Talk:Elvira Arellano - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wknight94 (talk | contribs) at 19:37, 27 November 2006 (→Lets finish this debate: Okay. And it sounds like Ramsey2006 is agreeable above. Compromise reached?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 17 November 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Importance

I think this is an important entry; thank you to whoever started it. I also think that for such a volatile issue, it is fair and presents the facts. Some people might take offense to the terms "illegal immigrant" and "convicted criminal", but that's exactly what she is. She is an immigrant who is here illegally and she was convicted of the crime of falsifying a Social Security number to obtain work. 69.211.109.153 06:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Goldschla 11/15/06

It may be an important entry on a volatile issue, but it is still subject to the same rules and guidelines as other WikiPedia articles. References must be cited, and the article must be neutral (i.e., no POV). Entries and links to the Op/Ed (Editorial) article in the Chicago Tribune have been deleted. —Chicaneo 00:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

References

These are articles that can be integrated into the article.

"Looking ahead ; Groundbreaking on King memorial;" Paul Leavitt, Mark Memmott. USA TODAY. McLean, Va.: Nov 13, 2006. pg. A.3 (talks about the son's departure for Mexico to plead case).
"PEOPLE," Anonymous. National Catholic Reporter. Kansas City: Oct 13, 2006.Vol.42, Iss. 44; pg. 4 (son delivered an appeal to the White House)
"Mary Schmich column." Mary Schmich. The Chicago Tribune, distributed by Knight Ridder Tribune Business News. Washington: Oct 4, 2006. p. 1 (7th week of sanctuary. Supporters gather outside church.)
"She Won't Go Quietly," Wren Abbott, Jacqueline Lee. Ms. Arlington: Fall 2006.Vol.16, Iss. 4; pg. 19. (Her case has raised awareness nationally of the plight of native born US citizens whose parents are undocumented immigrants.)
"Ernesto Portillo Jr. column: Chicago church no sanctuary from stalemate on immigration." The Arizona Daily Star, Tucson, Ernesto Portillo Jr.. distributed by Knight Ridder Tribune Business News. Washington: Aug 20, 2006. pg. 1
"Chicago Woman's Stand Stirs Immigration Debate." Gretchen Ruethling. New York Times (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Aug 19, 2006. p. A.10
"SEN. DURBIN ISSUES STATEMENT REGARDING ELVIRA ARELLANO," US Fed News Service, Including US State News. Washington, D.C.: Aug 15, 2006. p. n/a (refused to introduce a private bill for her benefit, since comprehensive immigration reform is neede to help all such people)
"Hunger strikers in Pilsen seek halt to deportations," Oscar Avila. Chicago Tribune, distributed by Knight Ridder Tribune Business News. Washington: May 25, 2006. pg. 1. ("one of the area's most prominent voices for illegal immigrants")

They should integrated into the article as footnootes. --evrik 19:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Requesting addition of Illegal Alien in place of Undocumented Worker.

Somebody who crosses the border illegally is an illegal alien.

Elvira Arellano is therefore an illegal alien as nobody is disputing the fact that she entered into the US illegally twice.

Elvira Arellano may also have been an undocumented worker, but so is a teenager who does not report baby sitting wages. Furthermore, Elvira Arellano is not presently working, so the characterization is even less relevant now.

To list Elvira Arellano as an undocumented worker, with no reference to her being an illegal immigrant/alien is factually negligent and dishonest.

Countless news articles refer to her as an illegal alien:

Even cable news refers to her as an illegal alien:

There have been numerous reverts setting this article back to undocumented worker, this is to open a debate on the issue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.113.7.17 (talk • contribs) .

First, by whose definition is Elvira Arellano an "illegal alien"? In User:70.113.7.17's edit summaries he/she stated that this was not his definition, but that of the State Department. I looked at the U.S. Department of State's homepage and its links but did not find the term "illegal alien" anywhere. User:70.113.7.17, please provide a link to the specific Department of State's page which makes the term "illegal alien" the official term. Second, whatever term is used, a link to the government's official definition would help to prevent further disputes. Chicaneo 04:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Illegal Alien Defined

Google's definitions:

Illegal Immigrant Defined

Illegal Alien Defined

Dictionary.com Definition:

illegal alien:

1. a foreigner who has entered or resides in a country unlawfully or without the country's authorization.

2. a foreigner who enters the U.S. without an entry or immigrant visa, esp. a person who crosses the border by avoiding inspection or who overstays the period of time allowed as a visitor, tourist, or businessperson. Compare resident alien.

Also called illegal immigrant.

Elvira Arellano meets the criteria required to be called "illegal alien", unless it can be proven otherwise. Burden is on those opposed to illegal alien change to provide proof she is legally in the . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.153.30.227 (talk • contribs) .

"Elvira Arellano may also have been an undocumented worker, but so is a teenager who does not report baby sitting wages."--Do you have a real world example of the expression "indocumented worker" actually being used in this manner? This sounds a bit made up to me. I did a google search on "undocumented worker", and checked all of the entries on the first 6 pages (the first 60 hits) before I gave up, and in ALL cases the expression refered to immigrants. This includes official governmental websites and law offices. For example, the 3rd hit is the California Department of Industrial Relations webpage http://www.dir.ca.gov/QAundoc.html titled "Undocumented worker rights", and it is clear from the webpage that they are refering to immigrants. I would be quite surprised to encounter the expression used without qualification in the way that you imagine, save for somebody purposely doing so to make a point. --Ramsey2006 05:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What is an undocumented worker?

An undocumented worker is a worker who does not have a valid visa to work in the United States.

An undocumented worker can be a person who entered the U.S. illegally; who entered the U.S. as a visitor and unlawfully started working; or who had a valid visa to work which expired and was not renewed.

http://www.graydon.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/news_events.newsletter_detail/object_id/1c3a2be4-94ad-4b36-bd48-26a5dc876b28/The21stCenturyEmployerandUSImmigrationLawsWhatisanEmployertoDo.cfm

--Ramsey2006 05:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Point is illegal alien more accurately describes her status than undocumented worker does. People working under the table are undocumented workers, people visiting countries under travel visas who do odd jobs are undocumented workers, but neither of these groups are illegal aliens. Therefore, undocumented worker is not the best description.
In all of your reverts back to undocumented worker, you have never included a reason for why undocumented worker is more valid then illegal alien, multiple people have expressed reason for using illegal alien. It is dishonest to omit this fact and I believe your efforts to prevent Elvira Arellano as being referred to as an illegal alien represent a biased POV. That said, am giving you the chance to debate your reasoning. The previous post does nothing to suggest why undocumented worker should be solely used.
In the past, I have made attempts to compromise, leaving both illegal alien and undocumented worker in the article, but you reverted that change out and have left no option for a middle ground solution to date.
Finally, in your last Talk posting you seem to imply that undocumented worker and illegal alien are interchangeable, but if that were the case, why do you protest using illegal alien? I suspect it is because the two terms are not in fact as interchangeable. Yes illegal alien has a negative connotation, but it is still the best term.
Please view definitions of illegal alien below, the burden is on those who do not wish the article to refer to Elvira Arellano as an illegal alien to provide proof that she is in fact not here illegally. I am open to compromise of posting both illegal alien and undocumented worked, but it is biased and dishonest to prevent any references to illegal alien, when that is the heart of this story. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.113.7.17 (talk • contribs) .

It is pretty clear that she came here to work, and that she has indeed been working, since one of her places of employment is even mentioned in the article, so "undocumented worker" seems quite accurate. However, in the spirit of compromise, would you prefer "undocumented immigrant" to "undocumented worker"? (BTW, it would be quite helpful if you would get a username and sign your comments, to avoid confusion.)--Ramsey2006 06:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Unidentified user(s), in the above posts you state that reverts from the term "illegal alien" to whichever term it is that you do not prefer is POV. In fact you are the one(s) engaging in POV. Let me explain. In the above post(s) you define the term "illegal alien" and then attempt to legitimize your definitions by linking to various sources. The first source you cited is a link to a WikiPedia article entitled "Illegal immigration". That article is marked at the top of the page as disputed, not verified and as one that contains POV. Hardly a valid source. The second source you cite is linked to a URL which is "not found". Again, hardly a valid source. There is the possibility that it is a broken link which broke after you posted the link. There is also the possibility that your intentions are not honorable. I can't be sure, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you could check that link and then re-post. The third source is linked to an online dictionary which states that the definitions you posted are "based on" a Random House dictionary. The phrase "based on" gives cause for pause and certainly indicates that the definitions may have been altered. Once again, hardly a valid source. Unidentified user(s) you'll have to do better than that to make your case. Chicaneo 12:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you can help and provide additional definitions of the term "illegal alien" and "undocumented immigrant" (which has not yet been sourced at all) for this debate, I fixed the second Google link. --Jackspenn 15:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Compromise: Lets use both terms

How able we change "Arellano first entered the United States in 1997 as an undocumented worker." to "Arellano is an illegal alien who first entered the United States in 1997."

and then change this "In 2000, she moved to Chicago and worked as a cleaning woman at O'Hare International Airport." to "In 2000, she moved to Chicago and took a cleaning job at O'Hare International Airport as an undocumented worker."

This allows for the inclusion of both the illegal alien term and the undocumented worker term, and places them in content related to each of those terms. I am trying really hard to reach a middle ground here, please let me know if this will work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.113.7.17 (talk • contribs) .

As I suggested below, how about something simpler, like replacing "undocumented worker" with "undocumented immigrant"? The section is titled "History" as I recall. The focus is on the sequence of events that actually happened, not on a running commentary of terms describing what she is. --Ramsey2006 06:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Her illegal alien status needs to be included in this article. It is important to inform readers of her illegal acts that resulted in her current situation; to ignore this is intellectually dishonest. All of your edits push a pro-Arellano POV that try to legitimize her position and remove any personal responsibility. If you wish to be neutral, you will accept the above compromise. The overwhelming media articles refer to her as an illegal alien, this has been documented and is provable by a simple Google search. You pushed for undocumented worker reference, and now do complete change to attempt a different approach. We should be about the truth, even if it hurts. Labeling her an illegal alien is completely legitimate and is supported by definitions already provided. It is also the most appropriate descriptor. I will not get taught into a why not this or that debate that can just keep me jumping hoops, rather, I have laid out a sound argument for the inclusion of "illegal alien", if you want to use other descriptors, we can debate that, but there has not been one sound reason for not using the term "illegal alien".

What is the definition of an "undocumented immigrant"? It is not common or widely used.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.113.7.17 (talk • contribs) .

Much of the Illegal immigration to the United States has to do with this sole issue of what to call the people. How about "undocumented worker/illegal immigrant"? I have to admit, not being terribly involved or interested in this issue, I would have never known that "undocumented worker" meant that the person had crossed the border illegally. It does seem disingenuous to not mention "illegal" somewhere. The article here is not called "Undocumented workers in the United States". —Wknight94 (talk) 14:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"undocumented worker/illegal immigrant" in place of the original "undocumented worker" would be an acceptable to me. --Ramsey2006 18:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence of the History section could be edited quite simply to read as follows: "Arellano first entered the United States in 1997 as an undocumented worker/illegal immigrant." --Ramsey2006 18:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Who's who here?

I can't even figure out who's participating here in this discussion and who is saying what. Anonymous users are not signing their comments.

On the article page, there are 3 anonymous user IP's:

68.166.88.10 who made a series of edits almost two weeks ago on Nov 15.

70.113.7.17 who made several series of edits on the evening of Nov 24 and around 1:00am on the morning of Nov 26.

70.246.89.177 who made several edits on the evening of Nov 26, last night.

On the talk page, I just realized that the latest anonymous user 70.246.89.177 from last night (Nov 26) has not even posted to this discussion. Instead, late last night and early this morning there have been two anonymous user IP's who have been posting without signing their posts. Those IP's are:

70.113.7.17

67.153.30.227

Now, I have no way of knowing if any of these anonymous users are the same poster or not, and if so, which ones. I also cannot easily identify who is saying what.

The anonymous users need to let everybody here know which IP's they have posted under, and need to start signing their comments before I can continue participating in this discussion. Are 70.113.7.17 and 70.246.89.177 the same person? --Ramsey2006 09:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I just spent some time fixing the order of posts and levels of sections as well as signing for people. What a mess! Let's post at the bottom of the page as is customary and let's sign our posts with ~~~~ —Wknight94 (talk) 12:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. It is alot easier to follow now. --Ramsey2006 18:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

70.113.7.17 and 70.246.89.177 are both the same person, one is my home, one a coffee shop I was at. I just started using Wiki, so you have to be patient. --70.113.7.17 14:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

That's easy to fix. Create a user ID! :) —Wknight94 (talk) 14:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets finish this debate

There still hasn't been any published reason not to list her as an "illegal alien". I provided multiple reasons for why illegal alien should be included, to jump from lets use "undocumented worker", no wait, lets use "undocumented immigrant" (which, still hasn't even been defined) avoids the issue we are debating. Let me phrase it as clearly as possible:

After reading the definitions, checking Google and checking multiple news articles, it is apparent that wikipedia is outside the norm by not sighting Elvira Arellano as an illegal alien, if we are not to list her as an "illegal alien", it must be proven she is not an illegal alien.

An acceptable answer would be Here is evidence (with sources) she is in the US legally and it is all an misunderstanding.

An unacceptable answer would be How about we use this PC phrase or this PC phrase instead.

I have been very patient in this lopsided debate. I have answered every request given to me. No one has addressed my request. I have been subjected to various avoidance tactics, so unless it can be proven she is not an illegal alien, I intend to make this change and not have it reverted out. I previously posted under 70.113.7.17 and 70.246.89.177, but have since gotten a user ID as requested. --Jackspenn 15:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said in my previous post, I tend to agree with you - but to a limited extent. A mention of the illegality of her actions is totally warranted IMHO but, let's be honest, some of your edits have completely overwhelmed the article with that aspect. Look at the diff for this set of your edits and tell me there's no POV in there. You even removed the link to the Human rights Portal at the bottom! —Wknight94 (talk) 17:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I have said, I am new to wikipedia. Look at the progess in my postings, I have learned to comment on history, use talk, use signatures, got an account to avoid confusion with other IP comments, am accepting of content that I do not agree with and all in an incredibly short period of time. I completely revamped my entire methodology. I have decided to fight for the inclusion of relevant facts rather then the exclusion of questionable facts or unrelated items. I make no excuses for missteps I made earlier, it was not in the best interest of open source projects, I simply have done my best not to repeat them. --Jackspenn 19:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay. And it sounds like Ramsey2006 is agreeable above. Compromise reached? —Wknight94 (talk) 19:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

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