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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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GreatGreen

Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

RGloucester (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Users against whom enforcement is requested

Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Darkfrog24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Discretionary sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Too many diffs to count. Simply look at the edit history of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Manual of Style/External support. Edit-warring has been going on between these two users for more than a week, filling that edit history with nothing but reverts. Also see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Register, where a similar situation has arisen.

• See also this user page discussion on Darkfrog24's talk page and this user page discussion on Dicklyon's talk page. The dispute has clearly been personalised, with accusations of "lying" going back and forth.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Standard DS notice received by Dicklyon (March 2015)
• Standard DS notice received by Darkfrog24 (September 2015)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Back on 18 December, a user requested clarification on the MoS talk page about the quotation style used by Misplaced Pages. This discussion started out collegial, but has blown up into a protracted dispute between two users across many pages. Darkfrog24 and Dicklyon have been edit-warring constantly on the two MoS subpages linked above for more than a week, after discussion at the main page resulted in a stalemate. I haven't even bothered to provide diffs, because the edit history of those two pages consist only of reverts made by either user. WP:3RR has long since passed. Both users are aware of the MoS DS, and this type of behaviour should not be allowed to continue. I would suggest that some action is taken against both parties to the dispute, as other editors who participated in the civil discussion at WT:MOS had no trouble avoiding this type of edit-warring, which is exactly what the MoS case remedies (see remedy 1.2) were meant to stop. Both parties are veterans of MoS disputes. How long does this type of thing have to go on in little watched pages before someone does something about it? RGloucester — ☎ 18:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Addendum – I strongly reject any accusations of being a "provocateur". I was involved in the discussion at the MoS talk page before Mr Lyon was even capable of commenting there, and had been following it as such. Whilst I ceased my participation as I saw that the discussion was becoming fertile ground for conflict, I also saw this continued edit-warring and pointless bickering occurring across multiple pages, with no one to stop it. The two editors in question here are both aware of remedy 1.2, which I mentioned above, which establishes a process whereby changes should occur after consensus is gained on the talk page, not by a process of edits and reversion. I don't understand how I can be at fault for bringing to light behaviour that is directly contrary to the remedies established in the arbitration case. If no one cares about this disruption in little known pages in the project space, fine. That doesn't mean that editors should be able to get away with disruptive behaviour of this sort, which is likely to spill back into more well-known pages eventually. As far as my personal reading on the matter, I tend to agree with SmC and Mr Lyon on the topic matter of this dispute. That doesn't excuse the nature of what is going on, here, again. If no administrative action is taken here, this dispute will continue repeat itself. This is not the first time it has blown up. There are cycles, and until someone stops that cycle, this disruption will continue. This has been the problem with AE for as long as I've been familiar with it. Parties in a dispute, on whatever side, are well aware of the nature of the "boomerang", and will band together against any sort of sanction for any party, because they know both sides are at fault. However, once the dispute is gone from AE and some time has passed, edit-warring begins again. Stop the cycle. RGloucester — ☎ 19:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Notification of Dicklyon
• Notification of Darkfrog24

Discussion concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Dicklyon

Neither of us has editted Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Register for nearly a week. We have confined our edit war to a stupid subpage (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Manual of Style/External support) that nobody cares about; not clear why RGloucester thought that to be worth stalking and complaining about. Anyway, as long as the Dark Frog keeps saying that the MOS requires British style, I keep reverting, to the version that acknowledges that the style our MOS recommends, "logical style", is called "British style" by some sources. And I keep adding more sources of "support" for the MOS, as that's what the page says it's about.

If people would prefer to see us stop this, I would be happy to see a ban of any term, hopefully indef, on either of us editing this page. I'd go further and propose it for deletion at MfD, as it's just the DF's place to collect anti-MOS info, trying to set up WP:LQ to be an ENGVAR issue, which it is not. The sources are all clear on this style correlating more with region (American/Canada vs the rest of the world), as opposed to any tie to dialect. The sources I've been adding make it clear that many, or most as one source admits, Americans prefer the logical style; I acknowledge that the dark frog does not. Note that the page is essentially empty except for the one section Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style/External_support#Punctuation_inside_or_outside which was filled in by the DF as part of her campaign against LQ. It is inappropriate for her to be doing this (and yes, I admit it's inappropriate for me to be edit warring, too, but I honestly didn't think anyone would notice or care about this venue).

The closest thing to an accusation of lying was in my edit summary phrase "that's your lie" in this edit. I regret that I expressed it thus. I could have said "that's your interpretation"; anyway, no reason she should be including a controversial interpret of a source that way.

As for the so-called 3RR accusation, I don't think we've seen 3 or more edit cycles in any day. Methinks this is just RGloucester resurrecting his grudge. I have done my best to not interact with him, but he makes it hard now. Dicklyon (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Note that below DF claims to have shown "sources that explicitly state that the practice required by Misplaced Pages's MoS is British". This is twisted. These sources do not mention "the practice required by Misplaced Pages's MoS"; this is her over-interpretation and misrepresentation; reading more closely often shows that what they call British is actually not quite the same as the logical style that our MOS advocates. Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

(Following comment is a response to Newyorkbrad. It was moved by RGloucester.)

I already said I'd be up for any mutual restriction there. Dicklyon (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24

This complaint is an overreaction. As the edits themselves show, this isn't a straight revert-and-revert situation. Dicklyon and I are triangulating our way toward a version that we can both live with. We've both been compromising and giving way to the other here and there. He stopped removing the Chicago Manual of Style from the page after I took it to the talk page and gave a good reason why he should do so (see first paragraph at this link ). I didn't remove the ABA reference even though I don't think it's necessary. There are a few points on which I think he's flat-out wrong and I'm confident he feels the same way, but this is a work in progress, not a stalemate.

A few factual corrections to RG's report: There haven't been accusations of lying "back and forth." Dicklyon accused me of lying. To my knowledge, I've never said anything indicating that he doesn't believe what he says. However, this measure is still an overreaction. I went to his user talk page and asked him to stop. He agreed that "lie" was taking it too far, and he hasn't done it again. It's already been dealt with.

I concur with Dicklyon regarding 3RR. I don't usually count, but I don't think either of us violated 3RR. I thought I might have been close once, so I self-reverted just in case. I also deliberately slowed it down starting a few days ago, and it feels like he might've done so too. Dicklyon did mark two substantive edits as "minor," but that might have been an accident. Again, I just went to his user page (same thread as above) and asked him to be more careful. It's already been dealt with.

If RG or anyone feels that the text of MOS:SUPPORTS does not reflect consensus, then the answer is to bring in more people either with an RfC, at a noticeboard, or less formally. I took the issue to the NPOV noticeboard for that reason.

Correction to Dicklyon: I am not collecting anti-MOS info at MOS:SUPPORTS. I hate the British-only rule and would love to see it changed to allow American punctuation in American English articles, but I was the first one to add sources to MOS:SUPPORTS proving that it is indeed correct British English and I didn't add any quotes that specifically said that it isn't correct American English, even though most of the sources cited there do contain that information. Another correction: No Americans do not prefer logical style (better known as British style). Mainstream style guides almost universally require American style. For sources indicating this, see MOS:SUPPORTS and its talk page.

Response to SmC: I would love to apply neutrality rules to WP:SUPPORTS.

In summary, Dicklyon and I are dealing with this just fine on our own. Neither of us should be banned in any way. The appropriate thing for other editors to do is to come to the talk page and give their two cents.

EDIT: If I'm going to respond to SMcCandlish's accusations, I'm going to need more space. Suffice it to say that most of what he's saying isn't true. It's not that he's lying, but he sees what he wants to see. For example, no Misplaced Pages has not been "criticized in the British press for nationalistic inaccuracy." The writer mentions Misplaced Pages but all he says is that he thinks one of the examples in one of the articles is wrong. Please read for yourself and take all of SmC's other comments with a corresponding grain of salt. EDIT: SmC's response illustrates my point. Click the link and look at what Marsh actually wrote. Then come back here and look at what SmC concluded about it. Observe how much stretching it takes to get from A to B, and assume that he did that with his other points as well. Again, he's not lying—he just fails to see that his conclusions are interpretation plus wishful thinking and not fact. I've shown him a dozen sources that explicitly state that the practice required by Misplaced Pages's MoS is British. I'm not the one in denial.

Response to Dicklyon's comment: If anyone wants to see the sources that show that this practice is British, I will gladly supply them.

(Following comment is a response to Newyorkbrad. It was moved by RGloucester.)

I don't think it's necessary. It's a productive process and we're discussing things on multiple talk pages. RG is blowing things out of proportion again. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Tony1

I agree with the comment below that this is lame; but not that sanctions are appropriate here. Both involved users are valuable participants on MOS and other WP pages. They should simply agree to cool off and undertake to avoid cross-editing.

RGloucester is a well-known provocateur, and I believe started the thread here out of pure mischief. Regard his first post at the talkpage in question, then the starting of this thread at AE just 23 minutes later, before any futher activity on either the article page or talkpage there. Note also his statement that the page in question "has no standing within the MoS, no community consensus backs it, it is essentially a user essay, and should probably be put in the user space." It is, then, heavily ironic that he should seek to cause maximum disruption by using the apparent "DS" status of that page to start a thread here. It is disingenuous and not in the spirit of calming ruffled waters. Tony (talk) 11:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

TL;DR version: This sums up the problem perfectly: This is a "hate"-based personal WP:BATTLEGROUND matter for one editor, who will never, ever drop the stick of their belief that logical quotaion "is British" and "is wrong" for Americans, no matter how often this is disproved by citation to sources showing American publishers and style guides using logical quotation, and British style guides defining various conflicting styles, none of which are actually logical quotation, just superficially similar. All Darkfrog24 ever brings to the table is relentless equating of LQ with British to every audience available (based on nothing but the failure of some American sources to bother to distinguish them), making a bogus ENGVAR case so that Darkfrog24 can do whatever Darkfrog24 wants. This campaign against MOS consensus has been going on for 6.5 years and needs to be ended, with a topic ban. Dick Lyon reverting anti-consensus, polemic PoV and OR in the page in question (before it gets MfDed, which I plan to take care of as soon as possible – it's a WP:NOTHERE problem to have a page devoted to externally sourcing internal documentation instead of sourcing encyclopedia articles) is not comparable to Darkfrog24 editwarring to re-insert their PoV, OR and anti-consensus polemic.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  19:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

PS: I agree with Tony1's points about the questionable appropriateness of RGloucester's request here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  13:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Updated 19:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Shortened.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  01:34, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

General response: Ultimately, it simply does not matter whose sourcing regarding off-WP quotation-mark usage is correct (if anyone's) – except in mainspace at Quotation marks in English (which also at present mostly just reflects DF24's views). Being an article, it can be dispute-moderated by the usual WP:CORE-related noticeboards like WP:NORN and WP:NPOVN if necessary.

It's an impermissible behavioral problem to spend years pushing a point of view about the matter, tendentiously against consensus, across both projectspace and mainspace. WP has an internal consensus to use LQ for actual reasons, and it doesn't matter which external sources agree with us (though plenty do, including the style guides of the American Chemical Society, the Council of Science Editors, the Linguistic Society of America, various humanities journals and universities, etc.). WP does not need additional protracted discussion at the talk page of "MOS:SUPPORTS", as DF24 suggests; the entire thing is a waste of editorial time and energy.

RGloucester's suggestion that MoS regulars "will band together against any sort of sanction for any party, because they know both sides are at fault" is not borne out here. One party in particular is clearly at fault, in a WP:ARBATC-actionable manner. RG is correct that the editwarring would resume (and not just at that page) after a while, but it would be by DF24 against anyone who disagrees, because history has demonstrated that this one editor will not drop that stick until they get their way on this matter. The slow-editwar history of MOS:FAQ proves this conclusively, as does the related pattern of OR-based PoV pushing at the other MOS-related pages, the article in question, and the related Wiktionary articles. Our actual content is being warped to support an I wanna use my preferred patriotic quotation style on Misplaced Pages at all costs agenda, and we've been publicly criticized for the nationalistic inaccuracy in the British press. From The Guardian: "Misplaced Pages, which claims to bat for Britain on this subject, gives the following misleading advice: Not so. The Guardian would follow the so-called American practice, and I think many British publications would agree with us." . The denialism expressed by DF24 above is symptomatic of the issue with this editor. You see, sources simply do not say what they say if DF24 doesn't want to hear it. It's just a form of OR.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Updated with direct quote. 01:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Staggeringly lame. Both should be banned from that and related pages for at least three months. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
• Concur with JzG. It appears the editors have dug into position here, and are not even pretending to try to find consensus or see the other editor's view. KillerChihuahua 22:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

The two comments above were left before the involved editors posted their statements.

• Would both editors agree to stay off that subpage for at least a few weeks? Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

BjörnBergman

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning BjörnBergman

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Legacypac (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

BjörnBergman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 : :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Inserts a line about Zhou Youguang turning 110 today, which is fine, until you see his next edits where presumably this edit becomes "unverified". Zhou is a particularly famous person that invented Pinyin, a system credited with increasing Chinese literacy dramatically and making it possible for English etc speakers to pronounce Chinese words.
2. Undid revision 700167425 by Ricky81682 Remove Zhou Youguang. He is not yet verified. This is a lost of VERIFIED supercentenarians.
3. Another article - Zhou Youguang is unverified. This list includes VERIFIED supercentenarians.
4. Undid revision 700171497 by Legacypac (talk) Why should Zhou be included if he is unaccepted by GRG???)
5. reverts a notification that I reverted his edit with (Revert spam)
6. reverts User:Ricky81682's cleanup of the lead to preserve the GRG special focus.
7. reverts another attempt to dialog with him calling my message spam
8. files a ANi vandalism report against me on longevity.

And in all this fails to engage on their own or any article talkpage they are editing.

There is no need but the problem is these are your own "rules" - if you only accept that SCs being verified can be only 110+ in reality in every list you also have to accept this here. It is one of your own contradicting rules.GreatGreen (talk) 08:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Jan 16 which they immediately blanked also the DS are mentioned on all the main Longevity talk pages. I recognize that it appears they were not notified on their user page about the DS until just before I filed the report, so if Admins feel that the talk page notices are not enough to cover a topic ban, perhaps appropriate guidance can be given at least.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The refusal to follow WP policy in favor of GRG being the only source of any verified longevity claim, discarding all other sources, make this user problematic in this topic area. We are dealing with pure craziness in this topic like this so it is important to bring editors into policy or remove them from the topic area. Legacypac (talk) 23:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Response to BabbaQ: No one can put his disregard for policy in his head but himself. I've not looked at his edits outside this topic area as that is of no concern to this matter. The edits are not all against me either. Now we have IPs attacking these articles saying the same stuff as him. See edit history of Zhou Youguang for example. Legacypac (talk) 01:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning BjörnBergman

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

• In my opinion it is Legacypac that is "wrong" here. He is basically picking fights with users. BjörnBergman is a productive user who has helped with probably thousands of Swedish topic related articles. BjörnBergman does not seem to be the disruptive kind of user and there seem to have been plenty of bickering and baiting back and forth. No sanctions or blocks needed.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by BjörnBergman

Statement by BabbaQ

• Seems like BjörnBergman has gone for the old "baiting" trick. If you consider the overall edits between the two users it is clear to me that BjörnBergman should not even have been reported in the first place. At best this situation should have taken to admins incidents noticeboard or similar. And calling another users edits " pure craziness" as stated above by Legacypac about other users seems to be just the kind of baiting used to start this discussion in the first place. I would suggest that both BjörnBergman and Legacypac should take a cooling-off period and stay out of each others ways. --BabbaQ (talk) 00:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Result concerning BjörnBergman

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.