of sources I linked to are enough proof that most of the world seems to agree on that. Central Europe is a concept that largely overlaps with the idea of Western and Eastern Europe. Time and time again we hear of Austria as either Western or Central Europe, whilst Hungary, Slovakia and Czechia are most often referred to as Eastern or East-Central Europe/Central and Eastern Europe (different wording, but essentially same thing).

The concept of Central Europe isn't that new, but it has always been mostly about the central parts of the Austrian Empire/Austria-Hungary - a unique mix of cultures from the East and West. Calling Poland a Central European country is a much more recent idea and it seems ridiculous to me since present-day Poland has only very small parts of land that used to be under the control of the Austrians. Going by this, even countries geographically more to the East like Romania or Ukraine have more right to call themselves Central European. What disgusts me the most is that Eastern Europe, in the minds of many Eastern Europeans, is perceived as something objectively bad or something to be ashamed of. Pretty much half of the countries in Eastern Europe have a growing minority of loud people who argue that Eastern Europe starts to the East of their country. This results in some funny situations, where people from Poland, Latvia or Serbia argue that they are in Central or even Western Europe - both ideas are marginal at best. It's also annoying how people can't let go of the political connotations to Eastern Europe. The Eastern Bloc is gone, half of the Eastern European countries are now politically Western, but their cultures and history didn't change overnight in 1989 or 1991. And yes, whether they like it or not, influence of the Russian Empire and the USSR makes up a major part of the region's history.

Anyway, the only reason why I started arguing for a compromise is due to the fact that I became sick and tired of repeating myself. This turned into a frustration that has led me to take a break off Misplaced Pages by getting myself purposefully suspended. I came back (though I am still suspended on the Polish as I don't think it's worth appealing for the lifting of my suspension in that part of the online encyclopedia, because it is filled with POV-pushing and moderators abusing their powers) and realised that an inhuman amount of patience is required to see anything really change in the Poland article. So I just started taking it a bit less seriously and devoted less of my time to it. Eventually I started arguing for a compromise. But the same thing happens. I post countless arguments and sources supporting the change, yet all I get is lightning-fast reverts, vandalising of the talk page with personal attacks against me and so on. The only serious responses I was getting were from a very small number of mostly Polish Wikipedians who either replied by simply saying that they disagree, some of them occasionally posted a link to support their view.

So the main problem here is that, at the current moment in time, Misplaced Pages does not reflect the views of the world. It does not reflect how the UN or EU statistically group these countries, neither does it show what the majority of us actually think. The Poland article is strictly controlled by a group of Polish Wikipedians, some of them with connections to people with authority, who are destined to turn all things related to Poland on Misplaced Pages into the most biased travel guide available about a "country in the heart of Europe". One absolutely ridiculous example of this that I remember was when someone modified a quotation from Angela Merkel in the Poland article to say "Central and Eastern Europe" instead of "Eastern Europe" from the original source. Most of these people are unwilling to discuss anything related to this. They have had their way for so long and they probably will in the end also. The only reason why some progress actually started happening is due to users from the outside finally joining in. But it looks like it was very short-lived, because after the change we are now back to the same people repeatedly reverting any edits on the topic. In case anyone wasn't aware of this, Powertranz is the worst offender. He has been reverting these changes since February 2014 and he has NEVER taken part in the discussion about said changes. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 17:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm on the verge of self-reverting and reopening the discussion here. Another independent person's input would be very welcome to me at this point.—S Marshall T/C 19:09, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

File upload wizard broken

FYI, apparently the WP:File Upload Wizard is currently broken, due to a change in MediaWiki's Javascript support. See thread on WP:VP/T#File upload wizard broken for technical details. I hope to see this fixed soon; in the meantime, could admins please keep some extra eyes on the Upload logs, since editors are currently thrown back on the old unguided upload form and there are large numbers of files with missing or bad file descriptions coming through. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:46, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Request Admin Attention at Global Positioning System

There has been edit-warring at Global Positioning System, and now admin User:TomStar81 has temporarily locked the article. It appears that progress is being made, and that the editors may be able to work out the content dispute, but admin attention is requesting just in case there are personal attacks or other disruptive behavior. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement, the limits of WP:INVOLVED, and (inevitably) Eric Corbett

Last night I closed a WP:AE request about a topic ban breach by User:Eric Corbett. A number of editors had commented on it, all of whom seemed to agree that while it was a technical breach of the TB, it wasn't worth a serious sanction. I thus closed it in that way with no action. An hour later, arbitrator User:GorillaWarfare unilaterally blocked Eric for a month. There are a couple of issues here.

• Enforcement. I closed the report as "no action", but GorillaWarfare overrode it. Had it been the other way round (i.e. I'd blocked Eric and she had unblocked him without discussing it with me, or here) then it would almost certainly have resulted in a desysop. It seems wrong that AE decisions can be overridden in one direction but not the other. Why even bother having AE if admins can unilaterally ignore the discussion and the closing of them?
• Involvement. GorillaWarfare was one of the arbs that voted for Eric's topic ban in the first place. Whilst that would not normally meet any definition of involvement, she was also quite vocal in wanting Eric completely site-banned during that case (here is the PD page). I'm ... uneasy that it was GW who did the blocking. As I said on her talkpage, she should undo the block, and if another admin wants to re-block, that's their prerogative (but again, the above issue still applies).

AE blocks can be undone by a discussion here. Whether that is the outcome or not, I think the above issues need to be discussed. Black Kite (talk) 10:53, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support unblock as out of process and against consensus. The AE request was filed at 21:45 UTC and Eric was blocked just before 04:00 UTC, during which time I was either reading articles or (mostly) asleep. A little over six hours is far too short a time to gain an accurate consensus; indeed, when I have entertained unblock proposals when coming across cases on CAT:UNBLOCK I have generally allowed 7 days as a suitable timeframe. I was very close to unblocking Eric myself, but I think a discussion here is a good idea - though one I fear will descend quickly into a mud slinging drama-fest :-( Ritchie333 11:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • AE is not based on developing a new consensus each time. As long as there was a violation of an arbitration sanction, an administrator can enforce the sanction without any discussion. The discussion happened when the arbitration case is decided, and after that the case itself provides the consensus behind any enforcement actions. 2601:5C5:4000:B14F:90D1:11E:D24C:CBF7 (talk) 12:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock - After the AE discussion, this unilateral action looked to be a second bite of the apple. This is inconsistent with our goals and policy. If we are to ignore consensus, then why bother having AE. I'm also bothered by GW's comments about how there was only one admin among participants, which seemed to be a disrespectful jab at non-admin, indicating their input is less important than those of us with the bit. If it wasn't an Arb block, I would have simply unblocked him myself without asking. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

So a little over six hours is far too short a time to gain an accurate consensus with which you disagree, but fine for one with which you agree? Hal peridol (talk) 11:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I believe that GorillaWarfare has already explained her comment about only one admin . Amortias (T)(C) 11:19, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Insufficient. If her real concern was that the comments were simply off topic, she wouldn't have mentioned who had admin bits and who didn't, they aren't related. That might be her response, but it doesn't explain it. The words speak for themselves. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I can see where your coming from and I certainly agree that your entitled to your opinion even though I don't see it that way. I was mostly posting it so others could easily find the response to the statement that had already been given. Sufficient or not I will let individuals decide. Amortias (T)(C) 11:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support block Everytime Eric makes a comment he knows is likely to lead to a block he tends to be blocked. There is a surge of support for his unblocking. Eric returns continues to make comments that he is prohibited from making and ends up blocked. If you've been told dont do something and you carry on doing it the blame lies firmly with the person making the comments. My understanding of the process is that any uninvolved administrator can block with regards to arbitration sanctions they dont need to go via AE (please point me in the direction of something that says otherwise if it exists). Amortias (T)(C) 11:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, this is my point really. What is the function of AE if a consensus discussion can be overridden like this? Misplaced Pages functions on consensus, this just seems ... I don't know, out of place. If I close an AfD discussion as "Keep", an admin can't come along an hour later and delete the article anyway. This seems analogous. Black Kite (talk) 11:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, they can if the article meets one of the speedy deletion criteria. Nick-D (talk) 11:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I can think of several articles, most notoriously The Mariposa Trust, where I ignored previous consensus to delete, (deleted contribs here) and just went with what I thought was best for the encyclopedia. Which is what we should all do as priority. Ritchie333 11:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• I think you know exactly what I meant. Black Kite (talk) 11:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support Block Eric was placed on a discretionary sanction and understood what it was all about, he chose to violate that sanction not once, but repeatedly, and he's been repeatedly blocked for it. In fact, on his latest post he challenged an admin to block him, which as far as I'm concerned (and I'm also under a discretionary sanction, myself) is just asking for a block. I'd consider GorillaWarfare's actions to be more along the lines of WP:IAR. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock. Clear consensus not to block at the enforcement page. Besides it is, as others have already said, a minor civilly-worded statement on his own talk page that supports treating genders equally. DrKiernan (talk) 11:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support block per KoshVorlon. This is a sensible block given it related to a clear violation of editing restrictions. The notion that blocks should only be implemented when there's a consensus which is being advanced above is nonsense, especially in the circumstances here (including those which Amortias notes). The "involvement" section of Black Kite's post above is also dubious at best given that GW made those comments in her official roles. Nick-D (talk) 11:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Note that she specifically says "Please note that this is not an arbitrator action. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)" immediately below the block template. Johnbod (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support block essentially same as KoshVorlon ChristopheT (talk) 11:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock per Black Kite and Ritchie333. Arbs blocking "along the lines of WP:IAR" should not be encouraged. Johnbod (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support block per KoshVorlon and Amortias Kevin Gorman (talk) 11:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock per Black Kite, Ritchie333 and Dennis Brown. A pointless over-reaction on the part of GW, who should be considering their position. Nortonius (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock per Amortias. Obviously treating Eric like a child isn't working. Eric does not appear to be a threat to anyone nor is commentary on his own talk page disruptive; if he's saying things that are ill-informed - which I think he is - simply challenge him. Alakzi (talk) 11:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support Block Clearly a breach and given his history of ignoring sanctions imposed on him, 1 month is actually less than he deserves. HOWEVER - given that it is impossible for any policy-following admin to block Eric due to the administrator community refusing to pay any attention to the civility pillar and relevant policies - I would like to propose all Eric Corbett reports are forwarded straight to arbcom in future. No AE. No community discussion at the drama boards. Let them sort it out - although judging by previous cases they dont particularly want to uphold community standards regarding him either. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, 6 hours is apparently not enough time to block, but it is enough time to declare one of the most long-term violators of community standards to be given ANOTHER slap on the wrist? Meh double standards somewhat there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support unblock – per Rictchie333. GorillaWarfare stuck two fingers up at the consensus which was quickly forming at AE and allowed her own personal prejudices to queer her decision to either block or unblock. I'm still waiting, incidentally, for her to respond with regards to her rational when it came to ignoring this consensus. But it appears she ignores such discussions when things get a bit tough! Cassianto 11:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock - I was determined to speak up at AE (which I normally try to avoid: about the pettiness of reporting someone for a comment on his own talk, a behaviour which we should not support by even reacting to it) and found this block which doesn't improve Misplaced Pages. Read my comments elsewhere, including a woman-to-woman talk to GorillaWarfare. - If I was in her position, I would unblock myself without waiting for more display of no consensus. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Comment and probably unpopular opinion by totally uninvolved party: I have no opinion on the block (although it is pretty long, and that seems excessive). But I agree with this posted above: Everytime Eric makes a comment he knows is likely to lead to a block he tends to be blocked. There is a surge of support for his unblocking. Eric returns continues to make comments that he is prohibited from making and ends up blocked. If you've been told dont do something and you carry on doing it the blame lies firmly with the person making the comments. And baiting admins by saying stuff like "Callanecc can block me again for as long as he likes, for whatever reason takes his fancy", whilst apparently violating his topic ban, and then declaring he is forever done with Misplaced Pages when something of that nature actually occurs, is disruptive to the encyclopedia because it creates drama. To quote Floquenbeam (not sure if he meant it like I mean it): "What if they gave a drama and nobody came?" What if Eric served out his blocks without any protests from an army of fans (even if he was in the middle of an FAR)? Then he wouldn't feed on the drama/brinksmanship/defiance and create more of it. Softlavender (talk) 11:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • What a shame you have to resort to such incivilty by referring to Eric's friends as "fans". Cassianto 11:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Not sure how referring to someone who supports someone as a fan is uncivil?. Amortias (T)(C) 11:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Please don't pretend to be stupid ignorant. You and I both know what the comment meant. Cassianto 12:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately I know what the comment meant to me. If it means something else to someone else I seek clarification as I have done in my previous comment. I certainly don't expect to be referred to as pretending to be stupid for seeking clarification on someones opinion of something to allow me to better understand their opinion and therefore come to a more balanced understanding of the matter. If you'd be so kind as to strike that remark I would be grateful. Amortias (T)(C) 12:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Maybe words like "supporters" or something would be more appropriate, don't you think? Cassianto 12:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Amortias, see my comment below Ritchie333's, timed at 11:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC). Nortonius (talk) 12:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Seen and understood. If they were referring to someones contributions or opinions being less worhtwhile than someones because they were a fan of something/one I can see where thats uncivil. I Just didnt see taht comment being made in the above statement, its possible thats just how I read into it. On a side note I'm going to suggest we hat this bit as its getting further and further off topic and this page will soon be TLDR without our help. Amortias (T)(C) 12:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I have a slightly different view, which is going one stage back. What if Eric said "I hate Jimbo, arbcom smells, all admins look at me funny yada yada" and everyone ignored it? Indeed, does our no personal attacks policy not say "Often the best way to respond to an isolated personal attack is to simply ignore it"? Why don't we go back to square one with this and give that a go? I appreciate I am taking this personally, but that's because the last time this happened, Eric was in mid-review of Snake Pass and doing a good copyedit. Why should my attempts to improve the encyclopedia suffer? Ritchie333 11:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Ritchie, it wasn't a personal attack, it was daring admins to block him, while doing something blockworthy -- it was admin-baiting. And note that I covered the FAR issue in my comment. It is exactly because Eric and others feel he is indispensable that he feels he can get away with violating sanctions without getting blocked -- and he appears to feed off the thrill of the adulation, the feeling of indispensability, and the irrepressible urge to violate restrictions. That is just my observation from observing this time and again. I have no dog in this fight -- I have never worked with Eric (positive or negative) or had an FAR or anything. What if Eric's supporters, instead of protesting his blocks, urged him to be cautious and focus on building an encyclopedia rather than on defying admins/restrictions, even (especially!) if he is blocked in the middle of an FAR? Anytime someone is held up as potentially unblockable and outside the rules, that is bad for the encyclopedia. Softlavender (talk) 12:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Hear, hear, to both Cassianto and Ritchie333: dismissing the opinions of others as those of "fans" et al. is something that I find really offensive, yet people get away with it all the time. It's so inane and demeaning, besides being so sadly predictable. And I do have improvements to the encyclopedia in mind, for which I would ordinarily turn to Eric Corbett as a GA-meister. Nortonius (talk) 11:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The blocks are a series of escalating blocks hence the length. Amortias (T)(C) 11:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Appropriate block. Remember: the arbitration enforcement is not based on forming a consensus for each action. As long as there was an unambiguous violation of an arbitration decision, any administrator can enforce the appropriate sanction, even if a few other admins have said they will not enforce it. In this way, AE simply enforces decisions that were already made by the arbitration committee. In this case, the block seems to be well within the terms of the discretionary sanction, as EC acknowledged when he made the recent posts. Most of the comments in the closed AE thread were irrelevant to the process of enforcing an arbitration sanction. 2601:5C5:4000:B14F:90D1:11E:D24C:CBF7 (talk) 11:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

... who's sock are you? Have you already commented elsewhere here? --Epipelagic (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I have not commented as any other user on this thread, or elsewhere, about this block. But it is somewhat sad to see supposedly experienced editors who don't understand how AE works, so I thought I would comment. This will be it for me, anyway - I'm out. 2601:5C5:4000:B14F:90D1:11E:D24C:CBF7 (talk) 12:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

And by that I suppose you're referring to me? Cassianto 12:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support unblock per Black Kite, Ritchie333 et al. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Questions: As this has been opened on the topic of WP:INVOLVED, let's discuss that. Do you, User:Black Kite, User:Ritchie333, User:Dennis Brown consider yourself WP:Invovled with respect to User:Eric Corbett? If not, how are you differently situated than User:Gorrilla Warfare - note she was acting in an administrative capacity in arbitration. Under Discretionary Sanctions, does or does not Gorrilla Warfare have discretion? Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

As I stated on GorillaWarfare's page, yes I considered myself WP:INVOLVED for reasons stated there, which is one reason I have not unblocked. Ritchie333 11:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

(e/c)Do you agree that Gorilla Warfare was acting in an administrative capacity as an arbitrator in the arbitration statements that are being here used against her? Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe it is permitted for any admin to lift a block that is imposed as part restrictions set by an arbitration case or a complaint brought before AE. The instructions there say Any administrator that overturns an enforcement action outside of these circumstances shall be subject to appropriate sanctions, up to and including desysopping, at the discretion of the Committee. The only way that Eric's block can be lifted is by action of the arbitration committee itself or a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard which is what is going on here. Liz 12:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

On the subject of involved, I would suggest that an admin who commented on the side of EC during the GGTF case here might not have clean hands closing an AE request concerning EC at very short notice before other admins have discussed whether a TB violation has taken place. This defense of EC appears not to be an isolated case either... here & here. GWs block looks like a good one to me. Spartaz 12:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Except I'm not really talking about the block itself (there is no doubt that, technically, it was a violation of Eric's TB), more how it was made. Meanwhile as far as the AE goes, I was simply closing per consensus in the discussion, something which doesn't always happen at AE. If I'd simply said "no violation" with no discussion then you would certainly have a point. Black Kite (talk) 12:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

If you acknowledge a tban violation, why did you not block? These are not discretionary sanctions. It's a topic ban. When intentional unambiguous violations occur, there is no room for admin discretion. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 12:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

If there was no room for admin discretion, we have have a bot met out blocks. There is always room for discretion, after considering the totality of the circumstances and hearing from fellow editors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support block This Corbett character looks like a big boy to me and I'm sure he's familiar with the unblock request process. Lugnuts 12:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support block as filer of the AE. It was closed prematurely after only being commented on by people who follow Corbett's talk page and closed by an admin who has made clear his strong support of Corbett. There was an unambiguous breach of topic ban with a direct taunt to a previous blocking admin. All comments if the AE were either about me, about how wonderful Corbett is, out how stupid the tban is. None addressed the actual behavior. Performing arbcom duties and voting does not preclude any arb from performing admin duties and enforcing a tban that by definition was placed with majority support. The suggestion is absurd. The idea that any admin, regardless of their feelings for an individual user, would be either unwilling to fulfill their obligations to enact sanctions in the face of unambiguous violations or that they wish to subvert the arbitration means they are not fit to be an admin. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 12:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I'm puzzled by the comments about acting in opposition to the consensus expressed by editors who offered statements in this complaint. AE doesn't operate by consensus, not by the consensus of the editors and not by consensus of admins. A single admin can choose to block when other admins state that a block is unwarranted. I agree that consensus is preferable but the consensus model is not how AE has operated in the time I've been active on Misplaced Pages. A solitary admin can choose to block an editor or close a case regardless of editors' opinions. Liz 12:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support Unblock per Black Kite, Ritchie333 and Dennis Brown - He should never have been blocked in the first place, What's the point of Arbcom if admins can just do what the fuck they like regardless of the comments/consensus?, As I said on Erics TP - If this isn't a punitive block then I honestly don't know what is!. –Davey2010 12:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support Unblock, no harm in the comments, the only harm being done is unilateral action by an Arb that made it clear in the first case her first preference was to ban EC. I can certainly point to several examples of several questionable actions she has done. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 12:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock. The block disregarded consensus, and it was inappropriate. Everyking (talk) 12:38, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Closure Review

This is a request to review the close at Talk:Grand_Theft_Auto_V#Merger_proposal to determine whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly. I discussed this with the closer at User_talk:SNUGGUMS#Closure_Of_Merger_Discussion.

The closure appears to have been made based on the opinion of the editor that closed it rather than the actual consensus. As I said when talking to the editor that closed it, I am aware that consensus is not determined simply by counting heads but there are significantly more editors in support of the merger than against it, and neither side cited any rules. Mainline421 (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Misplaced Pages:Freedom of Panorama 2015

I'd like to bring the above issue to the general attention of admins since it involves the site-wide notification. -- A Certain White Cat 12:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Administrative backlog