User talk:Tabib - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tabib (talk | contribs) at 12:34, 29 January 2005 (→Turkmen VS Turkomen/Turkomans etc). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. Misplaced Pages:About, Misplaced Pages:Help desk, and Misplaced Pages:Village pump are also a place to go for answers to general questions. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~~~~.

Be Bold!

Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 15:35, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Azerbaijani/Azerbaijanian

Please see Talk:Azerbaijani language. I suspect that the rough consensus is to keep this page at "Azerbaijani" - if the group of people who maintain this page agree to move it, we will be happy to do so, of course. Noel (talk) 15:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PS: Misplaced Pages style is that people generally reply on the User_Talk: page of the person who wrote a message to them (that way, someone doesn't have to monitor a whole long list of User_Talk: pages - one for each person whom they are having a "conversation" with), so please leave any messages for me on my talk page (above); if you leave a message for me here I probably will not see it. Not everyone on Misplaced Pages uses this style (they would rather keep all the text of a thread in one place), I but I simply can't monitor all the User_talk: pages I leave messages on. Thanks!

World War I

I'm curious why you removed the links to Armenian Genocide from the World War I article. -- Planders 16:10, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Planders, Thanks for the question. The earlier version read as follows:

"April 24: The events commonly referred to as the Armenian Genocide begin in the Ottoman Empire".

My edition was as follows:

"April 24: Ottoman government starts deportation of Armenians accusing them in collaboration with the Allies."

The reason why I made this edition is first because, the earlier version was categorical, leaving no space for alternative opinions, especially given the fact that the "Armenian genocide" is a highly controversial issue, that involves more politics than real history. Second reason is because, I believe, WWI page should be more accurate and authoritative, and links to such controversial and disputed politicized articles should be avoided in order to refrain from nationalist propaganda. I think, the current version is more even-handed and leaves space for both points of view.

Turkmen VS Turkomen/Turkomans etc

I'm prepared to believe that the different "koyunlular" aren't "Turkmen", but just so you know, the word Turkoman when used as a search currently redirects Turkmen to the "Turkmen" disambiguation page. So it'd probably be handy if you know any more on the topic to create an article on the ethnic group. There's a bit of a start near the end of the Oghuz Turks article, but I don't know enough anthropology etc to make a serious attempt at it. BigHaz 02:11, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks BigHaz for this interesting comment.

First, I want to explain why I changed "Turkmen" to "Turkoman". It's noteworthy that in Turkic (by this I mean primarily Azeri, Turkish and Turkmen languages, which belong to Oghuz branch) there is no distinction between these two terms. Both are referred to as "Türkmen(ce)". And this reflects the fact, that historically these names, as well as the word "türk" (Turkish, Turkic) were historically used interchangeably, referring to wider Turkic tribes ancestors of present-day Turks in Turkey, Azeris and Turkmen. By compoarison, in ancient times, there was no distinction between Ukrainians, Belarussians and Russians, which were all Slavs.

My goal in changing "Turkmen" to "Turkoman" was to make a technical distinction between these two terms in order to be able to portray the history of Turkomans not merely as history of present-day Turkmen in Turkmenistan, but as part of a wider historical context involving present-day Turks in Turkey, Azeris in Azerbaijan, Iran and Iraq (btw, the latter are more widely referred to as Iraqi Turkomans).

After creation of Turkey and Turkmenistan, the names "Turk(ish)" and "Turkmen" were sort of "privatized" by these respective countries. While this development is natural, it has also created lots of confusion in history. Thus, for example, the White Sheep and Black Sheep Turkomans came from Central Asia in XI-XII cc. and certainly, they are kin to present-day Turkmen in Turkmenistan. But, by calling them "Turkmen" we confuse ourselves and do not understand that since the time these tribes left their homeland in Central Asia, they had a different historical route, apart from their Turkoman kins which stayed and became present day Turkmen. They established states in the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and Iran, their culture and language, even racial features was impacted by the local conditions. They played a decisive role in the formation of ethnic groups which today are called Azeris and Turks.

In short, I want to reiterate that by differentiating between "Turkoman" and "Turkmen" (as I previously noted, in Turkic there's no such distinction, only "türkmen, türkmenler in plural") by the term "Turkoman", I meant to portray a wider historical ethnic group of Turkic tribes, as opposed to "Turkmen", the term I prefer to use only for the present-day ethnic Turkmen living in Turkmenistan, northern Afghanistan, parts of northeastern Iran.

Sorry, if the reply seems too complicated, but so is the history as well. As to your suggestionm to create an article, I would be glad to do that, in fact I was planning to create a different article under name "Turkomans". Can you please help me to cancel redirect of "Turkoman" to "Turkmen" so that I could start working on the Turkoman page? Thanks, in advance and please, feel free to contact me on this or other questions should you have them. --Tabib 12:34, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)