Talk:Gun laws of Australia - Misplaced Pages

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On 21 April 2008, Gun laws of Australia was linked from Slashdot, a high-traffic website. (Traffic)

All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

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2000 NRA Controversy

I'm wondering if this section of the article could be expanded some more? Since the NRA responded to the Attorney General's criticisms not with a retraction, but rather a series of 1997/98 figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and local (Australian) newspaper articles which appeared to support their original claims. Yet in its current state this entry gives the impression that Daryl Williams duly reprimanded the NRA for spreading misinformation and that the story ended there.

That's also one example of a theme which I think the entry could explore more, namely the role Australian gun politics within the broader context of an international debate. Another such example would be televised debate between Rebecca Peters (who went on to work with IANSA following the 1996 reforms) and Wayne LaPierre in 2004. The Australian laws are now nearly 13 years old, and both sides within the international debate (whether in the US, Canada, the UK, Switzerland, etc) have used their own interpretations of these laws in their local political efforts. I'm not suggesting we need to go about listing a series of specific cases, just help to locate our debate within the larger picture.--TheCappy (talk) 07:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there was more to say but the NRA effort really did suck. It was only propaganda to support their own prejudices, and discredited the NRA brand in Australia (not that our rampant political correctness gave them any credit you understand!) Australian media did not give their response the time of day, which might actually be good - it didn't help at all.

In the broader context, now is the time we should be able to make a contribution, and we are. WiSH have done well at South Pacific arms control conferences for instance.

If you have some useful stuff to add, go for it. I think that country paper story claiming '300% rise in murders' is a great example of the sort of bad work the debate is riddled with. ChrisPer (talk) 09:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd also suggest- if anyone can find a reference- that mentioning the NRA's meddling has also hurt the NRAA (National Rifle Association of Australia), which is entirely unrelated to, and has totally separate goals and aims from, the US-based NRA. But they've got similar names, which is enough for some people, alas. Commander Zulu (talk) 09:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite happy for the NRA to keep involving themselves, since any debate about the role of small arms in a society is pretty disingenuous if (like the SSAA) it never addresses the elephant in the room; namely their function in the defense of individual life and liberty.

It's fascinating how successful Australian gun control advocates have been in marginalising that position, to the extent that local shooters organisations aren't even willing to contest it for fear of being labeled extremists, and yet it is the raison d'être for small arms. So at least the NRA are keeping it in the collective consciousness until our local debate matures enough to start addressing it seriously.

Anyway they're personal musings; not something for a Misplaced Pages entry.--TheCappy (talk) 12:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

They are curious musings since Australians with less firearms have more life and liberty than Americans with more firearms. The US murder rate is three times ours. The US incarceration rate at ~770/100k is ~5-10 times any other industrialised nation (generally 50-150). 1 in 100 adults are currently in prison over there - a perhaps more salient explanation for their recent decrease in crime. As for personal freedoms, we're just as free here as over there, we just talk about it far, far less. There are a few things you can't do over here, a few you can't do over there, none of which are particularly necessary to getting on with your life. -59.167.194.48 (talk) 10:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It is nothing but an opinion as to whether Americans or Australians have more "life and liberty." By your own figures of ~770 people incarcerated per 100,000, your statement that "1 in 100 adults are 'currently' in prison over there" is wrong. However, comparing Australia and the United States is impossible. For starters, the U.S. population is roughly 10X Australia's and the group making up the greatest percentage of U.S. inmates, African-Americans, outnumber the entire population of Australia. Also, the U.S. illegal alien population numbers at least 35% of the entire population of Australia and many estimates have this group numbering over 20 million which would be well over 50% of Australia's population. Finally, the areas in the U.S. from which the most people are incarcerated, have the fewest guns per capita, so U.S. crime and incarceration rates should have no bearing on Australian gun law politics.TL36 (talk) 02:54, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Welcome TL36! Unfortunately the person you are disputing with made their remarks about 5 years ago and in any case wasn't worth arguing with in this venue. Feel free to suggest improvements for the article.ChrisPer (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Great to have you with us! How about getting a user name and logging in? Your stats give us lots of diversions to follow, (eg Americans kill more people with non-gun methods than we do in total, so their society plainly is more to blame than guns alone) but most importantly please continue to help create a quality NPOV article! ChrisPer (talk) 03:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

why you talking about NRA thats not australian! --Kkkkkk8888 (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Recent changes leave Port Arthur paragraphs indecipherable.

The numerous changes in the last two days have left terrible flow, and it's difficult to understand what the last few paragraphs in this section are saying at all. Several pieces of information have been included that decrease understanding instead of increasing it, for instance, what does the decreasing percentage of attacks using firearms matter if the percentage of attacks does not itself decrease?

It also appears (and I don't have the time to find out) that several more "facts" have been added that are not from the cited sources, or if they are, it's not clear how so.

My suggestion would be to revert to the edit labeled something like "added context" from Dec 4, but maybe I'm biased or too lazy to do all the typing myself. 2602:306:374D:8D60:C911:5303:9041:D7B9 (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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Port Arthur massacre and its consequences-section

I rewrote the part with was subject to an edit conflicht now, because the existing text was partially editorializing and grossly misrepresenting its main source (the cnn article). An even better source actually linked in the cnn article is a 50 page paper by Neil/Leigh from 2012 (Do Gun Buybacks Save Lives?), which could be used to expand that paragraph.--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Data source for chart?

The chart displayed approximately lined up with section 5 claims to show the murder rate from 1993 to 2014. However, neither of the url sources embedded at the bottom of the chart contain any data covering that interval. Furthermore, random sampling of the years shows that the values are incorrect, for example, the graph shows the 1993 homicide rate as slightly over 1.6/100k, while the actual value is 1.88/100k; the 2011 rate is shown as about 1.1/100k, while the actual value is 1.21/100k.

Please provide sources for all the data. As it stands it's synthesis, and it's using incorrect values. Anastrophe (talk) 03:34, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Removing until properly sourced. Anastrophe (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Our safety First

Its great they banned guns to protect us from a 30 deaths in 100 years case. When will the even more deadly weapon trucks be banned? Why wont the politicians protect us from trucks? Its not as if they are the smoking industry or alcohol industry which cost many times more lives each year and the gov losses Billions each year on. Or even the deadly privately owned weapons called cars which causes far more killing and damage each year and also the gov loses even more money on? Is guns and drugs the only thing the gov will ban and stop them causing any problems? Maybe the should make crimes illegal then they wont happen either.--Kkkkkk8888 (talk) 10:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Make sure what you say on this talk page is to improve the article as per WP:Talk --SwiftyPeep (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Gun control template

Per this discussion on the template talk page, I am removing the Gun politics by country template from this article, and this article from the template, because the article is not about politics. Scolaire (talk) 16:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

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This article does not outline THE ACTUAL GUN LAWS IN AUSTRALIA.

What specific allowances/restrictions are in place? Somebody please elaborate beyond firearm classification. Remember that politics is not the only point of interest in this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:1ACE:600:7996:BEB0:26E5:73C0 (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

ABS statistics

According to ABS statistics, not only are murders by knife attacks in Australia more common than murders by gun attacks but knife attacks are also more deadly. For the years 2001 to 2015 there was a 1.34 times greater chance of dying if attacked with a knife than of dying if attacked with a gun. The first step of the calculation is made by adding the number of murders and attempted murders, firstly in gun attacks and then in knife attacks to give a total number of attacks for each type of weapon. Then the percentage of attacks in each case resulting in death is calculated and it is on average 1.34 times higher in knife attacks than in gun attacks.

References

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02014?OpenDocument, then open Data Cube: Victims of Crime, Australia ; Table 4
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02009?OpenDocument, then open Data Cube: VICTIMS, Australia - Publication tables 2.1-2.8

The fact that a lengthy explanation of the methodology for this calculation is necessary is evidence that it violates WP:NOR, and is original research. The assertion compiles information from primary sources, which is probably OK on its own, but then draws inferences from that data based on calculations. Why these numbers or these calculations? If a secondary source made the same conclusion then it'd be OK. Felsic2 (talk) 16:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, we can't go performing anything more than routine calculations, otherwise it'll be OR. Stickee (talk) 02:26, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

The result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. It is WP:CALC not OR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antihypocritic (talk • contribs) 11:27, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

This is reinserted under the heading "Measuring the effects of firearms laws in Australia". It is not NPOV to ignore general rates of homicide or homicide by other weapons when evaluating gun control measures.Antihypocritic (talk) 11:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

SYNTH is not numerical summarization, See WP:SYNTHNOT. ABS is a RS.Antihypocritic (talk) 12:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

If you're having to perform a numerical analysis, then it's original research. Stickee (talk) 12:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Please see WP:SYNTHNOT and also WP:AVRC Antihypocritic (talk) 12:21, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

One of the reasons that this is original research is that you're making an analysis, or a set of calculations, that no reliable secondary source has made. I could perform some simple calculations comparing gun violence to stock market indices, and it would be OR for the same reason. Misplaced Pages editors should reflect what the sources say, not create new conclusions on our own. Felsic2 (talk) 23:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

If nothing else, the calculations in the paragraph quoted above are self-evidently wrong. It says (with my emphasis here:

... knife attacks are also more deadly. ... there was a 1.34 times greater chance of dying if attacked with a knife than of dying if attacked with a gun. ... adding the number of murders and attempted murders, ... to give a total number of attacks ...

The calculations describe the chance of dying in a murder or attempted murder - but that is not all attacks. An attacker may only seek to injure, not kill; the calculations as described do not include those attacks. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:30, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you to those who have endeavoured to guide me about this edit. I thought that I was answering the various points as things developed. Obviously I have not done this adequately. CamV8 tried to guide me to this talk page to discuss. Belatedly I am taking that advice. Some things I could have made clearer in response to points and policies that have been referred to by other editors;

CamV8 suggested knife violence was not relevant to an article about gun control. I think I answered that with my summary when I reinserted. I submit that to consider alternative non-firearm homicide methods in a section headed “Measuring the effects of firearms laws in Australia” of an article on gun control must be relevant to the article if it is to be NPOV. Indeed elsewhere in the article there is reference to non-firearm suicide and non-firearm homicide.

CamV8 also cited the WP:RS policy. There is only one source involved and that is the Australian Bureau of Statistics. I submit that it must be taken as a reliable source. The ABS is already the subject of a number of citations in the article.

Other points raised are all to do with whether my edit was Original Research or proper use of a Primary source. I thank Felsic2 for the time taken to give an example of what would be Original Research because I think it reveals what might have been a misunderstanding of my source and what I was doing. My using two citations may have given the false impression that I was taking two sources and making some analysis of the kind Felsic2 mentions in the example.

I reiterate, there is only one source, the ABS. Also I am referring to only one series of ABS statistics, that is; “VICTIMS, Use of weapon in commission of offence.” The fact that I used two citations was because that was needed to see the full time series. One cited report deals with years 2001 to 2009 the other with subsequent years. (There was an error in the citation for later years because it did not cover the 2015 year and that needs to be fixed.) I am not combining material from multiple sources.

I did not draw any interpretation or conclusion from the statistics, the facts in my edit are prima facie. I only performed a calculation to add the numbers, calculate percentages and compare them. I submit that according to Misplaced Pages policy routine calculations such as these do not count as original research.

Policy is that Primary Sources that have been reputably published may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. I submit that the ABS is a reputable publisher and I have not misused the source.

Finally Mitch Ames made the point that attacks made with the intention only to injure are not included in the statistics I quoted and that therefore the calculations are wrong. Mitch Ames is correct to the extent that the edit should have made it clear that the calculations only concern attacks made with murderous intent.

I look forward to further comments.Antihypocritic (talk) 09:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

"There is only one source involved": It doesn't matter if it's one source, if you're making a comparison of two indices/values that isn't performed by the reliable reliable source, it's OR. To rephrase for clarity: we cannot compare, only RSs can. Stickee (talk) 05:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

"... the calculations only concern attacks made with murderous intent ..."
That's still not correct. According to Murder (Australian law) a person may commit murder in some cases (eg when intending to inflict grievous bodily harm) even when not intending to kill, ie "murderous intent" is not a prerequisite for murder. In the ABS "murder" statistics we do not know how many of them involved "murderous intent" - some of the murders may have been the result of an intent to cause GBH, not murder. Thus we cannot make any statement about "murderous intent". Mitch Ames (talk) 03:46, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

New edit will simply report ABS statisticsAntihypocritic (talk) 08:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I would advise you to paste your proposal here first, and make the edit later if there is a consensus here. Stickee (talk) 12:01, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

That's not any better. Your still adding across multiple years, then performing comparison of successful to unsuccessful, then creating a percentage, and finally placing the two methods side by side. Every single step is another set of OR that's being conducted. Stickee (talk) 05:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@Antihypocritic: I think that this is a lost cause, but as a good-faith attempt to rescue it... Perhaps if you try to tell us here (not in the article), in a short simple sentence, what point you are trying to make with these edits - then we might be able to find some way of achieving that goal, provided it's not OR or SYN.

For example your first attempt, as quoted at the start of this talk page section, could be summarised as "knife attacks are more deadly than gun attacks; you are more likely to be killed if attacked by a knife than a gun". Now we've already demonstrated that the sources you cite do not support that statement - but if you're actually trying to say something else, and that something else is supported by the references, then if we know what the point was, we'd have a better chance of being able to help you rather than fighting against you.

As I said, it may not be possible, given the data, but it might be worth a try. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

My most recent edit was; “The Australian Bureau of Statistics publishes data about victims of homicide that includes the type of weapon used. In the years 2001 to 2015 the total number of incidents of murder and attempted murder with a firearm was 1,436 and of those 530 were recorded as murder; that is a percentage of 36.9% where the victim died. For the same 15 year period the total number incidents of murder and attempted murder with a knife was 2399 and of those 1169 were recorded as murder; that is a percentage of 49.73% where the victim died.”

References

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02015?OpenDocument Download Data Cube; Victims of Homicide (Tables 22 to 30); - Then open table 24
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02009?OpenDocument Download Data Cube: VICTIMS, Australia - Publication tables 2.1-2.8; - Then open table 7

Instead of that I could have just mentioned the statistics for the latest 2015 year by stating; “In the year 2015 there were 57 incidents of murder and attempted murder with a firearm and of those incidents 27 were recorded as murder; that is a percentage of 47.37% where the victim died. Also in 2015 there were 109 incidents of murder and attempted murder with a knife and of those incidents 70 were recorded as murder; that is a higher percentage of 64.22% where the victim died.” However to put the information forward in the most accurate non cherry picking form I performed a routine calculation and added across the years. It should be noted that the ABS reports cited each contain data for a number of years.

Felsic2 on 30 March 2017 said; “…….The assertion compiles information from primary sources, which is probably OK on its own, but then draws inferences from that data based on calculations.” My latest edit simply compiled the information by addition as approved by Felsic2 and did not draw inferences. The inference is prima facie there in the ABS (reliable source) statistics.

Felsic2 on 28 March 2017 edited as; “According to ABS statistics, deadly knife attacks in Australia are more common than gun attacks. The percentage of murders by knife for the years 2001 to 2015 is 1.34 times higher than the percentage of gun murders.” Here we have Felsic2 making a comparison of percentages which is what I did in my first edit.

Stickee on 31 March 2017 said; “Agreed, we can't go performing anything more than routine calculations, otherwise it'll be OR.” Surely my latest edit must only be routine calculations. There is only addition and then the calculation of a percentage, I fail to see how this could not be other than routine calculation. It may be helpful if someone could give an explanation of why addition and percentage calculations are not to be considered routine in this particular instance.

Mitch Ames disagrees that ABS sources support his summary of my edit; "knife attacks are more deadly than gun attacks; you are more likely to be killed if attacked by a knife than a gun" and invites me to explain the point I am trying to make. To the contrary, the ABS source does prima facie show that an attack by a person wielding a knife more often results in death than an attack by a person wielding a gun. The points made by Mitch Ames earlier about whether the attacker only intended to injure and thus could not be said to have “murderous intent” and murder including attacks intended to cause grievous bodily harm are common to both knife and gun attacks and common to the charges of murder and attempted murder and so do not alter the import of the statistics. The point is the ABS statistics prima facie show that in Australia an attack by a person wielding a knife more often results in death than an attack by a person wielding a gun. I respectfully suggest that other editors should follow the links given in my last edit and see this for themselves.

So, in the light of the previous comments and edit of Felsic2 and Stickee, I have two questions; why are my additions and percentage calculations not to be considered routine and why is it not permissible to state the result of those calculations when they do nothing other than show what the ABS statistics prima facie are. Antihypocritic (talk) 12:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

the ABS source does prima facie show that an attack by a person wielding a knife more often results in death than an attack by a person wielding a gun. — Exactly which cells in those spreadsheets show the total number of all attacks with knife, and all attacks with gun? Ie, including all non-sexual assaults in 2001-2009, and those not related to homicide in 2010-2015. Without those figures, any general claim ("attack by a person wielding a knife/gun") has no basis. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

why are my additions and percentage calculations not to be considered routine — WP:CALC requires "consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious correct". In this case editors other than you do not appear to agree that the calculations are "obvious", and I have pointed out several times that they are not correct (eg they do not include all attacks/assaults). Mitch Ames (talk) 13:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Mitch Ames for again taking the time to focus my attention on the issues involved. You are correct in highlighting that the ABS spreadsheets I have cited do not show all attacks with knife or gun. The statistics are only of cases that have been adjudged as murder and attempted murder and reveal that in attacks in those circumstances death is more likely from knife wielders. The statement you have taken issue with was followed immediately in the same paragraph by comments I think show that context but perhaps I should have qualified it.

BUT my most recent deleted edit did not make any such statement. My edit merely mentioned the total numbers of incidents of murder and attempted murder and the percentage relationships of murder to the totals. It was for that reason I said that the result was prima facie in the statistics. I have done nothing other than quote those statistics in summation.

Mitch Ames partially quotes the WP:CALC policy. The full quote of policy is; “Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are some examples of routine calculations.” I understand that to mean that editors will act in good faith and not capriciously deny consensus to calculations that are obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources.

Mitch Ames claims the calculations are not correct (eg they do not include all attacks/assaults). This is confusion between the summation and the inference Mitch Ames believes I may have previously drawn although my last edit did not state any inference. The WP:CALC policy is as to the correctness of the calculation not the inference and I believe the calculations are correct.

By previous comments and an edit both Felsic2 and Stickee have shown a good faith willingness to accept routine calculations. That is why I asked; “why are my additions and percentage calculations not to be considered routine and why is it not permissible to state the result of those calculations when they do nothing other than show what the ABS statistics prima facie are?”. Surely the result of simply adding a column of numbers and showing the percentage relationship between those numbers in the original ABS tables without drawing any inference must just be basic arithmetic? Antihypocritic (talk) 09:24, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I have done nothing other than quote those statistics in summation. — You haven't just quoted the statistics, or even summarized them; you've calculated and presented a ratio (percentage who died) based on your selection of values, implying that the ratio has some meaning, even when you don't explicitly declare the meaning. Based on your previous edits and the fact that you haven't given us anything else (even when I explicitly asked) I'm assuming that the point that you're trying to make is that, in general, an attack by a knife is more likely to be fatal than an attack by a gun. If you're trying to make some other point, then please tell us what it is.

So we still have the problem that:

WP:CALC requires "consensus ... that the result of the calculation is obvious". — I disagree that the calculation is obvious, and I suspect that others do also. To quote Felsic2 right at the start of this discussion: "The fact that a lengthy explanation of the methodology for this calculation is necessary is evidence that it ... is original research."
(By contrast, if you had simply added up all of the murders, for example, for each year and said "the total number of murders by gun from 2001 to 2015 was nnnn", that would have been OK, to me at least, as a routine and obvious calculation.)
WP:CALC requires "consensus ... that the result of the calculation is ... a meaningful reflection of the sources" — I disagree that result is a meaningful reflection of the sources. You appear to have chosen and calculated with some of the numbers to present a result (the percentages) as a meaningful indicator of something that is not directly supported by the sources. This is contrary to WP:SYN, which says "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source".

Mitch Ames (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

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