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Taxi Driver page move

Earlier today, Lawrencegordon moved Taxi Driver to Taxi Driver (film) without consensus. Back in early February, he started a discussion on the article talk page, suggesting the move, to which both Lugnuts and I objected. Gordon never responded to the argument I made, but here he has moved the article anyway. The article should be moved back to its original location and Gordon should explain why he made a page move without consensus. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 17:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks like Lugnuts has taken care of it. I can't see an encyclopedic reason for the move, so unless Lawrencegordon can forumlate a statistical rationale then I don't foresee his proposal being successful. Betty Logan (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me...? Hehe. Looks like LG has form for recent page-move warring. I've pinged them on the article's talkpage and linked them to WP:RM, if they wish to make a formal request of it. Lugnuts 18:21, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Lugnuts. I think you reverted before I'd even finished my post here. At any rate, I think it's important to get the opinions of other editors in the Film Project and to encourage people to keep an eye out. I'd like to see him explain himself in some forum. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 22:53, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Looking at his talk page and his contributions, it looks like he's performed several page moves without consensus. His move of The Bride (Kill Bill) to Beatrix Kiddo was certainly against consensus and should be reversed. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 12:28, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I have moved it back. If he performs any more bold moves you are entitled to move them back without discussion. Betty Logan (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, from the sound of it, if he performs any more bold moves, he might need to be reported to ANI. He's already been warned three times, and now a fourth. Softlavender (talk) 14:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

His recent contributions have almost entirely been page moves. I checked a few of them and saw no discussion. The Beatrix Kiddo move goes against an old discussion on the subject, with no new discussion. He's clearly not getting the message. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 23:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

MOS:SURNAME

Before it goes any further, I'd like to get a few more opinions on whether our default in discussing characters in film articles should be to use the guideline at MOS:SURNAME or to ignore this and use forenames. It's becoming a bone of contention with a plot editor on the Zombi 2 article, and while I recall a similar discussion at Eraserhead in the past, I'm not sure how frequently or recently this has come up elsewhere. Obviously my preference is to stick with surnames when they're unambiguous, as it keeps the project as a whole more consistent and maintains a more encyclopaedic tone (it is also jarring to discuss characters by forename, but then cast and crew by surname, in the same article), but what is the consensus? GRAPPLE 22:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I view MOS:SURNAME and the whole of MOS:BIO as being about real people. There it's customary to use surnames when discussing people you don't personally know, especailly in formal contexts like an encyclopedia. Fictional characters are treated differently and their surnames are often mentioned rarely if at all. We should help the reader identify the character by mainly using the name the character is best known by whether it's a forename, surname, nickname, code name, pseudonym, or whatever. For example, Seinfeld#Characters says Kramer about Cosmo Kramer but Elaine about Elaine Benes. Viewers of the show would find it odd to say Cosmo or Benes, and many casual viewers wouldn't even know who they are. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:05, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

This seems like an arbitrary distinction to me, especially in articles which will also discuss "real" people at the same time—with no real reasoning but "feeling" you get into a sort of two-tier approach to how to use names. I mean, I can understand WP:COMMONNAME being a factor in something like a long running television series, where a greater number of uses of a name will start to build a clear image of common usage, but over the course of a single film I don't think we're likely to get into the same situation as Elaine and Kramer. I mean, pulling some examples out of thin air, The Godfather would have cause to refer to Michael, Sonny and Vito since Corleone is ambiguous, but as a single work I don't see that Luca versus Brasi would win out in common usage; likewise I don't see that we'd be best served referring the main character of Psycho as just Norman, over Bates, but Marty from Marty or Martin from Martin would work the other way. I just don't see the merit in discounting how we use names throughout any other field just due to the element of fiction. GRAPPLE 23:18, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Prime Hunter. The film itself should be the primary reference regarding forenames/surnames, and the MOS does indeed refer to biographies of real people. It is not inherently more encyclopaedic to use surnames when discussing fictional characters. Would you refer to Romeo and Juliet as "Montague" and "Capulet" in the plot summary?? Of course not, because it wouldn't make sense. I'm afraid I think Grapple X is simply trying to maintain some sort of "ownership" over the article in question, and frankly I feel he/she is just being incredibly insular. 82.4.178.56 (talk)

Would you refer to Romeo and Juliet as "Montague" and "Capulet" in the plot summary?

As already mentioned, WP:COMMONNAME clearly allows for exceptions, in established circumstances, and even beyond that, the existence of multiple characters sharing those surnames within that work clearly makes them ambiguous in usage. It's far from a solid yardstick. It's certainly a far cry from one-off characters in a film seldom discussed and never revisited, who could hardly be argued to have any commonly-used names outside the work. As for questions of ownership, I simply watchlist pages that I've written to make sure they're not vandalised or allowed to drift away from assessed versions; if that's somehow considered problematic you'd have a lot of editors to draw over coals for it. GRAPPLE 23:41, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning that there was a lengthy television related discussion about this in regards to a single article, and the discussion did bring up MOS:SURNAME, over at Talk:Arrow (season 1)/Archive 1#First name or last name? and it was eventually subject to an RFC which closed as: "The general consensus is that the principle of WP:COMMONNAME should be followed, even though the relevant policy is a naming convention. This will likely mean most characters are referred to by first name and others by last name." It's possible to achieve a different consensus there, but it might be worth looking into first. Disclaimer, I was heavily involved in that discussion. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 23:49, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Common usage absolutely makes sense, but this would be more about situations where there is no ready example of common usage to fall back on—in the absence of an established practice, do we have cause to deviate from standard naming conventions or do we stick to them? GRAPPLE 00:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME would make the most sense. Pulp Fiction, for example, would always be Vincent and Jules, not Vega and Winnfield. I'm not familar with the zombie film to be honest, but seeing as it's a GA, maybe the opinion of those who helped get it to GA would be helpful? Lugnuts 18:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe MOS:IDENTITY is more appropriate in this context. Go with what the sources say, but if it is unclear or undocumented go with the principal form of identification within the film itself. Betty Logan (talk) 14:36, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Genres and fancruft (or not) at Cube film articles?

Anyone here keep an eye on the Cube (film series) and its assorted individual film articles? They don't have a lot of watchers but I may have stumbled onto a fancruft problem (and a genre bloat problem) at Cube 2: Hypercube and Cube Zero (the potentially crufty stuff is more a problem at the former than the latter). Honestly, that sort of thing is a little out of my wheelhouse. Those of you who know me know I'm usually just a text polisher and vandal watcher. So I'm not positive of my instincts on this and would appreciate a second look from anyone who gets more into the detailed stuff around here. Either way, I'm washing my hands of the situation. It's not like either article is all that well fleshed out to begin with so it's certainly not worth edit warring over. Millahnna (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding genres, I agree that there is a genre bloat problem. Per WP:FILMLEAD, we need to state the genre or sub-genre under which the film is verifiably classified. We would apply due weight for whichever is the most common classification. It means we should not mash up all identified genres into something that the film has never been called before, in this case the mouthful of "independent science fiction psychological horror thriller". We should keep it straightforward and use the lead section to elaborate distinct elements not covered in the opening sentence. Erik (talk | contrib) 15:35, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

A quick google search for the first film shows me that the Google summary for it lists "mystery/sci fi", imdb lists "drama/mystery/sci fi", Rotten Tomatoes has "Horror, Science Fiction & Fantasy", and the BFI just list "science fiction". I'd say it's a safe bet to just call it a science fiction film and let any prose make mention of whether it falls under any other genre. For reference,I listed two genres at Eraserhead based on the fact that they're the only genres actually discussed in the article, so you can make the cut that way. GRAPPLE 20:51, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Naming romanizations on Pokémon: The Movie 2000

There's a discussion regarding the name romanizations at Pokémon: The Movie 2000. The discussion is at Talk:Pokémon: The Movie 2000#Name romanizations. Input from project members would be appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:09, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Ghost in the Shell (2017 film): Beauty standards in Japan as a reason for Japanese natives not being outraged by the casting of Johansson

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Ghost in the Shell (2017 film)#Beauty standards in Japan as a reason for Japanese natives not being outraged by the film. A WP:Permalink for it is here. The issue concerns whether or not we should include the view that one reason that Japanese natives are not upset by the casting of Johansson is because of beauty standards (especially white beauty being considered ideal) in Japan. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:37, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Help reach a consensus about plot length at A.I. Artificial Intelligence

The plot section is currently sitting at about 790 words (792 according to the counter I use, 802 according to another editor); a little long based on a strict numbers interpretation of WP:FILMPLOT but well within the range that has been established on plots that have become exceptions for various reasons. Some folks have struck up a conversation on the talk page about removing the tag but an anon editor is insistent on keeping. There are only three or four people in the talk page convo (not the anon, that's my next stop), so I was hoping for more opinions to see if there is more that can be trimmed or if this will be one of the films that becomes an exception. Millahnna (talk) 19:33, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

It's usually easy to trim these plot summaries down to 700 words. People use too many words to say simple things, like, "They decide to go to the city, where they eat some food". This can rephrased as, "After entering the city, they eat." It's almost the exact same thing but uses half the words. I posted a streamlined version of the plot to the talk page. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:33, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Jon done? MapReader (talk) 14:35, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The Witness (201x film)

The Witness (2016 film) begins "The Witness is a 2015 American documentary" (emphasis added); it was exhibited at the New York Film Festival in 2015, but saw general release in 2015. For whatever it's worth, IMDB labels it "The Witness (2015)".

1. Should it be named as a 2015 film, or it labelled correctly now and the lede and other text needs to be updated?

2. If it should be renamed, there is already a Chinese film at The Witness (2015 film). IMDB also calls this "The Witness (2015)", but includes the transliterated original Chinese title Wo Shi Zheng Ren, which my very rudimentary Mandarin translates to "I Am A Witness."

How should these articles be named and (if necessary) be disambiguated? Country of origin? Director name? Something else? TJRC (talk) 20:00, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• Wow, good question. I would go with The Witness (2015 Chinese film) for the latter. And call me ethno-centrist, but I think since this is English Misplaced Pages we might get away with moving the former to The Witness (2015 film) (especially since the original name of the Chinese film is Wo Shi Zheng Ren); alternatively The Witness (2015 American film). -- Softlavender (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• If one is clearly the primary subject, just disambiguate the other; if not, disambiguate both. A disproportionate number of page views or secondary sourcing on the topic is usually a good way to check this. GRAPPLE 20:44, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

It should be The Witness (2015 Chinese film) and The Witness (2015 American film) per WP:NCF if neither are the primary topic. Betty Logan (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah, looking at WP:NCF, I think that's it. On my part 1... is the US film considered a 2015 film by virtue of its festival release in 2015; or a 2016 film by virtue of its general release in 2016? TJRC (talk) 02:05, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

2015 per WP:FILMRELEASE. Betty Logan (talk) 02:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Concur with Betty. Happy to do the page moves, unless someone wants to drag it out at WP:RM. If there's no objections in the next 48hrs or so, I'll pick it up after Easter. Lugnuts 09:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

@TJRC: - all done. I guess that was 47hrs instead of the full 48, so if anyone would like to complain, please do. Lugnuts 07:43, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

LOL. ArbCom, ANI, or pistols at dawn? Softlavender (talk) 11:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Pistols! But only after I shoot into the air, and you shoot me in the leg. Lugnuts 12:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm. I was thinking more Russian, frankly. Onegin if you want a quick but desperately tragic end to it, or War & Peace if you merely want humiliation all around. Softlavender (talk) 10:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Category:Film auteurs at CfD

Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts 16:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Two articles on Timing

Could I have some people looking at the edit histories of Timing (manhwa)‎ and Timing (film), and get some input on whether or not the two articles should remain split? ~Mable (chat) 20:45, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

move discussion relisted

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:X2 (film)#Requested move 10 April 2017, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, Yashovardhan (talk) 16:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

RfC on the WP:ANDOR guideline

Hi, all. Opinions are needed on the following: Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#RfC: Should the WP:ANDOR guideline be softened to begin with "Avoid unless" wording or similar?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent move against WP:NCFILM of Batman (1989 film series)

Please see new discussion at Talk:Batman (1989–1997 film series)#Requested move 19 April 2017. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:TRAILER query

I'm curious what the regulars here think of the following (from Mom (film)). Is it consistent with the intentions of WP:TRAILER?

The First Look of Mom was unveiled at the Zee Cine Awards 2017 by Salman Khan who hailed Sridevi on stage as "a bigger star than the Khans". The actress made the First Look public on Twitter which went viral. Subsequently the Teaser of Mom clocked 1.2 million views on YouTube on the first day itself. It also met with a positive response in Pakistan.

Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I think for the most part, it is, since some basic description helps support the independent details (going viral, YouTube views, positive response). I would drop Khan's praise here, though. Erik (talk | contrib) 16:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Your response is appreciated. Perhaps I've been hardened in my role as gnome, but I'm having trouble understanding how the announcement of the first look (a preview, which would seem to qualify as mundane marketing) satisfies the bolded admonishment of WP:TRAILER? Do not merely identify and describe the content of customary marketing methods such as trailers, TV spots, radio ads, and posters. Same with saying that the actress promoted the first look on her Twitter page. Isn't that customary? And what is "viral"? That used to be more indicative of "whoa, this really took off unexpectedly", like that dancing Hamster, but now it's a default marketing buzzword for anything that received an arbitrary number of views. It seems far less noteworthy when major companies with substantial budgets are able to fund "viral" campaigns. Even the YouTube view count seems trivial to me without context as to why the numbers are noteworthy. What number of views did the last Hindi film preview get? How do I know 1.2 million views is noteworthy? The reception in Pakistan seems quite relevant, because it's unexpected for an Indian film. Anyhow, I could use a refresher course on WP:TRAILER. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:29, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb, I missed this earlier. What you quoted was in response to attempts to list every marketing tactic. A lot of tactics do not get mentioned by secondary sources, and even if secondary sources mention them, it is usually descriptive. So I think the idea is that there has to be something substantial in how a secondary source covers a marketing tactic, in this case noting that it went viral, that it got 1.2 million views, and that it got a positive response in Pakistan. It does not necessarily mean that such details have to be included now, but there is a better rationale for it. Such details can still be excluded if there is consensus that determines that it is not of value to include in the article. I tend to be more inclusive in this regard if secondary sources found fit to do more than to describe the newest marketing. Erik (talk | contrib) 21:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi Erik, I'm not sure if I really get your point about the guideline being intended to address every marketing tactic, since my interpretation of WP:TRAILER tells me that it wants us to exclude mundane marketing tactics rather than the off-the-wall ones. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your response? Maybe restating my query will help? The bolded print from the MOS seems to say that customary marketing (like trailers and posters) should not be included unless there's some beyond-the-norm reason to do so, like the uniqueness of the Cloverfield ad campaign. The prose I quoted from the Mom article is talking about first looks (mundane posters) and a mundane trailer. I don't see how Sridevi tweeting about the film would be noteworthy, since it would be idiotic for an actor on social media to not tweet about the film they're in. Her post going "viral" is actually a bit of an overreach, since the source says "trending", which is also fluffy on account of how vague "trending" is. (Also, the post has 3,032 likes. How is that "trending" or "viral" in a nation where 422 million allegedly speak Hindi?) I also don't see how Shah Rukh Khan's praise of Sridevi serves as anything but promotional fluff. Though I know Indian cinema isn't an area that most of the community has much experience in, I'd propose that the above content would be akin to writing:

"The preview poster of Sample Film was unveiled at the Prestigous Awards 2017 by Tom Cruise who hailed Scarlett Johansson on stage as "a bigger star" than himself. Johansson announced the preview poster on Twitter, which went viral. Subsequently the teaser of Sample Film clocked 1.2 million views on YouTube on the first day itself. It also met with a positive response in Canada."

Every film releases a poster. Every film releases a trailer. Every film's acting staff does the interview circuit and gushes about how wonderful everyone was to work with and what an honor it was, blah blah blah. Everything is "viral" and the media is a complicit, willing participant in a film's promotion because it means clicks for them, so does the mere mention by a secondary source necessitate inclusion? So, basically, my interpretation of WP:TRAILER is that we would not include marketing techniques unless they were uniquely noteworthy. So no trailers, no posters, no tweets, no Selma Hayak spots on Letterman, unless any of those things got unique attention for being outside the norm. Joaquin Phoenix appears on Letterman in character, irritating the crap out of Letterman. A marketing campaign where random people get secret black envelopes and those people need to meet at X locale to solve the mystery to win tickets to the premiere of ____. etc. If members of the community are fine with introducing mundane marketing data about trailers and posters into articles, then I think the MOS should absolutely be rewritten to make clear what the specific expectations are, but in my opinion as an experienced gnome, this attitude would make Misplaced Pages a prime place to promote films, which is already happening far and wide in Indian cinema articles. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that coverage by secondary sources necessitates inclusion. I find coverage that includes an independent observation to be the minimum criteria that we can start working with. In regard to trailers, I think there has been more such coverage recently, especially to compare one trailer to other ones. I definitely don't endorse the "bigger star" detail myself. We can debate the particulars of the number of views or a country's general response. For what it's worth, my general approach has been to build up "Marketing" sections based on such coverage, and later on, I may decide to strip them down especially when the overall coverage is pretty uninteresting. In some cases, I think I have removed them entirely. You're right that I'm not familiar with Indian cinema. Is there an ideal "Marketing" section in an Indian film article to consider? We can go to WT:MOSFILM to discuss re-wording the guidelines, but I don't think the current one prevents you from taking out that passage. We can just talk about each particular detail. I don't see any basis for the "bigger star" detail, but I see how the number of views could be discounted if it is not being compared. (Recent articles about trailer views tend to rank them, so that kind of comparison is of greater independent value.) What would you like to do? Have consensus on the details or discuss general re-wording in the guidelines? Erik (talk | contrib) 14:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Is The Beguiled a remake?

There is currently a discussion going on at Talk:The Beguiled (2017 film) as to whether the film should be considered a remake. Walter Sobchak0 argues that it is, changing the article twice before posting on the talk page to make his case. He posted on the talk page earlier today, but it was a rant against Hollywood's lack of imagination and I deleted it. I responded that it is not a remake, that it is an original film based on the same source material, which is not the same thing. I'd like to get some other editor's opinions, please, because this is already contentious and has the potential to become more so. Thanks. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 21:12, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Rolling Stone calls it a remake. Variety calls it a remake. Slate calls it a remake. Indiewire calls it a remake. He may be ranting, but reliable sources seem to agree it is a remake. These are all from the first two pages of a google search, and there's dozens more using the term. There seems broad agreement in reliable sources. Regardless of the user's poor behavior, sources use the word remake liberally. --Jayron32 01:32, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

The terminology is being thrown around loosely. We don't call the umpteenth Hamlet adaptation a "remake", it's an adaptation. The new Beguiled film is probably being referred to as a "remake" simply because it's more famous as a film. There is no evidence as far as I can see that it is in fact a remake—in the sense that it reuses the creative elements of 1971 film—and not in fact just another adaptation of the same novel. Betty Logan (talk) 01:40, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Betty's read of the situation. The film has a new screenplay, written by Sofia Coppola, it uses no elements of the original film. The word "remake" is being used incorrectly.

And, frankly, I am very concerned about Sobchak's behavior, since his response to every challenge is to become more abusive. Take a look at his comments on the talk page. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 01:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

At Death Race (film), there was an edit war about whether the film was a prequel or a remake (like forever ago, might still be on the talk page). Media sources intermixed the terminology and it was easy to see it either way for many people. The film's creator, however, said that he thought of it like a prequel or some such. This led to confusion about what to call it in the lead of the wiki article, though. The compromise we reached was to just literally explain that; the film is described by many critics as a remake but the creator said he thought of it as blah blah blah. Would something like that work here? All you need are one or two notable sources discussing it as an adaptation and you can say something like, the film was referred to as a remake in multiple media outlets though blah blah and blah blah thought blah. Just throwing it out there. Millahnna (talk) 02:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Assignation of the "prequel" moniker is an assertion about the in-universe continuity which in many cases is down to the interpretation of the viewer. To state that something is a remake is a claim with a factual basis that can be proven or disproven. To refer to something as a "remake of Work X" is to essentially credit Work X as the source material and the credits in this case don't do that. According to IMDB the writing credits go to Sofia Coppola and the novel, so "remake" in this context is simply a misnomer. Betty Logan (talk) 02:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Wow, some extreme comments there from Walter. I see he's been warned by Betty on their talkpage. The rope is dangling. And FWIW, using the same source material for two different films doesn't make the latter a remake of the former. Lugnuts 08:33, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

It's a classy insult though. I have made a mental note of it, I am sure it will come in useful at some point. Betty Logan (talk) 08:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I think this now has enough eyes/input directly from the Film Project (thanks to all involved), so I've been bold and moved the core discussion back to the article's talkpage. Hope that's OK. Lugnuts 18:12, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

most expensive non-English films ever made

Anyone even MODERATELY interested in film knows that, in terms of 1967 U.S. dollars, the RUSSIAN "War and Peace" will probably always be the most expensive film ever made, using thousands of period costumed Soviet troops and six hours long. One can debate the at times melodramatic acting or the too-old casting of Bondarchuk AND his wife, but a low-estimate $250,000,000 film will probably remain #1 for a long long time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3023:815:4E00:793A:2850:7432:C4F5 (talk) 02:47, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

That's an urban legend which has been promulgated by lazy sources. It is not uncommon to find sources reporting that adjusted for inflation War & Peace cost $700 million in today's dollars, such as in this LA Times article. That figure is based on a reported cost of $100 million back in 1968. However, the $100 million figure has since been debunked by the release of the official financial records. War_and_Peace_(film_series)#Budget explains that the film cost only 8.3 million rubles (equivalent to $9.2 million in 1967), which it notes would be equivalent to $67 million in 2011. The $100 million figure (and $700 million inflation adjusted figure) was just Soviet propaganda. It's worth noting that if it had indeed cost $100 million that would have been more than three times the production cost of Cleopatra, which was the most expensive film ever made up to that point. Betty Logan (talk) 03:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Upcoming "420 collaboration"

You are invited to participate in the upcoming "420 collaboration", which is being held from Saturday, April 15 to Sunday, April 30, and especially on April 20, 2017! The purpose of the collaboration, which is being organized by WikiProject Cannabis, is to create and improve cannabis-related content at Misplaced Pages and other Wikimedia projects in a variety of fields, including: culture, health, hemp, history, medicine, politics, and religion. WikiProject Film participants may be particularly interested in the following categories: Category:Films about cannabis and Category:Documentary films about cannabis. For more information about this campaign, and to learn how you can help improve Misplaced Pages, please visit the "420 collaboration" page.

---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:12, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Item was removed by a non-WPFILM editor who later retracted his over-zealousness in removing this call for collaboration from dozens of pages. This collab is definitely related to WPFILM, we have many ways film enthusiasts could help out, including a number of redlinks for cannabis-related films. Further, we have articles on films like The Marihuana Story that lack a plot outline, and a large number of films that lack a poster/screenshot to illustrate the article. Hope some folks here might find the crossover topic interesting and help out! Goonsquad LCpl Mulvaney (talk) 06:31, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protection for Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (films)

Is there any chance we can get this permanently semi-protected? It's not an article and there is no cause for IPs to edit it. If you look through the history virtually every IP that has ever edited it has been reverted. Substantive changes should always be discussed anyway, and then a registered editor can install them if necessary. Betty Logan (talk) 12:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Betty Logan, I took a look at the editing history and found that the page wouldn't qualify for temporary semi-protection (which would be the first course of action.) There is simply not enough vandalism. In fact, during the past two years only a single static IP has edited the page -- and that IP's edits appear to be more about content disagreements than actual vandalism. So, I would decline page-protection there. — CactusWriter 15:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Sadly this has become the standard response to page protection of late. It's obviously a better use of established editors' time to pick through some IP edits rather than stopping them in the first place. Lugnuts 17:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually, it's always been a foundational policy of Misplaced Pages not to protect pages because of a content dispute with a lone editor. If you truly believe the IP editor (an "established" account of ~2 years and more than 3000 edits) is persistently vandalizing and disrupting pages, take it to ANI. — CactusWriter 19:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

And waste even more time over this IP user? No thanks. I guess an IP with 3,000 edits across two years is better than two registered users with more than 20 years and 660,000 edits between them. Lugnuts 19:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Not better, but equal. Every case is made only on its merits, and if you can't do that, than you don't have one. — CactusWriter 20:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Well if you looked a bit more closely at this, pretty much every single edit this IP has made to this one page has been reverted and/or challenged on the talkpage. Forget about this 3,000 edits/2 years red-herring nonsense. It's about the disruption on this one page. You'll also missing the fact that this is a core page that applies across the whole film project. Users rely on this page to be correct when citing precedent for article names. Not to worry if the current version has been updated by a sneak IP edit that goes un-noticed for two years. Just like this. Lugnuts 07:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Based on my experience as a reviewer I'm assuming the answer would be the same but this type of page seems ideal for the pending edits type of protection. Is that a viable possibility? Millahnna (talk) 20:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes. I agree that pending page is a proper consideration here. And, you're correct: I had decided against that, too, because it shouldn't be "used to privilege registered users over unregistered users in content disputes." Of which this appeared to be the case. If the problem becomes persistent edit-warring or disruption, I would see it as a possibility. — CactusWriter 21:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

(The) Rack pack

Yesterday BBC 2 showed the movie mentioned above. Misplaced Pages does not have an article about this film. Due to restrictions I'm not able to make an article on Misplaced Pages myself, so could someone help me out on this? I was really surprised that it isn't included here, considering the fact that this the English Wiki... I'm from the Netherlands myself and snooker is such an unimportant sport here that I won't even bother to get it included on the Dutch one. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 15:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC) (O'Sullivan 4 ever!!!)

It's probably slipped under the radar with it debuting on BBC iplayer. I also belong to the Snooker project so I may as well kick it off. Betty Logan (talk) 15:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanx in advance! Oxygene7-13 (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Betty, I've already kicked off a stub at The Rack Pack but did think of you, having seen your snooker-related edits. Feel free to work off of the stub. Erik (talk | contrib) 15:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Ehm... That was fast!!! Thanks again. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 15:44, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks Erik. I'll probably do some work on this. It got a surprisingly large amount of media coverage in the UK despite debuting on iplayer. Betty Logan (talk) 15:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Oxygene7-13, I had an itch to create content after some recent reverting. :) Betty will work her magic on it! Erik (talk | contrib) 15:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

If this will keep up the pace as it did so far I might consider calling you guys "the rocket"(s)! Oxygene7-13 (talk) 15:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Are we allowed to add the iplayer link to this article? You can stream it for free in the UK if you have a TV licence (which virtually every household has) so it's like a very soft subscription service. Obviously people outside the UK can't access the material, so I was wondering what the rules are relating to this? Would it count as promotion? Betty Logan (talk) 16:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

  I think it could count as an official link. IMDb listed http://www.therackpacksite.com/ as the official website, but it is a dead link. However, there is WP:RICHMEDIA to consider. Does the iPlayer link provide any information besides the streaming? Erik (talk | contrib) 16:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

  The BBC's programme page might be a decent compromise. It has substantial supplementary content and a link that takes visitirs to the iplayer site if they want to watch the film. Betty Logan (talk) 16:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Columns, columns everywhere

I was just wondering if I'm the only person who has noticed the contributions of this anon editor. Their only contributions are to divide extremely short cast lists into absurd amounts of columns (I found one that was 4 columns for a list of all of 12 people, it was almost unreadable). And they are prolific.....dozens or more of these a day. Nothing they are doing is in violation of any specific rules, policies, or guidelines to my knowledge and I'm operating under the assumption that they are legitimately trying to be helpful. But it certainly messes with readability on some articles. I've dropped a warning for disruptive editing but I'm honestly not sure that I should have. SUggestions? Millahnna (talk) 20:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I think the best practice in having multiple columns is to use the parameter "30em" rather than a set number of columns. This would break up a list into a certain number of columns based on screen width. I assume the IP editor is adding a set number based on what they see, which they shouldn't. In some cases, multiple columns can be warranted because otherwise there is extraneous white space, but we should encourage use of "30em". Erik (talk | contrib) 20:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I can't seem to find proof that "30em" is the best value to use. Not sure how to determine which em value is best to use. Erik (talk | contrib) 20:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I frequently see 25 em settings which haven't caused me any problems as a reader on multiple mobile devices and desktop but that could just be a fluke on my part. I seem to recall an age old conversation about that sort of thing back in 2010 or so when I was super active but I haven't gone searching in our archives here for it. It may very well have been on a specific article page or even over at the TV project for all I know. This getting old crap is for the birds and my bad memory. Millahnna (talk) 20:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Why do you think it is a fluke? 25em is probably barely different from 30em and is supposed to be based on screen width, so it seems like it is doing the job well. So if the IP editor wants to make column-related edits, they could use em values instead. They may not realize that forcing 3 columns will make it look terrible on mobile. Erik (talk | contrib) 20:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Basically because I'm just getting over a head cold and can't quite think through the full ramifications of the setting right now. Just knowing that displays between devices and browsers can vary as wildly as they do, my assumption is that it is entirely possible it looks terribad to someone while still looking ok on the four devices I've used most in the last few years. Millahnna (talk) 20:58, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I think any use of the em value is better than requiring the columns to be greater than one everywhere. This is reflected in Template:Div col that says cols= is deprecated, "Now deprecated, as colwidth below is better suited to flexible formatting for a variety of display screen sizes (from mobile phones, tablets, etc to widescreen cinema-style displays)". It says to use colwidth= because it "Specifies the minimum width of the columns and determines automatically the number of columns based on screen width (i.e. more columns will be shown on wider displays). Overrides cols. Specified in any CSS unit, for instance in em, about the width of a capital 'M', e.g, colwidth=20em". Erik (talk | contrib) 21:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm thinking that when I inevitably bump into the anon again, I'll suggest using that paremeter for them (no idea if they see their talk page messages yet). And in my cleanup efforts behind them (where warranted, anyway, some of the changes have seemed fine) I'll switch to using that myself. When I've fixed it recently I've either just knocked out the columns entirely or dropped down to two as appropriate. Millahnna (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Also lol at you beating me to IP's talk page by minutes. CHeers. As always, your input is greatly appreciated when I can feel my stupid temper getting the better of me. Millahnna (talk) 21:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hey, sorry I seem to be causing everybody hassle here. I sincerely apologise for the inconvenience I have caused everyone, so from now on I will try to refrain from the whole dividing thing in future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.158.34 (talk) 21:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

It's all good. It's obvious you're trying to help. I just wasn't sure how best to proceed. I mostly play with awkward text and forget lots of wiki code frequently. I think that colwidth parameter will be super helpful to both of us. Apologies if I got too snarky with my edits. Millahnna (talk) 22:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi Erik and Millahnna. I wanted to make you aware of something that I learned a month or so ago. As someone with aging eyes (an other body parts-heehee) I have my computer set at 133% to make reading and editing our articles easier/possible. When 30em is used my screen won't show any columns - of course those with lower settings will see them. They show up when 25em or less are used. Thus, if i add them to a cast list I will use that number. I don't know that this has any relevance to what you are doing I just wanted to make you aware of it on the off chance. Cheers to all. MarnetteD|Talk 23:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Marnette and I recently found 25em to be more effective than 30em. You can view the conversation at User_talk:Betty_Logan#Not_sure_what_is_going_on and the result at . So while there is hardly any visual difference at all for normal font sizes it allows a bit of breathing room for readers who have their fonts set above default size. Obviously if they are set lower then it's not an issue. Betty Logan (talk) 03:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

• Further comment I have seen editors remove column divides altogether (Hayal12 is a persistent offender and refuses to engage in discussion over it) so you get a single column list. Personally I think on wide displays—1366 pixels and above—this looks aesthetically poor. It generally means that when it comes to the cast section that readers with wide displays have more whitespace on their monitor than text. It also means that the reader will usually have to unnecessarily scroll down to see the whole list. The whole point of setting column dividers using the "em" format is that it allows the number of columns to dynamically adapt to the user's browser. If you have an ipad the list will set to one column, if you are on a 1024 screen two columns, a 1600 display three columns and so on. It is not unusual to see editors hardcode the number of columns—this is common with image sizes too—to what looks best on their own display. Dynamically set columns maximise browser adaptability. This works best when there is a large cast list, such as at War_and_Peace_(film_series)#Cast. On the other hand I concede that multiple columns look aesthetically poor when when cast lists are small; as a rule of thumb the number of rows should exceed the number of columns. As Millahnna points out, 12 people spread across four columns (so three rows then) doesn't look good. In the case of small casts I prefer the box format such as the one used Jaws_(film)#Casting, which does a much better job of integrating the information into the article. It's a good format for up to about a dozen names. Betty Logan (talk) 04:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

  Betty Logan, MarnetteD, I'd be glad to use 25em going forward. Do we perhaps want to have a "Columns" section at MOS:FILM under "Non-prose components"? We could just reference Template:Reflist for "References" and and Template:Div col for "Cast". We can talk about em values for both and encourage them for any other lists that may appear in a film article. Seems like this structuring knowledge is not as much in the open as it could be. Erik (talk | contrib) 15:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I think adding some guidance to the MOS on this issue would be a good idea. Betty Logan (talk) 15:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Casablanca (film)/archive2

Please note this FA article is now at FA review due to problems listed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

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