Talk:Soviet partisans - Misplaced Pages

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Biased content

This article suffers from some challenges. I may be wrong, though it's quite possible that this article has been infiltrated by ethno-nationalist schools of thought, particularly from Poland and Finland, seeking to portray the Soviet partisans as bad guys. The sections on Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania are about as long, if not longer, than the sections covering the Republic of Russia and certain people who edited this article have sought reduce its scope to a rap sheet of alleged crimes committed by partisans. The article gives the impression that the Soviet partisan movement was as prevalent in Poland and Finland as in Russia. Leonid Grenkevich on p.234 of his book summarizes: "...partisan fighting affected many regions but was particularly prevalent in German occupied Belorussia, the Leningrad, Kalinin, Smolensk and Orel Districts of the Russian Republic, and in the Ukraine. This partisan warfare on so vast a scale was unprecedented in Russian history." So, if the Soviet partisan movement was most prevalent in the Belarus, Ukraine, and the Leningrad, Kalinin, Smolensk and Orel provinces of Russia then I feel that the article should primarily concentrate on those regions. But this article concentrates extraordinarily heavily on Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania - is it because this article has been infiltrated by ethno-nationalist interests from and sympathetic to those countries? Soviet partisans also served in Yugoslavia, and even in Italy but curiously this article doesn't have devote a single word to that fact. The article is in need of fundamental revisionsLegitmateProfit (talk) 01:52, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

While some content may be missing, the bulk of revisions should focus on removing Soviet/Russian unreliable propaganda sources, and verifying the facts with independent Western scholarly work. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:19, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The article isn't protected -- if you feel some things are missing, then add them in. sam1370 (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

"Soviet-occupied Poland"

This section seeks to obfuscate the reader as to what Polish territory was/is. Of the Polish provinces transferred to the Soviet Union: Western Ukraine was estimated to have a population that was 65% Ukrainian, while Western Belarus was estimated to have a population that was 78% Belarusian - these were not even ethnically Polish territories, although they were a part of Poland from around 1920 until September 1939. Lvov was a part of Poland from 1918-1939 and since 1939 has been a part of Ukraine. I recommend that Ukraine and Belarus in this article be defined per their 1939-1940 borders rather than the borders preceding World War II.LegitmateProfit (talk) 02:08, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree - considering the area was annexed by the USSR in 1939 (and hence - not occupied), and was ceded by Poland to the USSR in the Polish–Soviet border agreement of August 1945 - calling this "Soviet-occupied Poland" is incorrect. Furthermore, outside of Polish ethnonationalist sources, there is very little use of this irredentist terminology (around the "Kresy" in general) - these areas were annexed by Poland for a very brief period between 1921-1939, and Poles were one of many ethnicities present (and not a majority). For the past 70+ years Vilnius, Novogrudok, Lviv, etc. are not referred to as Polish cities or territories.Icewhiz (talk) 08:32, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

The term Soviet occupied Poland is correct. Until Poland agreed to border changes, this remained occupied Polish terrtiory.Majority of the population were Polish citizens irregardless of their ethnic background.Also Soviet Propaganda is inconsistant, as actually Soviets returned part of this territory, surely we don't want to claim Bialystok or Przemysl is part of Belarus or Ukraine occupied by Poland today? To sum it up-the correct term is Soviet occupied Poland both legally and par neutral sources.I agree that past 1945 Soviet occupied Poland shouldn't refer to Vilnius or Lviv but to communist Poland in post 1945 borders--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

"considering the area was annexed by the USSR in 1939" - lol. Is that how it works? A country declares that a part of another country is its territory and that's it? Somehow I don't think so. Volunteer Marek 03:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

It depends - sometimes - as in the 1921 conquest by Poland or the 1939 Soviet conquest it is accepted, sometimes not. In this particular case - sources - e.g. Lebedeva, N. S. (2000). The deportation of the polish population to the USSR, 1939–41. Journal of Communist Studies and Transition Politics, 16(1-2), 28–45. doi:10.1080/13523270008415428 The deportation of the Polish population from the territories annexed in September 1939 by the Soviet Union was an integral part of Stalin's policy of destroying Poland's state system and sovietizing the western areas of the Belorussian and Ukrainian republics., or Marples, D. R. (1994). Kuropaty: The Investigation of a Stalinist Historical Controversy. Slavic Review, 53(02), 513–523. doi:10.2307/2501303 Mass executions were conducted until shortly after the German invasion of the Soviet Union, and Soviet policy in areas annexed from Poland was brutal, against the Poles initially but subsequently against western Ukrainians and western Belarusians. - support annexed.Icewhiz (talk) 07:36, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

You're trying to draw a false equivalence between 1921 and 1939. Sorry, that's a fringe POV view. In 1921, there was a treaty signed by two brand new states which didn't exist just a few years prior. In 1939 there was no treaty. I mean, there was the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement but I really hope you're not claiming that the legitimacy of Soviet "annexation" is demonstrated by the fact that the Nazis supported it. There was no treaty on the issue until Yalta and even that is somewhat arguable. And a couple cherry picked sources which happen to use the term in passing are not going to change that.Volunteer Marek 20:07, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands refers to it as an occupation.Volunteer Marek 20:13, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Jan Gross actually also calls it an occupation. As did British diplomats and governments at the time.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I am fine with annexed, but logically, something is usually occupied before being annexed. Perhaps the 'occupied then annexed' would be the best phrase? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

It was annexed almost immediately - I would go with "invaded then annexed". Icewhiz (talk) 12:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Fine, but do we have any source for when did USSR pass any laws on annexation? Even the Soviets had to put some legal front. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:54, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Why would we care? If I declare that I've "annexed" Canada so what? For it to be "annexed" it has to have at least some international recognition. Which means that even in a generous view of Soviet policy, these territories weren't "annexed" until Yalta.Volunteer Marek 20:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

See this for the Soviet legal process/claims - as the state of Poland was extinguished via debellatio, the Soviets were no longer a party to various treaties (such as Riga 1921). Then also claimed derelicto due to the Polish gvmt/military flight, a humanitarian intervention on their side in the Eastern portion of Poland, and finally by a plebiscite in Western Belarus and Western Ukraine expression the populations "voluntary choice". There are a number of different dates, but per the Soviet view the Polish state had ceased to exist (and thus, also Soviet obligations from Riga) when they invaded. Icewhiz (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

So... there was no such thing as "occupied Poland" during World War 2 at all? I mean, the Germans "annexed" various territories as well and/or designated them as new protectorates. Jinkins! And here I was always taught that there actually was such a thing as "occupied Poland" during World War 2. Might be some nationalist propaganda or something. No, the Nazis only "annexed" Poland. Seriously - who cares what bullshit excuses Stalin made for his occupation? Why should we give those any more credence then Hitler's excuses for the same? Volunteer Marek 20:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The German portion is a separate issue. As for the Soviet areas - because sources not affilated with the Polish POV generally use annexed for Western Belarus and Ukraine - e.g. Marples or Lebedeva journal articles quoted above. Why do they do so? Does not really matter - though they might be doing this since the annexation ended up being internationally recognized (such recognitions generally being retroactive) and the territories (mostly) belonging today to different countries.Icewhiz (talk) 01:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

"because sources not affilated (sic) with the Polish POV " - Nonsense. You just made that up. Neither Timothy Snyder nor Jan Gross are associated with "the Polish POV" whatever the fuck that's suppose to be. And both are way more relevant than whatever you managed to find by cherry picking through the internets.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:53, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Much of Gross's work is based on Polish archives. Snyder is commonly referred to as a "polophile" - .Icewhiz (talk) 03:05, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Who cares how he is "referred to"??? Is that in Misplaced Pages policy somewhere? "Oh we can't use an author in an article on Poland if he's had nice things to say about Poland, gee wiz". What kind of absurd logic is that? That's right up there with you trying to remove any Polish sources from articles on Polish history, or removing sources because of their religious affiliation. And of course Gross' work is based on freakin' POLISH ARCHIVES!!!! It's a book about freakin' POLISH HISTORY!!! What the hell is it suppose to be based on? Fijian archives? Maybe Moroccan? No, wait, I know, ancient hieroglyphs from Egypt! This is even more ridiculous than your statement about Snyder. Not to mention that one opinion piece that, once again, you cherry picked from your dredging of the internet, does NOT establish that something is "common".

Sigh. Here, here is another "Polish POV" (sic) . A whole freakin' book about "Soviet occupied Poland" right in the title. From authors you yourself love to cite. Or is this going to become another farce like with Polonsky - where he was a "reputable academic source" which you insisted we should use, until you found out that he didn't actually fit in with your POV, so you then proceeded to try and remove him from an article? Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:15, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Unilateral annexation does not automatically end occupation. Occupation ends then territorial change has been is recognized by international community, usually after relevant border treaty, which in this case was signed in 1945. For example Germany formally annexed Czech territory but that period is still referred as German occupation of Czechoslovakia.--Staberinde (talk) 17:05, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Extlinks

@K.e.coffman: - you removed a couple of items on "non RS" grounds from the external links - however you left the same source in as a citation throughout the article - http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/406/262choda.html (as well as https://www.iwp.edu/papers-studies/2006/05/01/the-myth-exposed/ which seems even more sketchy and unpublished - the book review at least was published). Was this your intention? Icewhiz (talk) 05:16, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Be wary of Soviet era sources

Compare this diff, with Soviet era sources on one side, and modern research on the other: . --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Your reflexive dismissal and prejudice against Russian sources is not something held by actual professional scholars that specialize on this topic, and Russian sources on warfare in Crimea in 1941-1945 are clearly credible and reliable. Nazi German sources such as the observations of Erich von Manstein are also reliable and just because a source is biased doesn't mean that's inherently not trustworthy. We have this from an article appearing in a scientific journal establishing the reliability of sources that you argue should not be used:

Taken from Feferman, Kiril. “The Food Factor as a Possible Catalyst for Holocaust-Related Decisions: The Crimea and the North Caucasus.” War in History, vol. 15, no. 1, 2008, pp. 72–91.

Footnote 36: "For the German view of warfare in the Crimea in 1941, see Klink, "Conduct of Operations"...For Soviet insight into warfare in the peninsula in 1941, see A.Basov, "Krym v Velikoi...1941-1945 (Moscow, 1987)"

Foonote 64: "On the partisan movement in Crimea during the Second World War, see I. Vergasov, "Krymskie Tetradi" (Moscow, 1971); I. Genov "Dnevnik Partizana" (Simferopol, 1963)

Your comment is about a book that's titled Crimea During World War II, a comprehensive account of a particular topic, one that has not been explored very much in English. Unless you can show something specifically refuting the reliability and accuracy of this particular source, it can and should be used for this article.

The version you submitted misleadingly portrays relations with Tatars as representativen of partisan relations with civilians when in fact Russians and Ukrainians formed the majority of the region's population.

You already argued above sans any logic or consistency that sources from Russia shouldn't be used in an article about Russian history, which is bizarre and prejudiced. You also selectively quoted and distorted Statiev's article, which states that "Among all regular and irregular forces that operated in the occupied territories, partisans were the least lethal actor as far as the civilians were concerned...Armia Krajowa also killed more civilians than the partisans did... Given the savagery of war on the Eastern Front, it is striking how few civilians suffered at partisans’ hands as compared to those exterminated by nationalists, let alone Nazi collaborators."AlexanderIvanenko (talk) 18:30, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

AlexanderIvanenko is very likely another sock by YMB29. Previous throwaway socks that edit-warred this article include LegitimateProft (talk · contribs), LegitimateProfit (talk · contribs) and LegitmateProfit (talk · contribs). Regrettably, filing a SPI for throwaway socks is useless. --Pudeo (talk) 20:26, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- FYI follow-up: AlexanderIvanenko blocked due to this SPI: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/LegitimateProfit (made a separate one because not known if YMB29 or Jacob Peters). --Pudeo (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

German casualties from Soviet partisans

Are there any estimates for this? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

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