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Talk:Gun laws of Australia

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2000 NRA Controversy

I'm wondering if this section of the article could be expanded some more? Since the NRA responded to the Attorney General's criticisms not with a retraction, but rather a series of 1997/98 figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and local (Australian) newspaper articles which appeared to support their original claims. Yet in its current state this entry gives the impression that Daryl Williams duly reprimanded the NRA for spreading misinformation and that the story ended there.

That's also one example of a theme which I think the entry could explore more, namely the role Australian gun politics within the broader context of an international debate. Another such example would be televised debate between Rebecca Peters (who went on to work with IANSA following the 1996 reforms) and Wayne LaPierre in 2004. The Australian laws are now nearly 13 years old, and both sides within the international debate (whether in the US, Canada, the UK, Switzerland, etc) have used their own interpretations of these laws in their local political efforts. I'm not suggesting we need to go about listing a series of specific cases, just help to locate our debate within the larger picture.--TheCappy (talk) 07:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there was more to say but the NRA effort really did suck. It was only propaganda to support their own prejudices, and discredited the NRA brand in Australia (not that our rampant political correctness gave them any credit you understand!) Australian media did not give their response the time of day, which might actually be good - it didn't help at all.
In the broader context, now is the time we should be able to make a contribution, and we are. WiSH have done well at South Pacific arms control conferences for instance.
If you have some useful stuff to add, go for it. I think that country paper story claiming '300% rise in murders' is a great example of the sort of bad work the debate is riddled with. ChrisPer (talk) 09:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd also suggest- if anyone can find a reference- that mentioning the NRA's meddling has also hurt the NRAA (National Rifle Association of Australia), which is entirely unrelated to, and has totally separate goals and aims from, the US-based NRA. But they've got similar names, which is enough for some people, alas. Commander Zulu (talk) 09:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm quite happy for the NRA to keep involving themselves, since any debate about the role of small arms in a society is pretty disingenuous if (like the SSAA) it never addresses the elephant in the room; namely their function in the defense of individual life and liberty.
It's fascinating how successful Australian gun control advocates have been in marginalising that position, to the extent that local shooters organisations aren't even willing to contest it for fear of being labeled extremists, and yet it is the raison d'être for small arms. So at least the NRA are keeping it in the collective consciousness until our local debate matures enough to start addressing it seriously.
Anyway they're personal musings; not something for a Misplaced Pages entry.--TheCappy (talk) 12:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
They are curious musings since Australians with less firearms have more life and liberty than Americans with more firearms. The US murder rate is three times ours. The US incarceration rate at ~770/100k is ~5-10 times any other industrialised nation (generally 50-150). 1 in 100 adults are currently in prison over there - a perhaps more salient explanation for their recent decrease in crime. As for personal freedoms, we're just as free here as over there, we just talk about it far, far less. There are a few things you can't do over here, a few you can't do over there, none of which are particularly necessary to getting on with your life. -59.167.194.48 (talk) 10:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
It is nothing but an opinion as to whether Americans or Australians have more "life and liberty." By your own figures of ~770 people incarcerated per 100,000, your statement that "1 in 100 adults are 'currently' in prison over there" is wrong. However, comparing Australia and the United States is impossible. For starters, the U.S. population is roughly 10X Australia's and the group making up the greatest percentage of U.S. inmates, African-Americans, outnumber the entire population of Australia. Also, the U.S. illegal alien population numbers at least 35% of the entire population of Australia and many estimates have this group numbering over 20 million which would be well over 50% of Australia's population. Finally, the areas in the U.S. from which the most people are incarcerated, have the fewest guns per capita, so U.S. crime and incarceration rates should have no bearing on Australian gun law politics.TL36 (talk) 02:54, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Welcome TL36! Unfortunately the person you are disputing with made their remarks about 5 years ago and in any case wasn't worth arguing with in this venue. Feel free to suggest improvements for the article.ChrisPer (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Great to have you with us! How about getting a user name and logging in? Your stats give us lots of diversions to follow, (eg Americans kill more people with non-gun methods than we do in total, so their society plainly is more to blame than guns alone) but most importantly please continue to help create a quality NPOV article! ChrisPer (talk) 03:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

why you talking about NRA thats not australian! --Kkkkkk8888 (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Recent changes leave Port Arthur paragraphs indecipherable.

The numerous changes in the last two days have left terrible flow, and it's difficult to understand what the last few paragraphs in this section are saying at all. Several pieces of information have been included that decrease understanding instead of increasing it, for instance, what does the decreasing percentage of attacks using firearms matter if the percentage of attacks does not itself decrease?

It also appears (and I don't have the time to find out) that several more "facts" have been added that are not from the cited sources, or if they are, it's not clear how so.

My suggestion would be to revert to the edit labeled something like "added context" from Dec 4, but maybe I'm biased or too lazy to do all the typing myself. 2602:306:374D:8D60:C911:5303:9041:D7B9 (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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Cheers.—Talk to my owner:Online 14:20, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Port Arthur massacre and its consequences-section

I rewrote the part with was subject to an edit conflicht now, because the existing text was partially editorializing and grossly misrepresenting its main source (the cnn article). An even better source actually linked in the cnn article is a 50 page paper by Neil/Leigh from 2012 (Do Gun Buybacks Save Lives?), which could be used to expand that paragraph.--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Data source for chart?

The chart displayed approximately lined up with section 5 claims to show the murder rate from 1993 to 2014. However, neither of the url sources embedded at the bottom of the chart contain any data covering that interval. Furthermore, random sampling of the years shows that the values are incorrect, for example, the graph shows the 1993 homicide rate as slightly over 1.6/100k, while the actual value is 1.88/100k; the 2011 rate is shown as about 1.1/100k, while the actual value is 1.21/100k.

Please provide sources for all the data. As it stands it's synthesis, and it's using incorrect values. Anastrophe (talk) 03:34, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Removing until properly sourced. Anastrophe (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Our safety First

Its great they banned guns to protect us from a 30 deaths in 100 years case. When will the even more deadly weapon trucks be banned? Why wont the politicians protect us from trucks? Its not as if they are the smoking industry or alcohol industry which cost many times more lives each year and the gov losses Billions each year on. Or even the deadly privately owned weapons called cars which causes far more killing and damage each year and also the gov loses even more money on? Is guns and drugs the only thing the gov will ban and stop them causing any problems? Maybe the should make crimes illegal then they wont happen either.--Kkkkkk8888 (talk) 10:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Make sure what you say on this talk page is to improve the article as per WP:Talk --SwiftyPeep (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Gun control template

Per this discussion on the template talk page, I am removing the Gun politics by country template from this article, and this article from the template, because the article is not about politics. Scolaire (talk) 16:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

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This article does not outline THE ACTUAL GUN LAWS IN AUSTRALIA.

What specific allowances/restrictions are in place? Somebody please elaborate beyond firearm classification. Remember that politics is not the only point of interest in this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:1ACE:600:7996:BEB0:26E5:73C0 (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

ABS statistics

According to ABS statistics, not only are murders by knife attacks in Australia more common than murders by gun attacks but knife attacks are also more deadly. For the years 2001 to 2015 there was a 1.34 times greater chance of dying if attacked with a knife than of dying if attacked with a gun. The first step of the calculation is made by adding the number of murders and attempted murders, firstly in gun attacks and then in knife attacks to give a total number of attacks for each type of weapon. Then the percentage of attacks in each case resulting in death is calculated and it is on average 1.34 times higher in knife attacks than in gun attacks.

References

  1. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02014?OpenDocument, then open Data Cube: Victims of Crime, Australia ; Table 4
  2. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02009?OpenDocument, then open Data Cube: VICTIMS, Australia - Publication tables 2.1-2.8

The fact that a lengthy explanation of the methodology for this calculation is necessary is evidence that it violates WP:NOR, and is original research. The assertion compiles information from primary sources, which is probably OK on its own, but then draws inferences from that data based on calculations. Why these numbers or these calculations? If a secondary source made the same conclusion then it'd be OK. Felsic2 (talk) 16:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, we can't go performing anything more than routine calculations, otherwise it'll be OR. Stickee (talk) 02:26, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

The result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. It is WP:CALC not OR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antihypocritic (talk • contribs) 11:27, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

This is reinserted under the heading "Measuring the effects of firearms laws in Australia". It is not NPOV to ignore general rates of homicide or homicide by other weapons when evaluating gun control measures.Antihypocritic (talk) 11:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

SYNTH is not numerical summarization, See WP:SYNTHNOT. ABS is a RS.Antihypocritic (talk) 12:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

If you're having to perform a numerical analysis, then it's original research. Stickee (talk) 12:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Please see WP:SYNTHNOT and also WP:AVRC Antihypocritic (talk) 12:21, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

One of the reasons that this is original research is that you're making an analysis, or a set of calculations, that no reliable secondary source has made. I could perform some simple calculations comparing gun violence to stock market indices, and it would be OR for the same reason. Misplaced Pages editors should reflect what the sources say, not create new conclusions on our own. Felsic2 (talk) 23:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

If nothing else, the calculations in the paragraph quoted above are self-evidently wrong. It says (with my emphasis here:

... knife attacks are also more deadly. ... there was a 1.34 times greater chance of dying if attacked with a knife than of dying if attacked with a gun. ... adding the number of murders and attempted murders, ... to give a total number of attacks ...

The calculations describe the chance of dying in a murder or attempted murder - but that is not all attacks. An attacker may only seek to injure, not kill; the calculations as described do not include those attacks. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:30, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you to those who have endeavoured to guide me about this edit. I thought that I was answering the various points as things developed. Obviously I have not done this adequately. CamV8 tried to guide me to this talk page to discuss. Belatedly I am taking that advice. Some things I could have made clearer in response to points and policies that have been referred to by other editors;

CamV8 suggested knife violence was not relevant to an article about gun control. I think I answered that with my summary when I reinserted. I submit that to consider alternative non-firearm homicide methods in a section headed “Measuring the effects of firearms laws in Australia” of an article on gun control must be relevant to the article if it is to be NPOV. Indeed elsewhere in the article there is reference to non-firearm suicide and non-firearm homicide.

CamV8 also cited the WP:RS policy. There is only one source involved and that is the Australian Bureau of Statistics. I submit that it must be taken as a reliable source. The ABS is already the subject of a number of citations in the article.

Other points raised are all to do with whether my edit was Original Research or proper use of a Primary source. I thank Felsic2 for the time taken to give an example of what would be Original Research because I think it reveals what might have been a misunderstanding of my source and what I was doing. My using two citations may have given the false impression that I was taking two sources and making some analysis of the kind Felsic2 mentions in the example.

I reiterate, there is only one source, the ABS. Also I am referring to only one series of ABS statistics, that is; “VICTIMS, Use of weapon in commission of offence.” The fact that I used two citations was because that was needed to see the full time series. One cited report deals with years 2001 to 2009 the other with subsequent years. (There was an error in the citation for later years because it did not cover the 2015 year and that needs to be fixed.) I am not combining material from multiple sources.

I did not draw any interpretation or conclusion from the statistics, the facts in my edit are prima facie. I only performed a calculation to add the numbers, calculate percentages and compare them. I submit that according to Misplaced Pages policy routine calculations such as these do not count as original research.

Policy is that Primary Sources that have been reputably published may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. I submit that the ABS is a reputable publisher and I have not misused the source.

Finally Mitch Ames made the point that attacks made with the intention only to injure are not included in the statistics I quoted and that therefore the calculations are wrong. Mitch Ames is correct to the extent that the edit should have made it clear that the calculations only concern attacks made with murderous intent.

I look forward to further comments.Antihypocritic (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

"There is only one source involved": It doesn't matter if it's one source, if you're making a comparison of two indices/values that isn't performed by the reliable reliable source, it's OR. To rephrase for clarity: we cannot compare, only RSs can. Stickee (talk) 05:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
"... the calculations only concern attacks made with murderous intent ..."
That's still not correct. According to Murder (Australian law) a person may commit murder in some cases (eg when intending to inflict grievous bodily harm) even when not intending to kill, ie "murderous intent" is not a prerequisite for murder. In the ABS "murder" statistics we do not know how many of them involved "murderous intent" - some of the murders may have been the result of an intent to cause GBH, not murder. Thus we cannot make any statement about "murderous intent". Mitch Ames (talk) 03:46, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
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