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DCEU draft articlesFor all articles that are currently being created in the Draft space, please see Talk:DC Extended Universe/Drafts.

Batman 2021

I am not sure that this film belongs within the DCEU article. There have been no explicit references that this film would be within the DCEU. It might be standalone. Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:32, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

It’s not a standalone film. It’s a reboot. The history of the DCEU’s incarnation of Batman will restart, since Ben Affleck has been fired. So it’s a soft reboot.

2601:205:4100:AB88:8804:CCB5:9A64:E42E (talk) 03:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

An example of a soft reboot is the movie Bumblebee. Soft reboots are only slight reboots. “Bumblebee” barely has any connection to the Transformers franchise, and so it changes some events in that franchise’s universe. “The Batman” might turn out to be like that. 2601:205:4100:AB88:8804:CCB5:9A64:E42E (talk) 16:48, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the Ben Affleck franchise, though. It started development that way, but that's no longer the case. It's a full reboot. DarkKnight2149 20:37, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

It might as well be a reboot. “The Batman” is supposed to be the first in a trilogy. 2601:205:4100:AB88:8804:CCB5:9A64:E42E (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Soft reboot? Let's just say it like it is. It's a reboot. There barely even is a DCEU at this point, because WB is focusing more on individual franchises moving forward. We actually need to go into every post-Wonder Woman 1984 DC article and remove "It is the installment in the DC Extended Universe" from the lead, for the reasons mentioned below and at #Page retool. This isn't a matter of "installments" in a shared universe anymore. DarkKnight2149 10:08, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

I don’t really understand what you mean. 2601:205:4100:AB88:8804:CCB5:9A64:E42E (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Reeves said it will be. It is an old statement—pre-Justice League and when they were still pretending Affleck was involved—but no reliable source has explicitly stated otherwise, despite how the project appears on the surface. Prefall 07:06, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

He's actually said it will be DCEU as recently as August 2018, right before he finished the script . The cast is also signed on to reprise their roles in other DCEU films as well. Note that JS has been making similar edits to the Batman in film article, which we've been debating for some time. JOEBRO64 12:40, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

It really is unfortunate that we have to adhere to an old tweet that was posted before anything on the film had been started, especially since now that literally every development from the film heavily implies it will have nothing to do with the currently established DCEU. WB really needs to finally confirm its separation so we can move on. FaceOffTournament (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

The reliance on sourcing isn't a suicide pact. If all we have is a single, old tweet, then we cannot allow it undue weight in the article. That is the sum of the problem here; there is no confirmation as to the film being within the DCEU since a tweet that was offered before the first-draft script was even complete. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:48, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Did you see the link I posted above? He's said it literally right before he finished the script. I also find it extremely hard to dispute when the actors are all signed on to appear in other DCEU films. People need to stop jumping to conclusions just because the roles are being recast. Batman Forever is still a sequel to Batman Returns even though the main cast was replaced, for instance. JOEBRO64 18:36, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Respectfully, you have not provided us with references that support that statement, TheJoeBro. Please link references for the cast members who have been signed to appear in other films. I am sure there is corroborating references from those films as well, right?

Hopefully, you are understanding my issue here. You are taking a few threads and trying to knit it into a suit; we tend to call that synthesis. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:48, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/dc-comics-superman-michael-b-jordan-green-lantern-aquaman-birds-of-prey-1203415757/. And no, I'm not "taking a few threads and trying to knit it into a suit." You're outright making up information when I'm providing references that disprove what you're arguing. JOEBRO64 18:55, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

And you have not provided us with references that support that statement—what? It is in my post you responded to. JOEBRO64 18:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Joe, that article literally does not say that The Batman's actors will appear in DC Extended Universe films. It only says they have the option to appear in sequels or spin-offs from The Batman. Also, that Matt Reeves tweet was made a very long time ago. Scripts change. We know he's been working on the script for a while and only recently began production on the film. Again, all of the recent developments have given more evidence that he's since decided to distance his film from the established DCEU continuity and instead begin his own. You are indeed "taking a few threads and trying to knit it into a suit," just like you've been doing with that vague at best sentence about New Gods' (more than likely) inclusion in the DCEU.

Just to be clear, I don't have an issue with The Batman being on this page (although at this point, based on concrete evidence, I have to disagree), but the reasoning just hasn't been strong.FaceOffTournament (talk) 20:00, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Reeves' two statements may be old, but as far as I'm aware, we have no reliable sources stating that it is separate from the DCEU. Perceptions based on recent developments is not an acceptable alternative. And for the record, I don't think it will be part of the DCEU, but I am still in favor of inclusion until we have confirmation that it won't be connected. Prefall 20:05, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I think we should no-wiki the Batman 2021 (rendering it invisible in article space) until we have more connective references. If it subsequently gains that connection via references, we can remove the nowiki blocks. If it turns out to be a separate sort of beast, we can decide what to do with the hidden entrant then. thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure about hiding it. IMO it should stay until we get concrete evidence that it won't be a DCEU film (although I personally still think it will, like Prefall I have my doubts). When we do get the evidence, I think we should move it into a "repurposed projects" section rather than removing it entirely, similar to what's done at List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films. JOEBRO64 01:05, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Look, I know how much work you have put into this, Joe, but we cannot go about proving or disproving a negative. I am not suggesting that we trash the listing; I am suggesting we hide it until (or if) it is definitively going to be within the DCEU. We do not know that it is yet, and none of us here are fortune-tellers. It is not part of the DCEU as of yet, so it cannot remain.

The no-wiki is the best way to go until we have concrete references either way. It is the most elegant solution and protects the article from Synthesis issues. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:53, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm still in favor of inclusion. We have two explicit statements from Reeves supporting it being in the DCEU, from 2017 and 2018, but no dissenting statements from reliable sources. It's not misleading to be here in the meantime, nor does it hurt anything—and frankly, people being confused by its status seems to be exactly what WB wants. Prefall 08:34, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, I would disagree. There are references that note - pretty clearly, imo - that - at the most recent writing - the film is not intended to be part of the DCEU (1, 2, 3, 4). Because the film is still in the sorting phase, that might change, but as of now, according to more sources than not, it isn't a DCEU film. To suggest it is misleading, as more sources than not suggest its outside the DCEU.

As such, it is inaccurate to include it in the article; inaccuracy information is why we have admins and other editors, to correct inaccurate information, as it hurts the encyclopedia as a whole.

It is still in the Batman in Film article, and I believe it is still sandboxing its way to mainspace status. It just doesn't belong here, not now. The idea that it might be definitely noted by explicit sources as a part of the DCEU is why I suggested that we hide the entrant for now. The alternative is to remove it entirely. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

WeGotThisCovered isn't reliable, and the others aren't reports, just opinion pieces. I mean, I share the same opinion as them, but that doesn't matter. The only definitive comments we have are from the director. There is nothing stopping them from rebooting/retconning the Batman continuity, yet keeping it connected to the DCEU. Prefall 20:53, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I asked this elsewhere, but perhaps you could point me to the discussions of precedent that establish WGTC as unreliable?

Additionally most reviews are in fact opinion pieces. If Reeves has not definitively said one way or the other, we are in fact allowed to allow references that interpret their words to influence articles. And - I reiterate - we have zero solid references that this film is part of the DCEU. Until we have statements to the effect that it is, it should not be here. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:09, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

They're not recognized as reliable by WP:FILM/R, which isn't the same as being proven unreliable, but no "exclusive" insider news by them should be used.

We have two explicit statements from Reeves that it is in the DCEU though, which is the whole crux of this discussion. Prefall 01:48, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Not to sound like a broken record, but why not post the text of those sources? I do not think they say what you think they say. And, as for the two sources that you have stated as being "bad", they are not listed as being unreliable on WP:FILM/R. I am trying to understand yur point of view, but you aren;t telling me something that can be verified, Prefall. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:26, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Reeves: "Jeez, what'd I miss, guys...? 😀 Just to be clear: Of COURSE Batman will be part of the D.C. Universe. Batman will be BATMAN... In my comments from a while back about not being part of the DCEU, I was talking about The Batman being a story specifically about Batman… not about the others in the Universe. That it wouldn’t be filled with cameos servicing other stories — that it would be a BATMAN story." — August 2017,

Reeves: "There are ways in which all of this connects to DC, to the DC universe as well. We’re one piece of many pieces so I don’t want to comment on that except to say that I’m focused very specifically on this aspect of the DC world." — August 2018,

Those seem pretty clear to me. Also, WP:FILM/R doesn't list unreliable sources, it just covers sources to avoid with user-submitted content. If it's not considered reliable, then it shouldn't be used for contentious material. Prefall 02:40, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, those are the same tweets I was referring to as not explicit enough to make the intuitive leap of connection to the DCEU. Allow me to explain:

The first comment notes that "of course" the film will be part of the DC Universe. As we both know, the DCEU is a specific subset of the DCU; not the same thing. By Reeves' definition, The Joker is part of the DCU, but not the DCEU. He pointedly does not address whether the film is part of the DCEU.
The second comment also addressed the connection to the DC Universe or DC world....but not the DCEU.
When I say explicit, it means that Reeves opens his mouth and says (or tweets) that the Batman film he is making is part of the DCEU. There is no confusion in that statement, no wiggle-room. That's what we need to make the argument that the film is within the scope of this article.
Lastly, I have never heard of vetting sources against a comprehensive listing at WikiProject_Film/Resources. I mean, it doesn;t seem a bad idea, but can you guarantee that every single good source is listed there? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:59, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that "DCEU" isn't actually the official name of the universe. I'm pretty sure WB just refers to it as the DC Universe. JOEBRO64 03:16, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "DCEU" is not an official term, thus forms of "DCU" often get used in its place. I can probably count on one hand the number of times anyone associated with this franchise has used "DCEU" publicly—that Reeves tweet being one of them. That first statement is clearly him referencing being part of the DCEU, and every source's interpretation of those tweets agree. The second is arguably more vague, but within the context I provided earlier, seems very clearly to be about the film franchise.

Not every good source will be listed there, but we can't (or shouldn't) use contentious material from unvetted sources. To be clear, I'm just referring to "exclusive" inside source stories here. Prefall 03:23, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I am not buying that DCU and DCEU are used interchangeably within the industry; you find no such confusion between the Marvel Universe and the MCU. However, if you are prepared to list where a reliable source explicitly notes where both terms are used interchangeably, I'm open to reconsideration. Until then, let's stop moving the goalposts; being "pretty sure" is simply not good enough. Batman can be within the DC Universe (cartoons, comics, etc.) and still not be within the DCEU.

And with regards to comparing the sources I provided against the list at FILM/R, I have been given to understand that the listing there is not comprehensive; a source does not need to appear there to be considered reliable. Furthermore, there appear to be no issues with either WeGotThisCovered or CheatSheet int he archives of RSN. Does that mean the sources are top notch? I don't know. What is certain is that calling them unreliable because they don't fit a narrative is not going to fly. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:46, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

See the note in the article itself. This is a long-standing branding issue that has never been addressed by WB. The franchise, to this day, has never been officially named.

I am not saying they're unreliable to "fit my narrative". I feel like I need to reiterate that I'm of the opinion that The Batman will not be in the DCEU. I simply do not think that view is definitively reflected in reliable sources (yet). Prefall 17:52, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

These points have likely been made already, but I'll put my two cents forward: Nothing about this project outside of the outdated Reeves source suggests this is still affiliated with the DCEU. Irons is not Alfred anymore, Simmons is not Gordon anymore, Affleck, Johns, Snyder, they're all not involved. I read through the DCEU films and all of them outside of this have some relationship towards previous DCEU films. Rusted AutoParts 03:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm with Rusty, here. There is no evidence that officially marks The Batman in the DCEU. Matt Reeves' statements came at a time when he hadn't even casted Robert Pattinson. That only happened last May. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the claim. --Julian1Seguin8 (talk) 04:59, 15 January 2020 (UTC)Julian1Seguin8

Pretty much my point from the beginning. However, the sources are hot mess, and fans are creatively interpreting what is and is not the DCEU. which muddies the editing waters. If something of an official statement comes down excluding Battinson from the DCEU, we will strike it from the article so fast, there will likely be a sonic boom. I don't think it should be there, either, but Prefall is right. The sources are not there, and the push from the fanboyz is extreme. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:29, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

All of the confirmation I have seen of the film taking place in the DCEU is outdated. DarkKnight2149 20:33, 16 January 2020 (UTC) Likewise, The Suicide Squad doesn't belong in this article because the producer has explicitly stated that it's a reboot (albeit with some returning actors). Even if it's just a soft reboot, there's no evidence that it's tied to the larger DCEU in any way, shape, or form. Idris Elba was also initially cast as Deadshot. DarkKnight2149 20:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

It's outdated, yes, but we still haven't learned otherwise. Until we do, the status quo should be retained. If it's not in the DCEU, we can easily just remove it. JOEBRO64 20:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Also re: The Suicide Squad—I don't think we should remove that, either. It can still be a reboot and part of the DCEU, and most stories I've seen seem to suggest it just won't acknowledge the events of the 2016 movie. JOEBRO64 20:47, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

A reboot, by definition, suggests a different continuity. His exact words were that it was a "total reboot." And that's not how sourcing works. We wait for confirmation before we make a claim. We don't assume based on dated sources and then wait for that assumption to get debunked. The DCEU itself probably won't even exist in its current iteration for much longer. The Batman is almost certainly a reboot, The Suicide Squad is (at the very least) a soft reboot, WB is looking reinvent Superman for modern audiences and Henry Cavill has been reportedly retired by WB, Wonder Woman 1984 has distanced itself from the word sequel, The Flash movie is adapting Flashpoint, and WB has stated that they are focusing more on individual franchises moving forward. DarkKnight2149 21:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Then maybe we need to rethink how we're handling DC's current slate of movies. WB is moving away from the shared universe approach, so that seems to have created a lot of confusion about which movies they're making do take place in the DCEU and which ones don't. So maybe we should completely retool the page? Maybe we should rename the page and make separate sections for DCEU movies, standalones, and future projects. JOEBRO64 21:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

That seems like the most logical thing to do. DarkKnight2149 22:20, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Blackhawk

Just a question, why isnt "Blackhawk" movie (on which should Steven Spielberg be working on) in development section? It there wasnt enough evidence for it to be confirmed as part of DCEU?--89.176.201.34 (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, it hasn't been confirmed to be part of the DCEU yet. Press releases avoided tying it to the existing universe, and no reports have indicated it will be. JOEBRO64 16:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

January 2020

I am revisiting this topic, as the previous 'consensus' seems to be defunct at this point in time. Previously, the arguments were made that Blackhawk may appear in a DC Black film series - compared to Joker. The filmmaker for Joker has since stated that his pitch to WB was for three separate films, exploring the origins in DC villains in a grounded-context, but that the studio declined his pitch at that time. Additionally, New Gods has since been reportedly by various reliable sources that it is a DCEU film. Besides all of this - there has been zero sources that state Blackhawk is standalone, meanwhile various reliable sources state that it is. On top of all of this, Saïd Taghmaoui has confirmed his involvement with Spielberg's film after previously appearing in Wonder Woman. What I am saying is that the previous consensus/discussion, is out of date/incorrect. It has been added several times (by me) to the upcoming list of films, but it continues to be reverted. This needs to be addressed. @Prefall:, @TheJoebro64:, @89.176.201.34 -- what is your argument? Also, we may want to bring in additional editors that have been contributing to this article.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:18, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Taghmaoui didn't confirm his involvement; all he did was tweet a picture of a news story about Blackhawk. That isn't confirmation at all. At best, he might be teasing some sort of involvement, but it's entirely possible he's just excited for the movie. JOEBRO64 17:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Also the consensus being "out of date" doesn't mean we should add it back. If there's consensus already in place, per WP:CONSENSUS and WP:STATUSQUO that remains in place until it's overridden by a new consensus. JOEBRO64 17:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

If you read his comments within his social media post, someone commented on his involvement as being the Blackhawk in the titular film, and he responds with "I hope it will be that easy". There is clearly negotiations ongoing. Beyond that, again there are zero sources that state it is not DCEU, while there are various reliable sources that do.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but that's WP:SYNTH. It's based on your interpretation of the tweets. Unless he explicitly says "Yeah, I'm going to be in Blackhawk," it remains vague. See WP:STICKTOSOURCE. JOEBRO64 17:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: It's a plain as the actor responding to the comments and acknowledging them as fact. Besides that, again - the actor's comments alone don't explain what's going on. The fact that all the other sources I included state that Blackhawk is DCEU is what tells us that Taghmaoui is confirming his role.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. That's pure WP:OR. JOEBRO64 12:37, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

...where am I missing the speculation? I want to return to the fact that I have stated multiple times now: VARIOUS reliable sources has stated this is a DCEU movie. There are none that state it is not. That is my main argument.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:57, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

No, they don't. We still have no concrete confirmation Blackhawk is a DCEU film. JOEBRO64 12:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: "they don't", according to what source? Vanity Fair Hollywood, The Wrap, HuffPost (formerly "The Huffington Post") all state that it's DCEU. They each call it the "DC Universe" state he joins the DC Universe, discuss other DCEU recent directors, and even state that it will be seen of the Blackhawks interact with Superman an Wonder Woman... pretty clear that it's DCEU.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 00:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

But the official announcement of the film didn't say it would be part of the film universe, and trade reports from THR, Variety, Deadline, etc. explicitly avoided tying it to the DCEU. And you're making some pretty wild claims (they'll interact with Superman and Wonder Woman, really? How can that even happen if the film's set in WWII?) without backing them up. JOEBRO64 00:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Just a few points of clarity:

• there is aboslutely no such thing as a DC "Black" film. The DC Black Label refers to comics only, and it is getting pretty annoying that peopke keep trying to play Sherlock and sneakily try to connect them.
• Unless a source from the studio is utterly unambiguous about whether a film is or is not in the DCEU - a term that apparently is so vague that not even the various directors of DC films know when or if to apply it - we do not make those connections. In the absence of explicitly stating that the film is connected to other films, it is not in the DC Extended Universe. Sources that try to look smart by connecting stuff up is not going to be enough. The only sources we should actively be seeking are from the people in production (actors, crew and studio).
• We are NOT IN A HURRY. There is no rush to get this information out there. Half of these sources are mere musings, informed guesses and outright marketing propaganda; hardly the sourts of material we should be using in a Misplaced Pages article. Wait until sources are solid. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:03, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: A couple of things:

1. "DC Black" was also the word that Todd Phillips was using for his proposed (and rejected) line of DC Comics character studies.

2. I agree with all of your other points.

Could you please vote below at #Page retool. Not only does this page need to be merged with DC Films and completely restructured so that we're not making unsubstantiated claims about future films, but "DC Extended Universe" also needs to be removed from a few of the upcoming DC movie articles. For example, The Suicide Squad (film) has been explicitly stated by the producer to be a "full on reboot" (his words) with some returning actors, yet the article claims that it's a straight sequel to the 2016 film set in the DC Extended Universe. There's literally nothing to back that up with, besides outdated sources from earlier in the film's development from before James Gunn took over. DarkKnight2149 07:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: this is completely inaccurate. Actors, as was stated above have stated that it is connected to the previous film. It is merely, not a direct-sequel. It is a continuation for the previous film.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:10, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Also - the reliability of Deadline, Variety, and The Hollywood Reporter is now in question?? That sounds like an argument for another article's talk-page. If you have problems with them, @Jack Sebastian: you should be discussing them elsewhere. There are no statements from anyone involved that the DCEU is over/abondoned etc. Quite the contrary. WW84, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad, Aquaman 2, Shazam 2, Black Adam, The Flash -- ALL have direct ties to previous movies. Calling The Batman into question, when its sole filmmaker has stated that it is connected to the DCEU is frankly, quite ridiculous.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:13, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

The only sources stating that are from before James Gunn took over. The film's producer has directly stated that this movie is a reboot (which outweighs any statements from paid actors) and James Gunn has avoided the question entirely. Idris Elba was also intitially cast as Deadshot. There is no evidence that The Suicide Squad has anything to do with the DCEU, just as there is no evidence that The Batman is still a DCEU prequel. Unless you can substantiate your position, there is no reason not to treat The Suicide Squad any differently from Mad Max: Fury Road, The Incredible Hulk (film), Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, or any of the other soft reboots that have hit the market. DarkKnight2149 20:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

I'd suggest differentiating between upcoming films that we know with 100% certainty occupy the shared franchise that was started with Man of Steel (BoP, WW1984, The Flash, and the sequels to Aquaman and Shazam) and everything else.DigificWriter (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

WB simply isn't following the shared universe model anymore. Besides Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 (which both come out this year and began development years ago), none of them should be claimed to be "installments" in a shared universe unless something changes closer to release. Even if specific DCEU films receive a follow-up, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's still a shared universe. DarkKnight2149 19:21, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Page retool

As I discussed with Darkknight2149 above, I think we need to retool this page to reflect the fact that WB is abandoning the shared universe approach. I feel like this will end our endless squabbles about The Batman, New Gods, Blackhawk, and the like, since it will allow us to better handle WB's approach.

Here's what I propose:

• A Shared universe section, which has covers the DCEU, from Man of Steel to Birds of Prey (I'm saying that instead of Shazam! since it's being released in less than a month).
• A Standalone films section, which discusses Joker and WB's plans to deviate from the shared universe approach.
• A Future section, which discusses upcoming films with release dates. Since we're in disagreement over how to classify movies like The Batman, this will help rectify that issue by not explicitly placing them in either the shared universe or standalone sections.
• The other standard sections, like box office and reception.

The only thing I don't know what we should do about is the name. Something like "Warner Bros.' DC Comics films"? JOEBRO64 22:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support to reflect DC Films instead of written with the mentality of a shared cinematic universe. WB has stated that they are focusing more on franchises than universes moving forward, and it seems pretty evident that DCEU is being phased out:
  

• The Batman started off as a DCEU prequel, and now seems to be no longer connected.
  
• The Suicide Squad started off as a sequel to Suicide Squad, and now it's being called a "total reboot" by the film's producer ever since James Gunn took over (even if it's a soft reboot, since some actors are returning, it may only be very loosely connected to the first film similar to Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, Mad Max: Fury Road, and The Incredible Hulk; it clearly isn't a straight sequel).
  
• Henry Cavill has been heavily reported to have been retired from the Superman role by WB, and they are currently having discussions with various directors to reboot his franchise to make him "relevant" to modern audiences. Neil Gaiman even protested this by saying "Don't make him relevant, make him inspiring" on his Twitter.
  
• Most of the DCEU films have been cancelled at this point, and the recently announced upcoming films haven't been specified to be in a universe (New Gods, for example).
  
• The Flash movie is adapting Flashpoint.
  
• Wonder Woman 1984 has completely distanced itself from the word "sequel", and Birds of Prey is stated to take place in a "parallel timeline" to the DCEU with Harley Quinn serving as an unreliable narrator and Batman missing from Gotham City.
  
• Jared Leto is out as the Joker.
  
• The reason that Todd Phillips' DC Black label didn't go anywhere is because WB told him that they would make any future standalones under the regular DC line of films.

I agree it's time to start writing these articles as DC's film slate, and not a fully connected cinematic universe akin to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Especially when former DCEU franchises may only be ambiguously connected (if at all) moving forward. DarkKnight2149 23:00, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• This page will probably need to be merged with DC Films and make that the primary focus. We also need to remove It is the umpteenth installment in the DC Extended Universe (DCEU) from the leads of every DC article after Wonder Woman 1984, since any further movies shouldn't framed as "installments" in a singular, clear cut shared universe media franchise. DarkKnight2149 10:21, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
  • @Darkknight2149: I've started a draft at User:TheJoebro64/drafts/DCEU. You're free to help edit it as it's mostly a template now and I'm going to be tied up with The Empire Strikes Back for a while, but I will get around to it ASAP. JOEBRO64 15:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• OPPOSE extremely. This is the definition of unofficial propositions. A separate article listing all DC-based films, would be justified. However, negating that fact that these are all the same film franchise, is destructive to the article's topic. None of reasonings stated has been from WB. Birds of Prey - alternate timeline is simply due to the fact that Harley Quinn is an "unreliable narrator" as all involved have stated. Meanwhile The Batman - Matt Reeves has confirmed is DCEU (specifically); New Gods - is DCEU (per reliable sources); The Flash including Flashpoint elements (not a good argument to merge this page); and Jared Leto being finished with the Joker --- all terrible arguments. Besides all this Wonder Woman 1984 has simply been compared to James Bond/Indiana Jones installments -- where the previous film doesn't influence the current film, but it is all still one film series. ALSO, Blackhawk has been confirmed to be DCEU. there are no sources that say it's not - as I have stated before.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:05, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, there are no sources saying that the DCEU is an abandoned franchise. They have simply stated that they will focus on stand-alone features, before eventually coming back to a teamup film (i.e.: Justice League 2). The article as-is is accurate, and valid. If you're wanting a list of all DC Films - you need to make an additional page/article.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

there are no sources saying that the DCEU is an abandoned franchise—, , and . That was just on the first page of a five-second Google search. Your argument is just WP:IDONTLIKEIT and is not backed up by anything. Everything Darkknight said is correct. New Gods and Blackhawk have not been confirmed to be part of a wider franchise, The Batman's connection to the DCEU is debatable, the DCEU as it was envisioned just doesn't exist. You realize all the films will still be in this article, right? We need to treat this as DC's film slate, not one sprawling cinematic universe that no longer exists. JOEBRO64 20:14, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

• Pinging users involved in previous discussions for further input: @Prefall, Alex 21, Jack Sebastian, HAL333, Facu-el Millo, Sock, and Adamstom.97:. JOEBRO64 20:17, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

All of this is overkill. The way to do away with this whole argument is to state that the original intention was a model similar to the MCU, while they have now reevaluated to focus on individualized story-telling.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:15, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

• @TheJoebro64: - each of those sources you provided are not reliable. They are journalistic commentary. They are not from the studio themselves. Likewise, the last source you provided is titled "The DCUE is dead, long live the DCUE" (a riff on the "long live the king" phrase). It simply means one strategy dies, while another is 'born'. --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Likewise, this article simply needs a segment (paragraph maybe?) stating the differences between the original plan for a MCU-esque shared universe, while it is now individualized story-telling. Also - how is The Batman debatable, when the filmmaker has stated that it is DCEU?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

No, they are. You're just discrediting them because they disprove your argument that "no sources exist that say the DCEU is dead." I'm surprised you think they're unreliable, since I've had to tell you numerous times not to reference sites like GWW, IMDb, WGTC, and CBM. JOEBRO64 20:21, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: - the times I have included those references is when they are corroborated by reliable sources. The real issue here sounds like "What sources are reliable enough to include information on this article?" Additionally, The Verge, Screen Crush, and Screen Rant are not "the most reliable sources" out there. That's a fact. The articles you connected are Journalism observations. Zero statements from the studio themselves.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC) Has Warner Bros. stated that the current film franchise is done? No, so we have no place to state that it is.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 20:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

They never even said it was beginning in the first place. DC never had a clear cut plan like Marvel, and they're not planning an interconnected cinematic universe now. We need to stop acting like they are. JOEBRO64 20:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

I have to side with TheJoebro64 on this one. Not only are a lot of your sources outdated, but there is no evidence for the post-Wonder Woman 1984 upcoming films having "ties" to the earlier films aside from returning actors, and at this point, the DC Extended Universe certainly is not a film franchise onto itself (just a panned shared universe that was originally intended to compete with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, that is now being selectively disregarded by WB in favour of more individual storytelling). The only way to objectively categorise upcoming films without original research is to rewrite the page to reflect DC Films instead of some vague shared universe that will likely be phased out in years to come. DC is now doing standalone films under their regular label, for Christ's sake. DarkKnight2149 20:31, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Also, the times I have included those references is when they are corroborated by reliable sources is complete bull. If they're corroborated by reliable sources, then why didn't you cite those sources? You know the sources I listed are unreliable; you're just grasping for an excuse. JOEBRO64 00:01, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: the DCEU isn’t abandoned. “Wonder Woman 1984” is clearly a sequel, indicating that DC Films and Warner Bros. have no intention of rebooting or abandoning the DCEU.--Dipralb (talk) 23:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

@Dipralb: Negative. Wonder Woman 1984 began filming years ago and comes out this year. Every post-Wonder Woman 1984 movie and statements from WB indicate the exact opposite, as outlined above. There is no clear cut DCEU anymore, nor does it hold any special notability over DC Films as a whole, considering that the DCEU wasn't successful and WB is focusing more on individual franchises moving forward. DarkKnight2149 23:59, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Here is WB stating their plans to focus less on a shared universe model and more on individual films moving forward:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/toby-emmerich-warners-bros-crazy-rich-year-1176027

Here is the producer of The Suicide Squad stating that it is, in fact, a total reboot:

"We don’t call it Suicide Squad 2 ‘cause it’s a total reboot, so it’s The Suicide Squad and I think people should be extremely excited about it. It’s everything you would hope from a James Gunn script"

Todd Phillips' proposed DC Black line of standalone films was rejected, because WB told him that any future standalones like Joker will be made under the regular DC label:

https://deadline.com/video/todd-phillips-joker-career-interview-behind-the-lens/ (he goes into this more in other interviews)

WB is looking to reboot Superman to make him "relevant" to modern audiences. They have had discussions with various directors and are even considering Michael B. Jordan for the role:

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/dc-comics-superman-michael-b-jordan-green-lantern-aquaman-birds-of-prey-1203415757/

Here is confirmation that the upcoming Flash movie is adapting Flashpoint, the comic that rebooted the DC Universe in 2011:

https://ew.com/tv/2020/01/15/crisis-on-infinite-earths-marc-guggenheim-earth-prime-ezra-miller-mia/

And of course, it's almost a given that The Batman isn't connected to the DCEU at this point. DC Extended Universe has no special notability over DC Films as a whole. Us assuming that upcoming films are in the DCEU is clear cut WP:OR, and we need to restructure the article The Suicide Squad (film) as well. The DCEU also isn't a single franchise with "installments". It's a shared universe. DarkKnight2149 00:31, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

Can each view briefly summarize the pros and cons of retooling the article? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:03, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Why it needs to be retooled in a few points:

• The DCEU didn't do well, and WB is focusing more on individual franchises instead of following a "shared universe" model moving forward (cited above). Some franchises are also branching off, and Todd Phillips' DC Black line of standalones was rejected because WB told him that any standalone like Joker will be made under the regular DC/WB label. As such, the DCEU holds no special notability above DC Films in general. It's certainly not some massive cohesive media franchise like the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
• Many upcoming films, such as The Suicide Squad and The Batman are also assumed to be in the DCEU purely on outdated sources and original research. The The Suicide Squad (film) definitely needs to be rewritten, as it claims that it's an "installment" in the DCEU when the producer has explicitly stated that it became a total reboot as soon as James Gunn took over (and there are no sources contradicting this). Retooling this page and merging it with DC Films would solve the issue of WP:OR by having a section that just says "Upcoming films".

* It is the umpteenth installment in the DC Extended Universe... also needs to be removed from every post-Wonder Woman 1984 article. The DC Extended Universe is a (basically defunct) shared universe made up of franchises, not a media franchise onto itself. Then you have films that have returning actors, but aren't in the DCEU, like The Suicide Squad. Frankly, there barely even is a DCEU as far as upcoming films are concerned. Just some loosely connected franchises.

Restructuring this article is pretty much a necessity, and so far, no one has presented anything substantive as to why it should stay the way it is... inaccurate and not notable as its own topic. DarkKnight2149 05:51, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: first of all, Jesus Christ has nothing to do with this article/nor this conversation. I would ask you kindly to not disrespect my Savior. Secondly, you claim that The Batman is "assumed" to be in the DCEU "based on outdated sources". You have no sources stating that the film is not DCEU. Meanwhile, Matt Reeves has confirmed that it is in fact a part of the DCEU. Thirdly, the 'DCEU' isn't even an official title. This was a lengthy discussion in the past. The films all together are a part of the same shared continuity and therefor, the same film franchise. The fact that WB's approach is now different compared to the MCU is not a fair argument (i.e.: WB is not Marvel). Also - give other editors time to respond to your claims. You cannot jump to saying that "so far, no one has presented anything substantative " if you don't give them time.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

P.S. I'll grab the sources that you claim are outdated. This is a suggestion that needs to bring in 'unbiased' editors. It cannot/will not be done simply by two editors that think a bunch of films are suddenly not a part of this 'DCEU' concept.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Sources for DCEU

The following information and sources are reliable sources that acknowledge the film franchise and confirm that the films are within the same franchise. (I will continue adding to this throughout the day... as I work full-time, friend. Cheers guys)--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:23, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

• The Batman: Collider and Slashfilm (both reliable sources) coraborate the fact that The Batman is DCEU, and that Matt Reeves was in fact stating that the film is DCEU. The references follow -- ref1 ref2 --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
• The Suicide Squad: Safran (who is a producer) was clearly speaking out of turn. The fact alone that multiple cast members are returning, confirms it is a follow-up to Suicide Squad. The film simply isn't a direct-sequel. There are such things as 'standalone sequels', and this one is obviously the case. The fact that Safran calls it a "reboot" is confusing, but that doesn't a reboot of the whole DCEU. It's simply the studio's RELAUNCH of the IP.
• Wonder Woman 1984: Producer Charles Roven stating that it is 'not a sequel' does not mean it is a reboot. He goes on to say "It’s a completely different time frame and you’ll get a sense of what Diana-slash–Wonder Woman had been doing in the intervening years." ...."intervening years" means what happened between Wonder Woman and Batman v Superman/Justice League. Vanity Fair further clarified that it is "chronological", while the writer/director Patty Jenkins continues, stating "It’s a stand-alone film in the same way that Indiana Jones or Bond films are".ref
• The Flash: Your argument above stated that because the filmmaker has confirmed that there are Flashpoint elements, that this automatically means that it will reboot the entire franchise. This as well is WP:OR. Andy Muschietti word-for-word stated that the project will be a: “different version of Flashpoint than you’re expecting". This alone negates your argument for said film. This interview can be read here (ref) and though That Hashtag Show is not the most reliable (as they often times report on other sources' articles), this one is directly from the filmmaker as an exclusive interview.
• Man of Steel sequel/follow-up: You stated that Michael B. Jordan is up for the role to replace Henry Cavill. This is not true, and a misquote from speculation and journalists assumptions. The FACTS are that Jordan approached WB with a pitch as to how he would adapt the character(ref1). We do not know whether he was proposing he'd portray the role, or what is proposition was. We also don't know if his pitch was about the Clark Kent incarnation of Superman. The actor later walked away from the idea, given his busy film schedule. Those are the FACTS. Furthermore, Cavill has since stated that A) He is still Superman, and not done with the role/has more to give in a more source-accurate capacity(ref2}; and B) His position in a Netflix series is why he hasn't reprised the role of Superman, but that futhermore - this series will no longer interfere with his role as Superman.{ref3). The most recent piece of news was that J. J. Abrams had entered negotiations to take control of the project(ref4). NONE of these events state what you had claimed. All OF THEM support that the DCEU as-is, is still a thing - and will continue on its current path.
• The New Gods: This one was an issue on this talkpage for a LONG time. Deadline (which is one of the most reliable sources) stated that it was a DCEU movie, while Variety stated that the project -at that time- had no connective tissue to other DC Films. Much was over-read into that statement (which to other readers/editors - including myself) meant that it is a 'standalone' installment/movie. Since then however, multiple reliable sources have stated that it is a part of the DCEU film franchise. I have listed these sources ad nauseam previously. (will attach if need be).
• Blackhawk: Here's an interesting one. There are multiple sources (RELIABLE) that state it is a DCEU movie... and there are absolutely none that say it is not. I have also attached TONS of these in previous discussions...
• Aquaman 2: The movie has the #2 in its current title...
• Shazam 2: Also has the #2....
• Black Adam: Dwayne Johnson has multiple times stated that Black Adam will build upon the mythos of the current "DCU"/DCEU, and that Shazam and Black Adam will battle in a future movie. This ties the film to Shazam! and for those that don't remember - Shazam! had TONS of DCEU references/callbacks/etc.

ALL of these things continue to build on my previous statements. The studio's decision to focus on individual stories before another team-up movie, does NOT mean that the current film series/"shared universe"/film franchise is dead (ref). The studio has simply realized they can't try to copy the MCU/another media franchise. Furthermore, filmmakers involved have coraborated the fact that the studio is focusing on individual movies, before another team-up movie (i.e.: Justice League sequel/followup ref1 ref2). The topic as a whole DEFINITELY/extensive and separate from other DC adaptations, and therefor should NOT be "retooled" as this section states. Revisions to the article are enough.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Much like how The Suicide Squad (now confirmed to be a reboot) started off as Suicide Squad 2, there has been no confirmation that The Batman has anything to do with the the DCEU since it began production. The script has also undergone rewrites since then , the latest of which was turned in in late-2018. It began development as a DCEU prequel way back when it was announced, and there has been zero confirmation that that's still the case. The casting of Jeffrey Wright as James Gordon makes it pretty evident that it's no longer the case. Unless you have a more current source, then yes, then the information you are going off of is outdated. It's like trying to use a scientific journal from 2005 to justify that Pluto is a planet. The source you provided was from August 2017 (before Justice League flopped and WB reshuffled executives and decided to move away from the cinematic universe direction). So yeah, completely outdated.

Your interpretation of the sources is also dishonest. The source batlantly says that they are going in a more franchise-oriented direction moving forward, not that that has been the case all along. To quote the source, "We all feel like we've turned a corner now. We're playing by the DC playbook, which is very different than the Marvel playbook," Emmerich said to the Hollywood Reporter. "We are far less focused on a shared universe. We take it one movie at a time. Each movie is its own equation and own creative entity. If you had to say one thing about us, it's that it always has to be about the directors." Other sources (including Variety) are 100% consistent with this as well , , , . And you are in fact assuming that all future films are in the DCEU by default. As Joebro mentioned earlier, your position seems to be backed largely by WP:IDONTLIKEIT and cherry-picked outdated references. DarkKnight2149 23:54, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: simply because there has been a "rewrite" on the script, does not mean a thing. That doesn't support your claims that it is reworked to be disconnected from the DCEU. Furthermore, the argument that Wright's casting does anything is the definition of WP:OR. Looking back to the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher films -- Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent in Batman, while Tommy Lee Jones played him in Batman Forever. This example, as well as Jeffrey Wright's casting as Jim Gordon have no effect on film's place in the film franchise. Additionally, stop assuming that I'm "cherry picking" sources. I have provided sources that state the film is in the franchise. Where are yours that supposedly state that it isn't? I have simply stated facts. I will continue to add films and their sources. I would also ask how my "interpretation of the sources is...dishonest"...? Where do you come off with these accusations?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

What are you on about? Virtually every single reliable source (again, including Variety) is reporting that The Batman is a reboot.

}}

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12/07/the-batman-new-movie-robert-pattinson-release-date-cast-plot-trailer-2021

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/the-batman-release-date-1203124294/

https://www.gamesradar.com/the-batman-2021-release-date-cast-villains-trailer/

https://ew.com/movies/2019/10/17/paul-dano-riddler-batman/

https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/16/18628675/robert-pattinson-new-batman-matt-reeves

https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/05/17/robert-pattinson-cast-as-batman-in-new-reboot/

Several of these sources also back up the producer's statement that The Suicide Squad is a reboot. The Batman has gone through several iterations and rewrites since it began development. The sources you presented are demonstrably outdated and were from before Justice League flopped, which is what ultimately prompted various WB executives to step down, most of the DCEU slate to get cancelled, and the company to move away from the shared universe model to begin with (events that have been covered in-depth by sources). If we're going by up-to-date reliable sources, The Suicide Squad and The Batman are reboots. Plain and simple.

On a side note, if Matt Reeves starts making decisions as bizarre as Joel Schumacher's Batman choices, then this movie is in biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig trouble. Just sayin'. DarkKnight2149 07:41, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: - the most reliable source you just attached was Variety, and nothing on that article stated that The Batman is not DCEU. Secondly, 'reboot' is a loose term in the sources you provided. The word 'reboot' in Entertainment Weekly source you provided was in regards to the character juxtaposed to previous Batman film series. Lastly, your Games Radar, IGN, Polygon, and ComicBook sources are journalists' observations. Once again - not direct/primary sources. Simply commentary on the topics. Also, Reeves won't make Schumacher mistakes.... I'm saying the fact that Jeffrey Wright was cast as Jim Gordon, makes no difference.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Actually, those are all reliable third party sources and reboot is a very specific term with a very specific meaning. There's also nothing to indicate that these are simply their "journalistic observations", especially when virtually every source is currently reporting it to be a reboot (the links I posted, which include Variety, are just a select few). I can't find any current source stating it's anything other than a reboot. DarkKnight2149 08:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

So, if I am to summarize the points of view, they would be that:

1. that retooling is necessary, since the terms used to define the series are - at best - vague or contradictory, or
2. that retooling is not necessary because the rest of us are simply misinterpreting the sources.
   

If I have misunderstood your view, please concisely (meaning one sentence only) correct my misinterpretation. I am trying to clearly define each point of view, so try to avoid responding to the other's views. Just state your own, please. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: The 'point of view' is under #Sources for DCEU that I just placed with reliable sources... A stronger definition of the film franchise - which doesn't have a title, is perhaps an issue that needs resolving - but it without debate is still an alive film franchise/film series/continuity/etc etc.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Position - the article is undoubtedly notable, and Encyclopedia noteworthy. Could it use some adjustments in the "development" sections with detailed coverage of the studio's revamping of the franchise? Yes. Should it be 'retooled' into an article that covers all DC Films or DC adaptaions? No. Regardless, it is not a thing of the past as several editors have suggested.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is proposing that this article be made to cover all DC adaptations. The proposal is to retool the article to cover DC Films specifically, the DC movie studio established in 2016 that encompasses the DCEU and films like Joker. Undoubtedly, retooling is absolutely needed because WB isn't focusing on a shared universe moving forward (which has been confirmed and verified in this very thread) and the current article automatically assumes that every upcoming DC movie (including reported reboots like The Batman and The Suicide Squad) are in the DCEU, which is blatant WP:OR. DCEU holds no special notability over DC Films, and most of DisneyMetalHead's claims are coming from outdated sources. DarkKnight2149 08:13, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

I would agree with Darkknight here, it is clear that DC is not just focused on a single shared universe like Marvel. The article should reflect their approach, which still includes DCEU movies but is branching back out into standalone stories as well. - adamstom97 (talk) 11:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Looking over #Sources for DCEU and elsewhere, DisneyMetalHead sure is doing a lot of interpreting to justify why the sources supposedly don't mean what they actually say. Case of point - "Safran (who is a producer) was clearly speaking out of turn. The fact alone that multiple cast members are returning, confirms it is a follow-up to Suicide Squad. The film simply isn't a direct-sequel." - First of all, this blatant WP:OR. Film producers have more control than the director does, and there is nothing to suggest that he was "speaking out of turn". Cast members returning also doesn't automatically mean that it's in the same continuity, as we have seen with Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance and other franchises. Every third party source is currently reporting The Batman and The Suicide Squad to be reboots in actual news articles, which DisneyMetalHead is also trying to dance around.

DisneyMetalHead's "sources" for The New Gods also further demonstrate why the page needs to be retooled. As for the Man of Steel section, the sources once again state that WB is in the process of completely rebooting Superman to make him "relevant" to modern audiences, and the Michael B. Jordan thing is backed by Variety. Henry Cavill has also been widely reported to have been retired from the Superman role by WB. Cavill simply expressing an interest in reprising the role changes nothing. Jared Leto expressed an interest in returning as the Joker, and actively tried to get the Joaquin Phoenix movie cancelled, and sources are reporting that WB has no interest in bringing him back either. DarkKnight2149 08:34, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

The Deadline source cited for New Gods doesn't even say it's a DCEU film, and in fact implies the opposite because it says there is "no connection to the other DC worlds being exploited for film right now by Warner Bros." JOEBRO64 12:56, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

So, where is the middle ground here? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Here's a source recent/new -- Christina Hodson (writer of Birds of Prey) refers to the franchise as a 'universe'. The question was asked if there will be connections to "other DCEU" films, and her response was that she didn't want to give anything away. That it'd be a continuation of Suicide Squad while standing on its own. That's the difference here between 'reboot' vs standalone/relaunch (ref).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: and @Darkknight2149: you clearly have not read the sources I provided. I stated that The Suicide Squad film is "tricky" because of the verbage that has been used. The Variety source also didn't state that The Batman is a reboot. Additionally, each of the sources I have placed are not 'out of date'. The Michael B. Jordan detail was mentioned in-passing and referring to 'earlier in the year' (of 2019). Frankly, Cavill's more recent comments/confirmations are more up-to-date than a statement saying that Jordan had pitched an idea to WB....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:41, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: the middle-ground would be to adjust this page to where everyone agrees. It doesn't need to be rolled into the DC Films article, as that article is a film studio/label. If everyone wants to add to that page - that would be constructive. Finding movies/projects that people believe shouldn't be on here, would require the studio stating that it is not part of the same franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:43, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 come out this year and began production over 2-3 years ago, so those aren't exactly valid as far as your DCEU argument is concerned. It's largely the post-Wonder Woman 1984 films that we're concerned with. Henry Cavill also didn't make a "confirmation" of any sort. He expressed an interest in returning, which doesn't mean anything considering that he's not a WB executive and doesn't have any creative control. DarkKnight2149 17:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

"I stated that The Suicide Squad film is "tricky" because of the verbage that has been used." - The sources listed directly call it a reboot (which is a specific term with a specific meaning) and the film's producer flat out stated that it's no longer called Suicide Squad 2 because it's a total reboot. It doesn't get any clearer than that. This is a quintessential WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument. DarkKnight2149 18:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

If we were to merge this article into DC Films, what would we do with Man of Steel and BvS? Since they preceded the creation of DC Films but are still clearly in the same franchise and continuity than those films which followed them. Would we have a "DC Extended Universe" section in which they would also be mentioned? Would it be a "Background" section? Either way we should give it some thought. El Millo (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Mentioning it in a background section or in the DCEU section would both be viable options. After all, those are the two films that laid the groundwork for DC Films' initial slate. DarkKnight2149 20:58, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: Birds of Prey began production, literally January of last year. Walter Hamada (head of DC Films) was already hired by that point, and had taken control of the studio/label's output. Therefor, your argument regarding the films following his hiring -- are all invalid. Hamada had plenty of time to alter/cancel projects, as you're suggesting he's done with The Suicide Squad (which is also referred to as Suicide Squad 2 by multiple sources) and The Batman. A prime example of this actually happening would be Kevin Feige taking control of Marvel Television - and cancelling many of the TV shows that were in development, prior to his consolidation of Marvel TV into Marvel Studios. A statement that supports this, Christina Hodson (writer of Birds of Prey), who is now working on The Flash stated that there are studio executives who work under Hamada, who are in charge of making sure that there are connections between the movies moving forward. After being asked about how the DCEU connects now and moving forward, she literally she says: "DC itself the ones overseeing ...Obviously, there's been a change in leadership there. Walter Hamada really knows what he's doing. He's so good at his job. And he has a real love for these characters and for this material, so it's looking to him more than anything. And obviously, with a lot of us, we've gotten to know each other, especially the writers, we all have friends now, which is lovely. We read each other's stuff and help each other. But yeah, mostly it's going through Walter and DC."(ref) There's a studio involved person telling us how the structure of this franchise/the DCEU works moving forward. We don't need to figure it out ourselves (that would be WP:OR). Also, @Darkknight2149: -- I am not merely stating these things for WP:IDONTLIKEIT reasons. Secondly - Cavill's management has repeatedly stated that he is still Superman. Those are the facts.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Your source talks about how the company DC Films will be managed moving forward, but it doesn't say anything about WB being focused on a shared universe, and statements that WB themselves made to sources like The Hollywood Reporter would trump anything that a hired screenwriter would say if she were to contradict them (which she didn't). When she said "franchise", she was referring to DC as a whole. Nowhere does it specify a focus on the Snyderverse moving forward.

Even Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 are more standalone focused. One is set in a "parallel timeline" with Harley Quinn serving as an unreliable narrator and where Batman is absent from Gotham City, the other has been distanced from the word "sequel" by Patti Jenkins and is set in the 1980s. And of course, Batman and Suicide Squad are getting (soft?) reboots. This all shows that WB is moving away from the shared universe model, not the opposite. Notice how your source refers to Birds of Prey as a "standalone" and every upcoming movie is being referred to as a "standalone". The DCEU is very likely being phased out, and all of the sources point towards them moving away from a shared universe. Your passionate insistence that we keep everything the way it is (original research and all) baffles me.

As for Henry Cavill, are you referring to this? Because all it is is Henry Cavill saying that he hasn't given up on the role and wants to return. The Superman situation isn't up to Henry Cavill, unfortunately. Jared Leto found that out the hard way when he tried to get the Joker movie cancelled behind-the-scenes at Warner Brothers. DarkKnight2149 23:03, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: There really isn't a middle ground here. DisneyMetalHead is literally suggesting that every upcoming DC movie be treated as DCEU until WB specifically says that it's not. That is not how our verifiability policies work. DisneyMetalHead has also been heavily cherry-picking when it comes to sources, and when presented with contradictory citations from reliable sources (such as Variety and THR), s/he tries to reinterpret it as "Oh, that's not what they ACTUALLY meant."

• The producer of The Suicide Squad explicitly stated that the film is a total reboot, and every current source is reporting it as such. That isn't good enough for DisneyMetalHead.
• Most current news sources are currently calling The Batman a reboot and none of them say anything about it being in the DCEU. That isn't good enough for DisneyMetalHead, who is going off of outdated sources from before Justice League was released and subsequently bombed at the box office.
• I linked a source from The Hollywood Reporter published in 2019 where a WB executive directly stated that they are moving away from their shared universe method and focusing on individual franchises moving forward. In response, DisneyMetalHead has been trying to synthesise as many sources as they can to justify why that isn't actually the case.
• Now DisneyMetalHead has linked a news article about the hired screenwriter of Birds of Prey discussing WB's approach to upcoming films, and it doesn't say anything about WB focusing on a shared universe moving forward. The screenwriter of a single movie also doesn't trump the statement from Warner Brothers themselves published by The Hollywood Reporter.

However, I don't think it matters too much in the long run. There is a growing consensus for the page to be retooled, and only one person has supported DisneyMetalHead so far, and they have only done so solely on the basis of Wonder Woman 1984 existing (which, like Birds of Prey, began development shortly after the first film in 2017 and is about to be released). DarkKnight2149 02:40, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

DisneyMetalhead, is Darkknight2149 correct in his evaluation? Do you want to consider every movie to be within the DCEU unless sources explicitly state that it is not? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:45, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: Absolutely not. @Darkknight2149: keeps assuming the worst in each of my comments. I am not cherry-picking, nor am I trying to state that all DC Films are related unless otherwise clarified. My argument is that, Christina Hodson responded to questions positioned to her regarding the future of the DCEU, and Birds of Prey's connections to it. In the interview she explicitly laid out how the structure and organizational planning of the film franchise is and will continue. Notably, she is also the screenwriter for The Flash and will follow that up with Batgirl. Those are my statements. Those are the facts from these sources. Likewise, Darkknight2149 stated that "only one person has supported" me... Regardless of this fact, I have only cited reliable sources throughout this discussion.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

Sidenotes: @Darkknight2149: previously stated that Birds of Prey was unrelated to Suicide Squad, while - here is Margot Robbie (star/PRODUCER) stating that she knows the 'backstory' of what has happened in-universe between Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey... The editor previously stated that a producer 'trumps' all others involved... (where do they get this logic from, I wonder?) -- so therefore, this irrefutably confirms that Birds of Prey is a Suicide Squad follow-up. She states: "From the very beginning it was a conscious choice of they have to be broken up at this stage...I have a whole backstory in my head what's happened between what you saw at the end of Suicide Squad and what you see at the beginning of Birds of Prey."(ref).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:24, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The problem is that the sources, once again, don't actually say what you claim they do. In your latest quotation, you missed the part where Margot Robbie said that she formulated a backstory in her head for Harley Quinn. This has nothing to do with the movie's continuing to follow a shared universe model: "I have a whole backstory in my head what's happened between what you saw at the end of Suicide Squad and what you see at the beginning of Birds of Prey". You also continue to miss the point that we are primarily discussing WB's post-Wonder Woman 1984 slate, not the two movies that went into development back in 2017 and come out this year. I don't think anyone here has a strong problem with Birds of Prey or Wonder Woman 1984 specifically being classified as DCEU.

As for your other sources, literally nothing in there confirms anything about WB continuing to follow a shared universe model moving forward (as you keep claiming) - "Honestly, a lot of it is DC itself the ones overseeing ," Hodson revealed to ComicBook.com at a press event. "Obviously, there's been a change in leadership there. Walter Hamada really knows what he's doing. He's so good at his job. And he has a real love for these characters and for this material, so it's looking to him more than anything. And obviously, with a lot of us, we've gotten to know each other, especially the writers, we all have friends now, which is lovely. We read each other's stuff and help each other. But yeah, mostly it's going through Walter and DC." She's describing the company structure and deferring to WB's executives. Some of the DCEU writers have read each other's scripts (back when she was writing Birds of Prey), but now it's all going through Walter Hamada. Nothing in there confirms anything about a continued shared universe model for DC's upcoming slate, and as a hired screenwriter for a single movie that she wrote two years ago, she wouldn't be qualified to give out that information anyway. Once again, here's what actual WB had to say about it: "We all feel like we've turned a corner now. We're playing by the DC playbook, which is very different than the Marvel playbook. We are far less focused on a shared universe. We take it one movie at a time. Each movie is its own equation and own creative entity. If you had to say one thing about us, it's that it always has to be about the directors."

My information is also coming from the likes of Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, WB executives, and the actual producers, whereas you keep (unintentionally, I assume) misquoting actors and screenwriters while also pointing to outdated sources from 2017. Much of your "interpretations" of the sources also fall under WP:SYN. DarkKnight2149 04:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

As for The Suicide Squad: Here's some interviews from Jai Courtney (an actor, whom editors have stated 'trump' reliable-sourced articles) stating that The Suicide Squad is a sequel by confirming that he is reprising his role, back with the gang, and calling Suicide Squad "the first movie" while talking about this second one. Lastly he states "I'm pumped, there's a bunch of us that come back". He also continues to call the film "Skwad" (i.e.: This was the cast's abbreviated film title from the first film, that they all got tattooed on eachother)(ref1&ref2)...there's clearly conflicting comments on this film. However, here is one of the main actors stating that this is a "reprise" of the Captain Boomerang role. According to Webster's Dictionary, "Reprise" in a verb form means: A repeated performance(ref).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:54, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "an actor, whom editors have stated 'trump' reliable-sourced articles" Literally nobody said that. I actually said the opposite - statements from reliable sources, producers, and studio executives trump statements from hired actors and screenwriters (who don't make decisions as far as franchise directions and continuity is concerned). But that doesn't matter, because you are still twisting sources into something they're not.

"Here's some interviews from Jai Courtney (an actor, whom editors have stated 'trump' reliable-sourced articles) stating that The Suicide Squad is a sequel by confirming that he is reprising his role, back with the gang, and calling Suicide Squad "the first movie" while talking about this second one. Lastly he states "I'm pumped, there's a bunch of us that come back" Literally none of this confirms that it's a sequel. To "reprise" or to "come back" means to play the same role you did in another movie. If Heath Ledger came down from the heavens and played the Joker in Suicide Squad, he would be reprising his role (even though Suicide Squad has nothing to do with The Dark Knight). JK Simmons reprised his role as J. Jonah Jameson in Spider-Man: Far From Home, which has nothing to do with the Raimi films. ETC. Suicide Squad (2016) is also "the first movie" because it's the first adaptation of the Suicide Squad comics. None of this says anything about continuity.

Several sources a lot more reliable than ComingSoon.Net, including Variety and the film's producer, are flat out calling it a reboot. Are you really arguing with the actual producer of the movie? DarkKnight2149 05:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Say, why don't we (meaning DisneyMetalhead) and Darkknight2149) try this ONE MORE TIME: Explain your position:

1. IN ONE, BRIEF SENTENCE (and one sentence ONLY), and
2. without attacking the other guys position

I do not need refs (I can see them). I do not need to be told where the hole in another user's viewpoint (its counterproductive).
I want to hear each viewpoint, stated simply. It should not be hard to do, right? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:08, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: There's too much nuance to properly water it down to a single sentence. You can tell my position by reading the proposal by me and TheJoebro64 at the top of the section (his comment and my first response to it). If you read DisneyMetalHead's first one or two responses to that, you can get an idea of why s/he opposes it.

The short version: Me and TheJoebro proposed that the article be retooled and merged with DC Films (the studio article) to reflect DC's film slate, because WB isn't focusing on a shared universe moving forward and there is a lot of WP:OR about upcoming films (such as The Batman, The New Gods, and The Suicide Squad) taking place in the DCEU. So far, me, Joebro, and adamstom.97 all support this.

DisneyMetalHead is vehemently against this because s/he thinks the article is perfectly fine the way it is, and (contrary to statements from WB) that the DCEU will continue for the foreseeable future in its current form. DarkKnight2149 05:27, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

(why is it so hard to follow a simple two-part request?)

Let me give it a try, Dark: You think the article needs to be retooled and merged with DC films to reflect DC Film's overall release schedule.

Is that a fair assessment of your (an d JoeBro's) view? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:34, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

In a (very compact) nutshell, yes. That is correct. DarkKnight2149 05:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Cool; compact is what I was looking for. How about you, DisneyMetalhead? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

My position remains: This article, could use some adjustments in the "development" sections with detailed coverage of the studio's revamping of the franchise, but that it shouldn't be 'retooled' into an article that covers all DC Films (which is a studio label); because there are various reliable sources which state the opposite of what is being proposed. This article is about a film series/franchise, not a list of studio releases.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:00, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Okay, allow me to condense/summarize your view (and feel free to correct me if I get it wrong), DisneyMetalhead: you also think the article needs adjustments, but not to the point where the article bloats up with every DC film. Is that close to what your position? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I think what DMH is saying is that we should still treat DC's film slate as a single shared universe franchise with just a note that interconnectivity has been downplayed. The problem with that approach is that ignores that WB explicitly said the shared universe is no longer a focus at all in the THR reference Darkknight provided above. Merging this with DC Films would help rectify the issues we have when it comes to classifying films like The Batman and New Gods. JOEBRO64 16:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I must have missed that bit about WB explicitly stating that the shared universe is "no longer a focus"; could you please link that reference here? I am not rendering my own opinion (yet), but am making sure that the terrain before us is completely illuminated.- Jack Sebastian (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: it's in here. JOEBRO64 22:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

It should be clarified that the only film not to be included in the DC Extended Universe but that would be included in a merger with DC Films as of now is Joker. El Millo (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I would consider that a woefully inaccurate assessment, Facu-el Millo. There are several films that do not fall within the DCEU banner, according to (apparently) consensus. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm going by the table present at DC Films. And Joker is apparently the only one where the consensus is clearly that it isn't part of the DCEU. El Millo (talk) 18:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I think The Kitchen was a DC Films production as well, but yes, Joker was their first non-DCEU production since they dropped the shared universe approach. JOEBRO64 16:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

If you're referring to The Kitchen, it was by DC Vertigo. El Millo (talk) 17:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I know that DC Vertigo is credited, but isn't it still a DC Films production? I know just "DC" is credited on most films based on DC's main comic line. JOEBRO64 17:35, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Hamada is not credited on the film, so I assume it is not a DC Films production. Not sure why. Prefall 17:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC)e

@Jack Sebastian: your understanding is correct. I agree that this article needs some work, and definitely needs a more extensive coverage of the fact that the studio has restructured their original plans. However, I disagree that all DC Films should be combined. Especially since this article is referring to a series of films, while DC Films is a film studio/label. @TheJoebro64: I have also not seen any reliable source from Warner Bros. Pictures, that "explicitly states that a shared universe is not longer a focus". Please attach it.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Also, The Kitchen was/is definitely a DC Films release. DC Films is the studio label/subsidiary of Warner Bros. for all DC related films. Another film that has no relation to the DCEU but falls under their release slate is the Super Pets animated movie.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

It isn't. There is no mention of DC Films in the article, nor in the credits at the official website. To compare, the official website for Joker has the DC Films logo amongst its credits. El Millo (talk) 19:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Another sidenote to consider: DCEU has always been an unofficial title. Warner Bros. has stated they never call it that, while individuals involved with the films have referred to it as the DCU. Its notably difficult to argue its favor, when the title alone is unofficial. The studio did however release extensive coverage of their presence at Comic-Con 2018 where they referred to the entire film slate as "Worlds of DC". Additionally there was a special on television where individuals involved continuously called the film series, the "Justice League Universe". With various monikers, again we can't pointedly argue in favor of an article without an official name.
Recently, the DCEU 'crossed over' with the Arrowverse in their "Crisis of Infinite Earths" event. Perhaps an adjusted title of "DC Film multiverse", which would have a sub-section for television acknowledging the Arrowverse/its crossover, and sub-sections for the "DCEU film" slate, and standalone releases(?). The would be constructive, helpful, and resolve this discussion. What this would do is change the debate, seeing as reliable sources still call this film slate the DCEU, while also keeping DC Films article separate - which is a film studio label and not a franchise. This would also allow coverage of the fact that Joker was announced as a separate banner "DC Black", but became just a standalone 'one-and-done' movie. @Jack Sebastian:, @TheJoebro64:, @Prefall:, @Darkknight2149:, @Facu-el Millo:, @Dipralb: (all editors who have commented on this discussion) -- Thoughts?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

No, classifying all non-DCEU films as part of the "multiverse" is ridiculous WP:INUNIVERSE and WP:OR. Again, WB has explicitly stated that they aren't focusing on a shared universe anymore. This article needs to reflect that. Bringing back actors or continuing specific films doesn't magically change that, and Facu-el Millo's assessment is wildly inaccurate. The Suicide Squad is a confirmed reboot, The Batman is reportedly a reboot, The New Gods has been stated not to be part of the DCEU, The Flash is confirmed to be adapting Flashpoint (which will probably solve DC's shared universe problem), Joker may very well get a sequel and WB is considering making more character study supervillain films, and even Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 are being heavily touted as "standalones".

We have to go by the actual sources (not DisneyMetalHead's erroneous WP:SYN and interpretation of sources), and right now, there is zero reason to keep the article the way it is. The DCEU holds no special notability over DC Films, and DisneyMetalHead's extreme insistence that we maintain focus on a shared universe feels incredibly biased at this point. DarkKnight2149 19:56, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: my assessment was in favor of your proposal. DisneyMetalhead is still contesting that those films you mention (The Batman, The Suicide Squad, etc.) are part of the DCEU, that's why I said that the only case we all agree isn't part of the DCEU is Joker, which would be the only one of those listed in DC Films that isn't already listed in the DCEU article. El Millo (talk) 20:06, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

My mistake. Thank you for clarifying. DarkKnight2149 20:09, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 3: finding common ground

Okay, the common thread I am interpreting from the mix of commentary above is that the article is unsuitable as it is currently, and needs to be revised.
I think it would be helpful if - and I am just throwing this out there - to recognize that there are not that many films in the DCEU. The DCEU is a term that was not invented by a studio (and hasn't really been in active use since 2017). There is no agreed-upon, rock-solid name for the films that explicitly connect with one another, from BvS through Justice League. There have been trilogies, to be sure, and the Arrowverse was pretty much the only one that even tried to connect the multiverse (and even then, with only limited success).
I think that acknowledging that - unless it is explicitly stated that a film is part of a shared, interacting universe (ie, Batman calls upon John Jonzz for a cup of sugar or whatev), we cannot make the assumption that it is.
It also changes significantly the trajectory of this article's goals.
Let's try creating encapsulated sections, by (maybe) year of release. That way, Nolan's Batman series is set apart by itself, just like Burton's and Schumacher's versions. While I think that the peregrine view is that DC has abandoned its attempt to mimic the MCU, no one has presented here an explicit link that states that. By segregating the films by year and grouping, we can avoid the DCEU arguments wherein we are using crappy, vague sources to argue fan gossip into reality.
Of course, this is just one approach to the problem; your mileage may vary. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

There's a couple of things wrong here, though.

"While I think that the peregrine view is that DC has abandoned its attempt to mimic the MCU, no one has presented here an explicit link that states that" -Yes, I actually have. Numerous times.

That way, Nolan's Batman series is set apart by itself, just like Burton's and Schumacher's versions. - Those wouldn't factor into the retooled page at all. The proposal was for this article to be merged with the DC Films article, so it would only cover Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and the DC Films studio slate (which includes Joker and the upcoming films). You are thinking of List of films based on DC Comics, which doesn't enter the equation. The Suicide Squad was also confirmed by the film's producer to be a reboot, and most reliable news sources are currently calling The Batman a reboot. None of that is gossip. DarkKnight2149 21:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I think one thing that's worth noting is that the DC Films article is basically a stub, and I think it will remain so unless merged. There's not much to say about it that isn't directly tied to films/franchises, so it strikes me as a case of "notability" being inherited. JOEBRO64 22:44, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for re-supplying the link, JoeBro64; it had gotten lost in the wall of text.

Secondly, now is the time for you to suggest a specific plan forward. It feels like trying to deconstruct other plans is both counterproductive and argumentative. Propose solutions, not problems. Try that again - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:08, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Jack, our proposal is at the top of the section. It's to retool the page so that the focus is on the DC Films studio and their larger film slate, rather than putting too much WP:WEIGHT on the shared universe itself. This would also eliminate WP:OR in regard to upcoming films supposedly being part of a shared universe. We would:

• Merge DC Films with this article and discuss their entire movie slate (including the DCEU and non-DCEU standalones) here.
• For the immediate future, remove It is the umpteenth installment in the DC Extended Universe from the leads of all post-Wonder Woman 1984 DC movie articles, since they aren't focusing on a shared universe moving forward. This can always be re-added if something changes closer to those films' release.
• Create sections in the new DC Films article for the Shared Universe (Man of Steel through Wonder Woman 1984), Standalone Films (Joker and the other films that don't stand with any franchise), and Future (for any upcoming films, eliminating WP:OR as far as the DCEU is concerned). There would be other standard sections, such as movie crossovers with television, box office, Reception, ETC.

I hope that explains it. So far, there seems to be a growing consensus for this. DarkKnight2149 03:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Darkknight, that does indeed explain it. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: your observation regarding The Flash film incorporating Flashpoint concepts and that it will have the same influence on the DCEU as it did in the comics - is definition of WP:OR. Also, you continue to state that reliable sources say that New Gods has no connection, while I have supplied various sources that state that it is. Additionally, a confirmation from Reeves stating that The Batman is DCEU is a direct source. In contrast and notably so, James Gunn has remained silent regarding The Suicide Squad as a "reboot" as the producer stated....--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

your observation regarding The Flash film incorporating Flashpoint concepts and that it will have the same influence on the DCEU as it did in the comics - is definition of WP:OR. - It's only WP:OR if I were advocating for us to say that in the actual article space. My overall point is that stating it's in a shared universe is what's WP:OR in this situation.

Also, you continue to state that reliable sources say that New Gods has no connection, while I have supplied various sources that state that it is. - You also pointed out reliable sources stating that it isn't.

Additionally, a confirmation from Reeves stating that The Batman is DCEU is a direct source. - We've been over this. Your one source is from 2017, back before Justice League was released and subsequently flopped (causing WB to fire most of their producers and completely shift direction). Most current third party sources are reporting it to be a reboot, and absolutely none of them make the claim that it's still in the DCEU. Heck, even Matt Reeves statement on Twitter from August 2017 that you keep citing is somewhat vague.

In contrast and notably so, James Gunn has remained silent regarding The Suicide Squad as a "reboot" as the producer stated - You are aware that in Hollywood productions, the producers have more control over the director right? The producer is literally the director of the director. James Gunn has remained silent because it's not his place to decide what film is in what continuity. Not only did the producer say that it's a total reboot, but every reliable source including Variety is reporting it as such. So we definitely can't claim that it's part of the DCEU. DarkKnight2149 22:45, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: the producer is not literally the director of the director. That is inaccurate. In some cases, they may take control of a film but that is definitely not a defining characteristic. The sources regarding The Batman - again do not state that WB has classified the film as a reboot. That's just fact. They haven't. The only source related to the project that has said anything is Matt Reeves - writer/director/producer. Secondly, James Gunn came onboard to direct The Suicide Squad once the script for its original title Suicide Squad 2 was deemed too similar to Birds of Prey... needless to say he was hired long before Safran made his comment. Lastly, New Gods has reliable sources since that state it is DCEU. So the definitions and parameters you have set in place, are all void by one avenue or another.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

1) How are the titles remotely similar? 2) You're going to need a source for that. 3) You're also going to need a source stating that Gunn signed onto the project before Safran. 4) We are not in a hurry. If The Batman is part of a shared universe, it will eventually get confirmed either way. Your one source is from before Justice League flopped, before the company changed direction from the shared universe model, and before the final draft of the script was written. 5) Yes, producers generally have more control than the director in big studio films. 6) It's not ambiguous. Every major primary and secondary source is currently saying that The Suicide Squad is a reboot. That's just how verifiability works on Misplaced Pages. DarkKnight2149 06:07, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: you're going to have to clarify what you mean by all your numbers. Gunn was attached to the project before Safran was producer. He was hired to write the script in October 2018, while Peter Safran was announced as producer in January 2019. There is no hurry, but there is again no references stating that The Batman is not DCEU. However there are plenty that have stated that it is - including the writer/director/producer Matt Reeves. Doesn't get more direct than that. As for New Gods - I've already attached the sources various times, which indirectly had influence over the initiation of this entire conversation.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 05:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore @Darkknight2149:, where's your credible source stating that Peter Safran (who is nothing more than a producer on the project, as well as in-general) is in control of The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2? --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 05:14, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

"Nothing more than a producer" is a fallacy, and literally every primary and secondary source is reporting it to be a reboot. We have a source from WB themselves stating a shift in focus away from the shared universe, and in the case of The Batman (which is currently reported to be a reboot by most reliable third party news sources), making no claim is preferable to making a poorly sourced one. We're dancing in circles, and the discussion has died down. I think it's time to start wrapping this up or getting other users involved. DarkKnight2149 07:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: obviously there is no definitive answer to this. Which is why I suggested leaving it as-is until WB themselves confirms anything. Where's your source that Safran is anything more than a producer? That is all he is credited for: fact. Additionally, in case you haven't seen it yet - in Birds of Prey, Harley Quinn literally teases the "new Batman movie" with the trailer beginning before cutting to black. It's connected.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

By that logic, James Gunn is "nothing more than a director." And the WB statement is "nothing more than an executive." And so on. "Nothing more than a producer" is a fallacy. Every primary and secondary source says that The Suicide Squad is a reboot, and "producer" isn't a chump position. It's as simple as that. I'm also going to need to see a source for that tease. It can't just be you saying it.

Just because Batman exists in the Birds of Prey universe doesn't mean it's connected to The Batman. DarkKnight2149 06:44, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: I'm not saying that being a producer is "a chump position". I'm saying he is the producer. That does not mean that he is in charge of the film, as you have indicated. Also, your source for the Batman tease will be once you see the movie, I guess.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 09:07, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, producers oversee the production of the film. A producer saying that it's a reboot, coupled with every third party source including Variety, is as valid a confirmation as it gets. And what is this Batman tease? Because them mentioning the character doesn't mean it's connected to The Batman. Superman was mentioned in Batman and Robin and Spider-Man 2 mentioned Doctor Strange, and those weren't connected to anything.

It would not only need to reference Batman, but there would need to be direct proof that they are referencing Robert Pattinson's Batman specifically. Harley Quinn is a Batman villain, Black Mask is a Batman villain, Zsasz is a Batman villain, so it makes sense that a version of Batman gets mentioned. Considering the film began production two years ago, they might be even be referencing Ben Affleck's Batman. DarkKnight2149 09:16, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: A few things:

• 1. You'll see, once you see the movie.
• 2. A producer funds the movie. Yes, some situations they have more control. As I've shown Gunn was attached before Safran. You'll need a source stating that Safran is controlling the film.
• 3. Also, the word "reboot" is a word that is more loosely used in today's media. It doesn't mean what it has in the past.
• 4. New sources confirming its connected: In a very recent interview Margot Robbie, states that though Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2 aren't "directly connected" "You keep getting to meet her at different points in her life, as if a couple of years have gone by....I can map it out in a chronological sense. So, it's fun to see 'Okay, what was she like a couple of years ago when she was with Mister J?' 'What is she like now, after they've broken up? And what is she going to be like in another couple of years' time?' I love seeing her at these different stages of her life."(ref1). In the same article, Sue Kroll (who is also a producer on Birds of Prey) states that though Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad are developed as "standalone" installments - they are connected: "...because the world is the world, there are these very interesting organic connections, I think, that end up evolving, but there wasn't any kind of consultation among the filmmakers on the movies."(ref2).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:26, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

"You'll need to have a source stating that he has more control. - No, we don't. DarkKnight2149 22:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: Yes you absolutely will to support your claims. Safran's only capacity right now is as producer. This does not mean that he is in control of the film. Also, those sources I provided states that Birds of Prey is connected to The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

P.S. you misquoted me^. What I said was: "You'll need a source stating that Safran is controlling the film."--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:06, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

A producer is a perfectly valid confirmation. Third party sources including Variety are all reporting the same thing. We're not going to jump through mental hoops to justify why it's not. None of your statements directly confirm ties to a larger shared universe. I'm done with this argument. DarkKnight2149 22:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

We sort of seem to be going in circles right now. Perhaps an RFC to decide this? JOEBRO64 23:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I haven't seen Birds of Prey yet, but apparently Robert Pattinson's Batman reboot is in fact never referenced, Ben Affleck (who is retired at this point) does not make an appearance and his character is suspiciously absent from Gotham City, and the only references to an outside universe are brief flashbacks to Harley's origin in Suicide Squad and Harley naming her pet after "that hunky Wayne guy." So as sources have indicated, this film is either:

1. Set in a literal parallel timeline to the DCEU.

2. Set in general continuity of the DCEU, but it is just as standalone-focused as every other upcoming DC film.

3. A standalone sequel to Suicide Squad and likely isn't setting a precedent for The Suicide Squad or any other upcoming films.

Either way, we know that Wonder Woman 1984 is also a standalone film that isn't considered a sequel by the film's director. The Batman is almost certainly a total reboot. The Suicide Squad is a total reboot, per every current primary and secondary source. And we already have a consensus for a page retool (several users have supported the position that the upcoming films aren't focusing on the shared universe and the only person strongly against it is DisneyMetalHead). I'm about to post another Arbitrary Break to hopefully wrap all of this up and gather any last minute comments/votes. DarkKnight2149 21:51, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 4

@Darkknight2149: A consensus is not based off of votes. That's not how this works. Secondly, the fact that you haven't seen Birds of Prey explains your in-descript statements on the film. The cast of Birds of Prey state here in an interview with MTV that they may appear in a future Batman film with Robert Pattinson. Robbie is a producer for Birds of Prey. By your own analysis - producers control everything. Additionally, Birds of Prey references Suicide Squad throughout, while also referencing The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2 with the reemergence of Captain Boomerang.

Furthermore - as stated before, here is further proof that The Suicide Squad will indeed be connected. "You keep getting to meet her at different points in her life, as if a couple of years have gone by....I can map it out in a chronological sense. So, it's fun to see 'Okay, what was she like a couple of years ago when she was with Mister J?' 'What is she like now, after they've broken up? And what is she going to be like in another couple of years' time?' I love seeing her at these different stages of her life."(ref1). In the same article, Sue Kroll (who is also a producer on Birds of Prey) states that though Birds of Prey and The Suicide Squad are developed as "standalone" installments - they are connected: "...because the world is the world, there are these very interesting organic connections, I think, that end up evolving, but there wasn't any kind of consultation among the filmmakers on the movies."(ref2). --DisneyMetalhead (talk) 22:41, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Consensus is determined by the majority viewpoint in discussion based on sources, and right now, even the sources you just provided blatantly state the upcoming films are all going in a standalone direction. WB themselves have said that they are moving away from the shared universe model and going in a standalone-focused direction, especially since Justice League flopped. Notably, Sue Kroll also says that there wasn't any consultation between the filmmakers and she isn't even involved with The Suicide Squad. Any upcoming films like Joker are also getting made under the regular DC banner. Let's face it, there really isn't a singular "media franchise" or shared universe anymore. Most people here agree that the sources indicate a standalone-focused direction for DC's films. That's a consensus.

In retrospect, the decision to split DC Films and DC Extended Universe falls heavily under WP:RECENTISM, WP:WEIGHT, and even WP:CRYSTAL in terms of assuming that this was going to last as some crossover-focused wholly interconnected direction like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. There's no reason to keep this merry-go-round going. DarkKnight2149 23:14, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: it is not however an election, nor a vote. The sources provided simply state that the directors/filmmakers are allowed freedom to focus on individualized characters instead of a building/over-arching story like Marvel. It does not state that the film franchise is over. What Sue Kroll states is that the return of Captain Boomerang in Birds of Prey was because there were discussions to connect it and The Suicide Squad/Suicide Squad 2 together "organic". That is exactly what is stated. It is connected to each other. Again, it is presumptuous to state that the franchise is "over" - when it continues to release critically acclaimed films. My analogy would be - that the football team (Warner Bros. Pictures) changed their game-plan (technique), not the entire sport (DCEU). I have stated multiple times that this article needs to explore that fact in more detail. I completely disagree however that DC Films (which is a film studio label), should be compiled with this page - which is about a functioning/current film series franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

And finally, here are studio producers acknowledging that it is a shared universe. Bryn Unkeless and Sue Kroll were both producers (with Robbie) on Birds of Prey. The interviewer asks them: "'s so uniquely different than all the other DC movies but fits right in the heart of it. Can you talk to me about how difficult it might have been to balance both? Since this is an existing universe." Unkeless states, and elaborates by saying: "Yeah, it's interesting. Of course, you're working within the DC sandbox, and you want to be really respectful to the characters and to the fan base and try to get as much character detail in as possible. But at some point, you just have to focus on the story at hand and let that lead you. It's an inside-out way of doing it." The producers don't correct the interviewer that the "universe is over". They simply state that the game plan is to focus on individualized stories/characters. Just because they don't follow the Marvel Studios approach, does not mean that it's a cancelled franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 01:46, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

They simply state that the game plan is to focus on individualized stories/characters. - Which is exactly what we have been arguing this entire time 🤦‍♂️. Nowhere does it state that they are focused on a shared universe either. And DC plans on making films that have jack all to do with the DCEU, in addition to all of their "continuations" of DCEU films being completely standalone moving forward (none of which have been confirmed to be directly tied to the DCEU except Flashpoint and Aquaman 2). WB has made it more than clear that they are focusing more on individual franchises moving forward.

Also, it's funny how all of your sources fail to address the main issue at hand. Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman 1984 began development back in 2017 (when a shared universe was planned and before Suicide Squad 2 was scrapped in favour of The Suicide Squad). This is why we are primarily discussing post-Wonder Woman 1984 films, which you have been repeatedly reminded of. Not only do none of these producers have anything to do with The Suicide Squad, but they also admitted to a complete lack of interaction with James Gunn and the filmmakers of that film. As per usual, your sources indicate the exact opposite of the point that you are trying to make. DarkKnight2149 02:06, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Aquaman: King of Atlantis TV Show

Should we add the newly announced "Aquaman: King of Atlantis" animated show? Because it seems like it's part of the DCEU, considering it's synopsis says that it takes place during Arthur's first days as King, and it's being produced by James Wan, the director of Aquaman (2018) Skyshot16 (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

This animated show, is not a part of the DCEU. Wan serving as a director, is likely due to the critical/financial reception to the Aquaman film. Nothing more. For example, he also produced Swamp Thing but that show as not related to the film universe.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:57, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

I am unsure where you are arriving at the conclusion that the film is not part of the DCEU. Please provide a reference explicitly' noting that the series is not. The opinion of editors regarding events is unusable as sources and therefore is unusable in discussions here, as it presumes facts that can not be substantiated. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:56, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Sebastian: What I meant by my statement is that the series has not been called/referred to in any source as DCEU.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 17:36, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

That is the way to express that, DisneyMetalhead, not as part of a deductive reasoning. :) - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:10, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

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