Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Elonka (talk | contribs) at 03:48, 28 November 2006 (→Mediation: - reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived.

Thanks...

for the notice. Haiduc 12:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks Josiah. I appreciate it! Khoikhoi 21:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The D-word

Josiah, I first want to say how impressed I am with your cool-headed, open-minded contributions to the maelstrom over on TV-NC. You are setting an excellent example in that discussion and you should be commended for it. Pursuant to that discussion, I was reading through Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation just now and saw this gem, which apparently you recently restored to the page:

When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate, or add a link to a disambiguation page.

I am intrigued by this, since it seems to represent the basic standard of disambiguation, and thus strikes at the core of the TV-NC discussion. My novice impression is that the this guideline implies its own inverse: "When there is any risk of confusion, disambiguate." That, however, seems to go against the standard policy of "Disambiguate only when necessary." I'm curious what you think about this, as you obviously have a great deal of experience with it. Please feel free to reply here; I'll keep it on my watchlist. --Toby Rush ‹ ✆|✍ › 16:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Toby. My interpretation of the disambiguation policy is that disambiguation should do just what it says on the tin: resolve ambiguity. To that end, if there are two articles that could have the same title, some form of disambiguation is necessary. By contrast, if there's only one article that could have a given title, then no disambiguation is necessary. I think this is the way out of the contradiction you're seeing.

The "confusion" that disambiguation hopes to avoid is confusion between articles that might otherwise share a name, not the potential confusion of readers about an article's subject. For the purposes of disambiguation, it doesn't matter whether a reader coming upon a link to All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues can tell that that's an episode of Lost. (Ideally, of course, they would come upon such a link only in a context that would make that apparent.) What matters for disambiguation is whether any other article could possibly have the title All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues; since, to my knowledge, there is no such other article, the general guideline would be not to disambiguate this title.

Does this address your concern? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, though it's not really a concern as much as a curiosity. It seems very apparent to me that this:

The "confusion" that disambiguation hopes to avoid is confusion between articles that might otherwise share a name, not the potential confusion of readers about an article's subject.

is the interpretation of the disambiguation principle that is universally understood on Misplaced Pages. I merely found it interesting that it's not stated explicitly on WP:D, and wondered if that was an intentional omission or just simply something no one has found necessary to clarify. Obviously, it could very quickly come down to debating what the meaning of "is" is, and I don't see much value in taking it anywhere close to that. :)

Not trying to stir anything up here (there's more than enough of that on TV-NC)... just making sure I'm clear about the original intent of the policy. --Toby Rush ‹ ✆|✍ › 21:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My guess would be that it's just that nobody's found it necessary to clarify that so far. That said, perhaps there's an argument for doing so now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Wissahickon Creek

...was actually User:Bonaparte. Jayjg 03:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably everything in Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Bonaparte should be added to it. Jayjg 04:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be, except that User:Gurch and others are now deleting all userpages of permanently blocked editors, so soon enough all the evidence will disappear. Apparently 4 people agreed to this in some obscure discussion on an MfD last month, so now it's policy forevermore. Jayjg 04:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I forgot to mention, Gurch alone has deleted 20,000 User pages so far. Jayjg 04:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if they're using WP:DENY, they're using it incorrectly, since it explicitly says "Userpages for indefinitely blocked users (except sockpuppets and banned users) that have no practical purpose should be deleted after a short while". And there's no discussion I'm aware of WP:AN or WP:AN/I, but there probably should be. Jayjg 04:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Roger Needham vandal

I just scanned through the user creation log for the time when the previously blocked accounts were created. You will wish to block the last one from that time - Fresh Squid with Peanuts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Matches the Chinese restaurant theme too nicely to be a coincidence. Kavadi carrier 10:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

may you please unblock me

Please unblock me!! To tell you the truth, I was a wonderful contributor to articles in Misplaced Pages "Yu-Gi-OH and Pokemon". The story began when a user named Mitsumasa began creating and upload Pokemon images and articles.

After about 5 months after the start of the articles the PCP began merging the articles (A Man in Black, Ryulong, Interrobamf) i tried talking to them, and the PCP but they did'nt listen. I even tried to leave a committ on their usertalk pages but A Man in Black is the only one that responds to my committ. I gave up until recently students at my school "The Learning Community School" began bullying me, they knew that I was a contributor at the site "Misplaced Pages", so they told my teacher that they logged in some accounts and began vandalizing the articles that I personattly was currently having problems with you. My teacher Mrs. Lisa Mercato talked to the students Jene', Jessica, Aaron and restricted them from using the school computer.

I'm very sorry. May you please unblock me and my IP address 72.177.68.38. May you please just make it that I can create a new account. It is a total misunderstanding. If you want to talk to my teacher, please email her at lmercato@yahoo.com. The block is casuing the school not to edit Misplaced Pages.

Thank you, and God Bless —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yukiudaigx (talk • contribs) 14:19, November 10, 2006 (UTC)

Battlestar Galactica episode names

I noticed you redirected the Resurrection Ship article to the episode by the same name and put the ship's article in another. I think all BSG episodes should be named as so; "EPISODE NAME (Battlestar Galactica)" like most of the Star Trek episodes have "EPISODE NAME ("SHOW ABV" Episode)" in their names. It might make them easier to sort out and identify and keep them consistent with each other. Just my suggestion. Cyberia23 05:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I see your argument - however in the case of the Trek pages - titling them as they are helps disambiguate what series the episode came from, TNG for Next Gen, TOS for The Original Series, etc. That might be a point to consider when deciding on their proper formatting. Cyberia23 05:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:Marthajones.jpg

You said: "Hi, Yamla. You recently removed this image from the Doctor Who article, saying that it lacked the required detailed fair use rationale. The image page does have a four-point rationale on its page — what more would be required in order to keep the image? (I'd like to learn.)"

The rationale is only for Martha Jones, not Doctor Who. If a picture of this companion contributes meaningfully to the article on Doctor Who, a rationale for use there must be added. It is not at all clear that it was contributing meaningfully to that article and the article is already quite long. --Yamla 18:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You said: "The rationale says that she is a main character in the programme, and there's a short paragraph at Doctor Who#Companions about her. I don't really feel strongly that this particular image should be included, especially since the character has yet to appear in the series, but I do feel that it's important that an image of a companion appear in the article. It had previously included the image Image:Rosetyler.jpg, which does have a specific rationale for Doctor Who — would that be more acceptable? I agree that the article has become very long, but I don't think that removing that image was necessarily the best way to start cutting. There are far more extraneous bits."

To be clear, the reason I cut the image is because it was missing a rationale for that particular article. Making the article shorter was just a side-effect. The image definitely does have a rationale, but for an entirely different article. It's clearly valuable in that other article but not so clearly valuable in the article on Doctor Who. With an appropriate rationale, I agree it would be appropriate to have an image of a companion. Ideally, it should be a companion significant enough to merit at least a full paragraph discussion in Doctor Who. Which specific companion is probably less relevant. --Yamla 18:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

House episodes

Thank you for telling me about the policy on episode names! I wasn't aware of it before. I will keep it in mind for articles in the future. PullToOpən 22:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Tainted poll?

Hi. Sorry to bother you. You participated in a television episode article naming poll which now lives at this location. Some feel that wording changes have compromised the results of that poll. If you don't mind, could you please take a look at what is there now and add a quick note at WT:TV-NC#Looking for anyone who objects to the last poll to say whether your feelings on the matter remain the same? Of course you can feel free to read over the entirety of both links for more information. Thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the laugh...

		The Barnstar of Good Humor
		For a particularly hilarious song parody related to the debate on Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (television). BlueSquadronRaven 05:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be funnier if it weren't done at the expense of other editors. --Elonka 05:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's pointed at the situation, not the individual editors. Naming a participant in a debate does not equal making fun of them. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you single out and name specific people, it's pointed at them. You asked me before to point out if you did anything that was uncivil or unhelpful. I count "ridiculing other editors in the middle of a debate," as unhelpful. It contributes to an "us and them" mentality, discourages consensus building, and it encourages incivility on the part of other editors, towards the people that have been targeted. I know that you may see it as a "one time" occurrence, but what if it gets repeated? What if other people start the same "ridiculing" behavior, saying, "Well, Josiah made fun of that person, I can make fun of them too?" Please re-read WP:CIVIL and ask yourself whether that song helped the situation, or hurt it. --Elonka 06:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I intended to ridicule myself as much as anyone — hence the "run away" lines, which fit so well from the original song. If we can't see the absurdity in arguing so passionately over such a trivial matter, we desperately need to get a sense of perspective. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it would have been too bad to mention names, if you didn't mention only one name. Next time include me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oggleboppiter (talk • contribs) 03:07, November 21, 2006 (UTC)

OK. I will. :^) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Awsome song. -- Ned Scott 07:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• I found that very funny, like the Hotel Misplaced Pages song. (Radiant) 15:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Mischaracterization

For the record, no, I wasn't referring to you. If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you, I promise. :) I absolutely do not think that you added the song as a way of "filling up" the page. However, there are plenty of other posts in there from other editors, which I do think have been designed specifically to confuse and obfuscate. Which is another reason that I'd like a clean poll. --Elonka 19:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit war

I'm not in violation of 3RR. If you look at the edit history you'll see that yesterday I made three reverts before stopping, and then made one revert today. Although, looking at the edit history, it appears Duggy 1138 has broken 3RR. The Wookieepedian 06:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Si Spencer

Actually as you went there you can check out whether he is a "Torchwood person", did he write an episode or did he pull out as he isn't on the list. Tim! 10:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Explain!

I don't understand! I insired several new interlinks in the page Troy, and even so I was accused to vandalism! WHY?! DIEGO RICARDO PEREIRA 13:24 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

Josiah, I understand your concern, and wish I could get a clear answer. I've been making multiple backchannel requests for a checkuser, but haven't had any response yet. A simple WP:RFCU check isn't really an option, since I don't know for sure who the alternate account is.  :/ Also, though yes, the account has been around for a long time, the scope of articles edited is very narrow (for months it was almost exclusively in the Hunter x Hunter articles), the user still hasn't gone to the trouble of creating a userpage, the general demeanor is negative and confrontational, and the recent use of the account has been almost exclusively for moving articles, hundreds and hundreds of them. Also, he basically admits it himself, here: . --Elonka 07:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

He did have a user page, but I guess he requested it to be deleted. -- Ned Scott 07:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yaksha's comment on Woohookitty's talk page does seem to confirm that he's operating more than one account, but as long as he (or she) isn't using multiple accounts in the discussion, that's OK per WP:SOCK. If Yaksha has another account that's solely editing articles about Liberace or something, that's fine. If Yaksha is also participating in the WT:TV-NC discussion under another name, that's not. But I really don't see any evidence of that, and I don't think it helps our discussion to make accusations like that without solid evidence. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Aside from a checkuser result (which is not within my control, since I've sent out three requests so far, but without reply), what would you regard as evidence? --Elonka 07:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Ideally, it would be a checkuser result. Failing that, some specific diffs pointing towards similar wording or typographical/grammatical quirks indicating the same human being behind the ID. And frankly, it would be useful if you had some indication of whose sockpuppet you think Yaksha is. The vague suspicions here don't seem to add up to much, in my judgment. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, since you went to the trouble of asking me to try and "reduce acrimony", would you please ask the same of Yaksha? Seeing this constant stream of moved articles, is not doing anything to help calm the situation. --Elonka 08:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Why would you care if he's moving episode articles that don't involve Lost or have a situation where someone wants an exception? No one is asking for an exception for those articles. -- Ned Scott 09:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one reason, that "cautions" should be applied fairly. Josiah has asked me to modify my behavior to "reduce acrimony." To be fair, he should also ask the others who have done stress-inducing actions, such as those engaging in personal attacks, incivility, and non-consensus moves, to also modify their behavior. If Josiah wishes to be perceived as acting in a fair and unbiased manner, he needs to be issuing these kinds of cautions evenly, and not just to the people that he personally disagrees with. --Elonka 18:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No one is doing "non-consensus moves" to my knowledge. Moves that are in line with consensus are being done however. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I have asked editors who have been incivil to modify their tone in the past, and will continue to do so. Since I happen to believe that a consensus was established in support of the guideline, I don't see why Yaksha's moves are being considered "stress-inducing". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be helpful to try and look at it from a different point of view? Just as a mental exercise, to try and understand? Suppose, for example, you were in discussion in another part of Misplaced Pages, about some article-moves. Just for the sake of discussion, let's say that it was about whether or not all articles about two-word mammal names (like "Arctic wolf") should be hyphenated or not. Let's say that your stand was that they shouldn't be hyphenated, and that all existing articles should be left alone. There's an acrimonious discussion on a guideline page, then someone starts a poll, and the poll is rapidly changed over the next few days, such that people who are giving their opinions, are complaining that the poll is a mess, and other people are saying that they don't even want to participate because the discussion has gotten too confusing. With all the twisting, a "majority" on the poll shows up as "we like hyphens", which is interpreted to mean that all two-word articles should be hyphenated. You complain that the poll/discussion were improper, but you're attacked personally, and are told that the consensus is already made and that you're just whining. Further, some of the people claiming "consensus" start moving hundreds of articles, while you're still protesting that there wasn't really a consensus. Wouldn't you see the moving of those articles as somewhat stress-inducing? --Elonka 02:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I would. Of course, I see your analogy as flawed (for example, in the real case every person who complained during the poll has since stated their opinion clearly and unambiguously). There are other flaws as well, but I don't want to get diverted into arguing a hypothetical case.

Elonka, I acknowledge that some contributors' treatment of you has not been the best example of Wikipedian civility. However, that does not change the fact that subsequent to the poll, editors have had multiple opportunities to express their opinions, and many (including, I believe, everyone who voted in the poll) has done so. As I've tried to say before, Misplaced Pages guidelines are not established by polling, but by conversation; the conversation after the poll showed a clear consensus. Four other administrators agree.

It's equally clear that there is no consensus to hold a new poll, and I don't feel it's necessary to push for one. However, since you are still unhappy with the situation, I do think it might be appropriate to hold some form of mediation or to proceed to ArbCom. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I've said, I don't put much stock in the old poll, and I don't believe that we've had as full participation in the discussion as we might have, if we would have had a more structured environment for participating. Multiple people have commented to me that they'd like to participate, but they're daunted by format. When I've told them, "Just start a new section and offer your opinion," they have found this intimidating, and I've heard more than one person say that the environment in there is very uncivil, and they have no wish to be personally attacked. In any case, I have contacted a couple people with mediation experience to see if they'd like to come in and help, on an informal basis. Perhaps that may help break the logjam. If not, I agree, it may be time to proceed to more formal mediation (if we can even get everyone to agree to mediation?), or ArbCom. --Elonka 10:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Roger Needham

I was trying to prune WP:PP and came across Roger Needham. What in the world happened here?! I'm guessing Centrx actually had the office remove edits because of some terrible edit summaries. Sound about right? Otherwise, it looks silly - there's only a few edits in the system for the whole 2006 calendar year. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Disregard. I see what happened. The one edit in the delete history leads to the place where Centrx moved the article with the bad edit summaries. I wonder why he moved the page before deleting it. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

RE: warning vandals

I understand the general procedures regarding warning/blocking vandalism, and that IPs generally must be warned recently for the block to be appropriate. However, this IP is registered to Road Runner, a US-based cable internet provider, and per the edit history appears to be a single person (similar editing history, including 2 exact-same vandalisms separated by 12 days). Under such circumstances, I believe it's common-sense to assume they've already seen the final warning, and merely leaving another final4 makes us look impotent. Especially when the last final4 was for exactly the same vandalism that he/she has just repeated. --AbsolutDan 01:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Striking out a line above - was mistaken about final warning timing. --AbsolutDan 01:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, scratch the whole thing. I must need a nap - last final was for spamming (and from myself no less), so user hasn't received a final for vandalism. Suppose the actions taken were proper afterall. Carry on! --AbsolutDan 01:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

User:One50bpm

It was ‎Martin wesik. At first it was just the Brad Pitt article with a different name put in. After a "nonsense" tag, he removed the tag and rewrote the article slightly keeping the Brad Pitt picture for a few edits and then eventually changing it to something else. I put a "bio" tag on it which he removed two or three more times. IrishGuy 23:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Then may I respectfully request that you consider changing the wording to what I have suggested? Or if you disagree, move it to a separate section. --Elonka 03:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your desire to follow the rules. And I also appreciate that you took the time to pull together the Mediation request. However, I wish that you would have taken a bit more time with it, and perhaps checked wording. I was working on a Medcab request, myself, which is what had been recommended to me, and then the next thing I saw, you said we should use formal mediation, and then a few minutes later we have a complete mediation request, with wording that I'm not particularly happy with, and a dozen people signing on within minutes. Can we please try to take a bit more time with these things? This kind of rapid-fire reaction stuff is part of the reason we got into this mess in the first place, when the poll was being rapidly changed in mid-stream. :/ I'm not trying to bust your chops about this, since I really do appreciate the work that you did. But please, as I've been saying all along, can we get agreement on things before making major steps? --Elonka 03:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)