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			==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics==
	As this page concerns INCIDENTS:
	Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header.
			]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
	Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header.
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	== Two editors, an IBAN, and a possible case of hounding/baiting ==
			Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
	At the advice of policy wonks {{U|Johnuniq}}, {{U|Bbb23}}, and {{U|DangerousPanda}} I am bringing this matter to ANI rather than to AN. The case, involving {{U|Skyring}} (goes by Pete) and {{U|HiLo48}}, is this.<p>On 4 November 2013 a lengthy ANI discussion and an interaction ban between the two. The particulars of that discussion are on the record: it was painful, and there was considerable doubt about Skyring's editing and ways of interacting. At any rate, the ban was logged. Since then each has complained to me about the other: I warned Skyring once and then blocked him briefly, a month later I think; recently I warned HiLo but stopped short of blocking him.<p>But now disruption has risen again, with a thread started by Pete on ]. HiLo argues, in a nutshell, that Pete has followed him there, and with some reason. Pete has only in the article, a revert of HiLo (from August 2013, before the IBAN), against , going back to 2010. The talk page is similar: 24 edits for Pete, going back to August 2013, and 375 by HiLo.<p>So, the question is, is the section ], started by Pete on 1 February, to be taken as indicative of him following (hounding) HiLo to one of the latter's favorite haunts, and thus perhaps of baiting him? It should be noted that the section discusses the whole soccer/football naming controversy, in which HiLo has been outspoken and on the record. In other words, one could expect that this important matter would attract HiLo's attention, and an IBAN preventing him from participating in that thread takes one of the longstanding voices in that debate out of the equation.<p>Let it be noted, but I need to wrap this up, that {{U|NE Ent}} left Pete a note on his talk page that supports the notion that this was inappropriate on Pete's part (correct me if I'm wrong, Ent), and that Johnuniq and DangerousPanda subscribe to that idea too. Thank you, ] (]) 23:52, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Thanks for the effort, Drmies. Just let me clarify there. My interest is not in the sport, so I'm not active on the article page. Rather, the question of the terminology is what arouses my interest, and that is confined to the talk page. In fact it is pretty much what the ] is all about, and I urge editors to take a look for themselves. It is painful.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
	:My contributions have been ongoing for some time. August 2013, going by the page history and . There may be earlier edits, but that one predates the IBAN. Further discussion on the RFC for name change, where I supported the current title. After doing a little research I find that "Soccer" is now deprecated amongst media and sports organisations, accordingly I now support a name change to reflect the changed reality.
			WP:NPA
	:This seems to be a majority position amongst editors, going by the !vote There are some points raised in the discussion immediately preceding, where my position is made quite clear: we should set aside our own personal opinions and look for good sources. My feeling is that whatever I might have called the game fifty years ago as a schoolchild in Victoria, the name has changed, especially over the last few years,
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
	:Do we have any guidance on where to proceed? My understanding is that both participants to an IBAN are able to participate in !votes for RfCs and so on so long as there is no interaction. I think every editor involved is entitled to a voice in that sort of discussion, and if any editor were to lodge a !vote in the ongoing "Gauge Support" discussion I would not seek to have it removed on a spurious technicality. It is a matter of fairness and commonsense. --] (]) 00:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			Profanity
	Pete's response here is effectively the same as it was on Drmies's talk page. I find it disingenuous at best. I think there are several of us in agreement that what Pete did was "wrong". The harder question is what's the remedy, and we may find significantly more disagreement there. Not being a policy wonk (no matter what Drmies says), my view is that Pete violated the ], either its spirit or by implication. If HiLo had responded directly, he would obviously have violated the ban, and I think Pete was goading him to do so. (BTW, I have no history with either editor that I'm aware of, or at least remember.) It reminds me of the ''I Love Lucy'' episode (everything does) in which Lucy bets with Ricky that he can't lose his temper for 24 hours and he bets that she can't not buy a new hat for the same period of time. During the next 24 hours, Lucy keeps doing things to try to make Ricky lose his temper. He comes close but always pulls back. I heartily recommend this episode for anyone interested in implied IBAN violations.--] (]) 00:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:{{ec|2}}Skyring's contributions on Soccer in Australia are within the allowed activities of ]. However, given their lack of prior interest in the subject, as documented by Drmies with the cool tool, the strong opinions at the ] which lead to ban, the vast size of both Australia and English Misplaced Pages, in which to engage in questions of terminology, the number of editors already having a robust discussion of the issue, I would say it's of minimal benefit to the Encyclopedia to focus their efforts there; given the potential for conflict between two editors who just don't get along I requested they strike their comments and disengage. <small>]</small> 00:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	*If anyone wants to take the trouble, they might review ] and see if there is a net benefit from Skyring/Pete's presence—I suspect the answer is ''no''. At a minimum, I support an indefinite topic ban for Skyring regarding soccer/football and its naming controversy. At Drmies' ], I noted (at 1 January 2014) that, checking the entire history of ] showed that:
	**HiLo48 made a total of 303 edits starting in October 2009, with 111 in December 2013 and none in 2014. In the December edits, 19 mention "soccer" in the edit summary.
	**Skyring made 3 edits in January 2014, 3 edits in December 2013, and 5 edits in August 2013, and no other.
	:I have seen enough of Skyring's style to know that his recent interest in the topic of soccer is almost certainly gaming the system to irritate his opponent—HiLo48 always participates in a new outbreak of the soccer/football battle, but he cannot participate at the moment because the section was started by Skyring. Of course no one can ''prove'' that this is an intentional tactic by Skyring, however proof is not needed since all the community wants is drama reduction and productive editing, and anything that ''might'' be baiting should be stopped. The great soccer/football debate will continue without Skyring's participation. Skyring will use any opportunity as seen at ] where Skyring just happened to have noticed that his opponent has commented at ] (which has a ''total'' of five edits in its history)—in the comment, HiLo48 has technically breached the IBAN, but it is such a harmless explanation that only someone going for blood would seize on it. ] (]) 00:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Drmies is well aware that we monitor each other's contributions. As for "going for blood", in the section linked, I requested a gentle reminder and that no further action be taken. I don't want to see anyone in trouble, but I '''do''' want the personal attacks to cease. That's why I supported the IBAN in the first place. --] (]) 00:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::''checking the entire history of ] showed that: HiLo48 made a total of 303 edits starting in October 2009, with 111 in December 2013 and none in 2014.''
	::Well, It's interesting that you should bring those contributions up. For starters, you say "none in 2014", but I count 76. Perhaps I could ask an independent editor to check my figures?
	::Looking at some of those contributions makes for interesting reading, coming from someone who claims they don't make personal attacks. --] (]) 20:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::HiLo pointed out, on his talk page and here, that no evidence is given of personal attacks, and I think it's important to point out, for the new readers, that I see no personal attacks by HiLo on Pete since the IBAN. (That's the issue--not whether HiLo has been rude or whatever to other editors--that's unproven, you cannot make that case under your IBAN, and it's not of interest to this discussion--note after edit conflict and Pete's contribution.) It's not even really relevant here, nor is it relevant how exciting or important discussions on the Australian soccer nomenclature are. Indeed, I'm beginning to think that the lengthy commentary by Pete on this matter is intended to draw attention away from the actual matter at heart: whether we should see their interest in the ] article and its talk page as a kind of hounding/baiting. ] (]) 20:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::I've noticed a number of personal attacks directed against me since the IBAN began. Specifically on HiLo's talk page. I've drawn your attention to them, Drmies, asking that they stop, but you are a busy person, and doubtless have other matters on your mind.
	::::I've commented on the baiting already. Where are the diffs? --] (]) 21:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::The diffs are given: edit counts by both of you in the article and the talk page, and your starting that section on the naming issue: first sentence, fourth paragraph of my initial posting. You have left a "What's going on" section on my talk page, the answer to which (if there was a question) is this very ANI report. You also posted "Sorry to bother you again", where you pointed to , and I responded, as did Johnuniq in this very thread. You pointed at a possible IBAN violation (archived, I believe, on my talk page) and I warned HiLo. I do have other matters on my mind, one of which is that I'm getting kind of tired of this thread and responding to your lawyerish comments. And no, I do not believe you have responded in any kind of substance to the baiting issue. ] (]) 23:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::My point was made There is nothing in an IBAN preventing either of us from participating in discussion. The key point is to avoid the other party. Editors do not "own" articles or talk pages, regardless of how many edits they make or who was first. In this case, both of us were active on the relevant talk page before the ban was applied and we have since confined ourselves to different threads. Call it lawyerish, if you must, but that's just a commonsense reading of the relevant ]: "Although the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other, they are not allowed to interact with each other in any way."
	::::::So where, precisely, is the hounding? Can you - or anyone else - provide a diff that is one party baiting the other?
	::::::If it is your contention that HiLo48 "owns" the article and its talk page, then I find that very problematic indeed. So do you, --] (]) 00:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::I do not contend that, but I am becoming more and more convinced that you posted on that talk page, seeking to overturn consensus on a topic where you had earlier sought confrontation with HiLo (your one edit to the article), in order to pull them out and violate the IBAN--yes, to bait them. And you're doing the same thing here: you know that HiLo is itching to rebut, and it's a good thing they're keeping their cool. You know, in this battle between the two of you I used to think there was equal blame, more or less. I don't think that anymore. ] (]) 00:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::Looking at that talk page, it is quite clear that there is no consensus to be overturned - it is one long argument. My posts there are aimed at finding and presenting reliable sources showing that the name of the sport has changed. As I noted earlier - did you even read it? - there is no point to baiting the other party in an IBAN and then running to AN/I claiming a breach. That sort of tactic is easily seen through and would boomerang if either party tried it. You raised this AN/I discussion, requiring me to come here to rebut the charges made against me. I have stated my case, I have been honest, I have pointed to the relevant policy and asked for evidence. And nothing concrete is forthcoming but irritation. Which I share.
	::::::::This comes down to a simple point. If the other party "owns" the article and talk page, then say so, and I will refrain from posting there any more. If not, then I am perfectly within my rights to take part in discussion on a topic which attracts me through my interest in language and popular culture. The mere act of posting is not baiting. I didn't mention the other party in any way, I didn't respond, I didn't interact at all. Go me. Go both of us.
	::::::::And finally, yes, I very much prefer that all parties keep their cool. That's what this whole thing is about. That's exactly what I want. HiLo48 deserves praise for keeping calm and biting his tongue. May he ever continue to do so, and may we all of us continue to be civil in our dealings with one another. Thank you. --] (]) 01:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	*Am I allowed to comment here? ] (]) 07:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	**I think ] says yes, and Pete already has. ] (]) 18:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	***Thanks. What personal attacks? That unsupported negative statement is the typical sort of nonsense that gets posted at AN/I without consequence. I have not communicated with Pete/Skyring since the ban began. I have made absolutely minimal comments about him. That disruptive statement alone is so unhelpful it should demand a serious consequence, quite apart from the other problem being discussed here. ] (]) 20:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
	*I may be someone who is regularly opposed to HiLo's way of dealing with things, but even when I'm on the opposite side, this is one of the clearest gaming of the system attempts that I've seen in a while - as Johnuniq notes, it is hard to prove that this is intentional, but it is still obviously intentional. Skyring has contributed a miniscule amount to any association football/soccer article, whereas HiLo is far more regularly involved. Skyring being topic banned from anything to do with association football/soccer would be entirely appropriate. And yes, HiLo, you can comment here, since this is an ANI discussion about the interaction ban. ] ] 11:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
	*HiLo48 has a perfect right to present his side of the story in his own words and he shall have no interference from me.<p>To those whose mind is made up, there is no point arguing. Think what you will. For my part, I am perfectly within my rights under the limitations of an IBAN to participate in Misplaced Pages discussions on those topics which interest me, and while football does not, popular culture and language has been my fascination from university, and the question of what a particular sport might be called is an important and intriguing one. The name is changing within Australia and it affects not just the one article, but many others. If an Australian player moves to the European leagues during the offseason, does he play Soccer or Association Football and how do we describe him?<p>It is not in my heart to goad or bait HiLo48 into breaking the ban and then pounce around and crow over it. Anyone who knows how Misplaced Pages works also knows exactly how that would play out here. It would be a pointless exercise and it would boomerang badly. If it happens, then it can be dealt with, but it also seems pointless to discuss something that hasn't happened, especially when other editors are projecting thoughts and motivations into my mind that do not, in fact, exist. "It is hard to prove that this is intentional, but it is still obviously intentional," one editor claims. Well, it's not. I know what's in my mind, and it is not that.<p>I have looked carefully at the restrictions and exemptions of an IBAN and I see nothing there to prevent me from continuing my ongoing participation. Looking at the discussion page and for that topic, likewise. In fact it seems to me to be a good deal less restrictive than recent interpretations and if it is going to be enforced in a different manner to the words of the policy, then perhaps it is time to reword the policy.<p>If anyone thinks that there is any baiting or goading going on, then let them put forward diffs. I'm prepared to stand by my statements. All I ask is that policy be followed, evidence presented, and that fairness prevail. For all parties. --] (]) 17:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:Perfect! You've got a convincing air of innocence gently blended with the wikilawyer's ''prove it''! However, this is Misplaced Pages where the purpose is to build an encyclopedia, not to endlessly debate whether something looking like a turd really is a turd. Is there any reason to imagine that Skyring/Pete's continuing presence in soccer/football issues is required for the encyclopedia? ] (]) 22:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	*::From my perspective the answer is no. I am quite familiar with the events leading up to this case. In the past I have been extremely critical of HiLo48, but more recently I have come around to seeing matters differently. To be brief, in my view if Skyring/Pete gets off with a soccer/football topic ban he will be getting off easy. ]]] 06:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	::* I'm reminded of a little kid who stands just 3 inches beyond where a dog's chain end, and, when reminded they were told not to tease the animal, says ''but you said I could play anywhere in the yard if I stand outside the dog's circle!'' Earlier in the thread Skyring claims HiLo is monitoring their edits (they know that how?) and they "want the attacks to stop." These are violations of the ban. But the important thing isn't the letter of "the law" (]), but the spirit, and Skyring is clearly violating it. My first thought ''was'' along the lines of topic ban from Soccer in Australia, but I'm concerned that's just kicking the can down the road. Perhaps the interaction ban could be amended to include ''That means stay the heck away from HiLo48, cause the next time it looks like you're edging anywhere close to him we'll skip the three days of discussion and just jump to the point where we block you, for however long it takes you to get the hint.'' <small>]</small> 10:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
	:::::I'll make a comment about process here. I'm looking at several editors using language related to their assessment of my motives and thoughts. The comment above is a good one "I'm reminded of a little kid..." Well, I'm not a little kid, I'm well into my fifties, and I'm not as naiïve as those assessments assume. Baiting the other party in an iban and then running to an admin or ANI with a complaint is not a winning strategy on Misplaced Pages, as I trust everyone here is aware. I certainly am, because I've now mentioned it three times.
			Unicivil
	:::::I'm seeing guesses from editors here about my motivations and intentions that project "that little kid" onto me, and that's quite revealing. It's quite incorrect, because it's not in my mind to annoy or harass the other party, and I've asked for diffs to show the baiting. which have not been provided. Standing just beyond the angry dog's reach is a lovely image, but not really applicable here, where both parties are editors of many years experience and presumably able to control themselves. HiLo48, if I may mention him one more time in this thread, is not a barking dog and has in fact demonstrated considerable pride in his ability to NOT react. Those of you with experience will know that this is quite something, but some editors are treating him as if he were on the verge of snapping, and me as if I know this and am goading him that last little bit.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
	:::::Neither of us are barking dogs or mischievous children. We are people of some maturity and we have both demonstrated restraint over the course of this iban. Sure, there have been some minor breaches, but at least on my part all I've ever sought has been a reminder of the rules rather than any sort of penalty.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
	:::::So, instead of evidence - a deliberately provocative post, weasel wording, actual baiting or trolling or goading - I'm seeing statements based on emotional projection, revolving around little kids and barking dogs. These are actually quite insulting to both parties, and when I compare these imagined motivations against what is in my own mind, they are quite wrong.
			Contact on user page attempted
	:::::Now, having said that, I can see where this is heading, and I'm obviously not going to change hearts and minds here and now, but I will flag my intention to appeal to whatever step is next. Presumably the Arbcom, and in that forum, we will be dealing more with procedure and evidence and less with emotion and gut feelings. There are some questions in my mind about the limits of interaction bans and "spirit of the law", mentioned above. That is intended - and worded - not to be pettifoggingly precise, but to minimise disruption, and I think it has worked very well in this case. Apart from presuming upon the good nature of Drmies with questions and minor complaints, and this current little dramafest, which in my opinion is quite unneccessary and irritating to all concerned apart from those habitual attendees here who cheerfully chuck in their five cents worth of psychiatric assessment. --] (]) 18:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::Some of my comments have been a bit over-excited, but the essential problem remains—there is an IBAN between two users, and one of those users is widely known as supporting a particular outcome in the soccer/football debate, and has over 300 edits to the talk page, starting in October 2009. By comparison, the other editor has had a very minor involvement, but would now like to take a role that happens to oppose the first user. The community is mostly concerned with minimizing disruption and maximizing benefit to the encyclopedia, and following that principle suggests that the best outcome would result from the second user avoiding soccer/football. ] (]) 01:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::So. Where's the disruption that you want to minimise? Not trying to be snarky here, just curious if you can point to any at all. Apart from this unnecessary thread, of course. --] (]) 03:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
	::::::::I have been following this thread and your previous interactions with HiLo48 for some time but have not felt the need to get involved. However, this post just leaves me speechless. In the vernacular the only appropriate response is to say "don't come the raw prawn here, mate". You are well aware of what you have been trying to do and have been called out for it. Pretending to be all innocent is just not going to cut it. I would suggest that admitting your error and giving sincere undertakings not to repeat them is your only hope of avoiding an enforced Wiki-holiday. - ] ] 04:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
	:::::::::I am certainly well aware of what I am trying to do. I know what is in my own heart. And you are wrong. Simple as that. But I ask again. Where is the disruption? In your imagination, it seems. Can you point to anything that has actually occurred? Something outside whatever fantasy you are imagining? Seriously now. Where is the evidence?
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::That's why I mentioned process above. Misplaced Pages is based on reliable sources and evidence. We check our facts. We don't speculate, imagine, fantasise and pretend. Apart from AN/I, it seems. --] (]) 05:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Topic ban proposal===
			::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Would people please specify a preferred outcome because the advice offered above has not been accepted, and this section is getting too long. A couple of us have hinted that more than a topic ban may be helpful—it might be more realistic to apply an indefinite block until it is clear there will be no further exploratory incursions. However let's just examine whether Skyring/Pete should be indefinitely topic banned from all soccer/football topics and discussions, broadly construed. Is the following correct (not including the views of the two editors concerned):
			:@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
	*No recommendation yet: ], ].
			:Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ]&thinsp;] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Support topic ban: ], ], ], ].
			::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input.
	Please make any corrections or updates required, and I hope others join the discussion. ] (]) 11:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:* Support ban and/or block. <small>]</small> 12:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)		::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:* Support topic ban for Skyring from soccer/football, because I find NE Ent's analogy cogent: "''but you said I could play anywhere in the yard if I stand outside the dog's circle!''" The next time Skyring applies his wikilawyering and timewasting skills to this IBAN ("exploratory incursions"), I support a swift indef block. ] &#124; ] 12:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC).
			{{OD}}
			{{collapse top|title=Minor discussion on use of ChatGPT in Lardle's user page}}
			@]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Given that the discussion has progressed to this point, I boldly went and created a section for it. So to lay it out:-
			::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	#'''Skyring, who signs as Pete, is hereby indefinitely topic banned from all articles relating to soccer/football. Attempts to skirt/wikilawyer around the topic ban will be met with escalating blocks.'''
			:::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	#'''Any future attempts to skirt the interaction ban, as viewed by the community, will be met with an indefinite block. The usual exceptions to IBAN's still apply but attempts to game those exceptions will also be met with an indefinite block'''
			::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Does that about sum it up? ] (]) 13:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*It's strict but I think it's the only solution. ] (]) 17:20, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*As a general comment, it seems like the general understanding of IBan (outside of this case) is that 1) both editors can edit the same article, but not interact with each other. and 2) commenting in a thread started by the other is interaction 2a) commenting in any thread the other has commented in is interaction and 3) that includes RFCs or other "official" discussions. Would not just establishing that commenting on official proposals, without mentioning the other person or their argument is acceptable resolve the issue, and let HiLo comment on the RFC? Other ways of interpreting IBan seem to be subject to easy gaming - if you can predict which articles/discussions someone will like get their first and its locked out. Yes we can handle that with topic/community bans, but why not just drop the king of the hill game and make IBan deal with actual interaction? I suppose that does makes it a bit more subjective to enforce... ] (]) 17:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::::::{{ping|BarntToust}} I would appreciate if you did not derail noticeboard threads by rudely browbeating participants about seemingly irrelevant(?) issues. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 01:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::IBAN's are notoriously difficult to deal with. Just last week there was a rather lengthy discussion about an IBAN that is in force and whether there has been violations and/or gaming of it (not going to name parties, but regulars at ANI will know who I mean). I added in the condition "as viewed by the community" for obvious reasons. What one editor sees as an IBAN violation may/will not appear so to the violator. This condition solidifies the burden on a community consensus that a violation has occurred. Against a community consensus that the IBAN has been violated there is no wriggle room to wikilawyer around. ] (]) 17:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			::::::::I think I'm gone from this board because of other work I'm focusing on regarding NIИ's ] and other stuff. Ad Hominems are what I did, and pointing out questionable behaviour (IE unexplained, self-contradictory AI slop text) from the user page of the currently 1 week-blocked Lardle who ] actually seemed pretty helpful, as literally everyone else in this trainwreck of a thread brought up unrelated stuff (Lardle's unrelated COVID conspiracy mongering) instead of discussing Hob. I do admit I went on tangents through this already derailed mega thread, but I'm among others not much worse for the derailing. I mean, how many ANI reports start with a fellow reporting "This guy is using the word 'bullshit' on talk pages" and end with that fellow getting a broadly construed TBAN that they violate mere moments after implementation? Yeah, I'm again, I'm gone to work on other stuff. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Support topic ban and warning ''' - lets do this quickly and move on. Distasteful, but probably for the best. ]]] 01:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			:That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' For clarity, I had better sign here although I have supported above. ] (]) 02:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Skyring's edits and indicate that they just don't get it. Consequently I '''support a block''', but if consensus is for a topic ban and warning I will support that, but I rather think that if we choose to go down that route we'll just be back here once again pretty soon, since Skyring has shown that they are either unable or unwilling to understand that it is not just the letter of the law that matters but its spirit. - ] ] 09:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Emphasize support of topic ban''' - Best case scenario: Skyring backs off HiLo altogether, HiLo is therefore able to relax a bit in discussions, Misplaced Pages gets improved. Worst case scenario: Skyring violates the topic ban or continues to try and skirt around the interaction ban, and gets an indefinite block. Either way, the disruption should pretty much end here. ] ] 19:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:* What disruption are you talking about? Apart from this ANI thread, which I didn't start. Seriously now, if nobody can provide diffs or evidence of disruption, then this thing is going to be appealed to a more reliable forum. I posted on a talk page, continuing my pre-iban participation, and I did it without the intention of baiting or trolling. Feel free to compare the tone of discussion in ] with others on the page. Be fair, please. --] (]) 20:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			*The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] &#124; ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			:I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: *'''comment''' I saw this coming from a mile away and the position that this would put User:Skyring|Pete in. However, I don't see any interruption of an IBAN going on here, neither ] or the parties involved parties are interacting with each other directly. Where is the IBAN actually being broken here? What is actually going on? I don't see a "quick and dirty" fix as resolving anything in this case. No disruptive behaviour has resulted from either of the two open discussions and they have their own direction flow, in fact they are two completely different discussions. I wont bring the other user into this discussion because it's not about them, I just don't see what Pete is doing wrong here by having an open discussion thread. If I've missed anything in particular in the difs for this please enlighten me where this is the case. --] (]) 01:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*If you're not seeing the violation, then either you've not read the thread carefully enough, or you're just not looking properly. HiLo is well known to be a regular contributor to Australian soccer/association football articles, whereas Skyring is well known not to be. Beyond that, HiLo is actively discussing (in multiple places) the possibility of various name changes involving the articles. However, the real nail in the coffin is that HiLo supports things remaining at (not that I'm saying he actively wants to move it, just that he is questioning various changes of the term); Skyring is very deliberately setting himself up in entirely the opposite position, by opening a thread that suggests that a move to "association football" is enacted, knowing full well that HiLo is prevented from posting there by the terms of the IBAN. This is a blatant violation of the spirit of the ban, as well as a deliberate attempt at gaming the system. Skyring knows it full well, and you can see the smug undertones in some of his posts as well. ] ] 07:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::"Smug undertones"? I have to laugh at some of the things being said here. Dead wrong, Lukeno94. Rattling chains is not what I'm about. That's mean, juvenile fun, and it's rather disappointing that so many are projecting their fantasy onto me. "Smug"? Geez. Spit on me a bit more, will ya? --] (]) 17:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Meh''' - as an ] editor I've had positive interactions with both (my little exchange with Pete during the original IBAN discussion probably not being among them). Like then, Pete seems determined to dig himself into a hole and not see what everyone else is seeing. If it was unintentional, starting a football discussion while under an IBAN with one of Australian-football-editing's most vocal participants is pretty dumb. If intentional, it's deliberately baiting and antagonistic, but I don't think that's what Pete is about. The simple course of action would be for Pete to accept it was pretty dumb and commit to editing in completely different areas. If he can do that then further action shouldn't be necessary. I'd only support action if he can't or won't - I don't think further action is justified at this stage. ]] 20:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Yes, I read the original IBAN thread when I inadvertently breached it myself... I could not have expected to have been across that one, particularly when I spent a long spell out with not editing here. No offense to Pete, he seems pretty reasonable. HiLo on the other hand seems less so reasonable... BUT, Pete... SERIOUSLY man... Sometimes it seems you like to dig yourself a good hole. I have my issues with HiLo... But I also know exactly when to shut up and do what the administrators tell me to do.
			*'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Inadvertent or not I see '''both''' sides of this issue:
			*:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|Extended discussion}}
			{{od}}
			Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: 1) HiLo has A LOT of cheerleaders for the position he takes up and I could see them deliberately bringing issues to AN/I just to rattle those that oppose his position
			::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience.
			:::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: on the other hand
			:Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: 2) Either deliberately, or not so opening up a discussion topic in an area where HiLo likes to patrol was more than a little silly... I saw what was going on as soon as the thread was opened. I just have a little faith that Pete didn't do this deliberately. Just my two cents worth...
			:*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: I don't think Pete deserves a complete topic ban, but I think he should be more wary of inadvertently opening up discussions that he knows full well HiLo cannot contribute to. I'd also loath to see the position put forward here either by interpretation or otherwise that administrators are giving sway to one side of this polemic debate or another... There is already enough accusations flying around and we should all have a little more respect, particularly for admins, which HiLo in particular has at times been in '''open descent''' of. I think the current IBAN is enough with a warning that doing something like this again WILL result in a topic ban. I would not like to see a potential voice, one way or another on this matter removed completely and could see how topic banning Pete could be interpreted as giving sway to one particular side of the Soccer in Australia debate. --] (]) 21:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ]&thinsp;] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ]&thinsp;] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ]&thinsp;] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I'm grumpy because I don't like being railroaded, but I fully appreciate about digging myself an ever-deeper hole. Story of my life. Stalwart, you've come closer than anyone else here to saying something that resonates with me. Thanks. --] (]) 21:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: In your defence Pete, the last time I was dragged up here before AN/I similiar attempts at character assassination were tried on me with incorrect difs which resulted in HiLo48 running away from a boomerang. You should know as well as I do the types of things that go on with HiLo48 and his supporters and you should by now know better to walk into a situation where you can have your pants pulled down like this... Unfortunately, it's just a waiting game to see how the administrators here interpret this one. --] (]) 21:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ]&thinsp;] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I am in the diffs.
			:::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This is a deeply silly comment. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 01:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}}
			:::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ]&thinsp;] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way...
			:::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed.
			:::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted.
			:::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds.
			:::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history.
			:::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ]&thinsp;] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ]&thinsp;] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits.
			::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ]&thinsp;] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ]&thinsp;] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ]&thinsp;] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ]&thinsp;] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			{{reflist}}
	::::If I may offer some advice in my turn? I'd appreciate it if we kept the other party out of this as much as possible. It's my actions under the telescope here, not anyone else's unless they contributed in some way. --] (]) 21:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			===Send to AE?===
	:::::A good idea, both in the context of this discussion and in your wider approach to the IBAN and editing in general (which, for each of you, really shouldn't be defined by the IBAN anyway). HiLo has a long history in particular topic areas and you have a long history in ''other'' topic areas. The areas where you naturally overlap seem few and far between. I'm all for expanding your horizons but as long as you can each expand them to areas the other has little interest in, you should be fine. In this instance you stumbled across one, probably should have left it alone but didn't. As I said before: meh. Dumb, not intentionally disruptive. ]] 05:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::: Yes, dumb but not intentional, or at least I don't believe so, I believe Pete seems more reasonable than to throw stones at barking dogs --] (]) 09:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)		Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
	*'''Oppose''', as I think the proposal I'm offering below (in the same edit as this comment) probably works better. - ] &#124; <sup>] and ]</sup> 02:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			:That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::FYI ] is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
			:::::It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - ] (]) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Alternative Proposal===
			::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy.
	I propose that the existing IBAN is modified as follows: ''The interaction ban currently in force between {{user|Skyring}} and {{user|HiLo48}} is modified to exclude all articles related to ], broadly construed. This exception also applies to all deletion-discussions related to such articles.'' This modification would allow Skyring to edit articles that HiLo48 have been editing without hindering HiLo48's ability to edit those articles. It's the least restrictive modification I can think of. (P.S. My proposal basically allows Skyring and HiLo48 to interact on articles related to ] (= soccer) as if the IBAN wasn't in place, and exceptions would apply to XfD/DR as those are not exactly on article/article talk namespace.) - ] &#124; <sup>] and ]</sup> 02:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''No''' An IBAN was enacted to avoid pointless drama. What is the point of bending over backwards to provide a mechanism so the two users can snarl at each other in a topic where the issue will not be resolved for a another few years (<small>I gather that "soccer" is slowly being replaced with "football" in some places in Australia, or some would like that—don't know which, and when/if that happens, the articles here will be renamed</small>). A comment above includes "HiLo48 made a total of 303 edits starting in October 2009...", and that shows that Skyring's interest is recent and minor, and need not be accommodated. ] (]) 03:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:*I proposed this because we cannot assume (and probably ''shouldn't'' assume) that Skyring is doing it on purpose, on the basis of ]. Besides, if we take Skyring's initial response to the original request, we can safely assume that it probably would not re-introduce mess, if Skyring indeed only has passing interest. I do not see the harm of doing this. (Besides, remember, just as ], so can people's interests. - ] &#124; <sup>] and ]</sup> 05:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			:<s>I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ].</s> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) -- Open thread below. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Categorically no''' - ], and given that Skyring and HiLo have plenty of history, assuming good faith is categorically not appropriate here, in the face of other evidence. This alteration is essentially saying to Skyring that he can start doing this at every article HiLo has ever edited, and can essentially render the IBAN moot. ] ] 09:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			===Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers===
	===Resolution please?===
			{{atop|status=Topic ban imposed|1=By the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, {{u|Lardlegwarmers}} is ] from the topic of COVID-19, broadly construed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	It's almost a week. Things have not improved. Can I ask for some sort of resolution please? ] (]) 21:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|Lardlegwarmers}}
	:My summation of the restrictions gathered a small amount of traction but I don't think any admin could really call it a clear consensus. I'd say that the only clear point is that there will be a final warning with regards to the IBAN. As for the topic ban proposal, I think there needs to be a much clearer consensus for support/opposing it. ] (]) 14:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I think any closing admin might be swayed by that "Things have not improved" comment. But, apart from this thread, I've done little else on Misplaced Pages this past week. My attention has been on family matters. So what sort of improvement is the community looking for here? --] (]) 16:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a ] to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the ] remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a ] in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities.
	::: I think at this stage any topic ban could be seen as a clear breach in policy that AN/I is not used to resolve outcomes on RFCs. I also believe that consensus can and does change often enough, and furthermore based on previous discussions here a lot of the discussion going on at ] has not crossed any particular line '''YET'''. Pete's infractions here by the standards of what has led up to this are relatively trivial in nature and I don't believe they were deliberate. A final warning not to do anything that could be construed as requiring interaction with HiLo48 is appropriate here... That means staying away from talk page discussions where HiLo48 is known to be present except for the purposes of voting. Pete should be allowed at this stage to edit any page that he wishes, so long as that doesn't at the same time involve interaction with HiLo48.
			] (]) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: The long and the short of it is that Pete should stay as far away from HiLo48 as is practical, and vice versa... The simple message for most of us including Pete is that nothing good will come of these interactions which is why I have also self imposed my own restrictions here. It's clear we all feel strongly one way or another about all of this, but the long and the short of it is that nobody on that page or elsewhere in these or similar discussions is going to come to a common accord through regular discussions when they are dealing with views that are of two polar extremes. --] (]) 23:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - Seems unnecessary and retaliatory. I say that even considering Hob Gadling a friend of mine. ] (]) 19:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' The user is basically a ] who looking at their editing history, their basically sole purpose to edit Misplaced Pages is to aggressively POVPUSH about lableak on talkpages, a topic they can't even edit the main page of because they don't have ECP. They're not the only offender, but they are major one. Their contributions are only raising the heat and frankly do not improve the topic area. ] (]) 19:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This is not a SPA. I’ve been editing on Misplaced Pages for a month or two, focusing some of my attention on the lab leak hypothesis because the article itself would benefit from a more balanced presentation of the topic, especially the broader social and political implications of the theory, based on reliable sources. For example, the article's suggestion that the lab leak hypothesis foments racism is simply not verified. Politicians and extremists have taken advantage of the hypothesis for their own reasons, but it's otherwise a viable scientific hypothesis. (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) I've been on the talk page helping to sift through a lot of the original research and the sources (a lot of them) that don't actually say what people are alleging they say. Also, I have been trying to find some kind of consensus for filling in the conspicuous gaps where there ought to be information about notable non-scientific events like coverage of the notable U.S. Congress committee that focused on the lab leak idea and made major headlines in the media--and it's completely omitted from the article. I've worked to clean up the articles where they use journalistic sources to verify biomedical information. And I'm dealing with helping to sort out this chronic name-calling where there should be civil dialogue. In a separate topic, I've been working on fixing an obvious BLP violation where the article talk page consensus might be showing a bit of resistance to the site's policy itself. ] (]) 10:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' pro-fringe single purpose accounts are bad for the project. ] (]) 19:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - What exactly is the reason to do this here? If jps wishes to file a vague ANI complaint against LLW (a new editor), there is a legitimate process for that which would look a lot less like witness intimidation. - ] (]) 20:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::This has nothing to do with any RfC. And we don't vote on Misplaced Pages.
			::Your own POV editing is openly in question as well, particularly considering on your talk page with LLW. Statements like this "{{tq|If you are interested in what the FBI knows but can't say, the next six months are expected to bring the release of a great deal more information. Stock up on popcorn I guess. If you want to improve the lab leak article, I don't know what to tell you. As you've noticed there are some deeply rotten things going on and the admins seem afraid to step in}}" very heavily indicates your own POV inclinations regarding scientific topics. ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Note to closer: Palpable is another lableak POVPUSHING SPA. They only made about 70 edits between their account creation in 2006 and 2022, when their editing shifted to be basically solely arguing about lableak on talkpages for over 2 years at this point. ] (]) 20:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think you'd find it's a little more complicated than that, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Also, witness intimidation. - ] (]) 20:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::"Witness intimidation" 😂 so are we now a court of law? His honor, ] is our ]? ] tells us you are an ] that has ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 21:44, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::] is not witness intimidation, nor is this a court. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm happy to discuss my background and motivations over email with an admin who has a record of neutrality regarding FTN. - ] (]) 22:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This is at ANI, so it should be discussed at ANI. "I'll only discuss it in secret" is not how things are played here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:01, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Noted, thanks. - ] (]) 05:43, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' They have openly stated, as I linked above, their purposes of pushing information that the scientific community is "trying to cover up". Their POV pushing is blatant and reinforced by them being an SPA in this topic area. A topic ban would be a potential stopgap to hopefully have them actually become a proper constructive editor, rather than just outright banning them for their clear ] activities. So, if anything, a topic ban is much more merciful than the alternative. ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:11, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Silverseren is heavily involved in the underlying dispute. I have never said that there is "information that the scientific community is 'trying to cover up', just that there was never a thorough investigation and the debate is ongoing or inconclusive (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) (https://www.wissenschaftstehtauf.ch/Inside_the_Virus-Hunting_Nonprofit_at_the_Center_of_the_Lab-Leak_Controversy_Vanity_Fair.pdf), that we ought to remove or attribute the sources we use whose authors have a direct relationship with the facility that the theory implicates (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/ "Shi herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest") and that we won't be including in the article any of the less prestigious, primary sources (e.g., https://www.jpands.org/vol29no1/orient.pdf) nor the non-peer reviewed sources (https://docs.house.gov/meetings/VC/VC00/20230711/116185/HHRG-118-VC00-20230711-SD005.pdf - a U.S. defense laboratory that sequenced the virus and https://www.scienceopen.com/document/read?vid=23853f40-72f5-443a-8f87-89af7fce1a92 - a Bayesian analysis) in support of a lab leak scenario. ] (]) 10:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''' tban from COVID articles. The editor has ]ed themselves, it seems. SPA consumate. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I '''support''' in the first place a topic ban from Covid-19 broadly construed, but will also support a tban from COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory in case that narrower ban gets more traction here. ] &#124; ] 10:29, 12 January 2025 (UTC).
			:@], Misplaced Pages being "]" in this context just means that we use the most prestigious source material available to verify our claims. It doesn't tell us to suppress verifiable information just because it would "challenge the status quo" in society. By the way, I am not saying that my account exists "to challenge the status quo". I'm just correcting what might be a misrepresentation on your part as to what that document prescribes for us. I have always used high-quality sources in any of my edits to the main-space articles and used the talk pages to express my concerns about unverified claims. ] (]) 11:18, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' I fail to see how this addresses Hob Gadling's chronic and intractable behavioral issues. ] (]) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' – weak support for TBAN from COVID-19 overall, strong support for COVID-19 Origins, broadly construed (to include Gain of Function research, Fauci, WIV, etc) - This editor has repeatedly cast ASPERSIONS , has stated several times over that they intend to edit in a POV way to 'correct the biases that are in favor of the democratic party' , has shown a very poor understanding of policy (e.g. trying to advocate for a POVFORK , saying a discussion shouldn't be closed because no one could truly understand how complicated it is ) and a poor ability to assess the content of sources where they have a clear bias, repeatedly hitting others over the head with that ''failure to understand'' (e.g. ]/] ). I think they could probably benefit from editing a less contentious area of Misplaced Pages. (and yes I have participated in some of these discussions involving LLW) —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 21:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Shibbolethink is heavily involved in the dispute and misinterprets as bludgeoning my consistent opposition to their prolific use of faulty citations. The examples of citations they provided here are a perfect case study in what I had assumed was a good faith misunderstanding but am now convinced must be intentional mis-attribution. None of the links they provided substantiate anything they’re saying. ] (]) 22:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' – COVID-19 broadly construed. I originally suggested trouts. But Lardlegwarmer’s responses in this section have convinced me that this user has problems with NPOV, DUE, and RS that continue even on AN/I. Perhaps six months editing elsewhere will be of value. And yes, I have been involved. ] (]) 21:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Consensus on a ban proposal is not supposed to include editors that are involved in the underlying dispute. Why are these accounts casting votes?] (]) 22:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Says who? Everyone can comment here. ] (]) 22:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::They can comment but the authority to ban comes from a “consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute” so I’m assuming that means they don’t get a vote(?) ] ] (]) 02:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Actually, I think six of the !votes are from editors who have posted to a Covid article, including two of the three opposes. I don't know about the other pages you listed as I've never heard of most of them. I am involved in one of the seven pages you listed in your filing. But I don't see how I'm involved in the {{tq|underlying dispute}} you have with Hob. The closer can take this all into account. ] (]) 12:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Lardlegwarmers may be right. Palpable's Oppose !vote, in particular, reflects involvement in the Covid lab leak dispute and should be disregarded. ] (]) 22:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The criteria of having simply posted to a COVID article does not serve as a threshold for being in a dispute with lard leg warmers. If a vote is to be disregarded for its caster's fulfillment of being involved in a dispute with lard's POV-pushing, then a talk page discussion, diffs should be linked for certain proof. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Echoing @]'s statement. I understand how it can be seen as problematic (also why I'm not voting), but that's not the standard. Furthermore, if it was, that would equally disqualify @] and @]. (It shouldn't, just to be clear, but just making sure that's documented if we're going down this road.) ] (]) 21:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Covid-19 T-ban. Their behaviour here smacks of "Them vs. everybody". ] (]) 22:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I understand your sentiment, but what am I expected to do when all these editors are directly invoking my name and mischaracterizing my behavior and using sanction-gaming to push me out of a contentious discussion? ] (]) 02:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Surprised the CIVILPOV-pushing edit requests flooding my COVID watchlist this past month didn't result in a tban earlier. ] (]) 03:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Well it would have spoiled all the fun, since a CIVILPOV guy is apparently fair game to use as target practice for ad hominems in the talk page ] (]) 10:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' given the behavior in this area of editing. And before you reply, Lardle, I suggest you read ]. You don't need to comment on every !vote here.
	::::Can an Administrator '''<big><big>PLEASE</big></big>''' finalise this? It's over a week now since it got here. The existence of this discussion has led to more nonsense being posted about me and the page in question above, and to Pete/Skyring starting a farewell thread at ], attracting even more nonsense. ] (]) 06:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:— <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			=== Proposals re Hob Gadling and civility ===
	::::: Won't someone please think of me... HiLo you need to read the boy who cried wolf, poor you, poor, poor HiLo. You never stop to think you bring the nonsense on yourself... There is a vote going on actually at the moment about where we should go about this in a less drama filled manner and things such as this are exactly what I was talking about. --] (]) 13:25, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::*I don't like HiLo any more than you do, but that post was bang out of line, and extremely unhelpful. ] ] 16:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::Gentlefolk. Please. I have the luxury of being able to say that this thread is about me. I have no control over it, nor would I wish anyone to feel they are unable to speak, but it is not helpful to attack others in this particular discussion.
	:::::::Just me, apparently. :) --] (]) 18:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::Yes, Orestes, thank you for proving my point. I hope that when some helpful administrator finally notices this thread, they decide to also do something about you. Please go away. You are not helping anybody. ] (]) 20:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|Hob Gadling}}
	== Incompetent editor who pushes fringe views ==
	{{Archivetop|Rough consensus is to pursue mediation. See ] -- ] (]) 17:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC) }}
	This is a complaint about ].
			There are concerns about ] regarding this editor's behaviour. Should a ] be in order? A ]? Or an ] when addressing other users? The community will decide.
	He repeats ''ad nauseam'' that same information about the Gospel of Matthew having originally been written in Hebrew, which multiple editors repeatedly told him it is ].
			<span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	Misunderstanding of basic Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines: at {{diff|User_talk:Ret.Prof|593661428|593660510}} does not understand that ] cannot be used to establish facts for Misplaced Pages, since it means indulging in ], and he said that even after I explained him this official Misplaced Pages policy.
			:<s>'''Support 1 month block''' – Hob needs an ultimatum, and the behaviour, even though they're right much of the time, is unacceptable per ].</s> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This feels ]. ] (]) 18:03, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|extended discussion}}
			:::Sure it would be. As ] once ]: "Consequences." <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::When ] shot ] in '']'', was that punishment? Or was that the ''consequence'' of Bill Skarsgard acting in a contentious manner and engaging in general buffoonery, conducting himself way out of place and S(crew)A(round)+F(ind)O(ut)? You conflate "punishment" with there being consequences for tomfoolery. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::We're discussing this on Misplaced Pages, not John Wick: Chapter 4, so I'm not sure how that has any relevance.<br>Also, that sounds exactly like a punishment to me. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I'm disappointed you can't understand ]. 😔 <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I suppose that, say, per example, a ] who edits their respective topics is "punished" when the consequences (block) start to kick in for their general bothersomeness? Look, we can have a whole schpeel about what the ], or we can subvert expectations and be really straightforward about a subtle subject. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			*'''Oppose block''' I don't think this is a sanctionable level of incivility. I'd be ok with sending them a trout. ] (]) 18:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose block''' Hob is a long term contributor most often engaged in the thankless task of keeping fringe nuttery from overtaking a range of obscure articles. I don't see a history of problematic incivility that would warrant a block. ] (]) 18:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support block''' as per BarntToust. Over the years I've seen the editor be rude and borderline bully, if not outright. It doesn't reflect well on Wiki.] (]) 18:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{anchor|HOB edit restriction}}
			* A 1 month block is not likely to change long-term behavior, and would only amount to punishment. That's why we don't do temporary blocks in cases like this. Rather, something is needed that will force Hob to adjust their behavior if they want to continue to edit. An indef block would do it, but seems over the top. One alternative would be an ]. What about:
			:{{tqb|Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 12 months on ].}}
			:Of course Hob would be free to point out that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is ], or anything else related to the editorial process, but they would be prohibited from commenting on other editors' ''ability'' to come to such conclusions for themselves.
			{{collapse top|some of the diffs above to which this would apply|bg=LightGray}}
			{{collapse bottom}}
			:I think this would solve a lot of the civility problems we see in the diffs. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 19:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Should we apply the same strict civility standards to ] (]) 19:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|extended discussion}}
			:::]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::No. ] (]) 19:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::"I am your father." <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::General complaints with the direction of the project and bemoaning that we ain't a ] don't exactly scream "ur contribs and opinions are BS" like they do w/ Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I just think it's a little rich for someone whose semi-retirement comment bemoans "incompetent editors" at some length to be the person to propose a specific instruction that another editor be {{tq|prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities}}. Glass houses, stones, all that. ] (]) 19:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Yeah. I'm glad they didn't direct this at anyone specific, though. I've seen people complain that the ] is misappropriating funds to be a charity instead of a web hosting organisation, but long my five years of editing here have been since I've seen anyone with the audacity to take it directly to ] or the accounts of the ]. (I mean, for the most of the years as an IP it's been semi-protected but hey ain't seen anything about it in the Signpost). <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I mean, as long as nobody is being directly addressed in ''any'' scenario of any complaint, whether its Foundation business or Meritocracy grievances or words about the intellectual capacities of editors with opposing viewpoints, and its kept broad and generalised about the ''overall'' direction of the project, it's like trying to hold recourse against an editor for having a "I think Democrats are slandering ] on Misplaced Pages" userbox vs. the editor actually going out in the wild to ] a Democrat over their position in a discussion on ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Unfortunately for this case, there's diffs galore of Hob going out of their way to call others' opinions and mental capacities bullshit and dull, and thus we are here. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 20:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			:::Oh I deal with the same problems Hob does, believe me. Many around here do. ] is a thing, and yes, I personally believe it should be enforced much more vigorously. But no, I generally don't comment on other editors' intellectual capabilities in discussions. Most editors do not. If you want to discuss this further, please do so at my user talk. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 20:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::And those words, editors, are the summary of the conclusion drawn at the above "extended discussion" CT. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 20:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose block''' Obviously punitive. We don't do that. ] 19:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Strongly '''oppose block''' per my ]. ] &#124; ] 19:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC).
			*<s>'''Support editing restriction''' ].</s> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' as I've seen worse stuff going on than "{{tq|bullshit}}". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' any sanctions on Hob Gadling - I'm not seeing any clear sanctionable misbehavior here. ] ] 20:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Punitive. ] (]) 21:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Just not seeing it as sanctionable. As an aside, the four (count them four) collapses in this filing are an example of why I prefer AE. ] (]) 22:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong oppose''' per Pppery, O3000 etc. Tired of efforts to sanction good editors based on concepts of civility which are overly formalistic and don't duly assign weight to context (in my opinion, of course). ---] ] 23:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''- I also see no obvious justification for a block. ] ] 10:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' formal warning or 1 week block as per discussion above. It now also looks that there has been some 'coordinated editing', with all editors aligned to one POV on Covid lab leak page coming out to place ban on OP for reporting this uncivil behaviour. This was bad ban by {{ping|The Bushranger}} who failed to recognise malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors, who damage the project. ] (]) 20:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Or, "unconfirmed conspiracies are ] and there's nothing more to it than that", y'know. Have you even read the screed Lard leg warmers added to their page? I mean, seriously? ] says that this is ], but, y'know, fringe is fringe, and if being a "small but well coordinated group of POV editors" is what you get for adhering to veracity, then Lord help us. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 20:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:{{tq|malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors}} And you're complaining about another editor's uncivil behavior? Okay... ] (]) 22:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yes, I am referring to them as group, and I am claiming here, on administrator talk page, '''which is for these complaints''', that they are coordinated, most likely '''off-wik'''i. The vote to ban is not truly representative of community. ] (]) 07:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose Block''' - send trouts instead. sometimes getting exasperated in a project is different than actual bad-faith edits. if a long-term pattern of incivility, more punitive measure coudl be warranted. diffs brought up don't seem that bad, though they could have been more civil. ] (]) 20:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*could '''support apaugasma's suggestion'''. seems useful. ] (]) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*: {{tq|"Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense"}} is far too vague for an editing restriction. The problem is "including but not limited to"; if the restriction ended after the word "capabilities" you might have something you could work with (though I would still oppose it). ] 22:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Isn't everyone prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::: Not necessarily. If I am editing, say, a scientific article, and am forever having to revert an editor who is making errors because they don't understand the subject, it is not a violation of civility to point out that they need to go away and learn about it ''before'' trying to edit again. The rather woolly restriction above would stop someone from doing even that. ] 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Black Kite is right on point. Problem is Hob can't do that without highly personal comments of people not being , lacking , being prone to believe in views and , etc. Also, I'm fairly confident that if Hob were restricted from pointing out incompetence, someone else would do so in a civil way. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::This is why the editing restriction is appealable, this editing restriction is not necessary on regular editors, but appears necessary for them. ] (]) 09:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Clearly not sanctionable, and hardly even uncivil, especially when viewed in the context of the discussions. At most maybe awarding a barn-trout (is there such a thing?) that celebrates that he didn't actually loose his cool and become uncivil, while at the same time, being rather offputting and feeding the POV-troll. ]&thinsp;] 07:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong oppose''' per Bish. The day we start punishing good contributors for not having a constantly saintly response to awful ] POV-pushers is the day this project goes to hell. ''']''' <sup>(] - ])</sup> 12:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:We do all the time, our civility policies do not care if you are right in a discussion or good contributors. You are way off the mark in your general assessment. ] (]) 14:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Indeed, it's even ''part of the civility policy'' (]). - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I'm well familiar with civility guidelines and that being right doesn't exclude you from them. The point is that we should not mete out sanctions, let alone a ''month block'' in situations where there is an occasional display of imperfection when responding to POV pushing - especially considering per the comment above what is being replied to. If this was a genuine ] breach I'd support sanctions but I have not seen anything from Hob above that meets that. ''']''' <sup>(] - ])</sup> 23:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Again you seem to be factoring in them being right with your justification because it was responding to POV pushing. Also no one expects perfection, just to do better. The bar is already so low, lets not encourage limbo. ] (]) 01:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''By all means ]'''. We should all strive to be nicer and not personalize. Believe me, I understand that it is hard in these contexts. ] (]) 13:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposed Hob Gadling Editing Restriction by Apaugasma ===
	A case of ]: his ability to find, evaluate and render the viewpoints of reliable sources make me think that he does not have great scholarly abilities. I do not want to be offensive, but this is my sincere impression when confronted with his edits. There are some things which scholars consider as poor academic performance and one of them is misquoting the viewpoints of other scholars. If one consequently fails to render the viewpoints of the sources he is quoting, it smells either like poor academic performance or as academic fraud (like in trying to game other editors, who are required to assume good faith in citing sources). Proof: at {{diff|User_talk:Davidbena|593661170|577682595}} he misrepresents several sources, which specifically affirm the following information which severely undermines his own case:
			{{userlinks|Hob Gadling}}
	{{quote|Hence the quite confused tradition that it was originally written in Aramaic or even in Hebrew.|Maurice Casey|Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, 2010, p. 89}}
			{{tqb|Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 6 months at ].}}
	http://books.google.de/books?id=lXK0auknD0YC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA88&focus=viewport&dq=it+is+genuinely+true+that+the+apostle+Matthew+compiled
			Hob Gadling is permitted to comment that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is ], or anything else related to the editorial process, but prohibited from commenting on other editors' ''ability'' to come to such conclusions for themselves, enforceable with blocks. ] (]) 09:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' Great contribution is not a get-out-of-jail free card from ] & ], complying with this editing restriction should not be difficult. ] (]) 09:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{quote|If this interpretation of Papias is correct, there are several historical problems. First, modern specialists in language hold that the author of Matthew wrote in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic. Second, most scholars accept the Two-Source theory (see Chapter 15, "The Synoptic Problem," in this volume). This theory requires that the author of Matthew knew and used Greek versions of Mark and Greek Q as sources. Third, the gospel contains sayings and sayings collections, but is itself not a collection of sayings such as Proverbs or The Gospel of Thomas. In short, Papias' description does not correspond well with the New Testament.|Dennis C. Duling, p. 302 in David E. Aune|The Blackwell Companion to the New Testament, 2010}}
			:this is already being debated above. thought we generally shouldnt make multiple RFCs in a single section like this anyways? ] (]) 14:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Suspected off-wiki coordination in COVID-19 lab leak topic===
	See http://books.google.de/books?id=ygcgn8h-jo4C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA301&focus=viewport&dq=%22Matthew+comes+from+Papias%22+Eusebius+trustworthy
			It appears there is off-wiki coordination between POV editors going back many years in this topic. It is easy to spot this because complaints of non-neutral wording and unbalanced sourcing are frequent over years and from varied editors, while responses always the same and from same group of editors, often ending up in administrator talk boards like this resulting in quick ban by passing admin unaware of this dynamic. Calls for neutrality rarely ask for more than slightly more neutral wording (like not using wikivoice to describe "misplaced suspicion" in lab leak theory due to outbreak's proximity to lab ), and responses always cursory and blunted, and often even uncivil, which is why OP started this discussion. It common for these editors to immediately start threatening sanctions as soon someone comes near topic asking for more neutral coverage, making it impossible for progress without RFC on every tiny point. It is required for administrators to review coordinated editing in this topic. ] (]) 07:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Let be caution you to not draw undue attention to yourself in these discussions, not because there is some grand conspiracy, coordination or cabal at work. Rather because it will cause people to being to look into some of your questionable editing behaviors. This is especially true as it seems like you're doubling-down on your position shared with a now TBAN'ed user, while casting grand aspirations of off-wiki coordination. However, if you have an actual accusation to present formally, please start a new section and be prepared to ''provide evidence'' (especially in the form of diffs) and not simply broad claims. Without such, there is no more a claim you might have to editors coordinating to work against your position, than might be said of editors who you align with that have been blocked or banned from FT topics. Please take a moment and look over ] and let me again caution you against boomerang, which LW learned the hard way. And lets you be tempted like Palpable above, this is not a threat, but please take it as intended, which is a friendly, AGF, suggestion to consider how you proceed from here, as your self-perspective of the situation does not reflect the actual reality of the situation. ]&thinsp;] 08:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{quote|In any event, Papias does not seem to provide us with the kind of information we can place a lot of confidence in. I should point out, in this connection, that scholars have almost uniformly rejected just about everything else that Papias is recorded to have said in the surviving references to his work.
			:It might actually be {{tqq|easy to spot this}} because we're all so very, very used to the same old song and dance from POV-pushers by this point, can spot them coming from a mile away, and know that "neutrality" is the last thing they actually want. ] explains this very well - as does ]: {{tqq|There is no cabal conspiring against you unless you created it}}. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	...
			::It would be easy to spot if you read dispute where there is actual RfC where consensus (so far) clearly leans in the way of the editor you call POV pusher. Perhaps it was too much for me to ask that you read the diffs properly instead of taking the complaint on face value, but I expect more of you as an admin. ] (]) 13:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If you could provide diffs or links for your claim of off-wiki collusion that would help. Circumstantial evidence and asking editors to read between the lines isn't very useful. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Are you being facetious? Off-wiki coordination is by definition, off-wiki, and diffs are not possible. This is an administrator noticeboard diffs are not the only admissible form of evidence. ] (]) 13:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|This is an administrator noticeboard}}, clearly, yes it is, that and that only. The evidence required to prove off-wiki collusion should be sent to ], because off-wiki business can't be brought here because, many reasons, though to start, posting reddit links and discord convos usually constitutes a vio of ]. So get off of this noticeboard with problems it is unable to address, and see ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Also, should such evidence exists, don't just open an AE case (again, ]) but rather contact the arbitration committee privately. ] (]) 13:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Coming to ANI about off-wiki collusion compares to a person calling a ] when their plumbing is clogged. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 14:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{small|]. ]] 22:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			::::::::Aha. I refer to calling a welder when plumbing is ''clogged'', not really installed or replaced. Usually when I call the local plumber to unclog my master bathroom toilet, a minimal amount of sparks are produced during their work. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 23:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you have evidence of off-wiki coordination this should be sent privately to the arbitration committee. If you don't have evidence you never should have opened this thread anyway. Either way the right thing to do is to withdraw this accusation from this venue. ] (]) 13:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You apparently only read "diffs" and not "or links". Unsubstantiated ] shouldn't be anywhere, let alone ANI. If you have any proof take it to ARBCOM per Simonm223. If you don't have ''actual'' proof then you should retract your claim. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 14:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::So... are ya gonna cast ASPERSIONS or are you gonna send Arbitrarion some links to, idk, discord servers, IRC rooms, anything? Bans—they're what happens when an editor has, nearly a fetish, for trying to include information—at every possible turn—that goes against medical professionals' standpoints. Consensus in the scientific community establishes an idea and discounts another, Misplaced Pages covers the major, non-fringe outlooks on subjects. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 11:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Don't play devil's advocate for POV-pushers. You get nowhere with it. Unless you have '''damning''' proof that editors are banding together behind-the-curtains in illicit fashion, I encourage you to strike some text using <nowiki><s></nowiki> {{!tq|your unwarranted remarks here}} <nowiki></s></nowiki> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	If scholars are inclined to discount what Papias says in virtually every other instance, why is it that they sometimes appeal to his witness in order to show that we have an early tradition that links Matthew to one of our Gospels, and Mark to another? Why do these scholars accept some of what Papias said but not all of what he said? I suspect it is because they want to have support for their own points of view (Matthew really wrote Matthew) and have decided to trust Papias when he confirms their views, and not trust him when he does not.
			* I suggest that {{noping|IntrepidContributor}} should either provide evidence to Arbcom or immediately withdraw this accusation. Either way this topic of discussion should be closed as inappropriate to AN/I. ] (]) 13:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang'''. ] has repeatedly made aspersions and assumptions of bad faith against many editors, both here and in the , none of which are supported by ''any'' evidence whatsoever. Making such baseless accusations the focus of an ANI subsection is a waste of editors' time, and when combined with their disruptive actions elsewhere (''e.g''., ) it indicates that a time-out is required. ] (]) 15:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I want to give them the chance to withdraw their accusation before calling for a boomerang. But if they refuse to do so or just disappear from the thread with the comments out there then, yeah, it's probably that time. ] (]) 15:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::We now have , which demonstrates that ] has chosen to triple- (quadruple?) down on their evidence-free aspersions against multiple editors. ] (]) 15:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::OK that was doubling down after they got clear instructions about how to handle it from more than one editor here. ] (]) 15:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Instructions? What are you? ] (]) 18:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Sorry for not being clear. By "time-out" I mean a '''topic ban''' from COVID-19, broadly construed. I can understand why the repeated, evidence-free aspersions and assumptions of bad faith, which have yet to be withdrawn, justify an indef. I just don't see how this approach is a benefit to the project. ] (]) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang'''. If it was just this out-of-pocket subsection, I would agree with {{noping|Simonm223}} on giving some time of day, but since Intrepid's ] have been pervasive throughout this report according to {{noping|JoJo Anthrax}}'s motion, and also considering that they ], a boomerang needs to happen so this improper conduct can be addressed. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*There was ] three years ago. If IntrepidContributor has any evidence they should go to Arbcom for ]. Otherwise, they should retract and ] their aspersions here ASAP. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang''' After being advised that they should privately contact the arbitration committee this editor instead just spammed the accusation into the comments of an AE filing about someone who shares their POV. This is inappropriate and disruptive. ] (]) 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang''' IntrepidContributor was pointed to ] eleven days ago in this filing and knows what it means. This is yet more worthy of a BOOM than the OP. ] (]) 15:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'd like to give IntrepidContributor one last chance to strike their comment, otherwise I don't see how this can end anyway but badly for them. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 16:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	The result of this quick examination of Papias is, I think, that he passes on stories that he has heard, and he attributes them to people who knew other people who said so. But when he can be checked, he appears to be wrong. Can he be trusted in the places that he cannot be checked? If you have a friend who is consistently wrong when he gives directions to places you are familiar with, do you trust him when he gives directions for someplace you’ve never been?
			::Following warnings and warnings about not casting aspersions and making baseless claims of collusion, IntrepidContributor ignored them and to ] anyways. Their chances have run out. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. ] (]) 18:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Based on this answer, yeah, I think the best course of action is to encourage IC to look for other parts of the encyclopedia where they can work collaboratively and to be firmly invited to cease editing anything related to COVID-19. ] (]) 18:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This comment, {{tq|I '''would''' be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, '''but I think they know already''', as do you}}, makes it sound like you are either bullshitting everyone about having evidence, or you are more worried about running everyone around the corner like dogs at a fire hydrant rather than actually helping out and exposing some serious fuckery that's going on in the topic. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 18:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] As an uninvolved admin looking over this, I suggest that you either confirm your submission of evidence to ARBCOM or cease your allegations of off-wiki collusion. You've not provided any evidence/diffs for on-wiki collusion and have repeatedly made accusations. This is unacceptable. ] ] ] 18:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::How are my supposed to confirm submission of evidence and to who? ] (]) 18:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Damn it, dude, you ARE running us around the bend like dogs at a fire hydrant! As has been instructed for you to do '''numerous times''': Go to the page --> ] <-- and look for the instructions to submit reports, and put your "evidence" there. Confirm that you did so here, <s>and we will ]: whether or not you actually did matters to nobody, because the only thing that will matter is that</s> {{!tq|and}} ''if you did'', a case that is '''none of our concern''' will open, and then if that case finds your "evidence" true, then those of us involved in the conspiracy will be put to arbitration either behind the scenes or at ]. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 18:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Or as the uninvolved Admin notes, an arb will confirm that they have received ''something'' from you, thus this tangent will close. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 18:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Say you've emailed them and I'm sure {{U|ScottishFinnishRadish}} or {{U|HJ Mitchell}} or another arb would be able to confirm receipt of a substantive and meaningful email containing your evidence. If they can confirm it, I would close this discussion. If not, I would look at ] ] ] 18:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Sure, I will email them in the morning (EET). I didn't plan on this extra work load today. But I have enough diffs to make the report by then. ] (]) 18:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You are putting this off as if you have nothing to report. First IntrepidContributor says "I have diffs", then '''present them'''. No, it's "I have off-wiki collusion", then '''go to ARBCOM'''. Cycling back-and-fuckin'-forth between this dog-fire hydrant nonsense, and ''finally'', now we're back at "{{tq|I have enough diffs}}". And you ask, "{{tq|to who}} ?", and after reiterating everything we have said numerously through this thread, you say {{tq|I will email them in the morning}}. You had enough time today to open this thread, then throw a ] of accusations everywhere, and you had enough time to . Yet, you don't have enough time to list diffs and give explanations to the arb committee? I smell a load of horse shit.
			:::::::<br>
			:::::::'''I invite the next uninvolved admin to''' {{!tq|issue a block}} '''to {{noping|IntrepidContributor}} for general ]'''.
			:::::::<br>
			:::::::Yours in ], ], and ], <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 19:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] - by my watch it is now in the afternoon EET (17:55), can you confirm here if you have actually submitted the email earlier today as promised here? ]&thinsp;] 15:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@] @] -- any chance you can confirm if @] has contacted ARBCOM in the last 24 hours? ]&thinsp;] 16:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Nothing in my inbox. ] &#124; ] 17:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I think at this point IC has failed to make good on their "I'll do it in the morning" commitment. And they still decline to withdraw their personal attacks and baseless accusations. ] (]) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq| I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you.}} This is a direct accusation against an editor here and a nonsensical statement about the arbs. ] (]) 18:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq|as do you}} No I <s>struck</s> don't and I've had enough of being tarred with baseless <s>struck</s>. Whether that's here or at lableak talk page, somewhere I rarely comment on a topic I rarely edit. You appear to only be able to see editors you disagree with through a battleground mentality, and as part of some conspiratorial cabal.
			:::Unless an Arb can confirm that evidence has been provided, and shows something I've obviously missed, I propose IntrepidContributor be '''blocked''' for ] behaviour. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Well, they said they think the arbs already know. So I guess they're in on the conspiracy. ] (]) 20:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@], please Read that again in '''''full''''' context. {{tq|What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you.}} This was only a smartass, tongue-in-cheek remark about how "everybody here knows about fight club, but doesn't talk about it". Like, a smartass remark that "POV-pushing and cabals are an open secret knownst to the ]" or something. No arb has been notified, the editor is being a smartass. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 20:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Oh, I read this two ways, I thought you misread their text 😅 you're probably just being funny. lol sorry. The editor still needs a block tho. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 20:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes. But at this point, not sure I can tell when they are being serious or trolling. ] (]) 20:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@], @] - I would hope the next uninvolved admin would see that I gave conditions for IntrepidContributor. If those are not met, they will be blocked. There's no rush here and carrying on this discussion calling for blood isn't exactly productive.
			:::::::If another admin find clear and convincing evidence warranting a block of Intrepid Contributor, then they should block them. Otherwise, I'd ask that the "offer" remain. ] ] 20:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I would block them now, @], and I would wait until a member of ARBCOM confirms—not ''what'' IntrepidContributor submitted—but that what they've submitted is '''legitimate evidence of what they claim is happening'''. At that confirmation, and with the ARBCOM member's blessing to the blocking admin, then the editor would be unblocked. The editor is fucking with us even as we outline the processes to make ARBCOM reports, and their other contributions listed in this report such as improper, half-assed deletions they won't bother to complete properly are screaming NOTHERE. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 20:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I agree with BT... <small>''(except the potentially uncivil, but probably warranted uncivil language)...''</small> Beyond this discussion, IC is otherwise being disruptive to the project including blanking pages with a lousy excuse.. Since they had the time to start this discussion that was apparently so urgent and a big deal, yet not the time to complete the necessary paperwork, coupled with all of the other factors, it seems like blocking to prevent further disruption is prudent. ]&thinsp;] 20:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::thanks for concurring. As the community has above developed a consensus that an editor using profanity to describe actions and behavior is not prohibited, I'm completely safe in calling IC's behavior shitty (]), so long as I make no direct remarks about IC ''personally''. I don't believe I've done that. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 21:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::As Jay said, besides the report, they have been being disruptive in other parts on Misplaced Pages, and considering the fact that they have been disruptive during the very processes of ANI itself, besides the unfounded claims of cabals they spew, there has been enough bullshit going on for a NOTHERE block. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 21:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Evergreen, forgive us our impatience. Some of us spend all too much time in CTOPs. It's wearing. ] (]) 21:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::If they show arbs proof of their accusations then fine, otherwise the they need to stop. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 21:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::My suspicion is that what IC actually has is like 2 diffs of some veteran editor saying to some other veteran editor "hey you should email me!" or something similar. Which is entirely normal, part of the way wikipedia works, and not "off-wiki coordination". Or some similar conspiratorial nonsense. {{pb}}When you're a '''hammer''' (''conspiracy-believing POV-pusher'') everything looks like a '''nail''' (''proof that all the mean people who disagree with you are actually part of a secret government agency that's coordinating against you and laughing about you behind your back''). {{pb}}Nothing that happens on the lab leak page requires or even ''suggests'' there is off-wiki coordination. Where contentious articles exist on wiki, there is almost always a small group of veteran editors who tangentially edit around that topic and watch their watchlists like hawks to make sure POV CPUSHing SPAs don't ruin the beauty that is a truly NPOV contentious article. They don't need to coordinate, because they generally share in common ''a belief in the five pillars'' and edit accordingly.{{pb}}I am really ''very'' excited to see what IC comes up with. —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 22:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I honestly think what it comes down to is selection bias. The sorts of people who frequent the Fringe Theory noticeboard and who don't get mad and leave quickly tend to be skeptical, critical and materialist. And critical materialist skeptics tend to look negatively on conspiracy theories, pseudo science and quackery. For a conspiracy minded person there's all these like-minded nay-sayers saying variations of "that's a conspiracy theory" and so they... do what conspiracy minded people do and assume it's a conspiracy. Really it's just a messageboard whose topic filters for a certain subjectivity. ] (]) 01:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Boomerang''' I only speak for the quad-corner-tri-city and metro areas cabal, not the greater WP:MEDRS cabal, but I agree a boomerang is in order. ] (]) 08:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang means topic ban''', I presume. But y'all would be better served to make this kind of thing clear in your arguments. My worry when it comes to this matter is primarily with IntrepidContributor's claim of ] functioning rather as something like ] (and apologies for the possible Godwin's Law implications). In any case, and even if that's not what's going on, I have a hard time seeing the net positive in this topic coming from {{userlinks|IntrepidContributor}} and generally think the problems on this topic stem from a lack of strong ] enforcement which hopefully we are now coming to terms with. ] (]) 13:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:That would be my interpretation. A topic ban is definitely in order. Maybe for all conspiracy theories as well as anything COVID related. ] (]) 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::TBan would be appropriate no matter what. But IMO these ongoing accusations should result in an '''indef block''' for NOTHERE. ] (]) 16:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang''' since they clearly did not heed advice to drop the stick and want to persist in their claims, in addition to all of the aforementioned issues. It has now been 20 hours since they posted so far, and I would be very curious to know if they actually did submit the email evidence that they claimed they would {{tq| email them in the morning (EET).}} - It is now 5:54pm (1754) in EET, so if they haven't yet, then it should result in '''indef block for legal threats''' and excessive disruption. If they did fulfill their promise, then a TBAN is still most certainly in order. ]&thinsp;] 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Did I miss something, what legal threats? ] (]) 13:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::For as much as this goofy goober IC ticks me off, I will give them one, '''one''' note: threatening to send people to the arbcom is not a legal threat. It's a Misplaced Pages "court", not an IRL court. ] doesn't apply here, but a whole heck of a lot of else does. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Ah okay thanks! ] (]) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Uh, the English Misplaced Pages's Arbitration Committee is not a court of law? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 18:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Block and TBAN already''', this is beyond ] at this point, so have no idea why people are !voting that the editor shouldn't be immune from scrutiny; based on BOOMERANG they never were in the first place, and this discussion went full circle boomerang instantly. Anyway, this has ] reading this section, I can only assume the other sections also wasted a lot of time. The editor is clearly being disruptive, casting aspersions, and is wasting everyone's time. Please don't allow this editor to drag this on any further than it already has been dragged out, such as requesting delays from ARBCOM to provide evidence or otherwise. ] (]) 17:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Dinglelingy===
	Papias is not recorded as having said anything about either Luke or John. I’m not sure why. But the bottom line is this: we do not have any solid reference to the authors of our four Gospels in which we can trust (for example, that the author is actually referring to our Matthew and our Mark) until closer to the end of the second century—nearly a full hundred years after these books had been anonymously placed in circulation.|Bart Ehrman|Jesus, Interrupted, pp. 107-110}}
			{{atop|1=No edits to mainspace since 2016. Blocked as ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 10:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			(Should we continue to keep all similar issues documented in the same monster section?)
			{{userlinks|Dinglelingy}}
	He could have himself found out that these sources undermine his own case if he bothered to read more than one page shown by Google Books.
			This ] seems to dip in and out of this controversy whenever things get "interesting", and here comes now again dipping in with some fairly spicy arguments on the Lab Leak theory talkpage: ,
	I wrote on ]:
			None of this user's contributions in this area are net positives for Misplaced Pages, and I submit that it would have been better had the proposed ] block been enacted when first proposed: . I guess a topic ban from COVID-19 could work too?
	{{quote|As far as Ehrman's book is concerned, the quote starts with "Many conservative Christian scholars use this statement to prove that what Papias says is historically accurate (especially about Mark and Matthew), but that is going beyond what the evidence gives us." So, Ehrman does not claim that Papias would be accurate in his reports, except for reporting the fact that he knew people who knew the apostles or their companions. As shown from another source, Ehrman believes that almost everything else Papias told is inaccurate and there is no indication that Ehrman has changed his mind about Papias's reliability. So, you cannot make Ehrman say that what Papias reports about a Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew would be a reliable report. What Ehrman stressed is that Papias is not a reliable source for the authorship of the Gospel of Matthew and it could be even be inferred that Ehrman affirms that Papias is historically inaccurate (with the exception of knowing those people). Just read the quote above ignoring the parenthesis and you will see what I mean. So, using Ehrman to establish the historical reliability of Papias's report fails verification, it is using partial quotations to justify an idea that Ehrman rejects. So, I was at least right about misrepresenting Ehrman's view. That's why I said that I cannot assume a fair rendering of the viewpoints of those sources, either you have failed to understand Ehrman's point or you have willfully misrepresented it. At least you could concede that you have misread what Ehrman has to say.|]}}
	:::The above allegations are simply false. Yes I am an old guy who sometimes gets confused but if you read my sources in their context you will see my references are solid. If I do make a mistake, I promptly apologize and fix the mistake. I enjoy scholarly debate and enjoy it when I "learn" something new. My edit history will support me. I am not perfect but neither do I fit the caricature presented above! - ] (]) 04:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			] (]) 02:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::I don't have a problem with:
			* 115 edits ever, and only 4 minor ones to article space. Last seen arguing on the talkpages of COVID conspiracy articles in 2021 for which they were warned multiple times, and back after four years doing the same thing ? That's the definition of ]. Indeffed. ] 08:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{quote|It is important to note that these sources are NOT saying that "Matthew's collection sayings in a Hebrew dialect" and the ] are the same work. Indeed there is clear evidence that "Matthew's Hebrew Gospel" was NOT translated into what we call the ].|Ret.Prof}}
			{{abot}}
			== User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] ==
	::::I have a problem with:
			*{{userlinks|Bgsu98}}
			Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br />
	{{quote|Now, it has to be admitted that not everyone agrees. There are still some Christian scholars who believe that the ] is a direct translation of Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel''.|Ret.Prof}}
			I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
			I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this.
	::::Namely, you did not say who disagrees and where. And, please, no sources older than 50 years.
			P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came.
	::::I also have a problem with ] (there are sources from when my grandmother was a child or even before she was born). ] (]) 12:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
	:::::And I find it disturbing that after more than five years of editing you still don't acknowledge the meaning of {{t|religious text primary}}. ] (]) 12:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::E.g., you still seem to think that Jerome and Eusebius wrote reliable sources, which could be used by Misplaced Pages in order to establish historical facts. ] (]) 12:44, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::Coming back to your sources, their authors either say that Papias was mostly unreliable (as Ehrman said) or that Papias didn't speak of what we now call the Gospel of Matthew. Therefore, his testimony about the Gospel of Matthew is either unreliable or inapplicable (irrelevant). ] (]) 13:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Some other users have already suggested a topic ban for this user, see ]. ] (]) 01:49, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, ] has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like ] without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{re|Star Mississippi|Liz}} A ], a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "]" (])? Cause I was searching for sources for ] and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.<br />Here: .<br />And again, it was {{u|Bgsu98}} who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting ]: "''There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale''." --] (]) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::After looking at ], I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: I have also found an interview with ]: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --] (]) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			: This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. ] <sub>]</sub> 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
			:He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"''
			:I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::::@]
			:::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
			:::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
			:::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
			:::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
			:::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.</p><p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.</p><p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Let me help you out here, Ravenswing. I suspect he's saying it's "very unfair" because it seems to him like it's not fair! <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. —
			:] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': The problem has been going on since 2010 on multiple related articles and is intractable. There are chronic issues with misunderstanding (or misuse) of sources and behavioral problems as well. I would like to ask for the guidance of the community as to whether this complex dispute belongs in arbitration. ] (]) 02:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)		:the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			* I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::As an uninvolved editor who has had nothing to do with that controversy, after reading the above, I would say yes, it sure sounds like a good candidate for arbitrating. ] /]/ 02:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I agree that arbitration is the way to go. - ] (]) 04:04, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::"As an uninvolved editor who has had nothing to do with that controversy," - other than that two threads about use of ] sources and ] content in Bible topics are happening on the same ANI page at the same time. One editor accuses the unanimity of New Testament textual scholars of German anti-Hebrew bias, another editor accuses the unanimity of Hebrew Bible palaeo-botanists of anti-cannabis bias. But these are exactly the issues ], ] and ] are meant to cover. ] (]) 13:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Complaints about the FTN crowd pulling allegations of FRINGE out of their ''chutzpah'' to stigmatize entire bookshelves they don't like and "win" centuries-old debates the easy way has become a regularly recurring pattern, how many more instances will it take before FTN itself gets the scrutinizing case study it deserves? (especially in religion topics where FRINGE = a barely disguised euphemism for HERESY... For the first years of its existence, I remember when FTN would steer clear of asserting who the fringe and non-fringe was in religious debates, but lately it has been acquiring a new role for itself as the Arbiter of All Truth (TM)) ] /]/ 13:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*::::The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide ] for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created '''seventeen years ago''' -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::: The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – ''and'' many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While ''you'' may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("]" and "]".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.<br />But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.<br />Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)<br />By the way, I have tried searching on what was once ], but the news search doesn't work anymore. (.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. ] (]) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Arbitrary break===
			{{Od}} ...{{Tpq|editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes}}. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years.]/]/] (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)
			:RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{re|Liz}} The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".<br />A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".<br />Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per ]", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the ] revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::], I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. ] (]) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --] (]) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::]. Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --] (]) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) ] 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: {{re|Ravenswing}}, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.<br />And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.<br />I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --] (]) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please be careful with the ], Moscow Connection. --] 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. ] (]) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. ] 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.
			:::::::Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: {{tq|Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.}} ] (]) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::And ] is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines ''after'' SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. ] (]) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::] example of ignoring SIGCOV ''already present'' in the article. ] (]) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::{{Ping|GiantSnowman}} {{Ping|Black Kite}} ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. ] (]) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::] is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. ] (]) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. ]] 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::] and ] is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised ] and , although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message {{tq|Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.}} ] (]) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::And here are ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes ], close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. ] (]) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? ]] 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Going through their contributions, I see about a week ago there was a period of 30 minutes where they did seven AfDs -- not what I would call a paragon of thoroughness. But fifty in a half-hour is absolutely absurd regardless of when it happened -- I take more time than that to line up a shot when I throw a tissue into the trash can at the other end of the room. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. ]] 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::: If you go to 10 May 2024 , you get exactly '''50''' nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per . ] (]) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. ]] 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that ] provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?<p>So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. ] 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			*I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, ''especially'' these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. ''However'', I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like ], tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. ] </span>]] 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @] and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @] without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @] basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @]. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @] probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @] is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @] we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @] ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking {{u|Star Mississippi}} to undelete the "]" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at ]. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of {{u|Kvng}}, noticed: {{tq|No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG}}, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.<br />You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*I've decided to save "]" (]) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. ] (]) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:*"{{tq|You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what}}"<br />— What I do is called ]. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.<br />I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at ] and that scared me a lot. --] (]) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:*:It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. ] (]) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**I appreciate your input and insight. As I told ] earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.<br>I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! ] ] 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. ] </span>]] 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --] (]) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. ]] 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:While I do not know whether @] should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with {{tq|I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.}} @]. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. ] ] 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating ''far'' fewer articles with {{tq|Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}} I suppose the whole discussion is moot. ] </span>]] 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)<br />As I have commented below, when problems were found with {{u|Sander.v.Ginkel}}'s articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --] (]) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if ] can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. ] ] 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, and . ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. ] (]) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::"As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that ] is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) ] ] 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --] (]) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			* As a fellow ] participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that {{ping|Bgsu98}} convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion ''is'' warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--] ] 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Mass AfDs routinely get shot down reflexively, on the (somewhat threadbare) grounds that they should all be reviewed on their individual merits, and not lumped in a group. Something of a Catch-22 there. In any event, the answer for an inadequately sourced article is not to jump through extraordinary hoops to find what isn't there. The answer is that the article cannot be sustained -- but can be recreated without prejudice should such sourcing surface down the road -- even when it's an article on a figure skater. ] 00:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Right, good point. But it still makes sense for cases where the rationale is mostly the same. Maybe not 100 articles in one but 5-10. This should help keep it at a more manageable level. ] ] 05:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I agree with you, but in recent years, a significant number of editors haven't: sufficient to sabotage most attempts to do so. ] 13:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend ''everyone'' take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, ] states the following: {{tq|Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.}} So, I'd ask {{ping|Moscow Connection}} to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.{{pb}}But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: ''a normal Google search'', or a ''Google Books search'', or a ''Google News search'', or a ''Google News archive search''? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for '''expanding ] to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects'''. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly ''recommend'' more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but ''required''? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are '''significantly''' based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.{{pb}}Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely ]). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does '''not''' require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion ''at the appropriate place'' if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for ]'s name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --] (]) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet ], so unless you can show that there are ''multiple'' instances of ''significant'' coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --] (]) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: ]. As usual, the rationale is: {{tq|Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.}}) --] (]) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner ] (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --] (]) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: Another example: ].<br />A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".<br />(I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --] (]) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: ]. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --] (]) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::You ''do'' realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. ] (]) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::::{{re|HyperAccelerated}} Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --] (]) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::Personally, I would feel I had done a slipshod job if I made a nomination for an article with some passing-mention search results, and I did not address these in the nomination statement, or at the very least indicate that I had made the search. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (], ], ]) - dates back to ]. In fact, last year ] (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with ]. ]@] 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. {{ping|Bgsu98}} It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are ''multiple'' examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that ] already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care ''why'' they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.{{pb}}If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.{{pb}}All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I've provided some 20 examples as well. ] (]) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --] (]) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. ] (]) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a ] and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --] (]) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by ]. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is ''your'' responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. ] (]) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. ] (]) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @] revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. ] (]) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{OD}}
			*'''Oppose any sanctions''' to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to {{U|Moscow Connection}} above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. ] (]) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:In case it was not already clear I too '''Oppose''' sanctions against @]. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. ] (]) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Whereas I '''support''' some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. ]] 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to ], my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. ] ] 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your ]. ] (]) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. ] ] 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			* How about ] just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment {{tq|I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}}) and we end the discussion? ] (]) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:@] I second this proposal. ] (]) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. ] (]) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Two a day is fine by me. ]] 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)<br />Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)<br />Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --] (]) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. ] ] 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::At this point, I'm seriously starting to think Moscow Connection needs topic banned from AfD in general, if not the entire subject matter of these articles. MC has demonstrated an inability to edit collaboratively without resorting to personal attacks and demands. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::I am regrettably willing to support either of those sanctions against MC at this point. They’ve been warned multiple times about the possibility of a ], and those warnings were not heeded. While I really want to assume good faith here, their behavior resembles ], following Bgsu from nomination to nomination and casting a copious amount of aspersions on this ANI thread. Even if some of the Keep votes provide legitimate sources, the act of following a user across many discussions and refbombing them (in at least one case, as described in the discussion below) is not acceptable. ] (]) 00:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*: And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --] (]) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the ]. The ] article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (]) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)<br />There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:MC, you are rapidly digging a hole you will not be able to get out of. This incessant demands and aggressive comments are wearing thin, and if you do not stop you are likely to face ] sanctions yourself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::{{reply|HandThatFeeds}} Okay, okay, sorry! By the way, I didn't even have this page on my watchlist and was just waiting for the outcome. (I came here yesterday, and there were no new replies. So I thought that was all, everyone was just waiting for an admin closure. I, personally, had said everything I wanted, I didn't even have anything to add.)<br />P.S. I just came here now because Bgsu98 have edited some of my Russian figure skater articles just now. (I'm not attacking him, he hasn't ever nominated even one article of mine for AfD. Maybe because I'm trying to add a source or two to them.) --] (]) 04:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I think this would be reasonable. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I can see how Bgsu's nomination volume can be a problem, and support his voluntary limitations and promise to provide more thorough deletion rationales. At the same time, given the kinds of sources MC has produced as "evidence" of GNG at, e.g., ], I think his perception of our notability requirements is wildly out of line with the community's. As @] pointed out in that AfD, MC basically ''repeatedly'' refdumped a bunch of interviews and couple-sentence mentions despite being informed of their ineligibility in contributing toward GNG, so if those are the kinds of sources they are bringing up now to demonstrate "nonexistent BEFORE searches" I am quite skeptical that the problem is as actionable as they claim. That, coupled with their broad disapproval (unawareness?) of our current NSPORT guidelines, makes me concerned about the notability of their own creations—are they also basing those articles on interviews and routine transactional blurbs? ] (]) 18:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I've started to wonder the same thing: that if MC is either utterly unaware of relevant notability standards or (as I suspect is the case) utterly defiant of them, are they another Lugnuts or Dolovis, and their article creations full of NN subjects? Ultimately, I don't give a damn whether MC (or anyone else) likes or approves of Misplaced Pages's standards, but they have to comply with them all the same.<p>In any event, I '''oppose any sanction or limitation on Bgsu'''. I am not sure when people got the idea that filing bulk AfDs was against policy, but they are very greatly mistaken if they do think that. ANI is not the proper venue for a community discussion on changing that policy, and I recommend the Village Pump. ] 23:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			*::I came across this article today: ]. was the state of the article MC left before another user (and regular contributor to FS articles) added some of the tables. There is also this one: ]. ] ] 01:05, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Hello. I've just noticed you edits to my articles and added some reliable sources.<br />Sorry that I left the articles like that, but I'm not too interested in figure skating lately, I just saw the 2025 Russian Championships results and wanted to create some stubs for some new "figure skating stars". (Back in the days, other users, ones who know how to format all the tables, would come and do everything. Just a blink of an eye, and there's a lengthy article — competitive highlights, music, everything. But now I can't see anyone. Maybe they are upset by the changes to NSKATE and stopped working on Wiki.) --] (]) 04:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I have added simply terrific sources everywhere. (Everyone has a full-fledged biography on a big media site.) --] (]) 06:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I simply searched on Google.com. and came out on the first page. You posted here instead of simply googling.<br />P.S. I know that this article is not my proudest moment. But I don't really edit figure skating articles lately and I have never been active much in this topic. Not on the English Misplaced Pages, anyway. --] (]) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::There is no such thing as 'your' articles, see ]. ]] 10:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Also that source is very dubious. Look at their about page. Notice that they have a Guinness World Records Certificate image there? It's not got the official Guinness world records logo and there are errors in how the numbers are notated on it. Which suggests this newspaper has a fake Guinness world record cert on their about page. So, yeah, not very reliable. ] (]) 19:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Hello! First of all, I must explain that I only came to that nomination because {{u|Berchanhimez}} asked me to find some examples of Bgsu98 not doing any WP:BEFORE research. So I went to ] and looked at the current nominations. I am very sorry if I "dumped" a lot of "bad" sources on that AfD page, but I simply wanted to show everything that I had found. And I believe that it is advisable that Bgsu98 does something like this in his future nominations. Like: "Look what I have found on Google. This, this. this. I believe it's not enough and the skater is not notable. Now let's discuss."<br />P.S. At first, I wanted to find some of his old nominations of some really big names, but I didn't know how to find them. So that's what I did, I came to the current ones. (I looked at some figure skating championships articles, but there were no red links. It seems that, after an article gets deleted, he or someone else deletes all the links to it.)<br />P.P.S. I should probably be advised to retire from this discussion. Cause I'm being attacked already. And it looks like some people are already advising me to go away. So I'm going away. I'm still hoping something good will come of this. --] (]) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I think this is good of you. You’ve provided your examples, and it’s now up to others to decide whether they are examples of violations of BEFORE or not. Thank you for refocusing your comments on specific examples rather than the back and forth that was going on.
			*::I tend to agree that BEFORE should not be a private thing. If someone does a BEFORE and finds nothing, stating such is good. But if they find borderline or a bunch of insignificant coverage, then providing at least examples of that in the nomination with a short explanation as to why they do not consider them valid goes to show they actually did a BEFORE.
			*::I don’t think a voluntary restriction on number of AfDs is enough to assuage the fact that the nomination statements are short and don’t address the sources that should be found during a BEFORE. But hopefully a limit of two per day will result in better nomination statements that address more borderline sources.
			*::At this point it doesn’t seem there’s any appetite for sanctions, and I think MC has been explained why many of the sources they have found don’t qualify for GNG. So maybe a closure with no action overall, and hopefully going forward less nominations at a time will result in more discussion in those nominations so that issues over why the sources found aren’t adequate can occur on each individual nomination. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 17:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Is this another one of those things where between the people who spend dozens of hours a week on enforcing policies and making up new policies and arguing about how to modify policies look down our noses at the people who "merely" write/edit articles when they are confused that the rules they laboriously followed for years have been randomly changed without even their knowledge, let alone their consensus? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:No, it's more like a dispute between someone sending a bunch of articles to AfD because they lacked proper sourcing, and a fan of those articles throwing everything they can at the wall to try and "save" those articles, while smearing the person who sent them to AfD. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Never mind what I said uptopic, JPxG: policies and guidelines change, from time to time. Always have, always will, and neither yours, mine nor anyone else's personal approval are a precondition of ratifying them. It is incumbent upon editors to stay abreast of such changes if they're engaged in ongoing article creation, but at any rate, they're not exempted from them. Leaving aside that the GNG and SIGCOV have been around for many years now, the changes in NSPORTS are a few years old themselves.<p>In any event, you surely can't be advocating that the most productive way to handle being in this situation is to kick, scream, and rail against the injustice of it all, as opposed to "Gosh, sorry, I didn't know. I'll go read those guidelines now, and conform hereafter." ] 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			**{{reply to|JPxG}} That's a good observation! :-)<br />But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a ] search. His actions are bot-like, and his AfD nominations usually receive one or two bot-like "delete" votes. We may as well just delete all the articles that are now outside of ]. It will be more fair than <u>imitating</u> an AfD process.<br />P.S. I do appreciate the people who work on AfD and put their time in reviewing the nominations. I see that some of Bgsu98's nominations do end in a "keep" thanks to those hard-working people. But there are many more that would have been kept if a proper web search was done.<br />P.S. I really can't participate in this ANI thread anymore, cause I have tried to comment on some AfD nominations and what I've got are just accusations of disrupting/sabotaging the process. --] (]) 01:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:Okay, that's enough. This is just more aspersions thrown at Bgsu98, even after all the attempts above to get Moscow to disengage. I think Moscow needs a topic ban from AfD, and a one-way IBAN with Bgsu9. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: The only thing I see about Bgsu98 in that comment is {{tq|But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a WP:BEFORE search. His actions are bot-like}}. That's certainly a valid view of the nominations. ] (]) 18:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::'''Support TBAN and IBAN:''' My hand's kind of forced here. As I stated above, I really, ''really'' didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion, and MC has been warned many times to drop the stick at this point. This is the final straw for me. These read like veiled accusations, and while MC might come here and claim that I'm misunderstanding them, I just can't give the benefit of the doubt after witnessing this consistent pattern of misbehavior. ] (]) 04:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::*First, you invite me to AfD (that I do not normally visit), then, when I do drop by, you don't like my comments and want to make me banned from there. That's unpolite, to say the least. And what IBAN, fgs? I swear I didn't even know who this Bgsu98 user was until a few days ago.<br />{{tq|My hand's kind of forced here.}} — That's just strange. You are not an admin. Do you have some anger issues? I think it is you and {{u|HyperAccelerated}} who need a ban from ANI and an IBAN from interacting with <u>me</u> because I have never seen you in my life and you are attacking me all of a sudden.<br />P.S. I hope this will be my last comment here. --] (]) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::::{{tqq|Do you have some anger issues?}} And now you're ], which is ''absolutely not a good look'' on top of everything else here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::::::{{reply to|The Bushranger}} I am very, very sorry. I didn't know that could be seen as "aspersions" that weren't allowed. They have also casted "aspersions" saying that I was trying to harrass Bgsu98 and sabotage the AfD process. When in fact, I just posted to ANI and never talked to Bgsu98 elsewhere. So I just wanted to reply to them in a similar manner. That was stupid of me.<br />As for my "disruption" at AfD, I simply searched for sources and showed everything I have found. (That's how I usually search for sources, sorry. This time I didn't even try to go through all the 100 pages of Google results.)<br />{{u|JPxG}} said that this was "one of those things" between people who enforce policies and the people who write articles. But it looks like some people who are attacking me are ] who make minor edits. And when they saw one billion sources I had dumped at one AfD, they didn't understand.<br />P.S. I hope I didn't say anything wrong again. I sincerely promise that I will never return to this discussion. Sorry for the inconvenience I have caused. --] (]) 07:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::::::I also don't think ignorance is an acceptable excuse for these kinds of comments at this point. As Ravenswing pointed out above (), you've been here for fifteen years. You should be more than familiar with the guidelines for civility by now. I also issued a warning that your behavior was becoming sanction-worthy , and Hand also issued a warning . AfD requires users to resolve disagreements over whether to keep or discuss articles in a civil manner. Given MC's aspersion that I have "anger issues" and the refbombing at ] of Bgsu's, I have serious doubts as to whether they can be an effective participant in AfDs. ] (]) 13:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::* {{tq|I really, ''really'' didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion}} – {{u|HyperAccelerated}}: would you say that mass nominating ''fifty'' different articles for deletion in half as many minutes with the exact same one-sentence rationale is ''not'' bot-like? ] (]) 16:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::*:Not entirely. I think it can be done by hand in that span of time, albeit it's a bit tedious. The use of "bot-like" in this context is questionable at best and objectionable at worst. But, regardless of whether you agree with my interpretation of this remark, I'm more concerned about a broader pattern of misbehavior coming from MC. We should not mistake the forest for the trees. ] (]) 17:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::*{{reply to|Liz}} Can this be stopped, please? I've said everything I wanted to say and went away from this discussion, but {{u|HandThatFeeds}} and {{u|HyperAccelerated}} are still attacking me and are writing something strange in bold font. It looks like they have highjacked this discussion and are leading it to some very unusual outcome.<br />P.S. I've actually found out how I "first met" Bgsu98 and I've posted my findings here on ANI, but then I deleted that post: . (I'm sorry, but Bgsu98's name looked to me like something from a random character generator. And I don't remember every sequence of characters I see on the internet. :-)) --] (]) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			***:::::On ANI, when things aren't going your way, you don't get to say "please stop the discussion". Everyone's conduct is open to discussion here - ], and {{tqq|are writing something strange in bold font}}, when the only "bold font" used by (one of) them is the (very obvous) !vote to topic-ban you, is concerning. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{Archive top
	:::::There are indeed century-old ''theological'' debates about some issues and we cannot claim that mainstream history would require that theologians revise their doctrines (while historical evidence may be important for apologetics, theology does not require historical evidence; all history books in the world cannot prove or disprove that Jesus is God, since that isn't a historical fact). But this does not imply that mainstream historians did not settle those issues as far as the secular academia cares. I don't deny that there are fundamentalist faculties who teach that "Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew", but for everyone else than fundamentalists and very conservative evangelicals the debate has been definitively settled. ] (]) 14:35, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			|status = withdrawn
			|result = Probably being a bit too zealous here on the whole civility thing, so closing this before I feed the fire any more. (] me, I've become the very editor I swore to fight) ] (]) 03:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			=== ] TBAN for ] ===
			Uninvolved editor here. I don't know much about ] technicalities that brought this issue here. What I do know is that ] conduct on here is clearly over the line, and suggests an inability to follow ] that suggests an inability to participate at AfD and a poor understanding of our deletion policy. Hence, I propose a topic ban from AfD. A word of personal advice for the user in question. If you have discovered new sources for an article previously deleted, first ask for an article to be restored to your user page, then improve the article, and then submit it through AfC. ] (]) 17:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose'''. This would be for a grand total of '''three''' "incorrect" AFD !votes. That's it. Three. (] / ] / ]). Topic-banning an editor because there were three AFDs where they provided sources that were insufficient, whereas we have an editor at this discussion who was nominating potentially notable articles (and many notable articles) ''en masse'' without any search whatsoever, which included 50 AFDs in half as many minutes, is utterly ludicrous. This discussion should have been closed a long time ago with no action, or, if anything, a restriction on Bgsu98. ] (]) 18:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. While they have at times been obtuse in this ANI thread, they do not seem to have done any actual harm outside of it. I am opposed to the existence of a "thunderdome" area where people get summoned to do combat, yelled at by a dozen people for several days, and then banned if they happen to get mad during this.
	::::::Yes, it's been "settled" with perfect "unanimity", because all those saying different aren't even allowed at the table - such is the nature of achieving "unanimity" these days. ] /]/ 14:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:<b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose.''' Even I think this is unnecessary at this point. ] ] 21:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Oppose'''. The user is highly passionate about the subject. That’s great - and to be quite blunt, we should be encouraging that. The user identified a problematic behavior (rapid AfD nominations that did not appear, at first, to be BEFOREd properly). From what I’ve seen, those issues have been resolved - both by the user reported agreeing to slow down on their nominations and explain them better, as well as by the MC realizing that many of the coverages they’ve found are borderline ''at best'' for determining notability.
	:::::::People who hold that historical criticism was birthed in hell and continues to be a Satanic plot are generally not allowed at the discussion table establishing the consensus in historical criticism. As ] said, "If it does not walk like a duck, does not talk like a duck, and avoids ducks like the plague, there is little reason to assume its a duck. Or scientist, in this case." ] (]) 15:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:This thread got out of hand because people didn’t focus on the issue at hand. And I broadly agree with jpxg above - when rather than trying to refocus the thread people just pile on someone who made a good faith report, ''of course they’ll get a bit mad and make some mistakes that are borderline NPA/civility violations''. But ask yourself this - is recommending a BOOMERANG for a problem that’s resolved not inflaming the situation ''more''? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::*'''Oppose''' As @] said this discussion should have been closed a long time ago. @] has been very uncivil at times on this thread and others, particularly in their language and questioning of other editors' motives and abilities, but hopefully they will learn from what has been said during this discussion and will not repeat this behaviour. I was in favour of giving @] a chance and I do not want to be hypocritical by not doing so with MC too.
			::] (]) 22:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{Archive bottom}}
			== KirillMarasin promoting medical treatments and "conversion therapy" ==
	::::::::As far as orthodoxy on all Biblical controversies hereafter being a matter to be ascertained only by "scientists" - so, exactly how many of the competing hypotheses have got past the experimentation phase in this case? Are we using real "scientific method" to determine which scholars are correct / incorrect, or just the same ol' same ol' "appeal to authority"? ] /]/ 15:56, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop|status=CBANNED|1=KirillMarasin has been ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{user|KirillMarasin}}
			I think we have two related problems with KirillMarasin. First up, he promotes and seeks to legitimise the pseudo-medical practice of "]" (, , Yes, that really is a medical claim being sourced to Reddit!) and secondly he adds medical claims to other articles which are either unreferenced or which are improperly referenced to sites selling supplements (, , and ). Attempts by multiple editors to warn him have been unavailing and I read as both a personal attack and a highly offensive suggestion that I practice "conversion therapy" on myself. Beyond that, this is a clear and sustained case of ] and ]. --] (]) 02:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::Even if this view isn't unanimous, history is regarded as a science. Affirming biblical inerrancy as historical scholarship is beyond ludicrous. The mass of evidence that the Bible has errors (from minor copying mistakes to big theological contradictions) is simply too vast for biblical inerrancy to be considered true by mainstream scholars. Besides, scientists/scholars don't decide upon ''theological'' orthodoxy, since theological orthodoxy is in the eye of the beholder. So I do not say that Biblical inerrancy would be a problem theologically, I just say that history does not work that way. Misplaced Pages does not employ the scientific method, it is all the way for proper appeals to authority (i.e. reliable sources policy). ] (]) 16:27, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:I don't think I promoted anything though. I didn't say it was good or bad, I was trying to be neutral. ] (]) 15:28, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Even if my edits are not high-quality, the article on conversion therapy has a lot of gaslighting, saying time and time again there are no treatments, when the opposite is true. ] (]) 09:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV ] (]) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::What is RS? ] (]) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Good question! You were supposed to know that in order to edit Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It's short for "Reliable Sources". You can learn about it at ] @]. ] (]) 15:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thank you, I've already read it. ] (]) 15:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Not only are your edits not of high-quality, at least two of your sources are garbage, and you're edit warring at that article as well. You need to step away from that article.]] 10:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Why would you even consider 4Chan to be a legitimate source for anything, let alone a science/medicine-based topic? That, in of itself, is a major issue. ] (]) 11:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Just looking at the three ] edits mentioned by DanielRigal, makes a medical claim without citing any sources at all and cites reddit and 4chan for medical claims. Finally, cites a paper in the Journal of Neurosurgery for the claim that {{tq|some methods of conversion therapy were working}}. The paper in question in fact says that {{tq|while Heath claimed that the patient had a full recovery and engaged exclusively in heterosexual activities, other sources argued that the patient continued to have homosexual relationships}}. Any of these diffs on their own would be totally unacceptable. {{pb}}Additionally, a glance at ] shows that KirillMarasin not only added these claims once, but reinstated them after their removal was adequately explained. e.g. they add the "some methods of conversion therapy were working" claim, the addition is reverted with the edit summary explaining that the source does not support the addition, KirillMarasin reinserts the text with the edit summary {{tq|It doesn't need deleting, I'll try to edit it to better reflect the article.}} When somebody reverts an edit because it contradicts the cited source, you need to fix that error {{em|before}} reinstating it. ] (]) 10:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Would a ] on ] prevent further inappropriate editing? Note this is a ''question'', I'm not familiar with ] and it may very well not have any bearing or may be the wrong approach here. --] (]) 11:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.] (]) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I tested the treatments on myself before writing. ] (]) 15:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Anecdotal evidence does not belong in an encyclopedia. Only scientific evidence qualifies as a reliable source that can be quoted. ] (]) 15:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::] is not allowed on Misplaced Pages. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'd still like to ], even though I'm beginning to have my doubts. I think this is a CIR issue first and foremost, with a mixture of POV-pushing and lack of understanding of ], ] and ]. Since they are here, and reading this page, and haven't edited since they started following this conversation, I think {{re|KirillMarasin}} should read those policies first, before they attempt to edit again. If they continue with their current editing pattern, though, a ] would be entirely appropriate. &mdash; ] (]) 12:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The editor ] to ] in the past, before the most recent spate of unsourced or promotionally-sourced edits, so it does not seem to have had any positive effect. -- ] (]) 15:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Not all of the problem edits have been ]; the ones listed by the OP aa diffs 5 through 8 are on sexual health matters not under that GENSEX guideline. A more general medical topic ban, widely construed, may be more appropriate. -- ] (]) 14:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:], ]. I can assume good faith, as this editor presumably grew up in a culture where widespread homophobia is normalized (referring, of course, to 4chan), but these edits are repulsive. I would expect that an editor of 15 years would be aware of policies like ], let alone ]. Editors who like to tweak numbers and facts without citations can wreak a lot more disruption than just inserting insane nonsense on controversial articles, which is easily spotted and reversed. –] (] • ]) 15:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::"history is regarded as science." Really? Funny, what I learned in school was that there are '''differing views of history'''. That different countries have differing views of history. That different scientists in the different countries are paid by their governments to research different hypotheses. And I learned that true "science" mainly applies to things where the "scientific method" is of any use to establish conclusions, although it is true that "science" in some eastern European countries has more taken the route of "appeal to authority" on other matters as well. ] /]/ 16:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			::I tested the treatments on myself before writing. And why do you use strong language on my edits instead of trying to stay neutral? ] (]) 15:21, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::]. ] (]) 16:35, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Misplaced Pages does not publish ]. –] (] • ]) 17:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Wow. It's understandable that a newbie might believe that such obvious ] might be acceptable, but for someone with KM's tenure here to present "{{tq|I tested the treatments on myself}}" as a justification for adding something to '''any''' article, let alone one subject to ], is extremely concerning. ] (]) 18:08, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{user|KirillMarasin}} has been here for more than a decade. It's hard to believe that suddenly, he doesn't know that 4Chan isn't a usable source - and in a topic like this, too. Signs are pointing to NOTHERE. ] (]) 14:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm sorry for posting low-quality content here. I will adhere to the rules in the future. ] (]) 15:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I find that impossible to believe, given your tenure here and apparent ]. At this point I can only assume you are trolling. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think an indefinite block for ] is an appropriate remedy. ] (]) 20:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Having looked through this, all I can say is ''wow''. Even leaving aside the ''obvious'' problems already listed above, and with {{tqq|Have you tried this on yourself before making a comment? If not, then I don't have time to argue with you.}}, there's the odd fact that the editor was away for a time and then came back here to do ''this'', inserting what are or are indistinguishable from promotional links, and generally taking a hard turn from most previous editing, making me wonder if the account is ]. Suggesting an indefinite block because either it's that or it's very elaborate trolling. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:No ] the account is compromised, but that doesn't conclusively prove it isn't. --] (]) 20:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:While they've been relatively inactive for years, the only year since first becoming active that they have made no edits at all is 2022. They have been making psychiatry-related edits since at least 2018 (see e.g. addition of a treatment claim based on their admittedly original research) and their most recent music edit (previously their primary editing interest) was in . I guess it {{em|could}} be a compromised account but I think it's probably not ] (]) 22:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I have indefinitely blocked KirillMarasin for persistent addition of unsourced or poorly sourced content. By "poorly sourced", I mean shockingly bad sources. This editor's history is strange. The editor was moderately active in the video game topic area 12 to 14 years ago and then effectively disappeared. After their return in December, their sole focus has been spreading nonsense about sexuality and "conversion therapy". At this point, they are not competent to build the encyclopedia. ] (]) 20:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I've seen people offer established accounts for sale, maybe that's what happened here? ]&nbsp;] 21:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I find it more likely this is someone who fell into the "redpill" community and decided to come back to Misplaced Pages to ]. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:They have been somewhat active on ruwiki and actually got a warning over homophobia on their talk page in July 2023. See: ]. ] (]) 00:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I feel it unlikely anyone paid for this account, why would someone pay for an account then say such clueless stuff? There's also the fact the 2018 stuff seem similar enough. I don't know if the Russian editing could be a factor in why they're so confused. Are sourcing standards weaker or is the OR not outright forbidden on the Russian wikipedia? I'd hope no wikipedia allows Reddit let alone 4chan, the same with OR, for medical information but I could imagine some allowing at least Reddit along with some forms of OR for gaming related stuff. (I mean we don't consider simple plot summaries from OR.) In any case, I'm fairly sure this isn't the first editor we've had who was sort of okay while editing some stuff but who's editing fell apart when it was something they particularly cared about. ] (]) 03:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The contribution that got him the warning on ruwiki was not about adding content, but about removing content (regarding child adoption by gay couples) accompanied by a discriminatory comment towards LGBTQ+ people in the edit summary (translation of the comment: "removing disgusting content").
			*:::Generally speaking, they only have 196 edits on ruwiki versus 3,351 on enwiki, so I wouldn't expect that differences in sourcing standards on ruwiki could have any notable effect on his editing on enwiki.
			*:::I only brought up ruwiki to point out that he has been active there, while he seemed to have "disappeared" on enwiki. Meaning, the account might not be compromised, i.e. it's not an account that suddenly returned from wiki-retirement, but an account that probably was consistently active throughout the years, even if at low activity level, and the LGBTQ+ issue also doesn't seem to be an out-of-character new development. ] (]) 20:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: Community ban for KirillMarasin ===
			{{atop|status=Community banned|1=By the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, {{u|KirillMarasin}} is ]. The ban may be appealed no sooner than six months from this date. If the ban is successfully appealed, a ] on GENSEX and sexual health matters, broadly construed, shall remain in force. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			For seeming ] and ] issues, I proposed that KirillMarasin be community banned. ] (]) 20:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per nom. Also support a GENSEX TBAN. ] (]) 20:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			* (edit conflict) I propose a ''']''' on all editing, appealable no sooner than six months from now. I also propose a ''']''' on ] and on sexual health matters, broadly construed. That topic ban would be appealable no sooner than six months ''and'' 500 constructive article edits after the community ban was lifted. Comment: There are significant problems with this user's editing. These are deeply concerning given the length of time this account has been active. Claiming 4chan is a reasonable source to use, claiming personal experience is a reasonable source, etc. Before any unban, I'd expect to see a convincing argument from KirillMarasin that they understand what was wrong with their edits ''and'' with the sourcing of their edits. Frankly, this doesn't cover all the bases. There are other serious concerns here. But... it would be a start. --] (]) 20:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' as per Hemiauchenia's reasonings. ] (] - ]) 20:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per nom, using Reddit and 4chan as sources in this topic area is totally unacceptable, and then claiming they've tried it is unbelievable, honestly, I think we're being trolled here.]] 20:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Even now, I see no indication that he understands what the problems really are. I'm not sure about the question of trolling. It certainly had crossed my mind but, given that he appears to be Belarusian, it might be that he is merely be reproducing lies taught to him as facts in school. If so, I feel at least some sympathy for him but that doesn't change the outcome here. He has had enough warnings. You can't be citing Reddit and 4chan, especially for medical or medical adjacent subjects, and expect to remain an editor in good standing. --] (]) 20:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Even in Belarus I have a hard time believing anyone thinks tapeworms give you homosexuality which can then be cured by eating garlic. He’s either ''deep'' in the redpill conspiracy rabbit hole (and falling for a /pol/ shitpost) or a troll himself. ] (]) 18:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Note''' I have indefinitely blocked this editor. The community ban discussion should proceed. ] (]) 21:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support a community ban from en.wp with a requirement of a GENSEX tban if subsequently lifted.''' This is either incompetence, trolling or both. ] (]) 21:04, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' but endorse the block. At this point, the only difference between a community ban and the current block is how the editor can appeal. A block would be reviewed by an uninvolved admin, while a ban would be reviewed by the community. I support bans when I feel that the appeal shouldn't be reviewed by a single admin, but this case is pretty garden-variety and I see no need to involve the community in a review of any appeals. See the table at ] —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 21:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:No, this case is not "pretty garden-variety", it is absolutely appalling that an editor is using social media platforms as sources in this topic area, and dubiously claiming they have tried it on themselves. I am uncomfortable with a single admin reviewing any appeal, the community should have a say in this matter.]] 22:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yes, it is appalling. By "garden-variety", I meant the issue is simple to analyze and an unblock review would have clear criteria to be successful. I think of community bans when I see problem editors who admins have failed to block for some reason, or editors who have caused widespread disruption affecting many users and pages. On the other hand, if you are concerned about having a single admin review the appeal, then a community ban is quite appropriate. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 22:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Behavior is completely beyond the pail of acceptability. ] (]) 22:32, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Weak support''' I sort of agree with rsjaffe that this seems simple enough that I'm not afraid of leaving it for an admin to handle the unblock. I mean when an editor twice tells us they tested something on themselves, it's a clear sign the editor's understanding of even the basics of how we create Misplaced Pages even after a long time and 3000+ are so poor it's going to take a for them to get back. And that's being very generous and assuming they just didn't recognise the RS acronym rather than not even being aware of the term 'reliable source'. Which even being that generous they still didn't understand the concept putting aside OR given 4chan etc. However unlike rsjaffe I don't see a harm in a cban and given that this discussion was started before the indef, I feel it's fine to continue it as noted by the admin. ] (]) 03:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' (and I endorse Culln328's block as an administrator). To have returned after many years of absence solely to push conversion therapy pseudoscience using the least reliable sourcing imaginable clearly violates so many policies and guidelines that unblocking should require the confidence of the community. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 05:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' CBAN (and endorse indef) - promotion of fringe ideas and POVpushing like this has no place on wikipedia. The ] issues are the cherry on top. —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 06:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' Having read more of the discussion in the previous section, I agree, reluctantly, that a CBAN is the only way forward here. &mdash; ] (]) 10:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - Promoting conversion therapy, along with the RU wiki issues, tells me this person needs to be kept away from our community until they've had a substantial amount of growth. This isn't something any admin should be able to revoke on their own, the community needs to be involved before this person comes back. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::That's a red herring, I did not deny above that there are other views of history. East European scholarship is a red herring, too. Nothing of what you replied immediately above is germane to Ret.Prof's behavior. ] (]) 17:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' homophobia (implicit here, made explicit on ruwiki) and promotion of homophobic fringe nonsense. Use of 4chan, ] and Reddit as sources shows severe ] issues as well if it’s not outright trolling. ] (]) 18:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Response to the POV Railroad===
			{{abot}}
	The is made up of two admins, six user accounts and an undetermined number of alternate accounts. (See ]) It formed about 10 years ago and their stated purpose is to remove (ie anything Hebrew or Jewish from Christianity). The most up to date do not support their position. Nor does their definition of "fringe" line up with that of Misplaced Pages. They are in serious violation of ] and ]. See also
			{{abot}}
			== History of disruptive COI editing ==
	'''Issue'''<br>
	I raised a concern that the following as it was not properly sourced and explained edits at Misplaced Pages must be supported by reliable sources. I referred them to the first 15 pages of Throckmorton's the which give an excellent overview along the following sources.
	*
	*
	*
			I didn't wanted to go through this, but I'm done being patient. There appears to be a long history of disruptive COI editing by {{u|Armandogoa}} on his father's article ]. He usually edits this page after every few months or so, and seems to add unreferenced content as per his latest edit done on the page here . I had many of his edits reverted myself.
	I offered to provide further references if required. This would be no problem as every Biblical scholar is aware of the attestations to the early ] (ie Matthew ''"wrote his Gospel in Hebrew in Palestine"''). NOTE I did not revert the unsourced edit for I have voluntarily stepped back from editing this article last year because of the edit warring. This request on the talk page for a reliable source has given rise to the allegations that I am a time waster who is an incompetent editor who pushes fringe views. ''However there is much more to this 10 year old conflict than meets the eye.''
			I also did place a COI warning on his talk page over a year ago . But he seems to not understand it this way. His father is an active politician, and considering our ] policies, I think this editor should be blocked to prevent any other controversial or peacock material added in the future. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 07:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Abuse of this noticeboard'''
			:Hello, ],
	*It is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard for a ] to act as 1)Accuser, 2)Judge & 3) Executioner
			:You'd probably get more of a response if you provided diffs of edits of this "long history of disruptive COI editing" you are concerned about. I don't see the one edit you listed as egregious, anyone could proably find a source for a politician's promotion since they are public figures. It doesn't seem "controversial" or "peacock" to me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:00, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	*It is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard to use it for the intimidation of other editors.
			::Hi @], we both know that per ] we shouldn't edit articles we have ]. Be it in good or bad faith, I believe generally editors should avoid editing. They should leave that to third party editors like us. He could had make a request to have any material added to his father's article.
	*It is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard to use cherry pick edits from a good faith use's history and take these edits out of context in order to deceive or trick others into thinking he is a problem user.
			::As far as his editing history goes, he first started editing in 2022 see here . If you see his edits thereafter all of them are unsourced and most likely come under ]. He then edited again in 2023 see , by this time he was already warned. But he still tries to ignore the warning and continues with his editing. His last edit was in 2024 .
	*It is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard to use it as a tool for POV pushing See ], ] etc
			::I wouldn't had a problem if he did this additions to some other article other than his father's. Knowing the COI rules, I think he should be blocked. We never know when his editing behaviour might be a much problem for us in the near future. Especially considering the article's low value for editorial oversight. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 11:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	*It is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard to use cherry pick edits from a good faith use's ancient history in order to deceive or trick others into thinking he is a problem user. Generally speaking accusations should be restricted to edits within the .
			:::I'd say that's enough repeat violations that ] should be pblocked from the article, and only allowed to suggest edits on the Talk page. It's not enough for a site block. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	*It is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard to use it to facilitate ''false personal attacks'' against fellow editors.
			:<del>I think it's worth pointing out that this account has made only 39 edits over a period of more than 4 years, and the most recent one was nearly 3 months before this report was filed unless there are deleted edits I'm not privy to. COI or not (and I agree with the initial poster that there's a COI), I think ] is worth keeping in mind here. --] (]) 09:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</del> Rescinding. 39 edits isn't a lot, but 4 years is a long time. --] (]) 17:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Finally when an admin warns an editor about some behavior and the editor complies, it is an abuse of the Administrators' noticeboard to then use it as a basis for a ban.
	] reads, "If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Misplaced Pages, the community may engage in a discussion to site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban or editing restriction via a consensus of editors who are ''not involved'' in the underlying dispute."
			== Uncivil behavior ==
	'''Arbitration'''<br>
	Because the ] has abused this notice board in the past I request that the conflict be taken to arbitration and the ban against ], ], ] and ] be extended to include all remaining ''User Accounts'' from the Anti-Hebrew POV Railroad. I also request that present bans be strictly enforced.
			{{ping|Jasper_Deng}} has been continually bludgeoning a conversation about a page rename, casting unsupported aspersions, acting uncivilly, and newcomers (me).
	'''Re vague allegations against me'''<br>
			'''Teahouse'''
	During my break I asked a number of Bureaucrats and Administers to review my edit history to see if I had done anything to warrant being banned from Misplaced Pages. ''None'' of them could find any edits to justify the allegations of rudeness etc brought against me over the past year. ] looked into the situation and his response was ''“Your only "sin" has been to be calm and reasonable in the face of negativity." And “your edits based upon existing policy and guidelines are sound. Your stepping back from areas of drama is to be applauded.”'' ] went so far as to describe me as a "mild-mannered user". However the POV railroad has become so very powerful that being "innocent of any wrongdoing" does not make much difference. Many editors have let themselves be intimidated! (see my talk page) I will give the last word to ] who best summed up the situation:. ''"There are gangs of editors who protect themselves & their friends, & I don't know what can be done about them. I wish these groups didn't exist, but they do & there is little interest in controlling them."'' - ] (]) 03:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			During a lively discussion about a , it occurred to me that I might be able to improve this encyclopedia by starting a conversations that could '''POTENTIALLY''' lead to future guidance or policy regarding how to name natural disaster articles.
	:The Blackwell source on natural theology has been evaluated at ]. Otherwise, there is nothing anti-Semitic or anti-Judaizing about the sources used by the editors who challenge your views. The scholarly consensus is that the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Greek, and the contrary view does not even qualify for a minority view. The users who oppose such fringe view don't do that for ideological reasons. ] (]) 12:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Again that is not true. I never got a source to support your edit that the attestations did not exist! Also, the most basic right of every editor is to be able to a request a source to back up an edit. To respond to such a request with a T-Ban is soooooo wrong! - ] (]) 21:18, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::What isn't true? The early church writers got their information from Papias, and as you have yourself admitted, most reliable sources tell that Papias does not speak of our Gospel of Matthew, besides Ehrman tells that Papias is unreliable except for the statement that he knew people who knew people associated with the apostles. You should at least quote some sources saying that Matthew did write the Gospel of Matthew, I guess there are fundamentalists who make such claims. I do not say that such sources would be mainstream, but at least you would make clear where you got your information from. ] (]) 23:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			They followed me to the teahouse and:
	::::] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Thank you. It is easy to claim that a certain view is "fringe" when it does not agree with one's own hypothesis. My suggestion in this particular contentious issue and which might give the editors involved a greater propensity to be honest and impartial in their reporting, is for ] and ] to go before one of the Administrator heads (bureaucrats) with their respective arguments outlined on paper using reliable secondary sources and showing why the Gospel of Matthew was or wasn't first penned in the Hebrew or Aramaic tongue. Clearly, the man observing these scholarly arguments will come to the conclusion that neither view should be considered a "fringe view," but each view has its own merits on which to stand, based on solid arguments. The end result of which being that Misplaced Pages will then be left with no other choice but to take a neutral stand in this particular issue, in accordance with its own policy ], rather than mislead its readership into thinking that there is some consensus amongst scholars as to the original work of Matthew. ] (]) 23:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::I agree. I believe my references are strong and will stand the test of scholarly scrutiny. (See below) Cheers - ] (]) 17:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			*Bludgeoned me
	===Discussion===
			*casted aspersions {{tq| it is frowned upon to post about an ongoing decision making discussion elsewhere (unless it is to raise serious misconduct concerns) as it could be considered WP:CANVASSING, particularly when the incipient consensus is leaning against your position}} You'll note that my post in the teahouse was asking how to start a conversation about potential future policy improvements, not at all about the ongoing conversation. And even if it were, the practice is quite common on noticeboards, why would it be any different in the teahouse such that it would be WP:CANVASSING?
	<small>'''(Note: I refactored the multitude of level-3 headings in Ret.Prof's response above, because they made it difficult to tell that they were all part of a single comment. ] (]) 04:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC))'''</small>
	:No problem. You just made an old guy run and get his glasses. LOL Cheers ] (]) 04:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': I am very concerned that ] wants topics bans to be "extended to include all remaining ''User Accounts'' from the Anti-Hebrew POV Railroad" and mentions "two admins, six user accounts and an undetermined number of alternate accounts" without actually naming these users. These accusations should be properly documented, and the users in question named and notified of this discussion. ]] (]) 05:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::A good point. That is why I believe this case should be moved to arbitration. A lot of work and care is needed with serious accusations. One mistake and I could be banned as an incompetent time waster who is . I think we both know that this is not simply about my request for references to back up an . Cheers - ] (]) 05:55, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Let me add one thing that is very important. I am mainly concerned about Misplaced Pages's accuracy and I apologize if such a concern inadvertently offended others... as offending or conflict was never my intention. My intention was only to ensure accuracy and better the reputation of Misplaced Pages. Also editors now working in groups or as some call them gangs can grow to be a real problem for Misplaced Pages. Cheers - ] (]) 06:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			In the process they said {{tq|Don't overthink this}} to me.
	::::About that unsourced edit: it is common knowledge for everyone who has read anything recent in historical scholarship about the Gospel of Matthew. Besides at the ] discussion which I have previously mentioned here I had offered a list of sources which support that viewpoint. ] (]) 16:57, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			To which I replied {{tq|Please do not patronize me by suggesting I am overthinking this, and please don't WP:BLUDGEON me by responding to every comment I've made to someone else regarding this.}}
	*If RFAR is going to be filed, then this thread needs to be closed as it won't get anything done. (But I don't want to do that without further input.) - ] &#124; <sup>] and ]</sup> 07:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose any ]''' - Ret.Prof wants "arbitration" but that is asking a lot/too much of the half dozen exhausted editors who have been reverting these additions and fork article creations at roughly six-month intervals since 2010. A particular problem with a ] for other editors is the enormous number of bytes - often reposts of same material can be seen - which Ret.Prof posts. ] might be more appropriate, but all that is really needed is a simple small targeted topic ban - simply ''please stop adding lost Hebrew Matthew theories to New Testament articles''. ] theories can still be added in pages on any notable individual author BLPs/churches which advocate the theory but is ] for major articles on the New Testament which need to be objective and represent the consensus of academic scholarship. ] (]) 08:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	** Well, you can surely advise ArbCom of your opinion, but whether they start a RFAR or not (once someone actually submits a request) is not something that can be voted down by the peanut gallery. I think the Igniocrates(sp?) vs. John Carter ArbCom was on narrow behavioral issues. Most areas of Misplaced Pages suffer from having fewer editors than some years bacj; at least that's my subjective impression. That's probably a good argument (in the opposite direction, i.e.) for ''not'' letting POV pushers own any area because one or two of them seem to have a much greater impact now than they had before. ] (]) 08:57, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::] then I am mistaken, I thought there was a point at the request for arbitration where others could voice an opinion against arbitration as too much hassle. Is there no way to prevent repeat insertion of a ] (see definition) view into articles without the drama of "arbitration"? Isn't ] sufficient to stop these edits? ] (]) 12:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	Are you sure you want binding arbitration? The collateral damage is often serious. What other ] methods have the various editors attempted? --] (or Hrothulf) (]) 11:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::As said, there was a ] discussion about inserting fringe views. And editors tried to convince him (through using talk pages) to desist from inserting fringe views. The new research he means is mostly Dunn. While Dunn is not fringe, he does not represent the majority view either. And I doubt that Dunn goes so far as to say that the Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew or Aramaic. Other sources were simply misquoted to defend a view that the authors are known to have rejected it previously and no proof has been offered that they changed their mind. Also, quotations used by him were too selective and just quoting stuff at distance of some paragraphs or pages shows that those authors don't say what they are purported to say, therefore his synthesis fails ]. It's like people misquote Obama trying to show that he is a Socialist. ] (]) 11:48, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*They then me by again saying in part {{tq|I'm afraid you are overthinking it}}
	This paragraph is typical of the problem. Although it is all over the place, (See ]) it makes me sound really, really bad!
			* and made continued, unsupported, exaggerated claims of misconduct against me {{tq|Don't cast the WP:ASPERSION of "willful disrespect".}}
	* I do not believe Obama is a Socialist for the 401(k) of the average person is doing well. I am a Christian but I am not a "Waco bird"! See the box on the top of my talk page.
	* The statement (further above) about primary sources is also wrong and is not supported by my edit history. ] states ''"Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages."'' Also, it has been my policy to back up a primary source with a secondary source.
	* The statement above that Dunn "does not represent the majority view" is also wrong. Indeed it can be fairly said that Dunn is .
	And so on, and so, and so on. Trying to answer all the allegations leaves one chasing ones tail and looking guilty of being an incompetent time wasting editor who pushes fringe views and therefore should be banned. (See ] for more information.) The only fair way to deal with this problem this problem is at arbitration. - ] (]) 14:49, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			'''Talk page'''
	:::I was referring to your use of sources in order to show that Papias would be quite reliable (especially in respect to the Gospel of Matthew or whatever gospel he was referring to). Ehrman said that many scholars do not hold Papias to be very reliable. So, you were misquoting sources in order to boost Papias's reliability. Besides, judgment in respect to the relevance of what Eusebius and Jerome prove should be left to contemporary mainstream historians. You cannot cite some 1500 years old texts and expect them to pass for contemporary scholarship. ] (]) 15:01, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			Back on the talk page, they:
	::::Actually I don't think James Dunn has ever supported the idea of a Hebrew/Aramaic original behind Matthew - at least I can't find any such on making a quick search. When RetProf refers to Dunn it's in reference to Dunn's ideas on the oral tradition. RetProf's talk about "new research" sometimes means Dunn's work on oral tradition, but in this case he's talking about superscriptions to ancient mss of the Gospel of Matthew that say in essence that the Apostle Matthew wrote it. The superscriptions are real enough, but there's nothing "new" about scholarly knowledge of them. What RetProf is doing is ignoring the existing consensus, which is that the superscriptions aren't reliable. Note that what he calls "new scholarship" includes works from 1801!" ] (]) 12:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			* by replying to my vote
	:::::Dunn definitely does not say that the canonical Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew/Aramaic, he says explicitly that it was written in Greek (he even goes further, saying that Matthew only used Greek sources!), this is from his most recent book in 2013, strengthening his assertions from 2011 ''JP&G'': "It will not do, for example, to argue that Matthew and Luke drew their non-Markan material from an Aramaic source, each making ''his own'' translation into Greek. That in such a case they would have ended up with more or less identical Greek for their independent translations is almost impossible to envisage. Much the more obvious solution is either that Matthew copied Luke, or Luke copied Matthew, or the source they drew on was already in Greek. Here the case for a Q document already in Greek becomes very strong" —''Oral Gospel Tradition'' (Eerdmans, 2013), p. 295. The only "scholars" who say the sort of thing pushed here are those who teach at places like ] (where, for example, people who convert to Roman Catholicism are fired for not being Christian enough), although maybe someone could find an exception (no one has done that yet). --<font face="georgia">]&nbsp;</font><font face="georgia" size="1">(],&nbsp;])</font> 00:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			*
			*Bludgeoned another editor as well
			*Collapsed their bludgeoning with a close note that they agree (with themself?) that their comments were {{tq|more than necessary after taking a second look}}
			Just recently I noticed they
	*'''Comment''': A concern I have had about this long-running edit conflict is that not enough has been done to resolve the conduct issues. Rather than bring it to ANI in the past, Ret.Prof has simply been overwhelmed by a number of determined editors from WikiProject Christianity. Also, it's likely that the arbs would have rejected a RFAR as not ripe for arbitration. Now that this dispute has finally reached ANI, the community can weigh in with a recommendation. A targeted T-ban by the community assumes the problem is due to Ret.Prof alone and all the other parties have clean hands. I'll leave that to others to decide. I think the arbs would take the case if the community decides that is the best course of action. ] (]) 14:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	**'''Thanks for the kind words.''' And let me be the first to acknowledge I have much to learn. But neither am I the caricature described above! I too think the arbs would take this case if the community decides that it is the best course of action. Cheers - ] (]) 15:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			'''So I warned them to stop bludgeoning on their talk page'''
	:::Well, one's patience has limits. This user has been told lots of times that the Gospel of Matthew being originally written in Hebrew is a fringe idea (and he has himself recently quoted scholars who also imply this), but does not want to learn and still pushes such fringe views at {{diff|Talk:Gospel of Matthew|593039118|593038865}}. This edit is not even one month old, let alone over an year old. When users are confronted with people who just do not want to desist and ], they could get angry and lambaste the offender. It's comparable to a troll eliciting angry responses. ] (]) 15:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::"has been told" - love it. The reason it's generally hard to find actual sources in scholarship calling something "fringe" is exactly because, true scholarship is rather hesitant to be reckless in tossing that pejorative around. If wikipedia reflected anything like true scholarship, it would not do so either. ] /]/ 15:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			In the edit note, they:
	:::::Ret.Prof said he was a professor whose main area of expertise is biblical scholarship. Any such professor would be expected to distinguish by himself between fringe and mainstream and to know when to stop making baseless claims. To this I add that he has employed quotes from Ehrman in order to defend viewpoints which Ehrman overtly rejects. His allegations that a superscript would prove that Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew makes me wonder if he is capable of understanding how historical criticism works. If this isn't due to fideism, it is due to incompetence. ] (]) 17:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*Again tried to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor {{tq|As someone who is still rather inexperienced you should not be attempting to warn experienced editors like me.}}
	'''The Big Question:''' I think things have moved beyond the request I made in January at the talk page on the ] for further references re an . Some have wondered why I just don't quit Misplaced Pages. I think the answer has to do with when I was researching the "POV railroad". Back in 2005 ] (a new user who left Misplaced Pages that year) said "This is so wrong; I feel as though I have been violated by Misplaced Pages." It is still on her user page. I believe editors at Misplaced Pages should never be made to feel this way. I look at the way ] was treated his first month at Misplaced Pages. It was so very wrong! In my heart and soul I feel something must be done. I will probably be banned from Misplaced Pages, but quit...never! And I believe that if this goes to arbitration, the Arbs will be shocked and outraged and take strong action. Misplaced Pages should be a safe place for us all! - ] (]) 16:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Someone who does not agree with ], ], ], ] and ] is not welcome as a Misplaced Pages editor. This isn't a personal attack, it's just saying that Wikipedians aren't going to like such editor and such editors ain't going to like Wikipedians. This explains Davidbena's experience. ] (]) 16:35, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Again what you say is not true! ] was new to Misplaced Pages. He joined Misplaced Pages Aug 22 2013 and you brought proceedings to ban him at ANI Aug 27! I believe this is an abuse of this notice board. I also reviewed your comments about him. WOW If you were not protected by the ] you would have a T-Ban by now. - ] (]) 18:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			*Cast aspersions and threatened me with a block {{tq|Your comment here is grossly uncivil and if you ever comment like this again you will be the one considered for a block.}}
	::::He submitted some articles at ], but some independent editors (unrelated to your accusations of ]) rejected his attempts to create articles because of his overindulgence in using primary sources. And this was the very reason he was reported here. In fact, I have nothing against a newbie who did not know the rules, made a mistake, was told what the rules are, learned the rules and obeyed them and the same applies to his own case. I do not hate him, I just insisted that the policy on original research isn't optional. If he wants to edit Misplaced Pages he has to obey this policy, if he does not obey this policy he should not edit Misplaced Pages. I don't force him to leave, he has to make his own choice, but ]. ] (]) 01:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			:
	'''Fringe:This ANI is all over the place now! Once again I sound really really bad:'''
	*''"NPOV means keeping fringe material out of a major article like Gospel Matthew - none of your material has any place in this article. Yourself and previous advocates of "Original Matthew" theories have tried repeatedly to insert the theory into this article and it has been repeatedly removed. And yet here you are filling the Talk page with more advocacy for this theory. What will it take to stop this? Are you ever going to accept that this fringe theory does not deserve a prominent place in major New Testament articles on en.wp?"'' In ictu oculi (talk) 22:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
	*''"So we're back at this game are we? What has changed since the last time we reviewed the question at hand (see the archive for relevant discussion? Are we doing the old, look at all these wonderful WP:RS which exempts the material from the WP:FRINGE requirement again? That dog won't hunt and since we have been over this extensively before, rehashing old arguments is a variant of WP:ICANTHEARYOU, which is in turn a form of WP:DISRUPT, which leads us all traipsing over to WP:ANI to ask for a topic or article ban. OTOH, if there has been a shift in the scholarly consensus that now accepts the Hebrew hypothesis (of which I am unaware), then the article should incorporate the theory."'' Eusebeus (talk) 10:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
	*Comment re ]:''"], exactly. Unfortunately with ] semi-retired, ] retired, ] on leave, I'm not sure how we can do this. One thing is clear, RetProf's firm conviction that the WP:TRUTH is that the "real" Gospel of the "real" Matthew is lurking in Hebrew fragments is just not going to go away. This is more than adequately covered in the article on the fringe theory, a single link is sufficient, but will RetProf accept not making a case for the theory in Gospel of Matthew article itself?"'' In ictu oculi (talk) 02:57, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
	*''"So let me say this. Wasting editors time with this kind of cavilling nonsense is disruptive and uncivil. If you would like to craft a nice paragraph that notes how scholars have come to reject Papias' claims of a Hebrew original while mentioning that there is some scholarship that has tried to maintain the theory is fine. Statements like "Virtually every piece of external evidence we have from the first few centuries regarding the authorship of the Gospels concurs that Matthew's Gospel was first written in a Hebrew dialect" is, however, FRINGE-laden OR."''
	:''"Do we really need an RfC to determine that scholarly consensus rejects the idea of an original Hebrew Matthew gospel? No, because we can read. What we do need is a way to prevent disruptive editing from consuming the time of editors who, having committed to engage in good faith, are forced to take time to note that citing material that explicitly rejects the idea an editor is trying to promote, and having this advanced as a "shift in consensus", is nonsensical to the point of incomprehensibility.''
	:''In other words: you're being rude. So stop."'' Eusebeus (talk) 09:08, 3 August 2013 (UTC
	*More recently (see above) ''"Well, one's patience has limits. This user has been told lots of times that the Gospel of Matthew being originally written in Hebrew is a fringe idea (and he has himself recently quoted scholars who also imply this), but does not want to learn and still pushes such fringe views at . This edit is not even one month old, let alone over an year old. When users are confronted with people who just do not want to desist and do not seem to get the point even after it has been patiently and repeatedly explained to them, they could get angry and lambaste the offender. It's comparable to a troll eliciting angry responses."'' Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
	This bashing re fringe went on and on! It was both abusive and dishonest for it did not conform to ]. The ] was quite actually quite supportive
	of my position re fringe. I have found the discussion very helpful. I agreed with ] that a , as the question is one of WEIGHT, not FRINGE. (See , and ) Secondly, we I have come to the conclusion that Ehrman is a reliable source per ]. Indeed Ehrman is a leading source. Although it looked to me as though was not fringe, I have volontarily chosen not to bring up Papias or edit the Gospel of Matthew. (Note * I did not surrender my right to make comments on the talk page re the "attestations".) The POV Railroad saw this good faith gesture as a weakness and "Here I am". I now request that this be brought to arbitration.
			*Casting aspersions and threatening me with a block again {{tq|
	'''Consensus''' I have just read through all this verbiage. WOW!!! The consensus seems to be that even a dim witted old man has the right to 'waste' people's time by requesting a reliable source for an unsourced edit without fearing a T ban. As to my request for arbitration re the ] close but not quite there yet! - ] (]) 22:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			Posting that WP:SHOUTING on my talk page is grossly uncivil and unwarranted and will get you blocked the next time you do that.}}
			*And again attempted to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor {{tq|But you are in absolutely no position to attempt to enjoin me from further participation in that process. You do not understand the policies and guidelines you're trying to warn me about; don't pretend that you do (especially with respect to WP:OWN).}}
			*And again, cast more unsupported aspersions in an uncivil manner {{tq|Coming to my talk page unprompted and without the other user's involvement is crossing the line to you harassing me. Cut it out.}}
			This has been an upsetting experience for me. Perhaps I am too sensitive to edit on wikipedia.] (]) 12:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I've checked the first five results from the link you made you think that it wouldn't be fringe. The results are:
	{{quote|"We must concede," he wrote, "that the report that Mt was written by Matthew 'in the Hebrew language' is utterly false, however it may have arisen." W.G. Kümmel, ''Introduction to the New Testament'', rev. ed., trans. Howard Clark Kee (Nashville: Abingdon, 1975) 49, 120-21.|}}
			'''''Edit to add: it has been brought to my attention that posting on this board comes with the expectation that I am seeking a ban/punishment. I am not. I am simply seeking an end tothe behavior I described below.'''''
	{{quote|But Papias' statement involves more problems than it resolves. ... At any rate, the canonical text of Matthew is and always has been the Greek version. Our commentary proceeds on the assumption that the Gospel was composed in Greek. ... But no responsible scholar claims that we now have access to the original Hebrew of Matthew's Gospel.|}}
			'''''I posted here because suggests that conduct policy violations can only be posted here, or arbitration (unless it is edit warring). Further the WP:DRN states it is for content disputes only.'''''
	{{quote|It is questionable, however, whether Papias is to be interpreted in this way and, even if so, whether Papias can be trusted regarding this information. ... (1) our Greek Gospel of Matthew is not the translation of a Hebrew or Aramaic original;|}}
			'''''Thank you, and my apologies for any confusion my venue selection has caused.'''''
	{{quote|Thus even for the most of the more conservative scholarly commentators, while varying in their views of Matthean authorship or influence, acknowledge that the matter is uncertain (Carson 1984b: 19; France, 1985: 34; Blomberg 1992a: 43-44; McKnight 1992: 528). Likewise, some scholars who reject Matthean authorship are troubled by the antiquity of the Gospel titles and the tradition of authorship; Luz complains that too many scholars simply ignore these difficulties (1989: 94-95).|}}
			] (]) 00:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{quote|The fathers, from Papias to Eusebius, who perpetuated the old tradition regarding the Hebrew Gospel, themselves rest their assertion on tradition, i.e., on reports that they had heard. And none of these fathers, not even Papias himself, was able to name a single person who had seen &mdash; not to say handled &mdash; this alleged Hebrew Matthew. The reports of the fathers regarding a Hebrew "Gospel" must be considered as hearsay, unsupported by a tangible fact and contradicted by all the probabilities involved as well as by several uncontested facts.|}}
			:After leaving making this post, I noticed @] also left a comment ''about'' me, casting even more aspersions in a thread I started on @]'s talk page that had absolutely nothing to do with @]:
	::Quoted by ] (]) 23:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
			:{{tq|This user needs mentorship as they are flying too close to the sun. The comment I just removed from my talk page and the one I left them at User talk:Delectopierre#Stop suggests that I am not the most effective one to convey that to them. My participation in the RM isn't that unusual and I consider their comments highly condescending and, now, aggressive to the point that I will want to see them blocked if they do it again.}} ] (]) 12:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Both users are right: Jasper Deng when they say, "I am not the most effective one to convey that to them", and Delectopierre when saying, "Perhaps I am too sensitive". ] (]) 14:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] Can you help me understand what it is that I need conveyed to me?
			:::I did not chose to be this sensitive. Frankly it is because of things that happened to me as a child.
			:::It is not an enjoyable way to live my life, and I am actively working to improve my mental health on a daily basis. That said, it is who I am right now. I know this about myself, which is why when this all began I said to myself ''What can I work on related to this article, where I won't have to interact with Jasper?'' That's when they followed me to the teahouse. ] (]) 18:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:My impression, based on this brouhaha: you are easily offended, but at the same time keen to tell off others. Bad combination. While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page, but at the same time tacks unrelated complaints about you onto conversations not involving him. Bad combination. From the unassailable heights of my own moral perfection, I suggest you both simmer down and get back to editing. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 14:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq| get back to editing }}
			::I attempted to do so, by no longer focusing my efforts the article, but rather discussion of future policy/guidance. Jasper followed me there and repeated language that I ''specifically'' asked them not to, and accused me of canvassing, among other things.
			::And to be clear, as I stated above, I am ] who repeatedly asked Jasper to stop bludgeoning {{tq|So you continue. Very collaborative of you. "Vote my vote, or be harassed."}} ] (]) 18:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Just want to add one more thing: {{tq|While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page}} is posting one warning on a talk page haranguing? Whether Jasper's behavior is a policy violation or not, in good faith I believe it to be, so I posted on his talk page. I'm genuinely asking: I thought that's what I'm supposed to do to try to resolve disputes, but is your guidance that it's haranguing to do so? ] (]) 23:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:These kinds of interactions are not uncommon here (this is the internet, after all) and I suggest you two adopt a voluntary IBan policy and give each other a wide berth. I wouldn't be surprised if every editor on this project has other editors that get under their skin and most of us handle it by choosing not to interact with them. Yes, a therapist would advise against pure avoidance but this project functions, in great part, because our editors avoid others who get on their last nerve. I know that this isn't the slap down punishment that you seem to be seeking but if every editor quit because another editor cast aspersions, we wouldn't have any editors left. Civility is a goal to aspire to but it's not always embodied on this project.
			:I have invited Jasper Deng to participate here and I'm hoping we can get to the point where you two can simply disengage with each other. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:09, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::thank you for your reply. I am not seeking a slap down, or punishment. I would like the behaviors to stop.
			::could you clarify what you mean that civility is a goal to aspire to? my reading of the policies is that civilly is a policy, not a goal. If that’s not the case, then I’ll need to reevaluate my participation. ] (]) 19:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I am involved here as a participant in the naming discussion. Also this disagreement among editors has spilled over to my talk page. Civility is not always a black or white matter and there are many shades of gray, as reading all of ] shows. A relevant passage is {{tpq|Differences of opinion are inevitable in a collaborative project. When discussing these differences, some editors can seem unnecessarily harsh, while simply trying to be forthright. Other editors may seem oversensitive when their views are challenged.}} I think that dynamic is at play here between these two editors. The disagreements concern the current wildfire catastrophe in the Los Angeles area and it is obvious that the emotions of many Californians and wildfire editors are raw, myself included. Some of us are better at masking that than others. I think that it would be wise for these two editors to steer clear of each other, and for all editors working on this literally hot topic area to check themselves and to avoid bludgeoning, being pedantic and being snide with one another. In my view, formal complaints alleging incivility are best limited to instances when the incivility is obvious to uninvolved editors. ] (]) 22:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Thanks for chiming in. A few things:
			::::*{{tq|In my view, formal complaints alleging incivility}}
			:::::*I'm unsure of how else to get the behavior to stop, and I am unsure of what rises to the level of a post here or not. Are there guidelines/examples I can look at?
			::::::This is the second time now that I have experienced -- what to me appeared to be a black and white policy violation -- only to be told essentially 'oh that doesn't rise to the level.' I ''think'' I'm intelligent enough to understand policies, and it is only behavioral policy that I have experienced to have some secret code that I can't seem understand. Other policy seems to be applied directly by the letter of the policy. I don't know what else to do. Like I said, I know I am a sensitive person, but shouldn't there be a place on wikipedia for sensitive people too? It's helpful for me to know what the rules are, and I thought I did.
			::::*{{tq|limited to instances when the incivility is obvious to uninvolved editors}}
			::::::*Just to give you insight into my thought process: I first posted in teahouse about a policy conversation so that I could edit without interacting with Jasper. I tried to put myself in an area where I wouldn't need to interact with them. They followed me there.
			::::::*Next, when an experienced editor appeared to agree with me that ] I felt that was a policy violation. But I did not make a post and decided to let it go, so long as the debate continued to evolve unimpeded.
			:::::::I saw what appeared to be bludgeoning/tendentious editing again, after both an experienced editor and I told Jasper to cut it out on the talk page and in the teahouse. I see now that it wasn't great judgement of mine to re-invovle myself by warning Jasper, and I will try to think better about that in the future -- and not edit so late at night when I'm tired.
			:::::::*However it was only ''after'' that experienced editor also told them to cut it out, AND I saw what -- to me -- appeared to be bludgeoning/tendentious editing, that I tried to warn them on their talk page. They of course didn't reply on their talk page, but deleted my post, and posted on my talk page instead saying that it was improper of me to post on their talk page. I saw that as Jasper trying to intimidate me on my ''own'' talk page. Essentially saying 'you don't have rights' or 'the policies don't apply to me, newb.' But isn't the process that when an editor is having difficulty with someone, they are meant to post on that editors talk page to discuss it? By deleting my post and saying they will get me banned if I post on their talk page again, that because I'm new I don't have to right to do so, I felt they were trying to intimidate me, and I '''experienced''' that as cyberbullying. (To be clear: I am not making an objective judgement, nor am I pointing to a WP Policy, as to my knowledge, there is no policy that specifically discusses cyberbullying. Just stating my experience.)
			::::::::But it was my experience, it seemed to be against policy, and I wanted the behavior to stop.
			:::::::*I am unsure of how else to get this type of behavior to stop, especially after they followed me to the teahouse and I told them stop, but they said essentially 'nah I'm gonna keep doing it.'
			::::::::Where can I go to discuss wildfires that they won't follow me? This is an important topic to me, along with millions of others. I believe you live in CA - I do too.
			::::::::All that said, at any point Jasper could ''also'' have stopped. ]. But that is not what occurred.
			::::*Lastly I'll say this: {{tq|The disagreements concern the current wildfire catastrophe}}
			:::::*Yes, that is how it started. But I do '''not''' have concerns about rules being applied incorrectly when it comes to content. I see a lively discussion. I may not agree with the majority there - that's fine! Good, even. But that doesn't mean I'm okay with other editors controlling the process, nor acting uncivilly towards me.
			::::*My apologies for the verbosity. I think it would be helpful, if anyone experienced is willing, to let me know where in my thought process I went astray in addition to the place I already pointed out that I could have exercised better judgement. It would also be helpful if anyone experienced could point me to a way to get this type of behavior to stop, as well as somewhere I can see what type of behavior violates policy and and should be posted here, and what type of behavior does not.
			::::] (]) 23:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::A suggestion, which I hope is taken as well-intentioned and constructive: if your posts on other fora are as long-winded as the above that may frustrate other editors. Suggest aiming for greater conciseness. ] (]) 23:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Yes I understand and mentioned that myself. I am confused about where I can get help stopping upsetting behavior, and because of the reception I got, am unsure of what to do other than offer my thought process so that I can better understand what I can do better in the future. ] (]) 00:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|This is the second time now that I have experienced -- what to me appeared to be a black and white policy violation -- only to be told essentially 'oh that doesn't rise to the level}}
			:::::As the person who was brought here less than two weeks ago for what was the first instance, I may not be the best person to reply but I wanted to give advice on this {{tq|Like I said, I know I am a sensitive person, but shouldn't there be a place on wikipedia for sensitive people too?}}
			:::::It is easy to get emotionally involved in articles and get down the rabbit hole of being too wrapped up in policies. I understand your stance in this instance and understand Jaspers as well, but sometimes it is easier just to disengage with editors rather than being 'right' or getting the last word. And it is also sometimes advisable to take a ] if you feel you are too involved or it is affecting your mental health (It is one of the templates on that page, as is feeling discouraged). Literally no one would fault you for that. Best of luck to you.
			:::::] (]) 01:09, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''tl;dr: my experience with Jasper is part of a clear pattern of behavior.'''
			:As I mentioned, I posted here because I wanted the behavior to stop, so I do not do any sort of deep dive on Jasper's page or behavior. However I saw ] by @], and I wanted to look at it. It wasn't in the archive on Jasper's talk page (or at least I couldn't find it there, not sure if I searched correctly). So I took a look at his talk page history. It quickly became clear that some of the things I experienced from Jasper are clearly part of a larger pattern of behavior. I didn't want to spend too long on this, so there may be more behavior there, and to be clear, this is only from looking at the edit history on his talk page:
			:<br>
			:: 1. He has (judging by other's comments on Jaspers talk page) a pattern of behavior that upsets others. After this occurs, other editors will leave a message on his talk page, and he will not only ''not'' engage in a conversation with them, he will remove the comment (rather than allowing it to get archived) with either an antagonistic or very generic edit summary.
			:<br>
			:: 2. Jasper has a pattern -- again based on his comments -- of taking personal offense to people he has disagreements with leaving messages on his talk page to try to discuss the issue. In some instances, it appears as though this has been followed by immediate messages on ''their'' talk pages, indicating (to me) that it is only his talk page where issues cannot be discussed.
			:<br>
			:: 3. In these instances, some of Jasper's edit summaries have the effect of silencing other wikipedians who, in good faith, attempted to discuss issues with him on his talk page. As we all know, one cannot respond to an edit summary in the same venue, leading the editor with two options:
			::: a. Take the time to compile their original comments, diffs, Jasper's edit summaries, etc. and finding a new venue for the discussion, where Jasper may or may not participate.
			::: b. Make a new post on Jasper's talk page, despite him telling them not to, which gives Jasper ammunition tat the other editor did something wrong.
			:<br>
			:: 4. Whether on purpose, or as an unintended consequence of this behavior, this has created an appearance -- on the surface -- that Jasper doesn't cause any problems with other editors on wikipedia. Based on the following quotes, and from my experience, this is not the case.
			:<br>
			:::1. @]
			:::{{tq|Gaslighting}}
			:::{{tq|I recommend not making comments telling someone "no, you just didn't read my comment properly" in a condescending fashion}}
			:::{{tq|And, by the way, stop accusing now three users of edit-warring when you are the only one making hasty reverts}} ]
			:<br>
			:::2. @]
			:::{{tq|I request that you link that discussion, especially since you are bashing me over the head with it and yet you have failed to actually provide a link to this discussion}}
			::::Jasper's edit summary in removing that comment {{tq|Request for discussion: proof was provided at AN3, please keep discussion centralized. You really ought to look at your *own* conduct before you cast aspersions.}}
			:::{{tq|but I do not appreciate being called a disruptive editor, ESPECIALLY not in a closing message meant to be neutrally worded}} ]
			:::{{tq|But, this feels like a biased closure occurred, and after all the recent heat at AN/I about neutrally worded things (and no canvassing), this might warrant a message an AN/I}} ]
			:<br>
			:::3. @]
			:::{{tq|First of all, I think it is probably improper of you to issue a warning as an administrator with regard to a dispute in which you yourself are involved, and furthermore to threaten to block the user with whom you disagree. That ought to be done by a third party.}}
			:::{{tq|I am so sorry that you are not interested. The thing is, though, that you must be. I think you reverted the above just because you wanted to evade those first two points more than anything. }}
			:::{{tq|I am also not too sure that you are not violating WP:SOAP — but perhaps that's debatable. You have furthermore done nothing to make me think better of referring the matter of your behaviour to another administrator.}} ]
			:<br>
			:::4. @]
			:::{{tq|It seems like you have some WP:BATTLEGROUND inclinations. }}
			:<br>
			:::5. @]
			:::{{tq|Per WP:TR; I feel as though you should WP:ASG and be careful not to misinterpret situations with which you aren't involved}}
			:<br>
			:::6. @]
			:::{{tq|I have enjoyed contributing here and do not wish to lose the privilege of doing so}} ]
			::::Jasper's edit summary in removing that from his page {{tq|you clearly didn’t read my edit notice which says to keep discussion on your talk page}}
			:I am unsure of where to go from here, or what to do about this. It is upsetting to me to see someone who has more privileges than an average wikipedian behave this way. Frankly, based on the reception I got to my post, I'm not even sure if I should be adding this to my post, but again: I cannot find any sort of documentation about where to put these findings otherwise. If there is a better venue/forum, please let me know.
			:<br>
			:Also, this is in no way comprehensive, and based ''solely'' on Jasper's edit summaries/diffs from his talk page. It appears as though this behavior goes back a long time, but I have not done a deep dive to see whether it is just his talk page/edit summaries, or other behavior, too.
			:Tagging those who have participated/are involved in the conversation so far, as I'm unsure if they will be notified of my comment: @] @] @] @] @] @] @] @] ] (]) 22:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::'''Let. It. Go.''' Both of your behaviours have been suboptimal, but below the threshold for anyone to do anything about it in an official capacity. Very bluntly now: if you are truly unable to stop obsessing about this, then yes, Misplaced Pages is the wrong venue for you to participate in. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 07:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			The only things I'm going to say are:
			* Delectopierre is incorrect that I'm casting an aspersion because their included a boldened, underlined, ''and'' all caps "third". Even here they both bolden and all caps "potentially". This is as ] as it gets. Their overall tone is, as I said on Cullen's talk page, incredibly aggressive and condescending.
			* As stated on Delectopierre's talk page, I already voluntarily disengaged from interactions ''with them'' after Alex rightly called me out for the now-hatted back and forth.
			* However that does not enjoin me from replying to ''one'' other oppose out of the two or three others that were received in the intervening time frame and,
			* Therefore, Delectopierre's comment on my talk page and bringing this here is unnecessary escalation, particularly the former, and,
			* Consequently, I do not take back the comment I left Delectopierre on their talk page; as many would agree here, it takes two to disengage and that comment on my talk page was a gross slap in the face in view of my own attempt to disengage.
			* I remain committed to that disengagement but not to the effect of recusing myself from the consensus forming process on the talk page. I don't own the discussion but it doesn't mean I can't still participate and comment in it.
			* I also still am frustrated with Delectopierre for attempting to apply policies and guidelines they do not actually have a proficient understanding of ''in a way such that they imply or claim otherwise'', such as ] and ], or even ] as demonstrated right here. That's no longer my problem as long as they do not do something like that talk page comment again.
			* I apologize for the back and forth with Alex; however, I do not apologize to Delectopierre since they did not respect my own decision to not engage with them and continue to be condescending in this thread.--] ] 00:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	::If you are going to quote me out of context, please inform me of it. I was asking a question in the diff because I am not informed on these issues. I was not asserting there was no fringe element. ] (]) 10:25, 7 February 2014 (UTC)		::I apologize for how my comment on your talk page came across. That was not my intention. I thought I was following the suggested protocol. ] (]) 01:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have more to say but for now I will accept that apology. Whether I'll give my own is going to have to wait. At this point I'll leave that part up to other editors.--] ] 01:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			I knew it would come here eventually, so here's a discussion I always thought stood out on their talk page: : A user came to their talk page with concerns about a bad revert, and to that they responded with "That's not my problem. You should look at the totality of your edit". "That's not my problem" is an incredibly uncivil way to respond to a genuine question, period. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 01:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{ping|EF5}} Kindly, and bluntly, your participation here is not helpful. The topic at hand is the conflict between myself and Delectopierre. --] ] 01:15, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Anyone can comment on an ANI report, and I'm giving what I think is an appropriate example of uncivil behavior. Someone uninvolved can remove my above comment if they think it's irrelevant to the discussion. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 01:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Given the inability or unwillingness of either party to voluntarily ], perhaps a two way interaction ban is necessary. ] (]) 02:37, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I offered to and did, except I thought they should know I accepted their apology. How does that suggest an IBAN is needed?--] ] 02:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Sorry, where did you do so prior to your comment on my talk page? I don't recall that happening, although I could be mistaken. That said, I am amenable to that as an option. How does that work if we are both working on an article/in a similar space? I'm thinking specifically of wildfires.
			:::::] (]) 02:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Next step: mediation, arbitration, or what?===
			::::::I didn't explicitly say it. After I made no more replies to you or Alex and kept to it, and my comment thus said I "quietly" did so. Since I perceive a need to answer questions, I recommend you do not continue to pose them. I don't want to engage in this conversation any longer than you do, and this will be my very last reply to you for any reason.--] ] 03:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	*''(Introduced a new subsubsection to try to focus attention on getting an outcome: Just to keep minds concentrated, ] says he wants arbitration. ] (]) 23:56, 3 February 2014 (UTC))
			:::::::1. It's not an olive branch to make an edit with a antagonizing comment.
			:::::::2. 4ish hours after the , you followed me to a user talk page to in a conversation you were not at all involved in. That's neither an olive branch, nor voluntary disengagement. ] (]) 03:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Given this engagement, I think an enforced IBAN is necessary. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Sure, I'm amenable to that. How do I find out the answers to the question I asked ? ] (]) 20:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::You got an answer. If you don't like it, there's nothing we can do about that. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Huh? I said I'm amenable to the IBAN and asked how an IBAN works when we may both be editing in the same topic area and/or on the same articles. I have yet to see any answers.
			:::::::::::I'm new so I'm trying to learn and ensure I follow the rules. I feel that the tone of your reply wasn't appropriate to someone trying to learn and it didn't assume good faith. ] (]) 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	I ''haven't'' read every single comment but from past familiarity with this dispute, this seems like a content dispute, about reliable sources and interpretation of sources. This isn't a disciplinary matter that should involve the big admin stick. It is complex, involves a variety of editors and viewpoints, it should head to mediation (preferably) or arbitration, not ANI.
			::::::::::::See ] for answers. Remember that we are all volunteers, so may not have time to answer questions where you can easily read the answer yourself. ] (]) 08:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::You asked two questions above and were not clear what "answer" you were wanting beyond what Jasper gave you. Phil filled in the link to IBAN, and you got your answer from Jasper regarding your other question. Next time, you may just want to state the question you need further answers to, rather than link to a previous discussion & expect us to figure it out. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Unattributed machine translations by Loukus999 ==
	Bottom line: I don't see "blockable" behavior here and most actions coming out of ANI cases result in blocks, editing restrictions or are a stalemate with no consensus. The charges brought up against ] by ] are layered and complex and I don't think the blunt tools of administrators is the best solution for this impasse. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 03:24, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Loukus999 pblocked from articlespace. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|Loukus999}}
			Despite claiming to be a native English speaker on their user page, ] has been using a machine translator to create multiple articles for the past year and a bit. They have been warned multiple times by multiple editors on their talk page to attribute their machine translations, which are often of poor quality. They have also been warned not to recreate deleted articles, again with the aid of a machine translator. They have never communicated with other editors on any of the issues brought up, and I know this because , and it was .
			I ] prior that after 2,000+ edits to the mainspace, zero communication with other editors and repeatedly violating commonly understood policies was unacceptable, and I would take it to the noticeboard if these two things were to repeat, and so I now have done just that. Loukus999 recently created ], in a process which was so poorly done that ref tags have been left broken and there is a sentence proclaiming that "The full algorithm is available", followed by a citation to the bot / script that they presumably used.
	:I agree. So that means mediation I guess, either informal or formal. Maybe I should take the initiative, since RetProf began by objecting to a specific reversion I made of one of his edits. Before I do, any other views? (If you agree with the idea of mediation, do you tink it shld be formal or informal?) ] (]) 03:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			Loukus999 has not been using translators / bots / scripts responsibly on the English Misplaced Pages, and has refused to communicate after ample requests and warnings from other editors. <big>]]</big> 00:22, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Looking for venues to carry this forward, came across the ]. It's apparently for deciding on questions of due weight, which is what I personally think is at stake here. The step after that is formal mediation: ]. This involves a formal committee with binding results, and is the ''last'' stage of content dispute resolution, when all else fails - so I think the time for this has not yet come. If there aren't any persuasive arguments to the contrary by tomorrow my time (AEST), I'll start a mediation process. That gives RetProf in particular time to respond here. ] (]) 04:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			:I happen to be very interested in ] and I've got to say that ] is a shockingly bad article. ] (]) 02:48, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Well, it's a direct translation of one of the ceb.wiki machine generated articles. ] (]) 04:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Looks like the most recent creation before that is ], a translation of ] that is still unattributed. ] (]) 05:06, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:], it would help if you listed some articles you are concerned about so other editors don't have to go searching for them. You're likely to get a better response from editors who browse ANI if you spell everything out and provide links. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::To be clear, I am not highlighting an issue with one or a few of Loukus999's articles, I am highlighting an issue with ''all'' their articles. They didn't just start doing poorly done translations without attribution; that's all they've been doing.{{parabr}}I don't have to make a list either because Loukus999 already lists their "completed" and intended translation projects on their user page. Take for example, the first two articles they created on the list. ] was obviously machine translated from ], with the exact same content but accompanied by grammatical errors and awkward phrasing in English. Same thing with ], translated from ]. The problem is not only that Loukus999 doesn't attribute their translations, they also:
			::* Don't clean up their article afterwards, leaving it with grammatical mistakes, broken refs, and broken templates.
			::* Create translated articles without regard for past deletion discussions.
			::* Have not communicated with any editors despite several warnings over the past year.
			::So now there's about that are of poor quality, essentially machine translated without a second thought, and intended or otherwise, Loukus999 has shown that they do not care about site policy nor article quality by ignoring their talk page. <big>]]</big> 05:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If you check ], every thread is a message, automatically or manually written, left by editors informing Loukus999 of their editing issues and problems with their articles. They've had a full year since the first message to respond or acknowledge anything, but instead they just continue their problematic editing as nobody had yet brought it up seriously. <big>]]</big> 05:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::They have no edits in user talk and just one in article talk. I think they need a block for non-communication. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Because Loukus999 has been consistently creating poor quality translations despite multiple warnings, I have indefintely blocked the editor from editing article space. They can create policy compliant, properly referenced draft translations and submit them to the Articles for Creation process. Communication with their fellow editors is required, as is producing high quality, policy compliant work. ] (]) 19:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Good block. When I see an editor translating from Cebuano, Spanish, Italian, and Russian (to name the examples listed above) but so obviously lacking in fluency in English, it makes me extremely skeptical that they are doing anything more than blind machine translation, not something we want to have here. —] (]) 00:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ] and copyright unblocks ==
	::<small>All this time, and I never realised you were in my time zone... ]] (]) 05:37, 4 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
			{{atop|1= This spirited discussion has been open for three days. Feedback has been given by various editors to Beeblebrox about their concerns regarding his copyright unblocks. A sanction has been proposed and consensus is against it (see below closure). We may be at, or past, the point where more heat than light is generated. I humbly suggest that we all move on (with Beeblebrox taking on the feedback), and if new concerns of new actions arise, start a new discussion. {{nac}} '''] (] / ])''' 13:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:::<small> Us old guys sleep all the time. Keeps us from being Incompetent ! - ] (]) 13:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
			{{u|Beeblebrox}} does not appear to appreciate that blocks for good-faith copyright violations cannot be sorted out with an apology and some ], is not doing the basic due diligence required when dealing with these unblocks, and does not respond well to attempts by others to explain. Two recent examples:
			* ], blocked by {{u|DanCherek}} and follow-up by me on that talk page and at ]
			* ] and follow-up at ] by {{u|Justlettersandnumbers}}
			In neither case was the blocking admin consulted. In the latter example, the blocking admin asked him to revert his unblock; Beeblebrox declined. In the former example, I had earlier responded to the unblock request. The blocked editor was still editing on simple-wiki, so their contributions could easily be checked to see if they understood copyright; I said so, and was rebuffed (with bonus {{tq|I have been an admin a ''lot'' longer than you}}, as though length of adminship tenure grants an exception from due diligence). In both cases, the editor was soon reblocked (by {{u|Izno}}). It is also worth noting that both of these unblock requests involved AI chatbots, which ought to be an especially red flag when we're dealing with editors blocked for copyright problems.
			This is extremely bad practice, and it needs to stop. -- ] (]) 07:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Leave it to Liz''' to come to our rescue. I think what she says makes a lot of sense. I would prefer formal mediation for three reasons:
	#This dispute has been going on for a very long time
	#Besides this notice board, our dispute has gone to several other notice boards (See excerpt from Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard above)
	#The result shall be binding and will bring this to an end.
	Finally I would prefer LIZ to oversee the start of the mediation process. No offense to PiCo but she is neutral. She also has a great intellect and a kind heart! - ] (]) 14:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			: I think Beeblebrox should make a habit of speaking to the blocking admin before unblocking. He seems to be alone in not doing this, and it is part of ] policy. ] (]) 07:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': The ] brought out some important points. One of them was a made by {{u|Til Eulenspiegel}} to create a new article on the ] of scholarship on the Gospel of Matthew. Such an article would be a valuable addition to the encyclopedia, and it might satisfy both sides of the dispute. With respect to formal mediation, I think it's a great idea, and I suggest contacting {{u|Keilana}} to act as the mediator. She is one of the most accomplished mediators we have here, and if anyone can mediate this complex dispute, it is her. ] (]) 18:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Yeah. Per the blocking policy ] and unblock guidelines ].
	::Formal mediation is preferable to informal mediation in a complex case like this one because it is privileged communication. Therefore, it can't be used as a ] to pile up "points" that can be used later as evidence in arbitration. While formal mediation is technically non-binding, every participant is supposed to make a good-faith commitment to achieve a result as though it were binding. If it becomes obvious to the mediator that one or more of the parties are unable to do that, the mediator will simply stop the process. Declaring that one of the parties is incapable of or unwilling to accept a mediated solution before even trying is a statement of bad faith. ] (]) 19:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Beeblebrox has said that they {{tq|do not agree with or adhere to the idea that asking the blocking admin should be a ''de facto'' part of reviewing unblock requests}}, but until the consensus has changed, unblocking users without consulting the blocking admin would be violating policy.
			::And I personally believe that consulting the blocking admin before unblocking as a requirement is a good idea, so hopefully Beeblebrox will not repeat this again. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x]</span>→∞ (]) 09:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It is not a policy violation, policy states {{tq|administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter.}} Should avoid is not the same as shall not. The other is a guideline not a policy. ] (]) 01:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It's not always necessary to consult the blocking admin, per the wording of the policy, but it should be done when the unblock might be controversial. Beeblebrox currently doesn't seem to have a good sense of which blocks might be controversial to lift without consultation. ] (] &#124; ]) 02:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Controversy is also often in the eye of the beholder. If one is looking for controversy, one can usually find it quite easily. Especially when policy leaves room for discretion (which it probably should in many cases). ]] 19:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I credit Beeblebrox with putting their money where their mouth is and attempting to fix their perceived issues with blocking and the process, but I do think the blocking admin should in most cases be consulted(with some exceptions like but not limited to straight username blocks or where the blocking admin invites unblocking). ] (]) 12:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I agree that Beeb's practice in this matter is both counter to policy and intuition. Why would an unblocking admin not want to ask the blocking admin something along the lines of, "Hey, is there anything I should know when considering unblocking this user?" Consulting simply means asking about the case to have more information; it does not mean that the unblocking admin must act in accordance with the blocking admin's wishes. - ] ] 13:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Comment''' I object to the statement that this is a content dispute. It is not. One determined editor who consistently appears promoting the same discredited viewpoint is not engaged in a content dispute. One determined editor who uses walls of text to obfuscate and prevaricate is not a content dispute. One determined editor who engages repeatedly in ICANTHEARTHAT and similar kinds of behaviour when presented with overwhelming evidence to refute his contentions and whose capacity for passive-aggressive querulousness is apparently tireless is not a content dispute. This is disruptive editing of the kind that makes it difficult for other editors to continue. Ret. Prof. has been repeatedly engaged in good faith on the questions he has raised. You are not allowed to game the system by simply stating the same thing over and over again every six months by gussying it up as a content dispute. It is not. Repeated patterns of disruptive behaviour are exhausting for other editors and detrimental to the aims of the project. This is clearly blockable behaviour and I suggest that as such, a topic ban with sanctions be enacted here at AN/I as a result. ] (]) 15:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Can we get that explicitly written into policy then? Because it being a consultation to see if information is missing makes perfect sense, but how the process has actually worked in practice for years (and in places such as ] requests) is not as an informational purpose, but instead to get "permission" from the blocking admin and, by their forbearance and mercy, will the action be allowed. But if the original admin disagrees, even without there being any extra information to back up and justify that stance, then it shall not be done. Because the original admin's actions are law and cannot be disputed and how dare you even try. ]]<sup>]</sup> 19:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:This simply is not true. Please look at:
			:::I agree it should be written into policy. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	# Excerpt from Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard above
			::::In my perspective, the ] is fairly clear that the blocking admin should be ''consulted'', but it doesn't state that administrators need permission from the blocking admin to unblock. ] (]) 03:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	# My edit history
	# The ]
	:But if you want to take this to arbitration, that is still ok with me. - ] (]) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			*I'm very busy to day and have to go but the short answer is that making a user sit there and wait for however long it takes the blocking admin to show up has never seemd like a fair or useful requirtement in a case where there is extensive discussion between the blocked user and reviewing admins. ] ] 19:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Topic ban Ret. Prof. as a POV pusher and cherry-picker of sources''' Ret. Prof usage of sources is truly disgusting, the cherry-picking is atrocious. In the RS/N thread above, he quotes only those paragraphs that support his POV. He "forgets" to include paragraphs that say the theory is a minority:
			*:{{u|Beeblebrox}}, if the blocking administrator is on a lengthy wikibreak or has been desysopped or has died or refuses to respond to pings, then move ahead with the unblock, noting one of those factors. That does not seem to be the case here. Please discuss unblocks with the blocking adminstrator, as this is the normal expectation among administrators with the obvious exception of you. Thank you. ] (]) 19:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:* cites pages 301-303, but he forgets to quote from page 302 several sentences that contradict very strongly his position: "First, modern specialists in language hold that the author of Matthew wrote in Greek, not hebrw or Aramain. Second, most scholars accept the Two-Source theory (...) This theory requires that the author of Matthew knew and used Greek version of Mark and Greek Q as sources. (...) In short, Papias' description does not correspond well with the New Testament. (...) wrote very good Greek."
	:* Ret. Prof. cites page 602 to support his theory, but ''on the same page'' it says that the opinion has a lot of problems and is held only by a minority of scholars.
	:* states in the introduction that he is holding a minority opinion, and mentors told him that he could ruin his career by publishing his book
	:* he cites pages 86 and 87, but in page 87 "When applied to our Gospel of Matthew, this tradition is complete nonsense, as most scholars have recognized. Our Gospel is not only written in perfectly decent Greek, it was partly written by an author who was revising our Greek Mark into better Greek (...) It was therefore written in Greek. (...) How could such a grossly confunsed view of our Gospel of Matthew have arisen"
			:To be clear, since everyone else appears to be understanding the problem here as "Beeb doesn't consult with the blocking admins", I included that information here as relevant context, but that isn't really the main issue at hand. The main issue at hand is that Beeblebrox believes himself to be competent to administrate copyright unblocks, and is evidently not. Consultation with the blocking admin might have helped in these cases, but given Beeb's responses to having these two unblocks questioned, I suspect it would have made little difference. -- ] (]) 19:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	]. This is no longer a content dispute, Ret Prof has failed many times to make a content-based argument. He is just resorting to WP:ICANTHEARTHAT, refusing to read sources provided by others, cherry-picking sources, cherry-picking new sources when the old ones are debunked, incorrectly claiming that his position is clearly supported by sources, eroding other editors' patience, and re-inserting his edits again and again until everyone gets tired of reverting his incorrect edits. This tendentious editing is a blockable behaviour, and worthy of a topic-ban.
			::This is the second time the first unblock has been discussed. Is there a reason you're bringing it back here? I'm not sure two unblocks are. reasomable measure to determine whether @] is {{tq|competent to administrate copyright unblocks}}. I don't think either that or not consulting blocking admin when there was '''already''' a discussion in progress with that admin is ANI worthy. ] ] 21:42, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Do you see anything in these two unblocks and their subsequent discussions that suggests that he ''is'' competent to administrate copyright unblocks? In neither discussion has he even acknowledged that he had made any kind of mistake. -- ] (]) 21:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, I do. As well as in their long history as an admin. Editors can and will disagree, it's an opinion and neither of us is objectively correct. If you truly think he isn't competent, there are channels to bring it up. Bringing two unblocks, one a repeat, to ANI isn't going to accomplish anything. ] ] 01:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::You know, I feel like I have tried to meet you halfway recently, after admittedly being a little aggressive when first returning to handling unblock requests, but I'm getting the distinct impression at this point that you just don't like me no matter what. Suggesting that a slight disagreement like this indicates incompetence is a pretty nasty thing to do. ] ] 23:48, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I don't have the faintest idea what {{tq|I feel like I have tried to meet you halfway recently}} is referring to. Halfway to ''what''? -- ] (]) 05:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Okay, how about his statement in the first unblock (the one where he ever so kindly tried to pull rank on asilvering after they disagreed with him), he stated that he would not, and did not intend to, perform due diligence ({{tq|nope, I did not do what you said would be sufficient for you personally. Neither I nor anyone else is bound by that}})? Or a little while later doubled down with {{tq|I do not feel I was required to make the checks you wanted somebody to do}}? How about the way he dismissed the amount of time and effort it takes those of us working in copyright cleanup to mop up after these mistakes ({{tq|unblocks are cheap}}) and, perhaps this is the most important part of the entire situation, has stated that he believes copyright unblocks, and accepting them, are more a matter of good faith than anything else? ({{tq|we've become a bit too unwilling to just give second chances when a user, as this one did, apologizes and commits not to repeat the behaviors that led to the block}}{{efn|I agree with this in principle, by the way - or at least, I think we have one too many admins who are far too willing to block for even the most minor instances of disruption, and then drag their heels and attack admins who unblock, or mislead them into thinking they aren't allowed to unblock without consent, or who resort to personal attacks, use rollback, and levy level4im vandalism warnings against good-faith bystanders who try to help. And as long as those admins still have tools, we need admins like Beeblebrox who are willing to stand up to them an unblock obviously good faith newbies}}). {{pb}} Copyright issues aren't a simple matter of good faith by the way. Work one CCI, and you get to learn pretty much everything about an editor. You learn what what TV shows and music they like, where they're from, what little editing quirks they have, how they like to structure their articles - they're all unique. You know what's not unique? All them want to improve Misplaced Pages. Nobody's spending over a decade of their life ], ], or ] because they <em>want</em> to hurt the encyclopedia, or because they're simply negligent and need to be reminded to keep their fingers off the Crtl+V shortcut. Copyright unblocks are rarely given until several warnings have passed- so by the time we get to one, we've already repeatedly told a user "hey, if you copy-paste content into Misplaced Pages again you will be blocked". There's really not much room for misunderstanding there. And as much as I wish with all my heart and soul that we could give these people who plagiarize easy second chances, the severity of the issue and the difficulty in cleanup means that second chance has to be earnt. If we give somebody one last chance not to spam links, or mess with ENGVAR, or write promotional garbage, it'll be pretty easy for the community to tell if they go right back to their old habits, and any damage they do those issues are trivial to fix by a newbie rollbacker. Copyright issues? No- they can take weeks to months to years to be caught again{{efn|Copypatrol has limited functionality and NPP is not suited to catch anything but the most blatant copy-pastes from Earwig-readable online and well-linked sources}} - let alone clean up! We've got like like a dozen editors active in the copyright cleanup area? To really put things in perspective, I'm the newest and I got involved in 2023. We don't have the manpower to spare to do the due diligence Beeblebrox doesn't want to. The only reason the Jisshuu issue got cleaned up so fast is because asilvering was proactive, because {{yo|MrLinkinPark333}} and I spent a few hours digging through old books, and because I went to pester Beeblebrox on his talk page to mass-undo the most recent edits. (At some point, in his mind, this morphed into {{tq| I've undone a bunch of their bad edits myself}}... which I guess is technically true? But he certainly did not show the initiative to do this himself). And instead of thanking asilvering for going to extra mile, he did the entire {{tq|meaning no offense, I have been an admin a <em>lot</em> longer than you}} thing. {{pb}} Of course, Beeblebrox could have done due dilligence, I suppose. But if that's the case, then that means that yesterday we saw a very long term admin look at a user whose average talkpage message looked something like {{Blockquote|text=Helloo🙄, The Page you are talking about is "GDP nominal" , The Page i created is "gdp per Capita nominal". For PPP it has to articles gdp PPP and gdp PPP per Capita. So?, You need to review that.}} and (in response to an earlier copyright warning, btw) {{Blockquote|text=East Africa City States Existed, You can't just delete an Article even without verifying..You are the one violating Misplaced Pages Terms }} and then believed, no questions asked, that they wrote and understood {{Blockquote|text=I apologize for the copyright violation in my contributions and understand the importance of adhering to Misplaced Pages's copyright policies. Moving forward, I will create original content, properly attribute sources, and ensure all materials comply with Misplaced Pages’s licensing requirements. I have reviewed the relevant guidelines to prevent future infractions. I kindly request reconsideration of my case and assure you of full compliance in my future contributions}} and {{Blockquote|If I happen to find valuable information in a copyrighted source, I will make sure to write it completely in my own words while still capturing the main idea and will also make sure to properly cite it to give credit where due without violating any policies}} which is far more concerning. Either way, he hasn't demonstrated that he is willing to properly administer copyright unblocks. And don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of the "you must wait until the blocking admin responds before unblocking" culture, and I think we should trust that all admins have the common sense to deal with the average spam-block or disruptive editing block without waiting 10 days and multiple pings just for the blocking admin to not oppose the unblock. And I think there's ample room in our current system to occasionally override a block, or IAR and quickly unblock. But copyright blocks are a different beast, and I'm disappointed that Beeblebrox's response to criticism has been what it was.
			{{notelist}}
			:::] (]) 23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I would count my re-block in the second case as more-or-less coincidental, myself. I do think that consulting the blocking admin per policy is a good idea, and echo Cullen's "well, if they appear to have been ], then you should feel free to 'be bold'". ] (]) 20:23, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yeah that they were reblocked for socking has nothing at all to do with what they were previously blocked for, so it's a bit odd to see it held up here as an example of my recklessness. Unblocking, no matter who is consulted before hand, is always a risk, but when the original issue was copyvios and the reblock is for socking that was detected by a checkuser, it's hard to see how one can say the unblocking admin should have known about a completely unrelated second issue that required functionary permissions to detect.
			::The other account was rightly reblocked because they lied during the unblock process, which we had no way of knowing until they were unblocked and immediately started acting the fool, at which point they were blocked again and I pitched in cleaning up the bit of a mess they left in their wake.
			::Whatever one may think about me not consulting with the blocking admin, these two unblocks don't prove anything besides the already known fact that sometimes people lie. That's just part of what admins deal with every day if they are doing actual admin work. ] ] 00:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::And herein lies the problem: <em>they didn't lie</em>. They did not intend to deceive - they genuinely believed that they'd figured out the issue. Copyright blocks are nearly always done against good-faith users, and while it would be lovely to distill it down to some morally simple "they continue the behaviour => they were a liar all along", its not that simple and it never has been. ] (]) 00:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::However one interprets it, they made it seem as though they understood the issue, at which point it is not unreasonable to see if that is really the case by unblocking, as it had already been discussed at length.
			::::That was my point when I originally wrote my most oft-cited essay, ] fifteen years ago, and it remains my point today. At a certain point the only way to actually know is to give them a chance. While we always hope they succeed, sometimes they have learned nothing, and we block them again. This is how the system is ''supposed to work''.
			::::Neither of these people created large problems after I unblocked them. I helped clean up after one while the other did not make a single edit in the interval between when I unblocked them and when they were found by a checkuser to be a sock. The harm here was extremely minimal and easily reverted.
			::::Unlike AN, ANI is for asking for ''consequences'', via administrative action because a user demonstrates a pattern of behavior that is harming the encyclopedia. I don't feel like that case has been made here and I don't believe I see a request for any specific sanction against me, so unless and until those things change I think I'm done here. ] ] 01:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] it's not up to you to decide whether the community thinks you're out of line. Nobody wants to sanction you, but when users turn a blind eye to the community's feedback that's usually what winds up happening. Please reconsider. ] ] 02:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] I’ll plug my essay on this matter: ]. Personally, I think it’s better to ask editors to rewrite the content they were blocked for rather than quizzing them about copyright policy. Beebs, I think you know that I welcome your efforts with improving our unblock system, and I think the first cited unblock was a reasonable Good faith unblock, even if it wasn’t perfect (I mean, me and Diannaa have unblocked editors on promises of no longer adding copyvios, and have had to reblock them— it happens). On the other hand, I think you were too hasty in reversing JLAN’s block, especially given what you were told after the first unblock. I think more conversation would’ve been better, and that while contacting JLAN for “permission” to unblock isn’t strictly required, you could have pinged him saying you were intending on unblocking. I’ll contrast this with your comment on ], which I think reflects a better approach to these sorts of blocks. I hope this is something that can be moved on from, and that you continue to look at unblocks that might slip through our systemic cracks, while also being diligent while looking into the background. ]] 02:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*No, look, don't unilaterally unblock people who copyvio. That's not okay and it ought to be obvious why. Never do it again.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 23:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:{{u|Beeblebrox}}, ''please'' do not try to brush off the valid concerns that have been expressed here about your strange stance that discussing unblock requests with the blocking administrator is unnecessary. As you well know, this is a collaborative project and that includes collaboration among administrators. Please commit to discussing unblocks with the blocking administrator at the minimum, except in extraordinary circumstances. Two heads are better than one. It is quite disconcerting to read the things that you are saying. ] (]) 02:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::In case you missed it, last month I reported at AN regarding finding what I believe were some serious issues in how unblock requests are being handled. In one of these threads I specifically mentioned asilvering as one of three admins who had missed an obvious error by a blocking admin when reviewing a particular unblock request. I did not suggest this was malicious or deliberate or a sign of incompetence, just an error.
			*::I don't think it is a coincidence that now two relatively harmless unblocks are being held up as evidence that I am incompetent to handle unblock requests. ] ] 02:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I didn't miss it and I think it's why you're maybe having trouble hearing the sensible advice being offered to you by Cullen (and echoed by lots of other people like Izno, Moneytrees, 331dot, PhilKnight, deadbeef, and Elli in their own ways). Whether or not unblocks of copyright blocks are appropriate has seen a number of different viewpoints, but I'm seeing pretty unanimous support for the idea that you've been seeing exceptions that others don't see in when to consult. I specifically highlight Cullen's words because of the clear way he lays out when consulting may not make sense. I write this to you in the spirit of ]. Best, ] (]) 02:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I don't utterly reject the very idea that soliciting comment from the blocking admin can be helpful. I have done so on many past occasions. However, in very straighforward cases where the block reason is obvious and the blocked user admits their error and pledges not to repeat it, I'm at a loss as to what special insight we expect that the blocking admin will ''always'' have, but will not share with us unless specifically asked. I can say I am willing to have a more open mind about when to seek that opinion out and when not to, but I can't accept that it is a hard-and-fast rule, because it isn't. ] ] 03:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::As asilvering noted above, the purpose of this thread was not about whether you contacted the blocking admin but rather that you unblocked two users blocked for copyright with huge red flags in their unblock requests. The first had been editing on Simple Wiki during their EnWiki block, where they were continuing to including copyrighted material in their edits. The second was an editor clearly using an LLM in their unblock request, making it unclear to anyone whether they actually understood policy and would follow it. This isn't about AGF, ROPE, or pinging the blocking admin. It's about being inadequately reviewing the evidence provided and not understanding the seriousness of copyright issues.. ] (]) 03:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::It's really petty that this already resolved situation is being brought up nearly a month later because you are still mad that I didn't do what you think I should have, but was in no way actually obligated to do. I'm an admin on en.wp, the main thing I know about other projects is that they all make their own rules that may or may not be as strict as ours. And again, this situation was resolved with minimal harm nearly a month ago. ] ] 03:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Can you please stop trying to make assumptions about other editors' emotional states with regards to this discussion? You've accused me of a retaliatory filing, which makes no sense at all (if you did indeed specifically mention me {{tq|as one of three admins who had missed an obvious error by a blocking admin}}, well, please let me know again, since it went completely over my head), and now you're saying that Significa liberdade is angry with you, when as far as I can tell she's simply trying to explain to you what the issue at hand here actually is. Whether other projects have different rules has nothing to do with whether or not an editor understands how to write without infringing copyright.
			*:::::::The situation was evidently ''not'' resolved, since you've done ''another'' "AGF" unblock on copyright without checking that the editor has actually understood the situation. For all I know there have been others as well, and I'm only aware of these two. It's one thing to shrug and make this kind of unblock when we're dealing with someone with a history of simple vandalism; they'll be easy to catch again if they go back to their old ways, and will be reblocked with minimal fuss. Copyvio is much less reliably caught and is a ''tremendous'' amount of work to clean up after. -- ] (]) 04:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::I'll gladly concede that that copyvios are a serious issue that should not be taken lightly, I think we all agree on that, but it wasn't actually a big deal with the post post-block edits of either of the users I unblocked. ] ] 05:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::I will not, however, back down on the idea that this seems retaliatory. There's not a serious ongoing issue currently causing harm to the encyclopedia, so why are we at ANI? ] ] 05:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::::What could I possibly be retaliating ''against''? The worst thing you've done to me is be condescending. (Well, and give me and others some extra work to do, I suppose, cleaning up after the first one.) We're at ANI because, as I said in my initial post, your approach to copyright {{tq|is extremely bad practice, and it needs to stop.}} I wasn't able to convince you to take copyright seriously and the problem has recurred. Right now it still looks likely to recur ''again'', so it is very much an ongoing issue, if a slow-moving one. Please, investigate copyright concerns thoroughly, or leave them for someone else. -- ] (]) 05:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::This isn't very consistent with the discussion on my talkpage where you objected to my username/promotion block for an editor that you chose to warn rather than block ; while I agree that I should have checked to see if that editor had been specifically warned (and then I unblocked as you asked), it seems to me that if you're expecting consultation over blocking someone you ''didn't'' block, you should expect to have to consult over an unblock. I realize you're trying to accomplish changes to the blocking process to be less, erm, blocky, but this seems a little hard to follow. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 03:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Unblocking someone is often, usually even, not at all equivalent to overturning the blocking admins decision. That would be the distinction as I see it. ] ] 03:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Your argument at the time was essentially that my decision to block overturned your decision ''not'' to block. While I personally do not insist on consultation regarding a change in one of my actions, it's generally a good gesture, and widely practiced. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">] <small>]</small></span>''' 11:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::{{tq|I specifically mentioned asilvering as one of three admins who had missed an obvious error by a blocking adminI don't think it is a coincidence}} Sorry, but as a participant in that thread, where exactly did this happen? Diffs, please. You've been around long enough ]. ] (]) 03:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Fair enough, I apparently misremembered. asilvering was very upset by what I said but was not one of the admins I specifically mentioned in that case. ] ] 05:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od}}I confess that I am totally bewildered about why a highly experienced adminstrator is behaving in what appears to me to be a haughty and tone deaf manner. ] (]) 05:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Beebs doesn't seem to be the only one behaving in a "haughty and tone deaf manner." Everyone on this thread frankly seemed to be going in for their pound of flesh. I thought this was supposed to be a "collaborative community," not a flock of vultures circling a fresh carcass. ] (]) 08:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	After this disgusting show of cherry-picking, I wouldn't trust Ret. Prof with interpretation of ''any'' source. If he is a good-faith editor, then he is completely unable to read sources without filtering everything through his bias. --] (]) 15:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Agreed. ]] 16:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::+1. The level of the temperature here seems FAR higher than what should be merited by the complaint. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 00:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Those on the "other side" are insisting this is not personal or in any way a reaction to the previous AN threads I opened last month around issues I saw at ], but I can't recall a previous time that I saw several admins insist another admin was incompetent because of granting ''one'' unblock request that went slightly awry and was quickly and thoroughly dealt with, with assistance from the unblocking admin. If that is now sanctionable behavior, we'd lose a boatload of admins pretty quick.
			::::I can agree to consider copyvio-related unblock requests more carefully, but I utterly reject the premise that this one unblock demonstrates incompetence. ] ] 19:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|"It does bother me a little that somehow the users who seem the most upset with me are all women."}}
			:::::Um, excuse me? We're going to circle back round to the copyright thing, but what the ever living fuck is this comment? First of, as far as I know, you're wrong dk why you've imprinted on asilvering = fem, but they don't discloser their gender on or offwiki. Secondly, again, why is this relevant? Like, seriously. Not looking to turn this into Beeblebrox and WPO part 2: Electric Boogaloo, (if you say something about how that's just how you talk to your mates in a bar, I shall scream) but how is my gender relevant to this issue??? ] (]) 21:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@] I was mad and forgot to ping. scroll up. ] (]) 21:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I think you've got my intent there backwards.It bothers me because I don't like the idea that somehow my actions or attitude are specifically offensive to women. However, I'm unable to see why that would be. Just a little self-doubt is all. ] ] 21:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Pray tell what intent I've ascribed to your actions, because as far as <em>I</em> know, I just don't get why you feel the need to comment on my gender at all.
			::::::::@] I give up. ] (]) 23:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::@], I don't know what users you were talking about when you wrote that comment, but the only person I see in this thread that I can confidently describe as "upset" is GLL, and what upset her was your comment about upsetting women. I think we can probably chalk that one up to a mutual misunderstanding and let it drop. I'm glad you've agreed to consider copyvio-related unblock requests more carefully. -- ] (]) 00:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::GLL, you have not explicitly said what you thought or imagined the intent was, but you ''did'' explicitly say {{tq|I was mad}}. So I don't think I'm way out in left field in saying that you seem to believe my intent to be something other than what I was trying to express, which I have already endeavored to explain. You may chose to believe my explanation or not as you see fit. ] ] 00:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::GLL, you're right to give up. Let it go. Beebs has got the message. He can count how many people are cross and he knows the maths at recall. He gets it. We won't see this again.
			::::::::::If you're looking for a clearer admission of error, you won't get one. People have pride.
			::::::::::If you're looking for an explanation of the women comment, assume that of all the possible meanings, Beebs meant the least creepy.
			::::::::::This is all over. Someone will close it soon.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 00:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::{{tq|somehow my actions or attitude are specifically offensive to women. However, I'm unable to see why that would be.}} Going out of one's way to make commentary along the lines of 'the people who are mad at me are all women' ({{tq|the users who seem the most upset with me are all women."}}) (especially when it ends up not being knowably true) seems pretty plainly sexist; it resonates with a long history of ]. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 00:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::You couldn't be more wrong. I was pondering what I had done so wrong that women in particular seemed to be upset with my actions, so that I could ''avoid doing so again'' but I wasn't able to parse out exactly what that might be.
			:::::::::That it is now having the opposite effect is a terrible and unintended result, and another reminder that sometimes I should just keep some of my thoughts in my head, lest they be grossly misunderstood if I write them down. ] ] 01:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::On one hand, I agree with the sentiment that it's rather asinine when one of the parties to a noticeboard dispute types half of their statements to their interlocutors here, and slaps the other half on a forum where some crazy guy will stalk your family if you mention its existence. However, this seems to me like a completely inverted reading of Beebs' post:
	:'''That simply is not true.''' My interpretation of the sources is solid. Look at them as a whole! In any event I have little doubt that I would prevail at either mediation or arbitration. I suspect that is why the POV Railroad wants me banned NOW. - ] (]) 15:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|It does bother me a little that somehow the users who seem the most upset with me are all women. I don't think I've acted like an overbearing mansplainer, and I certainly have not talked down to anyone due to their gender.}}
	::The facts speak by themselves. You imply refuse to accept what sources say. Count me as part of that mythical "POV railroad" that wants you banned from wikipedia. --] (]) 16:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::::::It seems clear to me that this post is bemoaning that his attempts to be intersectionally uplifting and Mind The Gap and etc have not succeeded, as opposed to being some sort of misog chud missive. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 00:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::<s>Man, I thought wikipedia admins were supposed to be civil to others jpxg. It appears I was mistaken. How disappointing. ] (]) 02:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</s>
			::::::::Welcome to the fun house. And they wonder why people leave... ]] 02:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::two admins behaving in an uncivil manner towards their colleague. That is indeed disappointing. ] (]) 02:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I have no idea what you are referring to with this comment. Do you think I am obliged to stand by and say nothing when a person's words are misinterpreted? What are you talking about? Did you respond to the wrong post? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::<s>I definitely did respond to the right post. I would not regard referring to someone as a "chud" as being particularly civil. Disappointed that you don't see the issue with your own post.] (]) 04:59, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</s>
			::::::::::I did not do that. Please see ]. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 05:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I will retract my statements having had a better chance to read what you said. Not a big fan of your snark though. ] (]) 05:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			: I would encourage Beeblebrox to read ] thread and maybe recalibrate his approach to copyright blocks. By the tenor of that thread and this thread, I think the prevailing attitude surrounding copyright unblocks is that the threshold for an unblock is becoming way higher (and I think it's a correct one in my view). No opinion as to disallowing Beebs to accept copyright-related unblocks, but I think he needs to be more careful with them. <span>♠] ]</span>♠ 01:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Can't both things be true: (a) that we need to protect the encyclopaedia (and the community), and copyvio is one of the more obvious cases; AND (b) that admins trying to do (a) sometimes make mistakes and spotting them is also part of the cluefulness the community expects in an admin? (It's not as if all the blocked editors are convicted murderers seeking to get out of jail, or as if all blocking admins have Papal infallibility. Or as if the unblock request system is designed to be a consensus discussion.) ] (]) 04:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Confused:''' If you feel strongly that "your interpretation" of the sources is the only right one, why are you so concerned about going to mediation or arbitration. If my understanding of the reliable sources (or lack there of) is as bad as you say, then you will prevail... and I can leave Misplaced Pages secure in the knowledge that I was fairly judged an "incompetent" who used "fringe". Seems reasonable??? - ] (]) 16:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	::And please bring Ret. Prof. to arbitration. He has filled this thread with such walls of text and excuses that we are unlikely to get anything done here. It's obvious that the community can't handle this guy. --] (]) 16:30, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			===Proposal: Beeblebrox is not allowed to accept copyright-related unblock requests ===
	:::It seems we had an edit conflict. (Both writing at the same time). I am glad you support arbitration. Cheers - ] (]) 16:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop
	::::Mediation would be good ''if'' you agree to respect the decision. (i.e. if the mediator said that the Hebrew version of Matthew is held by a minority of scholars, would you respect that decision?) --] (]) 23:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			| result = There is consensus against the proposed sanction. ] (]) 16:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			When dealing with copyright unblocks, Beeblebrox has expressed intent to test whether somebody really understands copyright, not by doing due diligence or consulting with those more experienced in copyright issues than he, but by unblocking the editor.{{efn|{{tq|"I have a long-held belief that unblocking is, in many cases, preferable to talking it out for several days or weeks, and that unblocks are cheap"}}}} This has so far resulted in the unblock of one editor where there was clear evidence that they had continued good-faith plagiarism on other English-language WMF projects,{{efn|Jisshu unblock, December 2024}} and one on the say-so of a chatbot.{{efn|Aguahrz unblock, January 2025}} He has cast aspersions and insulted both good-faith users who don't understand copyright{{efn|{{tq|1="they lied during the unblock process" }}}} and editors who bring up issues with his actions.{{efn|1={{tq|"Suggesting that a slight disagreement like this indicates incompetence is a pretty nasty thing to do"}}}}{{efn|1={{tq|"It's really petty that this already resolved situation is being brought up nearly a month later because you are still mad"}}}}{{efn|1={{tq|"I will not, however, back down on the idea that this seems retaliatory"}}}} While acknowledging that these two situations ended up being fixed relatively quickly, that was only due to the proactive behaviour of third-parties. Under normal circumstances these would be chocked up as a learning experience, but his comments make it very clear that he has not learnt anything,{{efn|1={{tq|"it wasn't actually a big deal"}}}}{{efn|1={{tq|"these two unblocks don't prove anything besides the already known fact that sometimes people lie"}}}} that he is unwilling to listen to the concerns of other editors,{{efn|1={{tq|"There's not a serious ongoing issue currently causing harm to the encyclopedia, so why are we at ANI?"}}}} and will continue to act in the same manner going forward.{{efn|1={{tq|"I think that, realistically, the bar is somewhere around 'a grasp of the general idea that you can't just copy someone else's work and repost it like it was your own work'"}}}} Therefore, I am proposing that Beeblebrox is not allowed to unblock editors blocked for copyright infringement or plagiarism.
			{{notelist}}
			] (]) 08:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as proposer. I'm not a fan of holding editors responsible for the actions of others, but Beeblebrox's ideas about when copyright unblocks are needed (see the last footnote) are not great. This is the least invasive action I can think of that will limit disruption to Misplaced Pages articles. ] (]) 08:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''oppose''' is this the Spanish Inquisition? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			*'''Premature'''. Give the man a chance to read the room and think. He will figure out that "I've upset Asilvering in the past, therefore Asilvering is wrong" is not a workable defence, and then he'll get the message. Beebs is on a crusade to improve our unblocking response, and that's a good thing; he's just got to recalibrate about ''who'' he unblocks. He will. Beebs isn't stupid, he's just bad at listening.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 09:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::A wise man. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 10:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Hopefully you're right, S Marshall, and it wouldn't surprise me that much if everything you've said is true. The very impressive way he's making this all about whether to consult the unblocking or not isn't exactly giving me faith that he'll figure it out any time soon, but fingers crossed! {{pb}} And, I know I'm repeating myself here but for the avoidance of doubt I don't give a monkey's about consulting the blocking administrator in every case, I agree with most of the crusade and did a decent amount of legwork which enabled me to bring up examples in the previous AN thread of unblocks gone bad . @], as somebody who is also one-track minded to a fault, please listen to S Marshall, read the words I am typing, and at least try understand where I and the others in this thread are coming from, because it's not what you think. ] (]) 01:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I fully understand that the original intent of this thread was not "he didn't consult with the blocking admin" but rather "he sucks at reviewing copyvio-related unblock requests". I don't think it was me alone who changed the focus to consulting the blocking admin, the other respondents, mostly admins themselves, did that.
			:::Putting that issue aside, and I mean in this in the nicest possible way, if you're going to try and get somebody sanctioned for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, you need to come locked and loaded with a ''lot'' more than what has been presented here, which realistically, is one single unblock. If you're going to call someone incompetent at anything, you should probably anticipate a strong response to such a personal and insulting accusation.
			:::I'm open to criticism, but this sanction attempt was so thin on evidence that it's practically invisible.
			:::Don't get me wrong, I think you're ok in general but this proposed sanction was a very premature gross overreaction. ] ] 02:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::On consulting the blocking admin, I'm 100% with you. I've been the victim of a bad block (by a sitting arb, in fact). That's how I know that the character who blocked me shouldn't ever become the gatekeeper for my unblock. I'm passionate about that on principle.
			::::I think it's a great pity that some people have made this into a thread about consulting the blocker. I don't blame you for focusing on that side of it because on that side of it you're in the right, at a fundamental, ethical level.
			::::But on unblocking copyright violating editors, your position is not exactly akin to Gibraltar.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 11:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''', mostly per Beeblebrox's own comment above: {{tq|Unlike AN, ANI is for asking for consequences, via administrative action because a user demonstrates a pattern of behavior that is harming the encyclopedia. I don't feel like that case has been made here and I don't believe I see a request for any specific sanction against me, so unless and until those things change I think I'm done here.}} Since that comment, he's continued to not get it, and to impugn the motives of basically everyone who disagrees with him. ] ] 12:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' premature and unnecessary. Two <s>blocks</s>unblocks, one of which was hashed out a month ago, does not prove a large issue that merits consequences. ] ] 13:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' as too soon. Let's see how things turn out... - ] ]
			*'''Oppose'''. Several people, including myself, observed in 2024 that our requests for unblock process had become schlerotic and was suffering from undue months-long delays, largely as the result of too few administrators working CAT:RFU. More recently the situation has improved substantially, with Beeblebrox being responsible for much of the improvement, both by pointing attention to the problem (albeit not always in the same words I would use), and by himself acting on many of the pending requests. I do agree that consulting the initial blocking admin is typically appropriate and can lead to important information (for example, in one recent case I reviewed, I was puzzled at a block that appeared to be an overreaction to a single dubious edit, but I had forgotten to check the user's edit-filter log, which made the reason crystal-clear). I can also agree, based on several people's observations above, that copyvio blocks can call for a little extra caution, and that these days we now need to be scrutinizing unblock requests for insincere chatbot-generated garbage. Nonetheless, the overall pattern of improved admin responsiveness to unblock requests should continue and Beeblebrox should continue to be part of the solution. I also commend the other admins who have pitched in recently in this area; to state the obvious, the more people share the workload, the less will be the burden, stress, or risk of burnout on any one admin, and the more fair will be our unblock requests process both to the blocked users and to everyone else. ] (]) 14:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' With apologies that I didn't fully read all of the background that led to this particular thread. I agree that Cat:RFU has too few admins working at and I say this is someone who is probably never contributed, but as someone who does at least my fair share investigating copyright issues, I do know a little about the situation. While I think it's fair to assert that most copyright violations are good faith errors, it doesn't follow that most blocks for copyright violations are good faith errors. (I'm not suggesting that anyone specifically said that, but it's a possible take away.) Speaking only for my personal approach, I review a lot of potential copyright violations. I reverted and warned many violators. I don't believe I've ever personally blocked anyone for a single violation. The rare cases I block someone for copyright violations is when it has been repeated even after warnings. In my opinion if you've been warned and still do it, it is no longer good faith. That might not be malicious it might be incompetence, but it then deserves a block. I agree it is best practice to talk to the blocking administrator, and while I personally try to make sure to stay active for a period of time after blocking someone, that's not always possible, so I'm not in favor of requiring interaction with the blocking administrator. ]] 17:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - With Misplaced Pages likely to be playing defense in the coming few years, I'm sympathetic to being extra cautious when it comes to potential legal vulnerabilities, and agree with some of the procedural criticisms in the thread above, but this seems like an unnecessary escalation amid active conversation. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 17:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' his responses don't inspire confidence. He doesn't seem to care that other admins find some of his behavior in unblock requests subpar. I would expect a more robust response and an acknowledgement to do better. I often hear that admins are supposed to be held to a higher standard, and I don't believe his responses here meet that standard.]] 17:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Premature''' per S Marshall (both in the !voting and ). ] (]) 18:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Aguahrz was re-blocked for matters unrelated to copyright. One example does not suggest a wider problem requiring a bizarre type of topic ban. ] (]) 19:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' regardless of the intent when openeing this thread, it seems pretty clear to me that the bulk of commenters are in fact upset that I often do not consult with thr blocking admin, I don't see a consensus that these two unblocks represent a pattern of causing real harm to the encyclopedia, to the extent that a sanction is required. I have already said I will try to keep a more open mind about it going forward, you can beleive that or not, but a topic ban is obviously grossly premature. ] ] 19:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:{{tq|While acknowledging that these two situations ended up being fixed relatively quickly, that was only due to the proactive behaviour of third-parties}} is exceptionally bullshitty.
			*:The admin who reblocked in the second case not "fixing my error," they discovered using checkuser that the user was a sock and blocked them. It had nothing whatsoever to do with copyvios or my decision to unblock them.
			*:And in the first case, as I've mentioned, as soon as I became aware of their activities I went in and helped clean it up, as GLL is perfectly aware since they were the one who ]. ] ] 20:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I've just now noticed that the proposal is "''Proposal: Beeblebrox is not allowed to '''accept''' copyright-related unblock requests''" (emphasis added). So, I'm competent to deny such requests, just not to accept? How does that make sense? ] ] 03:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' premature, willing to accept Beeblebrox's course correction. Once upon a time, different things were thought of as cowboy adminning than they are today, and community norms change. I know that from experience. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 21:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - Unnecessary. ] (]) 23:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' -- I don't think the argument that Beebs is somehow not competent to handle copyright unblocks has merit. As has been pointed out, policy does not strictly require consultation -- it's a "should" do, and there are valid reasons (both the "hit by bus" argument and as Brad points out "our unblocking process sucks") why an administrator may choose not to consult. There's a reason, for instance, that CTOPS/AE unblocks explicitly have a different unblocking process -- if the community wanted a no-exceptions blanket policy, they would have implemented one. I'm honestly surprised by the level of hostility he's getting here. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 00:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' This feels like it's about far more than what's being presented here. As others have noted there's a significant level of hostility here that doesn't feel warranted. In any case, restrictions of the kind proposed are premature at best. ]] 14:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' as premature. The threaded discussion from prior to this proposal should keep going.—] 14:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' I am not seeing a pattern of multiple bad unblocks that would justify this sanction. -- ] (]) 14:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' absurdly massive overreaction, if not a solution looking for a problem. ] (]) 16:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ] and persistant ], ], and ]-failing articles ==
	*'''Comment''': With respect to editor conduct, I would like to ask a rhetorical question, as a thought-starter. Is it appropriate conduct for a small group of editors to follow an editor around Misplaced Pages and delete everything they write? Just wondering. Maybe some of the arbs reading this would like to ponder that question as well. There seems to be a reluctance on the part of the WPC crowd to engage in arbitration, and I think I can understand why. If one of the hard-asses on the committee becomes the drafting arb and chooses to dig into the root causes of this dispute, very few of them will be left standing. ] (]) 18:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			] has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of ] and ] seems to be lacking substantially.
	===Propose closure===
	*I proposed this be closed as it's a majority of the same editors arguing their content POV to be correct and the other to be fringe. Don't care if it goes to Mediation or Arbitration, it just doesn't belong here. This is a content dispute and administrator's do not have any authority to determine content beyond what any regular editor might. This dispute takes a deep understanding and knowledge of thousands of years of historical and theological issues that need structure. Attempts by the subject of the thread to argue their point are unfairly criticized as "walls of text" despite them only being a few short paragraphs. Not sure when a ] started counting for 'walls'. Arbitration rarely decided who is 'right' and more often decides who ''behaved'' 'wrong'. By my count, Ret.Prof. wouldn't be singled out by Arbcom. With all of that in mind, and with consideration for the 0 progress this thread has made so far, I propose this simply be closed.--v/r - ]] 20:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	*Oppose closure, '''propose topic ban for 12 months for User Ret.Prof on content related to a supposed lost Hebrew Gospel of Matthew'''. It's clearly ] as the above shows. This has been going on for 4 years now and now it is finally here at ANI can easily be dealt with. The only reason for prolonging this is if someone actually wants fringe views in ] and related articles. ] (]) 21:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I think the '''''box below''''' proves that this is not "clearly fringe". It proves the allegations against me ie ''"I am an Incompetent ignoring the overwhelming consensus that Papias was fringe"'' are false. - ] (]) 23:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::"The only reason for prolonging this is if someone actually wants fringe views in ] and related articles." These types of comments are the ''problem'' and not the ''solution''. Please do not infer the motivations of others. Content disputes cannot be solved by admins. Therefore, ANI cannot solve this 'easily' nor ''at all''. This needs mediation for the content dispute or arbitration for the behavioral issues. If your method of arguing is exactly the sentence I've quoted, then I'm positive you will not want this to go to Arbitration because the quoted sentence is the very definition of what a ] is. This needs to close before you make anymore comments which might boomerang. Bottom line: ].--v/r - ]] 02:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Sorry, that statement was intended to be merely predictive not to infer motivations, it's merely fatigue - the content issue, the weighing of ]/]/] has been gone over again and again and again and again by multiple editors over 4 years. But whatever... ] (]) 06:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure''': Tom, formal mediation is the best opportunity to reach an agreement where all parties can feel they contributed something positive to improve the encyclopedia; as such, it represents the carrot in this dispute. Failing that, the stick is arbitration, where "breaking the back" of this dispute won't be a pleasant experience. ] (]) 22:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure''' and everything else Ignocrates just said, which is very sensible and I can't improve on. ] /]/ 22:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure''' and '''formal mediation'''. One element of the formal mediation agreement should be that mediator has discretion to issue a binding directive on the behaviour of all parties and that the parties agree to go to '''arbitration''' if it isn't abided by. (This is an expansion of Ignicrates' comment above - frankly I don't think Arbcom would accept this case at the present stage). ] (]) 00:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I agree; however, if this ANI report is closed without an action <U>and</U> formal mediation is rejected or fails, the arbs will take the request for arbitration. ] (]) 00:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure''' As previously stated, I think this should go to Mediation. While I'm flattered to be asked and be considered a neutral party, I'm comfortable offering my editor's opinion but I don't have the experience to guide a formal mediation.
	: I also recommend against relying on the Fringe Noticeboard. From what I've seen, there is a zealousness there by a small group of editors in labeling points of view and specific editors as representing "fringe" which then leads to them being targeted and driven from Misplaced Pages. While I agree that pseudoscience should not masquerade as science, I don't believe every minority viewpoint is fringe and needs to be eliminated from WP. IMO. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 01:28, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure''' and mediation. I always thought the Apocalypse was a Hebrew book. I asked Dr. Elaine Pagles about this and she said one of her students wrote a dissertation, which is now a book, entitled, "Parables of War: Reading John's Jewish Apocalypse," John W. Marshall, 2001. On page 2 of that book, Marshall writes, "Putting it bluntly, I argue that the Apocalypse is a Jewish and not a Christian document." ] (]) 03:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure:''' The sooner the better per Tom P above. Then we all take some time to heal from the wounds we inflicted on each other. Finally, we work through the mediation, not with a view of "winning", but with the goal of doing what is best for Misplaced Pages. - ] (]) 04:28, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Note''' I've asked RetProf (on his talk page) to pick a mediator from the list. This will avoid him feeling that he's being railroaded (an expression he's used above). I've also asked him to collaborate with myself and Ignocrates on the wording of the approach. ] (]) 06:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Or he can simply request mediation and the mediators will select someone from among themselves. I'm happy to assist with the details (saw your note), and I agree that Ret.Prof should be the one to initiate the request for mediation. ] (]) 14:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support closure''' and mediation, however I think that Ret.Prof should receive a warning about ]. If the Hebrew Matthew isn't fringe, why was Edwards warned of putting his own career in danger? This would not happen if he was advocating just another minority view. ] (]) 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::This is actually a very good point! The Hebrew Gospel is seen as in some circles. I have received a simular warning, which nearly came true this week here at Misplaced Pages!!! Yet it also landed Edwards a generous invitation to pursue the project as a Member at the . Many scholars have now bravely come out in support of Edwards, including Markus Brockmuehl of Oxford and Loren T Stuckenbruck of Princeton. Then in 2010 for the world's leading non Christian Biblical scholar made At that point the existence of the ''Hebrew Gospel'' ceased to be the minority position. - ] (]) 20:36, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			* was deleted for ]
	====The rest of the Story====
	Now you have seen how the POV Railroad works. I have been accused over and over and over again of being Incompetent and ignoring the overwhelming consensus that Papias was fringe. Now please take a few minutes to open the box below. Please note this is just an excerpt. Going to the source ie ] would be good - ] (]) 23:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{cot|1=Excerpt from ]}}
			* on ] and ] grounds
	===Gospel of Matthew===
	Re the ], most Biblical commentaries, dictionaries, encyclopedias, even study Bibles have a section on the Papias tradition which says that Matthew first wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. However there is a dispute as to whether this is fringe?
	:: The views of Papias were preserved by the early Christian historian, "Eusebius of Caesarea (ca. 260–ca. 339 CE), generally held by modern scholars to be fairly trustworthy." Papias meant that it is "genuinely true that the apostle Matthew compiled the sayings of Jesus" in a Hebrew dialect, and the testimony of Papias explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage “directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves.” & The historical data is both ''"striking and incontestable".'' Virtually every piece of external evidence we have from the first few centuries regarding the authorship of the Gospels concurs that Matthew's Gospel was first written in a Hebrew dialect. The widespread agreement of early sources on a number of points is truly remarkable and "cannot be brushed aside, particularly since the discrepancies among these sources regarding other points strongly suggest that they are not, for the most part, simply copying one another." In total there are more than 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that this ''Hebrew Gospel'' was in wide circulation. Twelve of the Early Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. No ancient writer either Christian or Non Christian challenged these facts. (Edwards 2009 , &
			* on ] and ]
			*They've been warned about ] and .
	See most up to date sources:
	*
	*
	*
	*
	*
			*] which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in )
	:See also
			*Plenty of articles containing only one source ], ], ], ], ], ]
			Most recently there's ], which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.
	'''Issue'''
			Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. ] but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to ] someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a ] article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. ] 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	Does the aforementioned scholarship on the authorship of the '''''''''' fall under the category of WP:Fringe theories?
			:Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. ] ] 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I checked this ] which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:
			:*1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "]," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
			:*2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
			:*3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
			:*4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
			:*5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
			:*6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
			:*7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.
			:Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "]". ] (]) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.}}
			::I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between ] and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.
			::{{tq|I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.}}
			::Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails ] doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass ] and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example
			::{{tq|A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".}}
			::I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have ] issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass ] before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. ] 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			* The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that ''is'' in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. ] 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Importance'''
			* Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the ] policy. I propose and '''support''' a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating ], they gain that necessary understanding/competence. ] (]) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''SUPPORT''' ban from article creation. ] ] 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' article creation ban. ] (]) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*'''Support''' Ban.
	Although most scholars no longer believe that the was a translation of Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel'', many do believe the ''Hebrew Gospel'' was the or of the Canonical Gospel of Matthew . (See )
			:] (]) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with ]. ] (]) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored.
			::I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. ] (]) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! ] (]) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. ] 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I dunno. ] (]) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. ] (]) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: ]. There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) ] (]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' This is editor is still creating dog poor articles ]. This is the second in days thats been speedied. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Tendentious name changing by MŞ46 ==
	- ] (]) 12:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Pblock from mainspace applied. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{U|MŞ46}} has been changing Bangladeshi placenames from ] to ] for over a month. They were warned against this on their talk page on and , but did not reply.
			They were warned again on , and to the effect that they were using the official names (which is not in dispute). On , I made a more detailed reply, again emphasising what the common name is and that Misplaced Pages's policy is to use it. They stopped answering in English, but replied in Bengali on . In reply, I explained yet again on .
			In the past three days, with no further communication on their part, they have changed names in 80+ articles (from to ) in violation of policy and consensus.
			They need to be blocked to stop the disruption to Bangladesh and West Bengal-related articles. Perhaps an initial block will get them to understand policy and that repeatedly violating it has consequences. If their fluency in English is insufficient to comprehend the policy or to collaborate by communicating in English, then more drastic measures may be needed. --] (]) 23:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:What are the grounds given by those suggesting that this is fringe? ] (]) 13:34, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			* They've started moving pages as well . I've pblocked them from mainspace, perhaps they will start communicating, if possible. I haven't reverted their previous edits, but could do a mass rollback if necessary. ] 23:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Hmmmm My honest answer is there are not any. A NPOV discussion of the topic should have both those who support the Papias tradition and those who oppose. - ] (]) 14:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:::If nobody has suggested that this is fringe, why are you asking here? ] (]) 14:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::The above material was deleted from the ] and on the talk page it was said to be fringe. Best you look at it directly for I would hate to be accused of misrepresenting their position. - ] (]) 14:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::::So, in a nutshell, the question is: is the ] fringe, or not? ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 14:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I think that would be off topic. The above scholars are talking about the origins of the ], that it was of composite scholarship of which Most most Biblical commentaries, dictionaries, encyclopedias, even study Bibles have a section in their article devoted to the Papias tradition in their articles on the Gospel of Matthew. - ] (]) 15:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::<small>Ret.Prof, please do not edit your posts after people have responded to them. It makes understanding the flow of discussion difficult. ] (]) 15:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC) Sorry I forgot the link and to sign - ] (]) 15:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::Looking at the Gospel of Matthew talk page it appears that grounds ''have'' been given for the suggestion that this is fringe. As to whether this is correct or not, I am in no position to respond, and I suspect that few other WP:FTN regulars are likely to be able to either - Biblical scholarship is rather outside the scope of the sort of issues usually raised here. Evaluating sources regarding a specialist subject such as this may well be beyond most of us, and I suspect that you might do better to take this to dispute resolution, rather than expecting any sort of 'yes' or 'no' answer here. ] (]) 14:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::You are correct. They seem to agree the matter is clear, has been resolved and is a dog that won't hunt! I remember Casey, Ehrman etc being debated "as fringe" in ], the heated discussion on the as well as the and I even remember some discussion with ], ] ], ], ], ] and ], BUT I have no recollection of a "Fringe debate" on Ehrman, Casey, Blackwell etc re the Gospel of Matthew?? Nor was it ever brought to ] ?? Cheers - ] (]) 15:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	After a somewhat confused start due to my typing skills, we must look at ] and see if they apply here. - ] (]) 16:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	:Allow me to jump in here and offer an independent perspective. There needs to be a call by neutral third party observers on whether the topic Ret.Prof describes, i.e. the <U>content</U>, is fringe. Taking this to dispute resolution implies there is a conduct problem. That is beside the point here. I believe an RfC was tried previously, but it was dominated by the very same people arguing strenuously for removal of the material. ] (]) 16:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::Well said and thanks for getting us back on track! - ] (]) 16:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::] deals with issues where there is no conduct problem. Someone should probably notify wikiproject Christianity, ] (]) 16:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::This is a complex textual problem with a long history. It may well be beyond the scope of FTN. I agree that DRN would be a good next step to deal with the content part of this dispute. ] (]) 16:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::You are correct. I will notify wikiproject Christianity now. - ] (]) 16:54, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			== User:Jwa05002 and User:RowanElder Making Ableist Comments On WP:Killing of Jordan Neely Talk Page, Threats In Lead ==
	:::::On the Google Scholar search Ehrman states in Jesus Interrupted that Papias was rendering fourth-hand information and that there are multiple credibility issues with this information. The ] article states the 20th century consensus: there was no Hebrew original for the Gospel of Matthew. So, Ehrman isn't fringe, but he does not pretend that there were a Hebrew original for the Gospel of Matthew. ] (]) 17:40, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=RowanElder has apologised and their comments have been explained. Jwa05002 ignored the ] and has been indef'd with TPA revoked. Looks like we're done here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	::::::Yes, but what needs to be accounted for, speculative conjectures of modern scholars aside, is why Church Fathers from the earliest times right up to scholars at the end of the 19th century all thought there was a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. There is an abundance of primary literature attesting to that fact and many reliable secondary sources analyzing and summarizing that primary literature. Therefore, this should be discussed as a problem of WEIGHT rather than FRINGE. ] (]) 17:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			This occurred on the ], on the talk page section of ] @] decided they could say I couldn't ask for civility in a discussion after it became what I found uncivil. This discussion was already ended. They made comments that I couldn't ask for civility because apparently my userpage was uncivil. They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic and incompetent because they saw I mentioned I was Autistic on my page and then linked to the competence required article. {{rpa}} and then went on a rant about how Misplaced Pages shouldn't allow "severely mentally ill people edit" and how it's sad that Misplaced Pages has devolved to it. RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help. I shouldn't need to say more really. ] (]) 06:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::I agree, the term for that is ], and it is not only encyclopedic, but the stuff encyclopedias are made of: outlining the history of what people have thought, not only what some people say today. ] /]/ 17:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::There are multiple issues here. There is a difference between the claim that "there was a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew" and the "canonical ] was written in Hebrew". No one has presented any relevant scholar who believes that the canonical ] was written in Hebrew; probably because no relevant scholar actually believes that. The problem is that the material that is sought to be added is so misleading as to leave that impression. Even the different claim that the gospel to which Papias was referring existed and was written in Hebrew is a minority opinion (Casey's). Ask yourself: What is the Casey- and Edwards-sourced material even doing there? Is it illuminating the topic of the article (the canonical Hebrew of Gospel)? Or is it talking about the separate topic of the Hebrew gospel, and just muddying the waters?
			:Oh forgot to @] ] (]) 06:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) {{rpa}}
	:::::::The view of McGrew and McGrew that all the early external evidence agrees that the canonical Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew is completely fringe. Luckily, their view is not one of relevant scholars. They are not established critics of the New Testament. These remarks are merely incidental to their building of an Argument from Miracles (the subject of the paper). Neither are the editors of the volume (Craig and Moreland) established critics of the New Testament. And neither is the volume meant to be a source for New Testament criticism. The endeavour is metaphysical/theological in focus, not historical; and it is even one-sided at that (see Patrick Arnold's and Glenn M. Harden's reviews).
			*Akechi - typically, linking to specific ] rather than talk page sections is the best thing to do when making an ANI report; that is, linking {{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269116979}} and {{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269119175}}, which I assume are the comments you're referring to. Procedural niceties aside, I think you have a right to be upset - the comment by Jwa05002 seems to reflect a very ugly attitude toward mental illness, and RowanElder's remarks are incredibly patronizing - I don't think the comment in which {{they|RowanElder}} say {{tq|I hope Misplaced Pages can perhaps follow best practices from special education experts to deal with ways they may try to participate with disruptive incompetence. It's certainly not a personal attack to try to get people help, even when they take it as such and even react violently against the help as if it were an attack.}}{{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269120723}} could have been more perfectly calculated to infuriate its target if that were {{their|RowanElder}} intention, and when {{they|RowanElder}} commented {{tq|...you're probably deliberately victimizing people who share your struggle. It's sad to see, but again, I'm assuming good faith and I'm sympathetic rather than insulting here}}{{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269139598}} it does not at all come across like someone who is AGFing. I hope the community will agree that the conduct of these two users is not acceptable and make that clear to them. ] <small>(he/him · ] · ])</small> 07:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::What was said above that "The above scholars are talking about the origins of the ], that it was of composite scholarship of which Matthew was the fountainhead!" is just plain wrong. Only McGrew and McGrew are. --<font face="georgia">]&nbsp;</font><font face="georgia" size="1">(],&nbsp;])</font> 18:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			*:Who would have more relevant expertise than special education experts, here? Honestly? In dealing with good faith but disruptive contributions to something a lot like classwork?
			*:Please assume good faith for me as well, here. ] (]) 07:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::You cannot substitute your personal experience for ], nor can you analyze other editors, and especially you cannot resort to ] such as {{tq|disruptive incompetence}}. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I am definitely confused about this.
			*:::First, I have seen and been told "competence is required" many times and I generally assumed good faith constructive criticism and policy enforcement there rather than that the person invoking "competence is required" was making a personal attack. I have had a lot of trouble understanding what is regarded as incivility and not in this community.
			*:::Second, it seems prima facie that editors do analyze one another frequently, for instance I was just analyzed and will be further analyzed in this incident notice discussion so long as it continues, so I am confused what you mean here. ] (]) 20:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::] is an evaluation ''only'' when users have demonstrated repeated inability to edit collaboratively due to either refusal to read the rules, or inability comprehend them. It's not a blanket for you to insult a user by stating their edits are {{tq|disruptive incompetence}}.
			*::::Your second point is rhetorical wordplay, and does not reflect well on you. Knock it off. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I don't understand this and I'm not doing wordplay. I'm genuinely confused. But I'll knock it off anyway; I'm going to take a break. ] (]) 23:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::As a disabled person who currently works in special education, there are ''many'' reasons we wouldn't want "special education experts" (or their suggestions) dispatched to deal with a Certain Kind of Contributor. For one, it's a bit patronizing as described above--why do certain editors have to be dealt with under certain different people or rules? It's also worth noting that a lot of special education professionals, even ones who believe they're doing good things, often adopt practices that can be hurtful or problematic--this is all anecdotal, of course, but a number of my coworkers will miss very obvious potential causes of student distress just because they don't get distressed by the same thing, and at least one of my other coworkers was directly ableist to another of my coworkers behind her back without even realizing that's what she was doing. If there's anyone who can speak to best practices about interaction it's probably people with the disability in question (i.e. the ] stance), but to be honest, in practice, Misplaced Pages's existing guidelines and policies regarding user interaction and editing do a pretty good job of setting the ground rules and describing what you need to do to edit collaboratively in a productive way. - ] (]) 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::My comments did not communicate my intent well to this community, and I have apologized for that. I recognize these concerns, and if I had written longer comments, adding these concerns would have been among my first extensions of what I wrote. I was disruptively incompetent when it came to speaking to the sensitivities in this community. ] (]) 20:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(0) The discussion had seemed inconclusive to me rather than ended. My prior experience as an editor has been mostly on pages where weeks can go between talk messages easily, so if this was a mistake it was a newcomer's mistake of not understanding the different tempo on this page.
			:(1) I did not say @] could not ask for civility; I did find it ironic that they would ask for civility given that their userpage at that time seemed quite uncivil. I do think this indicates incompetence at judging civility and incivility and I, possibly erroneously, did not think it would be an aspersion or personal attack to say so on the basis of the immediate and policy-relevant (disruptive editing policy, explained by "competence is required") evidence. There is a "competence is required" principle and I have seen it invoked without violating the "no personal attacks" policy, though I'll be first to admit I don't understand the lines there very well.
			:(2) I did not endorse or "go along with" @]'s characterization of @] as schizophrenic: I passed over it in silence trying "not to take the bait" of what could have easily become personal attacks (not that I thought @] was making a personal attack there, more like personally despairing of the challenge of finding consensus about reality with self-identified schizophrenics and autistics). I flatly disagreed with @] that "this is what Misplaced Pages has become."
			:(3) I do endorse a general principle that when mental illness compromises an editor's competence, they should not edit Misplaced Pages in the domains in which they are thereby incompetent. I do believe "competence is required" and I don't know why mental illness would possibly be an exception. (I can't imagine what fun I might have had editing in the archaeoastronomy area recently if Misplaced Pages did allow that exception!)
			:(4) I do hope that the admins and arbs and the community as a whole will figure out good, humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd like everyone to everyone to note point 4, I think we should note the "humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages" part. ] (]) 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Should Misplaced Pages deal inhumanely with the mental ill? What is going on here? I am extremely lost. ] (]) 07:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::''You cannot diagnose other people as mentally ill''. That is a direct personal attack and can result in you being sanctioned. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Yes, of course: I did not call anyone mentally ill much less diagnose anyone. I pointed out that an editor self-identified as autistic without intending that to be an attack. And I won't even do that again, since "assuming good faith" is not extending to "assuming that references to mental illness are not necessarily attacks." Probably correctly, in retrospect for me! But the "assume good faith" policy has been something I've myself been incompetent to understand in its community-consensus application so far on Misplaced Pages, and so I was disruptively incompetent and I've both apologized for that and said I would avoid doing it again. ] (]) 19:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The user in question has described themselves as schizophrenic in previous posts. Schizophrenia by definition is a mental illness.
			:::::] ] (]) 20:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No I didn't you are thinking of another user I will not name. ] (]) 23:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{edit conflict}} (but I did the work, so I'm posting it) {{Non-admin comment|admin}} OP, you should provide diffs. You did link to the conversation, but every specific instance of untowardness you mention should be cited directly, as a courtesy to the admins' time. But I read the whole conversation and don't like it, so I did some legwork for you. {{tq|They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic}}. This edit was amended. {{tq|Jwa proceeded to come in and say I was a schizophrenic}}. {{tq|RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help}}.
			:I view assuming an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence to not actually be ], but I defer. I don't know that this warrants being at ANI or if it's just bad behavior, but the schizophrenia thing certainly deserves an apology from both of them. I'm not involved. Just providing diffs. POST EDIT CONFLICT: I also don't buy Rowan's argument that they weren't going along with the schizophrenia thing. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 07:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	I agree. For something to be a fringe theory, it must be A) FRINGE and B) a THEORY
			::"You don't buy it"? Where is the assumption of good faith here? ] (]) 07:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	====A) FRINGE====
			::I did not generically assume "an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence" but specifically suggested that their social judgment about particular incivility was incompetent in this case. I would never do the former, and frankly it is an aspersion to suggest I did. ] (]) 07:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel'' is not fringe as its existence is supported, not only by the above contested sources but also by older sources from Lessing to Ehrman.
			:::Are you saying I or other Autistic people for that matter can't pass social judgement? ] (]) 07:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::No. I thought you had already made a poor social judgment and I was looking for a good faith explanation that would not be a personal attack. I thought that, if you are really up front about your autism like on your userpage, then you would not feel being called autistic would be an insult. I would never have speculated about it if you were not already identified and I thought it was a misjudgment before I read your userpage. ] (]) 08:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You obviously have never met an Autistic person because calling someone out their disability and going "but don't worry though your just Autistic so you didn't do it in bad faith or anything". You don't think that sounds patronising or rude, you just didn't like my social judgement and saw my disability as a way to excuse yourself. ] (]) 08:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::"You obviously have never met an Autistic person" is wildly uncivil, ungrounded, personal attack. I am really lost here. ] (]) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sorry I didn't give diffs I'm kinda new to this stuff. Thank you for putting in the effort as well. ] (]) 07:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*], you are revealing a lot of personal information here about other editors that might need to be revision deleted. Please do not do that in the future. There are a lot of BLP violations in this discussion so far and assumptions about "mental illness" as well that are distressing to see from other editors. But, Akechi, I also notice that you are spending all of your talk on your User page and talk pages like ] instead of editing to improve articles. Your own User page states {{tq|I'd rather not edit Misplaced Pages and rather just discuss disputes, move requests and talk about usage of sources or claims of bias, I'm not very good at source editing}} which is not a good sign for an editor on this project. Jwa05002 is also spending all of their time on ] so maybe you both could use a partial block from this talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	,
			*:I wouldn't mind that actually, also please do remove the mentions of me saying who the user who had schizophrenia was, I realise now that it's not my place to talk about. ] (]) 07:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I am also looking to get into editing articles, though I do not have the time to be a full time editor. ] (]) 07:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Those comments by @] and @] are beyond the pale. Stating that mental illness or neurodivergence is a ] issue should never be tolerated, particularly given it's highly likely that a lot of our community are neurodiverse or mentally ill. Blocks should follow for both editors. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It's also surreal to see the comments about autism in this discussion, you do know, I hope, that we have probably hundreds of active editors on this project that are autistic or are on the spectrum. It's not rare to be an autistic editor on Misplaced Pages. Not everyone chooses to put that fact on their User page but that doesn't erase their presence. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Given that the editors seem a lot more interested in arguing on talk pages, I'd suggest there's some ] going on. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I made exactly this point that there are a lot on Misplaced Pages in one of my comments about a likely unintended consequence of @]'s incivility on their userpage, which, I quote, included "I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site." ] (]) 07:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The full quote is "I Autistic and pansexual (I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site.).". And clearly being Autistic upset a couple of people. ] (]) 07:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::And no the lack of am is not a typo. ] (]) 07:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Please assume good faith! Autism did not upset me and nor did pansexuality. But "I hope I upset people who do not share my values" cannot possibly be civil discourse. ] (]) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It's not my values it's my existence, being Autistic or Pansexual isn't values, it's just how I am. ] (]) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::At ] you wrote: "{{tq|I'm going to assume good faith and cite that user page: that this user is most likely a self-described autistic acting incompetently rather than in bad faith. Unfortunately, competence is required, see ]}}". I don't see any other interpretation for that than an act with malice directed towards a neurodiverse editor because of their neurodivergence. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::How about this: I was baffled by the level of incivility and I thought this would be an honorable way out of a bad look for Akechi, since I don't stigmatize the social blindness of the autistic? It was a horrible, horrible mistake but I thought that ''because'' autism is so well accepted here, including by myself, that this would be a place I could make a narrow recommendation: "hey, this matter of incivility is a social misjudgment of a kind that probably does have a good faith explanation." ] (]) 08:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::You are assuming I can't make social judgements, that seems uncivil to me. I have just same right to make social judgements as you do. ] (]) 08:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I was not assuming that you could not. I saw what I thought was a terrible misjudgment that @] was struggling to see in any good faith way and suggesting a way to recover good faith, but without excusing the brazen incivility I thought I saw. ] (]) 08:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I did not say mental illness is in itself a WP:CIR issue. I said that, at times, particular mental illness will imply particular WP:CIR issues. What in the world is going on? ] (]) 07:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Jwa heavily implied and you didn't call him out. ] (]) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've quoted exactly what you said above just now. You don't have much wiggle room there. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, autism is specifically correlated with social blindnesses. It's definitionally constitutive. That means that specifically for judgments of tone, like the one Akeshi was implicitly making, autism seemed relevant – and ''exculpatory''! ] (]) 08:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's not social blindnesses it's a sometimes struggle to pick up on social cues (Autistic people display a range of symptoms and some differ), also cool you do think I can't make social judgements. ] (]) 08:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Your ill-founded judgments aren't doing you any favours here. You should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi and then having the good sense to shut up before someone starts a block discussion. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Clearly, it is not doing me favors and I am deeply deeply confused. I wouldn't know what to apologize for, at this point. ] (]) 08:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::For starters, for implying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors. I'm going to assume good faith that that may not have been your intent, but it's ''absolutely'' the way literally everybody else has taken it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you: I apologize completely for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by everyone else as saying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors because they were autistic. ] (]) 08:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::(I repeated a variant of this apology below, more personally to @], and Akechi graciously accepted the apology there. Thanks again @].) ] (]) 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:It seems to me that we are dealing with the intersection of two issues here. The content issue is that Jordan Neely was misbehaving severely on a subway car, and the intervention of Daniel Penny lead, quite sadly, to his death. Since Penny was acquitted, ] policy forbids Misplaced Pages editors from describing Penny as a "bad person" or implying guilt. The second issue is how editors should interact during content disputes with other editors who self-describe on their user page as autistic and having ADHD and being pansexual and an agent of chaos. Personally, I do not care about "pansexual" in the slightest because I could not care less what editors do or don't in bed or on the sofa (couch). Autistic editors and editors with ADHD are perfectly welcome to edit Misplaced Pages as long as they comply with our policies and behavioral guidelines, just as every other editor is expected to do. If I happened to state "I am not autistic" on my user page (which I don't), then I would not expect any harsher treatment for misconduct than another editor who claims to be autistic. Since all editors should be treated the same within reason, I do not see the benefit of these declarations. They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment, but editors are perfectly free to make such declarations as long as they understand that other editors are likely to read them and draw inferences, stated openly or not. As for the inherent declaration in their username that the editor is {{tpq|The Agent Of Chaos}}, I find that far more troubling than the other self-declarations. The most generous interpretation is that the editor is trying too hard to be ironic and amusing, like the new hipster pizzeria in my home town that actually makes great innovative pizzas. But combined with the other self-declarations, I am confronted with legitimate questions about what this editor's goals and intentions actually are here, and I should remind the editor that actual agents of chaos get blocked pretty promptly on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	*,
			*::Do you really think that me calling myself an Agent Of Chaos is a serious thing and not just a reference. ] (]) 08:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Like it's my name, I know there is an editor that has The Liar at the end of their username do we assume they are one. ] (]) 08:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'm just stating my mental disabilities dude why is this a problem, are you gonna get mad at my userbox that says the same thing. ] (]) 08:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::{{u|Akechi The Agent Of Chaos}}, I think that you have dug a hole for yourself, and instead of climbing out, you are digging ever deeper. In the simplest terms, this is a project to build an encyclopedia. Why should anyone reading this thread be reassured that you share that goal? ] (]) 08:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::What does that have anything to do with this discussion other than you trying excuse others of wrongdoings. ] (]) 08:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::@], the behaviour of all involved parties in under the microscope when you make reports here. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Fair, I am getting into article editing, also how old is my account, what like a few months old, this is getting to ] stuff. This sounds like an excuse but I am trying to be a helpful member of the community and I'm kinda scared that I will mess things up with source editing. ] (]) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::I'm going to stop talking now. ] (]) 08:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::For the admins' consideration, this reply is (I hope) partly because of me . So it sounds like they're willing to take advice. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::If you want to be helpful, start ] or review the ] looking for vandalism that needs reverting (make sure you set the filters appropriately) or anything that directly assists with the quality of articles. If you don't do at least something to help with building the project, it won't take long for others to decide that you are ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::Thanks to Closhund's suggestions I actually started copy editing, it's not that scary anymore. I think I was just overwhelmed with editing massive cyclopedia. ] (]) 08:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::This is an interesting point - I posted a userbox saying I have ADHD, along with liking videogames and cats, as I see it as a part of me that I absolutely hated for decades until I was diagnosed recently. I posted it as a way to perhaps ask for a little patience, as I might be more prone to long posts or changing my edits after having another thought or idea (impulse control is an issue with ADHD). In my case, I intended it as an explanation, ''not'' an excuse. I still really and expect to be treated the same as anyone else.
			*::Nevertheless, I angered someone earlier, who weaponised my ADHD and used it to claim I was incompetent and shouldn't be here. Quite a few admins were singled out in those posts, but they specifically focused on my ADHD for an inordinate amount of time. They were also cut and pasted into other people's Talk pages.
			*::Whilst I'm well aware this was a malicious user and am ''not'' ashamed of my ADHD, nor will I hide it (I've done that for far too long), I'm now thinking I should remove those boxes - this is the internet, you can't tell what other people are thinking and it's easy to misunderstand others.
			*::Neurodivergence is a relatively-new condition (compared to depression, anxiety etc. it's only really been accepted in the past few decades), so there are a lot of misunderstandings and stigma attached to it. The prevalence of self-diagnosis and misinformation on social media doesn't help, as there are those who do want attention and/or use it as an excuse.
			*::I'm not sure what I'm going to do to be honest. I might remove the userboxes since they're apparently doing more harm than good. I've got to work now, but I'll decide later & just wanted to put this view forward. ] (]) 08:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::BTW Apologies if this is now off-topic, the thread was moving really fast! ] (]) 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::], userboxes are a personal decision you have to make. Just know that many editors don't make use of userboxes and could very well share interests and conditions with those editors who do post them. It's self-identification and that can change over time. I think the one thing you can't control is how editors who encounter a self-identification will perceive you. That fact has caused some editors to simply blank their User pages so they don't have to worry about how bits of data about themselves could lead to other editors' judging them. But other individuals want to put all of their cards on the table. It's your call and just know, you can change your mind about it any time you want. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] Exactly right - I was aware of the negative perception, but someone who's looking for a reason to dislike another person will usually pick up on stuff like that first since it's an easy target. My workplace has been incredibly supportive so I've been letting my guard down, but that's not really a good idea online. Plus the userboxes were all shiny & colourful so I headed straight for them without thinking!
			:::::I don't know if I'll keep the ADHD box since it may be doing more harm than good but the cat one will stay for now, since my furry demonic familiar demands it. ] (]) 14:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::With due respect, Cullen, I very strongly disagree with you when you say {{tq|"They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment"}}. This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way and arguably a failure to AGF. Since neurodivergent people are quite literally ''defined'' by their neurotypes, this is no more or less self-identifying than, for example, gender orientation declarations; both are useful for editors wishing to meet, work with, and, importantly, take advice from editors who share identities and thus can relate. I second what Liz says below.
			:::I have no comment on this particular situation otherwise as an apology appears to have been made. ] ] 10:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If you don't mind, I've apologized and I meant it, and I'm trying to understand what I could have done differently at a finer grain than "never engage about any issue of mental health with respect to competence on Misplaced Pages again," which will be my safety-first default from here until I do get better understanding.
			::::This reply confused me, and if I can ask without being seen to be hunting for chinks in armor or trying to litigate after the issue is resolved or anything like that, @], was this meant to be a disagreement that {{tq|They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment}}, i.e., a disagreement that that particular form of ableist prejudice exists? Or is it a disagreement with the prejudice, and thus an implicit attribution of the prejudice to @]? The latter did not seem like the most natural good faith reading of @]'s comment, but the former doesn't make sense to me together with {{tq|This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way}} since it doesn't seem sensible that recognizing the fact of ableist prejudice would be in itself ableist (it seems the opposite, that recognizing such prejudices exist is often part of fighting such prejudices).
			::::I've been incompetent at judging what people would interpret of my posts so far, and if I'm being incompetent in this interpretation in this reply in some blameworthy way I'll happily apologize for this as well, but I'm genuinely lost and would appreciate some more light on this if it's not a pain to provide it. ] (]) 15:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::To my understanding, Cullen328 seemed to be stating (without referring to specific evidence, so it's unclear what their supporting evidence for this is) that editors who see someone have a userbox that refers to their disability assume the disabled editor is looking for special treatment. I think Jasper Deng's response was suggesting the following: people who assume disabled editors are looking for special treatment because they disclosed their disability are not assuming good faith of those disabled editors and might be doing something ableist by making that assumption. For a lot of people, sharing that they're disabled is no different than sharing that they're gay or a woman, and most people would not look at someone disclosing one of ''those'' and also think the editor is looking for preferential treatment. My understanding might be wrong, but it's what I'm getting from this interaction. Does that make sense? - ] (]) 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I do think that makes sense, insofar as I do definitely understand how the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" would be judged to be ableist, but it doesn't address my confusion. This was what I meant by "the latter" of the two interpretive alternatives in my comment just before this. My confusion was about why @] would have said that together with {{tq|I very strongly disagree with you}} when I didn't see @] necessarily endorsing the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" in their original comment, just the belief "they are often perceived as claims for preferential treatment," which would not itself imply @] has or agrees with that perception. ] (]) 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Thanks for your prior reply, and don't worry about this one after all. I'm going to stop trying to engage here and stop trying to figure out my confusion, I've had enough. ] (]) 23:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] To be entirely fair, the phrase "Agent of Chaos" is fairly common in various forms of media and seems more likely to be a reference to something (], or , or , etc.) than an indicator that the user is acting in bad faith. ] (]) 04:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{u|CambrianCrab}}, I readily agree that the "agent of chaos" concept is used in certain genres of fiction. But we are not writing a work of fiction here. We are writing an encyclopedia and anyone who actually behaves like a agent of chaos gets blocked promptly and indefinitely. So, I do not think that it is unreasonable to express concern about an editor choosing to portray themself that way. ] (]) 05:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Would you like me to change my name if it concerns you that much ] (]) 06:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I get like username policy and names shouldn't imply intent to troll and stuff but if we actually enforced that tons of people would have to change their usernames, once again I know a user that has The Liar at the end of their name but they aren't one. I feel like the most reasonable assumption is that my username is either a joke or a reference, as it is both. I feel like it's not assuming of good faith to think I'm an actual agent of chaos just because my username says I am. ] (]) 06:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Cullen, I think this is reaching. Just as my name is a play on words, Agent of Chaos is also a tongue in cheek username that does not strike me as indicative of the user's intent to cause harm. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I agree this is reaching and one thing i hate is when people try to find something completely unrelated and throw a fit about it ]] 20:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Cyberwolf is fiction so… ]] 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Mental illness can create a competency issue in pretty much any aspect of life. For example, a person can be found too mentally ill to stand trial in a court. I’m not sure why wikipedia should be an exception.
			::It’s unfortunate and sad for sure, but it’s simply a fact that some people are too mentally ill to be objective, reasonable, and yes even competent.
			::Obviously there are varying degrees of mental illness, and some are able to control it better than others. But there should definitely be a threshold where reasonable can say “this person is too mentally ill to edit” ] (]) 18:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that's not a judgement any complete stranger can make over the internet, including on Misplaced Pages. You could definitely call attention to disputed content or problematic conduct without making the assumption that it's connected to the disability of someone you do not know personally based on what you think you know about a specific editor, their disability, or how the latter affects the former. People can definitely come to consensuses that users cannot edit constructively without needing to declare that it's ''because they have a specific disability''. Connecting the two like that is very likely to instead come across as (and/or ''be'') a personal attack. - ] (]) 22:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@] I apologize completely and unreservedly for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by you (and everyone else who has said something here so far, but especially by you because your feelings were the ones hurt) as saying that you were less competent than other editors because you were autistic.
	*
			:That seems important to say before any finer-grained points. I am sorry for that, completely and unreservedly. ] (]) 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thank you, I accept your apology ] (]) 08:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The bottom line is that '''every single editor''' is expected to fully follow our behavioral guidelines, no matter what they believe about their own mental health or what diagnoses that professionals have made. I was feeling quite depressed about ten day ago for reasons that have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, and I have been climbing out of it without letting it affect my editing, because my Misplaced Pages editing gives me solace. If any editor is confident that they can edit productively despite a mental health challenge, then go for it. If your specific challenge impedes useful collaborative editing,then take a break until you feel better. ] (]) 08:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I will keep that in mind ] (]) 08:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Once Jwa receives this I won't get involved. ] (]) 08:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Thanks for that grace. ] (]) 08:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::It's good to see a proper apology here. I must admit that I'm so used to seeing non-apology apologies that that is what I was expecting. ] (]) 09:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I've meant it from the beginning that I didn't intend to use @]'s autism as a disqualification of them. I considered the incivility disqualifying and I considered their comments about civility to show additional disqualifying incompetence of social judgment, and then I intended to highlight their self-identified autism as a possible way of reconciling the incivility and incompetence with good faith to cool and stop the uncivil running conflict with @] (who I thought was also responsible for incivility and making poor judgment calls, such as moving from the specific/local frustration about incompetence and incivility (actually blameworthy) to general/global frustration with neurodivergence (not blameworthy)).
			*::::This I now see was naive and strongly against community norms, in particular viewed as unacceptably patronizing and ableist in itself, and so I'm not going to do that again here and I do find it easy to make a complete and genuine apology for having broken those norms.
			*::::In my friendships and collaborations with autistic people in offline life, I will continue to do what has made my friendships and collaborations with them work so far. This sometimes does include very direct conversation about when to step away from fights when someone is missing social cues, but in my context it is rarely blamably patronizing or ableist to do so since there's an already strong expectation of respect for neurodivergence (and in the rare cases it is blamably patronizing or ableist, I also listen to that and stop as quickly as possible, like I am here). One of my main takeaways here is that on Misplaced Pages, the general patterns of unwanted but de facto incivility mean that there is not strong expectation that people do already respect the neurodivergent, in fact the reverse: a pretty strong expectation that communication that could be disrespect for the neurodivergent is disrespect for the neurodivergent. That seems true (that too many people don't respect neurodivergence) and important, and insofar as I wasn't already seeing it, it was because I was tripping over the "assume good faith" policy trying not to assume others were prejudiced against the neurodivergent and/or disrespecting the neurodivergent (since that seemed like it would be assuming bad faith).
			*::::I don't yet understand how to reconcile "assume good faith" and "proactively defend people from systemic prejudices" very well. Off of Misplaced Pages I just don't assume good faith! It's something I think a lot of contemporary American political discourse has been choking on, and I think it'll be worth my time to continue thinking about it with this additional information from this experience. ] (]) 16:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Hey to be honest this is a model example on how to apologize on and explain your behavior and how you want to improve here. This is what we need more of. I read through your apology several times and can’t detect bad faith from you. You’ve done well and I’ll admit working with neurodivergent individuals can be/will be challenging w/o pretty much whole life experience. I’ve made mistakes. We all will. :3 ]] 17:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Thank you, this means a lot. I was worried it was just being taken as more bad faith when I wasn't getting other replies earlier. I've had a terrible time here and I need a break. ] (]) 23:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::No you did great ]] 23:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::Thanks. Really, I do mean it. Still, on my own terms I don't feel at all good and I should take some time away. ] (]) 23:58, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::wikipedians who are in this big of ani and are the subjects, should take a big break this is the most scary stressful and some what notorious page ]] 00:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:While I can't comment on @] as I've not interacted with them, I will note that I already reported @] concerning (in part) some of these issues about a month ago. People wanting to judge any misbehavior, with full context, may want to read ] where I engaged with them on it, as well as ], which has specific diffs (all of this was when my username was LaughingManiac).
	*
			:For full disclosure, since I was fairly heavily involved at ] and promised to disengage to avoid ], I'll attempt to refrain from getting too deep into this particular discussion. It also bears mentioning that I ended up retracting the report myself, as can be seen above. Part of it was based on my own experience as a mentally ill person and expectations concerning how the topic be handled, and I found that Jwa05002 made a valid point that personal experience cannot dictate neutral Misplaced Pages editing, something which seemed supported by ], specifically the last sentence. So, I closed the report (with the - ] - mutual understanding that there would be no more ] on Jwa05002's part), and disengaged.
			:I can say that my personal view of this subject is that there were problematic undertones both in how Jordan Neely's mental illness had been weaponized by Penny's defense, as well as in how it was being discussed on the talk page. I found Jwa05002's own mentions and utilization of the topic very offensive, to me personally, which is (in part) why I disengaged, since because I was personally affected in this case, I felt it would be difficult for me to participate neutrally. On a semi-related point, I do feel that Misplaced Pages in general would benefit from stricter guidelines concerning "personal experiences" beyond merely dismissing them, given that the manner in which some of the content in cases like these is treated, as well as the overt and rampant generalizations or prejudiced discourse against already vulnerable populations, may well discourage marginalized editors from contributing. But, this is ultimately a different topic that would be better suited for ].
			:I will also mention, however, that it'd be rather disappointing in my view if (which to me reads like a personal attack, never even mind that the notion that "severely mentally ill people" shouldn't be allowed to participate on Misplaced Pages is deeply troubling to me) is allowed to stand.
			:{{underline|EDIT: For ''fuller'' disclosure, I will note that I was pinged to this discussion by Akechi mentioning me, in diffs ] I'm unsure whether this counts as ]? Hopefully not - my intent here is merely to provide context concerning a dispute in which I was originally involved in, which seems relevant, if not identical, to this one in my eyes.}} ] (]) 17:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I know little about the Jordan Neely case, and have not investigated it in particular, but have to give a few words about Misplaced Pages editing by people who are mentally ill or neurodivergent. I have a mental illess (I don't know if it's severe enough for {{u|Jwa05002}}, but I lost about half my working life because of it), and, largely through that, I know plenty of people with autism, ADHD and schizophrenia. I don't choose to display my mental status on my user page, but reveal it when relevant. I just checked and a have made nearly 49,000 edits since 2007. I don't think anyone has spotted my mental condition in all that time, because I take reponsibility for my editing and do not edit when I'm not up to it. If all the people with a mental illess or neurodivergence left Misplaced Pages it would be a much poorer place, and might not even exist. Some people with those conditions are very good editors, and some are not so good, just like "normal" people. I hope we can accept such people just as we can accept people of different genders, nationalities, sexual preferences etc. ] (]) 18:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There are absolutely varying degrees of mental illness and it wasn’t my intention to imply anyone who suffers from a mental illness should not edit Misplaced Pages pages.
			::in this case, my comment was directed at one specific editor.
			::its unfortunate for sure, but some people simply aren’t capable of being objective and reasonable enough to edit pages.
			::this admin page is full of examples of users being blocked from editing because they simply aren’t able to handle the responsibility that comes with it. ] (]) 18:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Have I displayed any of that because you've kinda been urging me to stop being on the talk page for a while because of my extreme bias, which I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. This just seems like you found a more reasonable way to try and get me to stop editing. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@], rather than defending your comments on the article's talk page you should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I went back and looked through that entire discussion (about schizophrenia) and I see that there were 2 different editors besides me during the conversation.
			::::so I do apologize for conflating the two of you (Akechi and whoever the other editor was)
			::::I honestly did not realize Akechi was not the editor who volunteered they had a schizophrenia diagnosis. That’s for sure my mistake. Akechi, I apologize for implying you’d been diagnosed with a mental illness. ] (]) 03:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Cool, do you also wanna apologise for the comments you made about severely mentally ill people, as well as just assuming I was because of my Autism. You could also just apologise generally to the user with schizophrenia they should see it, because honestly it's kind of disgusting to imply someone isn't competent because of their disabilities. ] (]) 05:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles.
			::::::Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles. ] (]) 05:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That is not you're decision to make and mental illnesses can vary in condition, we judge people's actions not how they were born. ] (]) 06:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Jwa05002, I know many people with schizophrenia who would be perfectly capable of writing Misplaced Pages articles. We block/ban people because of what they do on Misplaced Pages, not because of whether they happen to have a broken leg, cancer or schizophrenia. ] (]) 08:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Just stating one more time that I never agreed with this position. ] (]) 23:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, just in case anyone finds it meaningful I'll reaffirm my commitment to these principles as well. I specifically avoided "severe enough" language because I don't think any "overall amount" would be relevant. I spoke about impacts on specific, relevant domains. Someone can be dealing with crippling catatonic panic attacks or having outright hallucinations offline and also still be participating in Misplaced Pages constructively and valuably when they're up for it. All my evidence is that both have in fact happened in real cases, constructively and for the best. My primary principle here was that editors should not contribute where they are disruptively incompetent for any reason, with mental illness simply not a special reason (and similarly for forms of neurodivergence I don't actually like to conflate with flat "mental illness", such as many forms of autism spectrum conditions). ] (]) 19:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I just came across this and i would like to say excuse my language what the fuck is this behavior. The correlations in the talk page are absolutely ridiculous and are all blatant attacks. I’m ignoring if akechi is right or wrong that doesn’t matter(to me). These attacks are not only focused on akechi but all neurodivergent contributors to Misplaced Pages. It’s disheartening that this happens. What does schizophrenia have to do with a users ability to edit. This place is for everyone who wants to contribute (within policy of course). those who degrade users because of who they are, they are trying to push people who they deem not to be “normal”. The fucking disrespect makes my blood boil. As someone who made a mistake which was directly related to my mental problems. If i was attacked for That behavior you bet I wouldn’t have held back my anger as much as akechi did. As a neurodivergent person and one who takes care of other neurodivergents. These people are more than helpful to the Misplaced Pages they all have certain content hyperfixations planes, military, cars, racing, boats you name it. Everyone has a purpose here. Shame on those who think otherwise ]] 16:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Also if you would like @] please explain why you think schizophrenia prohibits users from being competent.<br>In my experience with a schizophrenic friend most of his schizophrenia is just seeing scary things. He is smart he does well in school. Tell me why he couldn’t contribute ]] 19:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Block proposal - Jwa05002 ===
			{{atop|I have Indefinitely blocked Jwa05002 per consensus here. ]] 18:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			I propose an indef block for Jwa05002 as consequence of their statements at ] where they wrote <blockquote>Agreed. @Akechi The Agent of Chaos self admittedly (in these discussions) suffers from schizophrenia. I have the deepest sympathy for anybody with mental health issues, but that doesn’t mean severely mentally ill people should be editing Misplaced Pages articles. It’s exactly as you stated, competence is required. But….i guess this is what Misplaced Pages has devolved into. It’s sad really"</blockquote> and then at ] where they just wrote <blockquote>I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles.
			Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles.</blockquote>
			All of the ], bar one which was an edit they shouldn't have been making per ], are at ] and ] and it therefore appears that the editor is ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 05:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Not sure if I can place any votes because of my involvement but @] has in my opinion been trying to scare some user away from comment on ], including me where they said (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Killing_of_Jordan_Neely#c-Jwa05002-20250101224800-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20241230034200)
	*
			:"Based on this comment and many others I’ve seen you make here, you are far too personally biased (for whatever reason) to be making edits to this Misplaced Pages article. You are simply unable to be objective about it. Misplaced Pages should not exist as a forum for editors to grind their personal axes." in what could be seen as an attempt to scare me away from things. I don't know what Jwa was talking about because if you look at my comments on the talk page it was mostly trying to explain ] to people. The personal bias I can only assume was my disagreeing with them on the move request, as that is all I can think of. ] (]) 11:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as mover. I think Jwa's comments speak for themselves. '']''<sup>]</sup> 11:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' if clue is not promptly obtained. That's not an acceptable statement to make against your fellow editors. --] 14:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' This is entirely inappropriate and disruptive comportment. ] (]) 15:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''' per my comment above ]] 16:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Jwa's statement is unconscionably biased against editors with psychiatric issues, and such discrimination should not be tolerated. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	*
			*'''Support''' - ] is something that is, and should be, an immediate indefinite block ''at minimum''. ] is also something that is best responded to with a summary indef. I don't see any reason why Jwa is still unblocked while this ban discussion is ongoing. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 00:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - what ever happened to discussing ]? I'm with Jéské Couriano, why is Jwa still unblocked?--] 00:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strongly support''' - I'm still getting a weird feeling to the rest of the discussion unrelated to Jwa, but Jwa's interactions feel very clear cut, particularly considering they basically doubled down when they started discussing here at ANI. Feels like obvious grounds for a block and/or CBAN. - ] (]) 00:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Query''' is this proposing an ''indefinite block'' (as the section header says) or a '']'' (as the text says)? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Per ], {{tq|q=y|Editors who are indefinitely blocked by community consensus, or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community, are considered "banned by the Misplaced Pages community".}} So wouldn't it be "both"? ] (]) 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:@], I've updated the wording to specify an indef block. But as ER states above the result would be the same. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Query''' Should we let Jwa know that there is a indef block proposal, like on his talk page, it seems we haven't given him any heads up and I think we probably should. ] (]) 09:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*
			::I just left a message on his talk page just giving him a heads up. ] (]) 09:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You already let them know they were being discussed here at the very start of this conversation. '']''<sup>]</sup> 09:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' unless they unequivocally recant this view, because at the end of the day competence is not decided just by what neurotype one is. I should note that if, as it currently seems, the user has left the project, this is going to be mostly an academic exercise.--] ] 10:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Yeah I did notice they just stop responding to anything, it seems they had a mission and just decided nope out I guess. ] (]) 10:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			==== Addition- policy revival and reform ====
	*
			] is a proposal that failed in 2009 and I have seen too much of this happening which just goes underwhelmingly to Wp:personal attacks. But these aren’t personal only the discrimination against one person is discrimination against the users of Misplaced Pages who were basically attacked. I think its needed as the everyday change of politics in the us. The draft will be remade of course. This is just my test the waters on potential proposals which I would like to make. ]] 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] would be the place for future policy proposals, but we already have precedent with treating discriminatory speech (aka misgendering and racial slurs) as ]. Users have been blocked on that basis over the last few years, wouldn't hurt to codify it. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*
			::Yeah ]] 17:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If you get the ball rolling at VPP I imagine you'd find a lot of people who would like to improve Misplaced Pages's systematic handling of discriminatory actions. ] (]) 17:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I’ll start to draft a thing for village pump tonight thanks ]] 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::] Been working on this dis regard my horrible format its word vomit ]] 20:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That is what made my blood boil with these interactions that they weren't just personal attacks but descrimination against a whole class of Misplaced Pages editors. I think policy here would be most welcome. Please ping me when you put up a proposal. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::] Here ]] 16:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Talk page misuse (Jwa05002)===
	*
			{{atop|Talk-page access yanked by Moneytrees. ] (]) 05:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			says it all. Talk page access needs to be yanked.
			It's sad though that they misread "<disorder> is characterized by <x, y, z, ...>" as "everyone with <disorder> has all of <x, y, z...> to the point that it makes them incompetent to edit". --] ] 04:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	*
			:@], please see above comment by Jasper. '']''<sup>]</sup> 05:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	*
			::Oh brother…. ]] 05:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			{{abot}}
			==Extended confirmed gaming by Sairamb1407==
	*
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{Noping|Sairamb1407}} has made and many non substantial edits to other articles and have gamed their way into the extended confirmed user group. in order to edit the EC protected ] , consider revoking their ECR until they make 500 legitimate edits. - ] (]) 09:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I note that this editor made their 502nd edit to an extended confirmed protected article. ] (]) 09:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have revoked their EC permission. ] (]) 09:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Their talk page is full of warnings saying they may be blocked without further warning if they do some vandalism again. That user has only been here for a month... Just FYI. ] (]) 10:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I've blocked the user as a sock. The other account has a thread here as well (lower down).--] (]) 21:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			=== User:Rahulbasuzoom not being here and potentially other issues ===
	*
			{{atop|status=Sock blocks|1=Socks tossed in the dryer. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Reporting on {{Userlinks|Rahulbasuzoom}}. Almost their entire editing history consists of overlinking. They have been warned for this but still continue with this behavior even today by adding wikilinks to countries, words like "musician", more countries while making one edit per country, rivers where there's already a wikilink in the preceding sentence, the "British Empire" on a series that takes place in contemporary UK? etc.
			I think the user is trying to get to extended-confirmed status for Indian topics by gaming the system. Aside from the editing pattern, my suspicion is based on the fact that they made an edit request in that direction (if I accidentally got the wrong diff here, then the next diff should be the right one). When seeing that edit request, I also noticed another one on that talk page by {{Userlinks|Sairamb1407}} (who recently got their extended-confirmed status revoked for gaming the system). I had undone several cases of Rahulbasuzoom's overlinking, so I saw the history of some of the pages they edited and that's why Sairamb1407's username struck me as familiar because those two editors appear to have quite the overlap in editing interests and editing patterns, particularly on ] (where they made their edit requests) and the sub-channels of Republic TV. Examples: Republic Kannada, Republic Bangla, Republic Bharat. I suspect an undisclosed COI for both users, if not a case of meat puppetry or sock puppetry. Some of their edits have been removed for being puff pieces. (Sorry I didn't think of saving a diff for that and it's tricky to get one after I started writing this report, because I'm on mobile.)
			This is my first report, sorry if made any mistakes. ] (]) 21:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Here are examples of unsourced puff pieces added by Rahulbasuzoom for your convenience:. ] (]) 21:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Just a quick comment: Of all these books, only 3 date from the last half-century, which indicates that they're not quite the current state of play. The most recent is ], whose most recent book, ''The Secret Legacy of Jesus'', "offers the thesis that the Judaistic teachings of Jesus were passed in underground fashion from groups such as the Nazarenes and Ebionites to the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, via the Cathars and Freemasons" (that's from his Misplaced Pages entry). I have doubts that Professor Butz is quite within the academic mainstream. ] (]) 03:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			::And here are diffs for Sairamb1407's adding of puff pieces to the same article: . ] (]) 21:50, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::How can you claim that a formerly standard theory is now fringe? I'd understand if it were geocentrism but this is literary theory, not hard science. It is at least a "former standard theory". ] ] 06:59, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			*Both accounts are now blocked as socks of each other.--] (]) 21:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::A theory is fringe if it has no significant backing by reliable sources. Many theories which were previously standard (or even still are in the sense that many people subscribe to them) now have no backing in reliable sources for New Testament scholarship. For example, it was a standard view that Matthew the disciple of Jesus wrote the Gospel of Matthew. Now no reliable source supports that theory; so how could it not be fringe? --<font face="georgia">]&nbsp;</font><font face="georgia" size="1">(],&nbsp;])</font> 07:30, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	::::I agree fully, ] (]) 10:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			== Me (DragonofBatley) ==
	====B) Theory====
	Matthew's Hebrew gospel is not a theory but a "statement of fact". Virtually every piece of external evidence we have from the first few centuries regarding the authorship of the Gospels concurs that Matthew's Gospel was first written in a Hebrew dialect. The widespread agreement of early sources on a number of points is truly remarkable and "cannot be brushed aside, particularly since the discrepancies among these sources regarding other points strongly suggest that they are not, for the most part, simply copying one another." In total there are more than 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that this ''Hebrew Gospel'' was in wide circulation. Twelve of the Early Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. No ancient writer either Christian or Non Christian challenged these facts. (Edwards 2009 , &
			It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save {{Ping|KJP1}} the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. ] (]) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	This "statement of fact" may be contested. Scholars can debate whether or nor the "Gospel of Matthew" was a translation of the "Hebrew Gospel". They may argue that the ''Hebrew Gospel'' is the but they cannot say ''Matthew's Hebrew'' Gospel is theoretical.
			:Notifying other editors from the wider discussions {{Ping|PamD}}, {{Ping|Noswall59}}, {{Ping|Rupples}}, {{Ping|Crouch, Swale}}, {{Ping|KeithD}}, {{Ping|SchroCat}}, {{Ping|Tryptofish}}, {{Ping|Cremastra}} and {{Ping|Voice of Clam}}. If I missed anyone else sorry ] (]) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: ]. ]&nbsp;] 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of ], ], ] and now redirected ] and ]. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. ] (]) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. ] (]) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Also this discussion: ]. ] (]/]) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.
			:I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. ] is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, ''then'' we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.
			:I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to ] and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.
			:Happy editing, <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --] (]) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing ] (]) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@]: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? ] (]/]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? ] (]) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as ]. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. ] (]/]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? ] (]/]) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. ] (]) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. ] (]) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. ''']''' (]) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. ] (]) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::These are good points.
			:::However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI''-like'' thing may be in order. ], anyone? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course ] is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? ] (]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break ] and ]. ] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add ] (]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{ec}} The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I think it's the latter. @]: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. ] (]/]) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. ] (]) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. ''']''' (]) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah, I agree to that. @] if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to ] but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? ] (]) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::] is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in ]. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely ]. ''']''' (]) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC ] (]) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? ]&nbsp;] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. ] (]) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? ]&nbsp;] 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? ] (]/]) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@]: while you're taking a breather as @] suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? ] (]/]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::], ], ] (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example ] and ]. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for ] and the ]. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. ] (]) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? ] (]/]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near ]. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the ] commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings ] (]) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- ] (]) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*DragonofBatley has agreed to a ] to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? ] (]/]) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --] (]) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. ] (]/]) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. ''']''' (]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. ] (]/]) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --] (]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- ] (]) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::{{outdent|0}} Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. ] (]/]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? ] (]/]) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*@]: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? ] (]/]) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for ]. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. ] (]) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			* I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see '''any''' new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. ] (]/]) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::{{ec}} {{u|KJP1}} has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - ] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you ]. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. ] (]) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the ]erifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? ] (]/]) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::{{ec}} Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - ] (]) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. ] (]) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). {{u|KJP1}} provided a for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - ] (]) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they ''understand'' source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. ]&nbsp;] 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements ''and'' that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - ] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::That's a great point, you're right, @]. ]&nbsp;] 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::I responded to @] earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with ] ] and ]. Also conflict edit was not directed at @], there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. ] (]) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's ] was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from ] and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.
			*:::And also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. ]] 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}
			The issues are ] and source integrity; ]; and the suggestion of ] while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.
			Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, ], which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises ] issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.
	Therefore WP Fringe Theory cannot apply. - ] (]) 19:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	:Well, not quite. The "fact" is not that the Hebrew Gospel existed; rather, it is that the Church believed it existed for 1700 years. Simply put, if the "mainstream" conjecture of modern scholarship is right, then 1700 years of Church history is wrong. Our job as an encyclopedia is not to elucidate the TRUTH of these two positions; it is to document the ongoing debate. ] (]) 19:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::I stand corrected. - ] (]) 19:40, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. ] (]) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::There is a broad consensus that Matthew did not write the Gospel of Matthew. So whether Matthew's Hebrew Gospel actually existed (as in minority view), or not (as in majority view) is irrelevant in an article about what is now called the Gospel of Matthew, since if it ever existed it has nothing to do with what is called the Gospel of Matthew. ] (]) 22:54, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::I agree that there is broad consensus that the ''Gospel of Matthew'' is not a a translation of Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel''. Casey, Ehrman & Edwards all state this. They further state that Matthew composed his Gospel in Hebrew and then Casey argues that ''Hebrew Matthew'' was the fountainhead or source for the Canonical ]. Can you name any sources that disagree with Casey.
			:At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --] (]) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Most Biblical commentaries, dictionaries, encyclopedias, even study Bibles have a section on the Papias tradition which says that Matthew first wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. They present both those who support and oppose Papias. We should follow the reliable sources and also write our article from NPOV - ] (]) 23:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::That's not what Casey 2010 argues. Casey argues that Matthew the apostle collected sayings in either Hebrew or Aramaic to which Papias was referring and which were a fountainhead for some traditions, and these traditions were in turn sources for the canonical Gospel of Matthew. He is not saying that Matthew wrote a gospel or some such work in Hebrew and the author of the canonical Gospel of Matthew used this as a fountainhead or source. Such implies that what the apostle wrote was like Q or the Gospel of Mark, which is not what Casey is saying at all (in fact, he suggests that some of these traditions from Matthew the apostle made their way into Q !) But even this view of Casey has reliable sources that disagree with it, including sources which you have been citing: Duling 2010 (p. 302), Edwards 2009 (pp. 260–262). Try asking instead: What reliable sources agree with Casey on these points? --<font face="georgia">]&nbsp;</font><font face="georgia" size="1">(],&nbsp;])</font> 09:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			::I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on ] quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on ]. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ] feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. ] (]) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	This discussion has become about SCOPE and WEIGHT, which can only be decided by consensus. Therefore, it should be ended here and continued on the article talk page or in DRN. ] (]) 23:53, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
			::::And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in ], ] and ]. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. ] (]) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@]. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. ] (]) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. ] (]/]) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. ] (]) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @] or @]. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @] and @]'s earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. ] (]) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the ] and ] concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —] (]) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
			:As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.
	:I agree that the question is WEIGHT, not FRINGE - the meaning of Papias' statement is indeed discussed by just about every important scholar who writes about the composition of this gospel, but the important thing is that the overwhelming majority (and it really is overwhelming) don't see an Aramaic or Hebrew original behind it. We do discuss this in our article - we have a whole paragraph about it - and that's enough. ] (]) 03:08, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			:There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.
	* I see no specific editor that asserts any fringe content. Is that correct? Is the discussion over as far as this noticeboard is concerned? I'm not sure how much this noticeboard can help rather than wikiproject christianity/religion. ] (]) 03:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
	::I too agree that the question is WEIGHT, not FRINGE and I see no specific editor that asserts any fringe content. Still, we should keep the discussion open a little longer to make sure nobody is left out and that everyone who is interested has been notified. - ] (]) 04:13, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			:Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.
	:::There is a simpler point to be made: you have quoted some reliable sources in order to prove exactly what these sources disagree with. So, you made a misleading summary of what these sources actually say. Do you expect such edits to pass as good faith edits? You were either unable or unwilling to render the actual viewpoints of the sources and posited your own view as if it were the view of the sources. So, this is not a case of weight vs. fringe, it is a case of ] against ]. The point which you have made up is not supported by the sources, except by the fundamentalist Christian apologist. ] (]) 12:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			:For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, <b>this needs to be a final warning</b> in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -] (]) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	In fairness to Ret.Prof, he brought this question to FTN because of a lot of loose talk on the article talk page about the fringiness of the topic of a Hebrew Gospel as a justification for the deletion of reliably-sourced content. I think we are in general agreement that this dispute is not, and never was, about FRINGE. The beginning of personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith signals the end of rational discussion, so I propose this emotive dialogue stay on the article talk page and we finish up here. ] (]) 15:07, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
			::Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? ] (]/]) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —] (]) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
			(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at ].) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, ]. {{U|PamD}} stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular {{U|Crouch, Swale}}. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point ] has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)
			* Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: '] is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with : he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
			* Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content calling it "irrelevant". At ], PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article ], , cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, ], the entire Architecture section was . However, their church articles always contain something like {{tq|The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.}} sourced to ''achurchnearyou.com'', often as a separate "Present day" section. of ] (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: {{tq|All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.}} (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing ] and ], both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.)
			* Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as , was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
			* Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.
			There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note {{U|Liz}} has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that ] instance (at the end of , which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. ] (]) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	@ Tgeorgescu - I just finished reading your comments, and I think I found the problem. You were reading from an older version of Ehrman. Please look at the following quotes, but sure to follow the links to see their context! Feel free to point out any errors, add any important material you feel was left out and of course add more up to date sources. Thanks for taking the time to join our discussion.
			:All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. ] (]/]) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'd like to point to ]: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. ] (]) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).
			::I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at ] and ], and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: ].
			::I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.
			::Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for ], which is also the example of a lead in ], starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{tl|cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.
			::Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.
			::The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, ] (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).
			::It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.
			::Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. ]] 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --] (]) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposed editing restriction/cleanup work ===
			I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. ] (]/]) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I've got some experience of ] investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. ] (]) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Taken from
			::I am an interested editor. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''''Author and Setting''''' The earliest surviving tradition about Matthew comes from Papias of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (modern Turkey) about 125–50 CE. His views were preserved by the early Christian historian, Eusebius of Caesarea (ca. 260– ca. 339 CE), generally held by modern scholars to be fairly trustworthy. The “Papias tradition” says, “Then Matthew put together the sayings in Matthew the Hebrew dialect and each one translated them as he was able” (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.16). By “Matthew” it is very likely that Papias had in mind Jesus' disciple (Mark 3:18; Matt. 10:3; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13). In Matthew – and only in Matthew – “Matthew” is identified as “the toll collector” (Matt. 10:3: ), the one previously said to have been sitting at the “toll booth” (Matt. 9:9:) near Capernaum (the northwest corner of the Lake of Galilee). The parallels in Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27 call this toll collector “Levi,” not Matthew, but Levi is not in the disciple lists. Modern scholars usually interpret the Papias tradition to mean that Papias thought that Jesus' disciple Matthew the toll collector had assembled a collection of Jesus' sayings in Hebrew (or Aramaic, cf. John 20:16) and then others translated them. (quote from p 302)
			:::I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --] (]) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. ]] 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Taken from
			:::::In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/] in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --] (]) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*We encounter a striking and incontestable fact. Virtually every piece of external evidence we have from the first few centuries regarding the authorship and composition of the Gospels concurs that Matthew's Gospel was the first written, that it was written in the Hebrew language...the widespread agreement of early sources on a number of points is remarkable and cannot be brushed aside, particularly since discrepancies among these sources regarding other points strongly suggest that they are not, for the most part, simply copying one another. (quote from p 602)
			::::::I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —] (]) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
			::::::::To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @] has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. ] (]) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Taken from After quoting the Papias tradition which states "Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue"
			:::::::::::Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the ]. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	* Still, on one point there can be no doubt. Papias may pass on some legendary traditions about Jesus, but he is quite speciflc—and there is no reason to think he is telling a bald-faced lie—that he knows people who knew the apostles (or the apostles' companions). This is not eyewitness testimony to the life of Jesus, but it is getting very close to that. Where conservative scholars go astray is in thinking that Papias gives us reliable information about the origins of our Gospels of Matthew and Mark. The problem is that even though he “knows” that there was an account of Jesus's life written by Mark and a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to the books that we call Mark and Matthew. In fact, what he says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels. He appears to be referring to other writings, and only later did Christians (wrongly) assume that he was referring to the two books that eventually came to be included in Scripture. This then is testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly to the disciples of Jesus themselves. (quote from pp 100-101)
			::::::::::::I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks ] (]) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Taken from
			:::::::::::::::About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? ]] 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	*This is corroborated in Ecclesiastical History 3.39.7 and 14, where Eusebius says that Papias confessed to having received the words of the apostles from their followers. Of course, if John the Elder was in fact John the Apostle — although this seems unlikely — then Papias's testimony comes directly from the apostolic fountainhead. It is in any case very early, within living memory of the apostolic age. Eusebius records Papias's relevant testimony: “Matthew organized the oracles (of Jesus) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as he was able.”8 This testimony does not specifically identify the Hebrew work of Matthew as the Hebrew Gospel, but it is reasonable to equate the two.9 Papias's primary intent seems to have been to emphasize the Hebrew composition of the work. (quote from p 3)
			::::::::::::::::Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Taken from
	*Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down in Aramaic and everyone 'translated/interpreted (hērmēneusen)' them as well as they were able. There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. It also explains the lack of common order, as well as the inadequate translations of some passages into Greek. (quote from p 86)
	*It follows that this is what Papias meant! It is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language, but each (person) translated/ interpreted them as he was able.' Moreover, the Greek word logia, which I have translated 'sayings/oracles', has a somewhat broader range of meaning than this, and could well be used of collections which consisted mostly, but not entirely, of sayings. It would not however have been a sensible word to use of the whole Gospel of Matthew.It was later Church Fathers who confused Matthew's collections of sayings of Jesus with our Greek Gospel of Matthew. (quote from p 87)
	It is upon this basis, that Casey after studying composite authorship in the period comes to his scholarly conclusion. The is the product of composite authorship of which Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel'' was the . Hence the Gospel of Matthew as Matthew was probably a . Now I hope this clears up the confusion. Thanks for being patient with an old guy who was clearly overwhelmed! Cheers - ] (]) 17:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
	@ Ignocrates Thanks for restoring sanity when needed! - ] (]) 17:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
	{{cob}}
	- ] (]) 21:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:I've removed the box below containing the humongeous copypaste from another noticeboard, Prof. It appears above as well! (Also collapsed.) Did you really mean to add it ''twice''? ] &#124; ] 22:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC).
	::You are right, we do not need it twice. I deleted the top one. Cheers - ] (]) 22:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	: This lengthy excerpt shows why this dispute is complex and shouldn't be addressed in AN/I. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 01:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	===Quick overview of content issues in lay terms===
	This is actually sort of straightforward. That said, I hope this doesn't over-simplify things.
	In the 2004 film ], the characters spoke in ] (as was historically correct) and ] (for artistic reasons). In that time and place, the vernacular language '''was''' Aramaic, but the ''lingua franca'' was actually ]. So:
	* Jesus would have preached in Aramaic; but,
	* Someone who wanted to write something that would be intelligible to the greatest number of people would have written in Greek.
	Today some of works written at that time in that place are very well known to us: they include the Gospels of ], ], ] and ]. Of these four, the first three ].
	There is a tradition that Matthew was the first Gospel written. That's why in they are are in that order in the Christian bible. It is now broadly accepted that ]. (Mark was written first. The writers of Matthew and Luke used Mark as a starting point, a ], and their own independent sources.)
	There is a tradition that that the Gospel of Matthew was first written in Aramaic (or, even less plausibly, in Hebrew). There is nothing controversial about asserting that Q and the independent sources for Matthew included material in Aramaic. It is a huge step go from this and then to claim that Matthew was originally written in any language other than Greek. The scholarly consensus is that Matthew was written in Greek. There's also a common sense test. Why would the writer of Matthew
	<br />
	- read Mark in Greek;<br />
	- translate Mark into Aramaic;<br />
	- add their own independent and Q sources;<br />
	- write their Gospel in Aramaic; then,<br />
	- translate the text back into Greek?
	To summarise the summary:
	* There is a tradition that Matthew was written in Aramaic, then translated into Greek.
	* The scholarly consensus is Matthew was written in Greek.
	Pete AU aka --] (]) 13:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:That is an accurate summary of the modern scholarly consensus. However, accepting that consensus also means that 1700 years of Church history and scholarship up to the end of the 19th century was a mistake. That is what Davidbena and Ret.Prof are reacting to. Nowhere in Misplaced Pages (that I know of) is this change in thinking documented. That is why Til suggested we need a new article describing the historiography of scholarship on this question. Does that make sense to everyone? ] (]) 13:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I'd like to see a section in the article ] about it. ] (]) 14:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::But a contingent of WPC editors adamantly do not want that and have deleted every attempt to include that section in the article. That is the point of the dispute. ] (]) 14:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Instead, it was decided by WPC localconsensus to restrict the ] of the Gospel of Matthew article to the modern consensus. Thus the need for a second article on the historiography of scholarship. However, several attempts have been made to create a second article on a Aramaic/Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, and all of them have been merge-deleted (railroaded) by redirect. ] (]) 14:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Some editors tried to add a section on ]. Unfortunately, seems to be unsourced original research, and says "some modern scholars" instead of "a minority of scholars" (and it cherry-picks sources, as I showed in my comment above). Understandably, these attempts were nuked as soon as other editors saw them.
	::::I think that Ret. Prof.'s intent is good, but his approach isn't likely to result in any improvement to the article.
	::::I think that the efforts of editors should be oriented to a more productive approach: taking Ret. Prof.'s attempt and rewriting it. Make clear that it's held a minority of scholars, fix the selective quoting, explain it was the majority belief for many centuries, list the problems with Papia's version.
	::::That could result in one or two rounded paragraphs. The history section would be greatly improved, I think. Readers would be informed about how the theories on the origin of the gospel have evolved over the centuries, and why. --] (]) 16:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::{{u|Eric Kvaalen}}'s was also nuked, and therein lies the problem. The various efforts which included reliable sources (like Eric's) should have been retained and improved per ] rather than being summarily deleted. I expressed my thoughts about this deletionism on the talk page at the time, so I won't do it again here. Anyway, mediation would be the perfect vehicle to implement what you are suggesting in a controlled environment. ] (]) 16:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::The issue is sufficiently complex (and requires familiarity with a rather technically recondite secondary literature) to warrant its own article. Once you start to get down to specifics in a short section of the Gospel of Matthew, those complexities, which go down to individual scholars challenging each other esp. over the last decades, get very subjective, and inevitably would flow over the natural limits. Just glance for example at one of the most recent surveys, Sang-Il Lee's, de Gruyter 2012, and you can get a quick idea of the fact that every position is contested, and has multiple angles. Ret. Prof. has perhaps his heart in the right place, but he works by indiscriminate aggregation, not by conceptual concision and winnowing. Barring fresh archeological/papyric/inscriptional evidence we will never know the truth, and must therefore limit ourselves to describing scholarly positions, as the various theories ebb and flow in popularity.] (]) 17:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::Indiscriminate aggregation? I like it! See ] for insight into the tendency to weight all sources equally irrespective of age or quality of scholarship. (Please don't take this as a ]; it's just background information.) ] (]) 19:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::(re PA) Of course not. It is, by the way, curious that so little attention ''in this context'' is paid to the implications of Paul's letters, written in Greek perhaps even 2 decades, and almost certainly at least ten years, before Mark. Whoever JC was, word about him was spreading through the Jewish diaspora and among gentiles via Greek long before the Gospel versions achieved literary form, and during Paul's early missions, much of the Aramaic-Galilean tradition must have circulated, given literacy was at 30%, via the usual form in such societies (which were, like Palestine, bilingual in Greek and Aramaic), oral transmission of memorized tales. Consider these two points and much of this fascinating niggling about what came first becomes moot (or indeterminate methodologically). The assumption is, first Hebrew hence a Jewish teaching (disliked by the millenial hermeneutic antisemitic tradition we are shrugging off). But since Jews in the diaspora were bilingual, getting at a 'Hebrew' original to prove the obvious (Christ was, like most if not all of the early leadership, born and died as a believing Jew) is, in my view, unnecessary. Blame Paul, then, he was an avatar of the JS-H, I suspect. Cheers] (]) 19:52, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Allow me to digress with a brief example of Aramaic underlying the Greek text - consider the miracle story of ] in the ], where Jesus is either "compassionate" (Alexandrian/Byzantine text-types) or "angry" (Western text-type). (It's hard to be both.) These are very different words in Greek but very similar words in Aramaic, see . I contributed this bit of insight in Jan 2008, and of course it was rapidly deleted. Wouldn't want anyone getting upset. ] (]) 20:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}		{{outdent}}
			{{U|voorts}} - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	OK. We've identified the problem, and there are behavioral issues as well as content issues here.
	So now, lets look for a solution.
			== Stalking from @Iruka13 ==
	I propose that:
			*{{userlinks|Iruka13}}
	* The article ] be kept as it is. It reflects the current scholarly consensus. It is simply a given that Misplaced Pages follows current scholarly consensus.
			This is a continuation of various discussions happening on the Talk page of the user ].
	* The article ] (or a similar title) be written. "The issue is sufficiently complex (and requires familiarity with a rather technically recondite secondary literature) to warrant its own article" (per Nishidani)
			I have been feeling harassed and stalked by this user for months now, figuring it was only me. Except, as is evidenced from that user's talk page, it ISN'T only me. As well as ], @] has laid out their own harassment. Bear in mind both of our posts come AFTER the user was already banned for a week by @] for incivility to a different person entirely. I don't believe it's only us.
	This article would include:
	:- reliably sourced content about Matthew in "1700 years of Church history and scholarship up to the end of the 19th century" that was the previous scholarly view (per Ignocrates). "Readers would be informed about how the theories on the origin of the gospel have evolved over the centuries" (per Enric Naval)
	: - reliably sourced content about modern alternative views (Per Davidbena and Ret. Prof.,) with recognition that they do not reflect current scholarly consensus (per everyone else, including me)
			As laid out: one of my photos was tagged by @] for deletion around 4 months ago. So fine. Except when asking why, or if the user had read any of the supporting material, I was met by threats to delete work I'd done on the site - plus varying degrees of condescension and bullying. This was largely on the talk page of a now deleted file. Since then, the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons. The reason I say this is stalking is that these images aren't new. If there was a genuine issue, they could have *all* been tagged four months ago. Instead it's a drip-drip-drip. As an example, was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
	How does that sound as a solution?--] (]) 09:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:'''Support''', not necessarily with that title, but those who wish for expansion should supply a title that explains exactly what they propose to do on the new page, since they will be working it. An indication of meta-sources that deal precisely with the genealogy of interpretations of Matthew with regard to the Hebrew theory would be useful, also, to assure everyone ] is to be avoided.
	::To give an added reason for this split, to enable the technical issues to be addressed adequately in a proposed ], let me illustrate by responding to my friend Ignocrates's slight digression above on Mark 1:41, where the manuscripts provide two readings (ὀργισθείς /σπλαγχνισθείς), and some argue this is evidence for an Aramaic substrate (strictly speaking, the evidence is not from Aramaic but a dialect of that, Syriac:''ethraham/ethra'em''). This is one of several hypotheses. ], ''Studies in the Textual Criticism of the New Testament,'' 2006 pp.120-141, roundly dismisses what you take to be a fact ("a brief example of Aramaic underlying the Greek text.") and even then appears to slightly misreport ] by the way, unless his entry in ''A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament'',2nd ed.1994 p.65, differs from his entry in the Ist edition 1971 p.76):'I have to say that arguments like this have always struck me as completely mystifying; I have never heard anyone explain how exctly they are supposed to work. Why, that is, would a Greek scribe proficient in Greek and copying a Greek text be confused by two words that look alike in Aramaic?' (p.128). That is one solid reason why the deletion of your edit would be technically justified, whatever the original deleter's reason. In short, general overview articles simply cannot get bogged down in nittygritty details that provide ostensible factual evidence for what are disputed theories - they must stick to a general survey of the main conjectures and interpretations using high quality RS that deal with a synthesis of the state of the art for each argument. If complex controversies on details demand attention, a fork is required. ] (]) 12:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I should have said "putative example". Sorry about that, I let my private POV slip there for a second. I try hard not to do that. Anyway, it's a moot point for me because I will never touch that article again. ] (]) 19:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	: I got a notice that someone had mentioned me here, so I took a look. I see that Ignocrates mentioned the fact that my edit was "nuked" back in May. That's true, and I complained at the time that PiCo had simply reverted my whole edit just because he didn't like one particular thing – he thought I was givin' too much weight to the theories about earlier versions. But Ret_Prof came to my aid and restored my work. Later I put back some edits that had been done after mine, and the version is this: . I think it does a decent job of presenting the theories about a Hebrew/Aramaic version. A little better than the present version. But I guess that's a topic for the Talk page of the article. By the way, Ignocrates, that's an interesting point you made about Mark 1:41. One of us should put it back in! ] (]) 12:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream of harassment. They never engage civilly, never explain, never offer any reasoning. Again, from the other comments on the user's Talk page, this practice of stalking, bullying, and condescension is seemingly not a one-off. I don't understand how there can be so much drama on a single six-week period of one person's Talk page. Especially when, apparently, the user has already been banned from Commons for similar destructive behaviour. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	At this point, the conversation has gone way beyond an argument for admin action and into the nuances of textual criticism which seems better placed in mediation or a WikiProject Talk Page discussion. Time to close this case before it doubles in length again? <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 23:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Liz, since it appears that no action is going to be taken, it can just age off into the sunset. There is no reason to spend anymore time on this including admin time. Cheers. ] (]) 00:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Preparation of a request for formal mediation has ground to a halt due to Ret.Prof "stepping back" again. Therefore, I have reopened the matter with ]. ] (]) 21:59, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Done. Tom has indicated that I start mediation right away. Therefore I will comply. - ] (]) 00:50, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}
	OK, we have identified the problem, so lets look for a solution. See: ].--] (]) 11:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Right. Today I will be filing a Formal Request for Mediation. The draft can be found on the talk page of ]. Cheers - ] (]) 14:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			:Just dropping a link to my discussion with Iruka . My block was less about whether they were technically correct, but their complete unwillingness and inability to edit in a collaborative environment despite a multitude of warnings. I have not followed up with further sanctions as at least one admin disagreed, and I haven't had the on wiki time to moderate this. My POV there and here is that being right isn't sufficient, and Iruka13 has to learn to play well with others if he's going to edit here. I am not sure whether this is a language barrier, but they've been told a number of times that their conduct is problematic. ] ] 03:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Woozle effect ==
			::I'm also going to add from what I've seen at the deletion discussions (they've not targeted any of mine; I exclusively deal in copyleft media on Commons) that Iruka13 is frequently and obviously meritless in their nominations. A huge portion of them are very obviously spurious in a way that's comparable to ] and ], where the amount of energy required to nominate them is immensely lower than the amount required to refute them. I'm genuinely baffled that they've been getting away with this. If they were basically always correct and just being – pardon my French – an insufferable jackass about it, that would be one thing. It's another thing entirely, though, to take a birdshot approach to deletion noms knowing there will be zero repurcussions for whichever spuriously nominated ones survive the discussion because ]. It's literally just a technique aimed at exhausting the other party, and this bizarre edge case they're creating has made me think that we might actually need some sort of limit on the number of noms possible in a given time period. <b>]</b> ] 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Can you provide the redlink to the "talk page of a deleted file" where you said that the harassment "largely" occurred? Administrators can view the content of a deleted page. :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? ] (]) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I am reproducing the comment from ] here:{{tq2|Do you even know what is ] and what is not? Where in ] is this distinction mentioned? Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and ]? And ], ok? — Ирука<sup>13</sup> 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)}} ] (]/]) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes! That's the comment. The "demolish everything you wrote" bit.
			::::The same user has now been following me around for months. This is exactly the reason other users like @] feel unsafe. How is this allowed to go on? ] (]) 03:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding {{tq|the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons}}, could you please provide diffs (perhaps to talk page notices that you got) of spurious deletion nominations? ] (]/]) 03:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It's the process of one after the other, after the other.
			::::::If there were genuine issues with images, why didn't Iruka tag them all back then? Instead, it's been a drip-drip-drip all the way up until today. This is why I feel harassed. The tagging isn't on new images.
			::::::As an example, was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
			::::::If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. ] (]) 03:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My understanding is that stuff like that lead to Star Missicipi's 1 week block on the 10th of December. Has there been any conduct made you feel uncomfortable since their block expired, beyond nominating your images for deletion (indicating they might be watching which images you make) and them being deleted? :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Jinx voorts, beat me too it! Had an edit conflict there (but forgot to add {{ec}})! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Hi. Yes. was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
			::::::If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream.
			::::::Basically, why would they suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months, on a whim? ] (]) 03:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to ]. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::But that's exactly my point. All those files were already on Misplaced Pages at that previous time. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged in one go.
			::::::::Instead, it's tag a file, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another. And repeat.
			::::::::But why would anyone keep returning to those old images, from a single user, over and over and over?
			::::::::That's why I feel harassed. Especially because - as with the image linked above - I don't believe there's an issue.
			::::::::Plus, as pointed out by @], tahere have been more than 150 image deletion nominations in the last two weeks alone. ] (]) 04:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Three* but nonetheless correct. <b>]</b> ] 04:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)e
			::::{{U|Voorts}}, you just beat me to it--thanks. But let me add that Peterson doesn't look good either. What Iruka was responding to was this, " There's no point in people drive-bying these pages with that "needs image" tag if, when somebody tries to do something about it, a person *with zero knowledge of the subject matter* doesn't bother to do any reading before rejecting. This whole process is ridiculous." ] (]) 03:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: I've undeleted that file talk page so non-admin watchers can see the whole exchange in context. ] ] 03:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm reading over a bunch of material, including their talk page. It's clear to me (and I think ] agrees) that many of their deletion nominations are correct. On the other hand, the way in which they go about things is deemed problematic by plenty of others, and I wonder if ], ], ], and ] have any additional insight. ] (]) 03:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Yeah, that matched my understanding, including them being usually (but by no means always) right on the merits but problematic in how they went about it. I don't really have the energy to spent more time analyzing this than I already have - the other admins watching this page can do what needs to be done and I don't think any further comments from me would be helpful. ] ] 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Their nomination of ] was not correct. The file had a nominally large pixel size, but was very compressed. When I removed their tag for the image to be shrunk, they nominated it for speedy deletion, which makes no sense and is clearly retaliatory. They tagged it as being an entire work uploaded when an excerpt would do, when they knew it was a single compressed frame from a 44 minute film. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to ] and the ] of the {{tlx|Non-free no reduce}} template ] to the file's page and ] of the the {{tlx|Non-free reduce}} template originally added by Iruka13. For reference, {{u|Voorts}}, who's an administrator, did !vote delete in the FFD, but for a different reason; the file ultimately was kept, but it was reduced. You disagreed with the tagging of the file for reduction by Iruka13 but, for some reason, don't seem to have an issue with the closing administrator who did exactly the same thing. -- ] (]) 13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I forgot about that discussion. I don't think it makes me involved here, but I'm not planning on taking action at this point anyways. If any evidence of a continuing problem had been presented, as I've asked numerous times, I would have blocked, but the allegations of stalking are based on very thin evidence. ] (]/]) 14:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@], you don’t know what I don’t have an issue with. I still think there was no reason for the bot reduction of the file. The relevance of the reduction tagging is in the fact that “this file should be kept and altered” cannot lead to “this file should be deleted” without some major change in opinion, which Iruka never explained—hence my belief that it was just a lashing-out, as I believe is evidenced by the fact that their tag alleging that the file interferes with the market role of the original work and that the still is a complete work from which an excerpt could be taken instead was completely false and never explained—''still'' never explained, actually. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, ], ] and ]) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot ], but you removed the tag ] and added a "Non-free no reduce" template ]; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template ], and you re-added it ]. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per ] and ], each of which are reasons related to ]. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the {{tlx|di-fails NFCC}} template is boilerplate text added when a template's {{para|3b}} parameter is set as {{para|3b|yes}}; so, that's the default option when using that template. Personally, I might've just skipped that template and gone to FFD instead, but different strokes for different folks, and, once again, I don't see tagging the file for speedy deletion as being a retaliatory act. Iruka13 can't delete files and any files they tag for speedy deletion are going to be ultimately reviewed by an administrator, and it's possible that the file would've ended up at FFD based on that review. If you've got issues with the bot tagging the file for reduction, the bot operator is probably the best person to express them to. Similarly, if you feel the FFD close was incorrect, you can follow ]. -- ] (]) 20:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::> I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again
			::::::And therein lies the point because you shouldn’t have to guess. Iruka could actually engage with editors on a polite, peer-to-peer, basis.
			::::::Instead, there is no engagement. It’s tag, move on; tag, move on - dozens of times a day, every day. And should anyone dare engage, they get wikilawyered, or threats such as:
			::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
			::::::All from a user who, by their own admission, has multiple bans for harassment. Which is, at least from my standing, why I and others feel bullied and harassed. After all it is someone who’ll openly tell you that’s how they behave, knowing full well they get welcomed back to do it again. ] (]) 20:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::You cannot nominate a file for deletion because you think your tag is going to be removed. That is not a deletion rationale. I don’t care about establishing a pattern of behavior for this user—I’m just saying that they tagged a file for deletion because they got annoyed that their NFR tag got reverted, and that is a problem. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 02:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet <s>all</s><u>one</u> of the ten non-free content use criteria. Iruka13 listed two criteria that they felt the non-free use failed; you disagreed with their assessment and the file ended up being discussed at FFD. That's a fairly common occurrence when it comes to disagreements over non-free use, and doesn't necessarily mean anyone was annoyed or trying to retaliate. The fact that the non-free file was kept but also reduced, also doesn't mean they were totally incorrect in their assessment, at least with respect to NFCC#3b. You posted above that I {{tq|don't know what you have an issue with}}, yet you're quick to assume that Iruka13's tagging of the file just had to be done to get back at you. -- ] (]) 03:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)<ins>; <small>post edited. -- 03:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</small></ins>
			:@] & @]: If I am going to take action, I need to see a post-block pattern of conduct. Please provide some form of evidence, such as diffs. ] (]/]) 03:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::My most recent issues relate to the file I linked above - . This was tagged last week and deleted today.
			::Again, if the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's the fifth or sixth(?) that's been tagged and deleted since that first one. Each a week or three apart.
			::Of course I feel stalked. None of these images are new. They could've all been tagged at the time.
			::Instead, it's drip-drip-drip.
			::On that one linked above, why would Iruka suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months on a whim? Unless it's because they're stalking. It's the same behaviour described by @] ] (]) 04:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The instructions at the top of this page state: {{tq|Be brief and include ''']''' demonstrating the problem}} (emphasis in original). I am not going to block someone without evidence. ] (]/]) 04:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::There's no way I could possibly fulfil what you ask.
			::::The point is that instead of tagging multiple files for deletion in one go, the same user has tagged image files of mine one after the other. Tag for deletion, wait 2-3 weeks, tag, wait 2-3 weeks, tag.
			::::I can't see the files *because they've been deleted*. What am I supposed to link you to?
			::::Even if all the deletions were correct - and I'm not convinced that's true - how is this a legitimate way to act?
			::::The harassment is that all these files were live when the first tag was made. Instead of highlighting any issues at the time, Iruka has been following me around the site for months. I'm not the only person saying this. ] (]) 04:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.{{pb}}The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. ] (]/]) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I also note your responses to two of those notifications (both for files that were deleted):
			::::::* ]
			::::::* ]
			:::::: ] (]/]) 04:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::OK @] & @]- I think I have been able to find some sort of timeline to illustrate what I'm saying.
			:::::::On 12 Nov, ] was nominated for deletion. I'd uploaded in the days before, so OK. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced by the merits of this deletion in regards to the point of the page and the image - but OK.
			:::::::On 22 Nov, ] was nominated.
			:::::::On 3 Dec ] was nominated.
			:::::::On 6 Jan ] was nominated. This is the most dubious of all.
			:::::::These four images were all there at the time of the first nomination. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.
			:::::::Instead, it's four over two months - which comes directly after the message:
			:::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
			:::::::Which is exactly what's happening. Spaced out, spurious nominations.
			:::::::Why would a user suddenly return to look at a different user's work, weeks apart, unless they're stalking?
			:::::::And, if it was only me, then maybe I'd put it down to paranoia. Except the user's Talk page has at least one other user saying a very similar thing.
			:::::::I can't see the comments you've linked to btw - but believe it or not, when someone says
			:::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
			:::::::and then starts doing it, it does tend to lead to incivility. ] (]) 04:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Just to add, by the user's own admission in 2023, they have
			::::::::> 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects
			::::::::Link: ]
			::::::::That's in *their own words*. ] (]) 05:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::{{tq|If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.}} There's no rule that requires an editor to go through another editor's contributions and decide whether to nominate them for deletion all at once. There are also innocent explanations, such as not wanting to overwhelm someone with a dozen nominations all at once or not having the time.{{pb}}Regarding Netherzone's claim of stalking, Iruka's "]" appears to be a place where they keep notes on files they intend to renominate for deletion at a later date.{{pb}}I am also well aware of the history of Iruka's blocks, but blocks can't be used to punish people for sins of the past. I see no evidence of stalking here and I won't be taking action. ] (]/]) 05:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::OK, so when another old file gets tagged with little justification in 2-3 weeks, can I message you again? What about 2-3 weeks after that?
			:::::::::I don't even know how I'm supposed to appeal / counteract the tag-tag-tag behaviour. I can't see any justification for the deletion of today's file and it's not as if Iruka ever gives any reason. ] (]) 05:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{outdent|6}} Iruka has provided reasons consistent with policies, guidelines, and practice. For example, ] was tagged with <nowiki>{{di-fails NFCC|date=6 January 2025|1=yes|8=yes}}</nowiki>. I've reviewed the fair use rationale that you provided and I believe that the file was properly deleted. ] (]/]) 05:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Does 170 image deletion noms since Christmas count as "a pattern of conduct"? Because I see this as effectively a ] where it's functionally impossible for most editors to meaningfully evaluate the merits of each one. Since non-free media has to meet a substantially higher standard for 'Keep' than for 'Delete', this means that 'Keep' voters need to take substantially more time per nom than the 'Delete' ones, and creating such a glut of noms severely and unfairly tips the balance in favor of a 'Delete' vote on average. <b>]</b> ] 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please provide diffs. ] (]/]) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. <b>]</b> ] 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. ] (]/]) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. <b>]</b> ] 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|It's a very obvious tactic, I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it.}} Please do comment on other editors' motives without evidence. ] (]/]) 04:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. <b>]</b> ] 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::"I have 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects."
			:::::::::Kinda sounds like maybe this user does harass people, considering that's what they wrote *on their own page*.
			:::::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100 ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:The stuff in this thread is basically ''de rigueur'' for this user: my past experiences with Iruka13 and file deletion have consisted of extremely bizarre wikilawyering, to the point where I felt like it bordered on deliberate trolling. I do not understand why this editor is permitted to waste so much of people's time with obviously vexatious nominations. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 06:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. ] <sup>]]</sup> 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::To my understanding this ANI is mainly about a) the volume of CSDs and FfDs and b) the user's laboratory. I don't think anyone is arguing that the nominations were actually meritless or vexatious, and those who said they were "wrong" may want to take that up with the deleting admin or ] because it's not like this user is mass-tagging and it's being declined... most of the time issues are resolved or the admin agrees and speedily deletes/the FfD closes as delete. ] <sup>]]</sup> 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::> and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama
			:::You’ve guessed that this is their motivation - and your guess is equally as valid as my assertion that this is stalking.
			:::In fact, much of various admins’ attempts at justification throughout this thread is guesswork - all of which has had to occur because Iruka does not engage with other users on a polite peer-to-peer basis. There is no “paper trail” to say “this is what they actually meant”. As has been evidenced and pointed out by multiple editors. ] (]) 11:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. ] (]/]) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Ok, I will simply ask you how do you know tags
			:::::> were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama
			:::::Have you guessed? Or has Iruka stated this anywhere? ] (]) 13:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. ] (]/]) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You're guessing my intention the same way you're guessing Iruka's.
			:::::::"Revenge" isn't my intention at all. Revenge for what? If the files were legitimately deleted, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to me.
			:::::::However, the spacing of the reports felt - and feel - like harassment. (I'm being clear that it *felt* like harassment because I don't want to be banned for what you assert are personal attacks).
			:::::::Even with that *feeling*, I would have moved on were it not for the fact that other people were reporting very similar things on the user's Talk page. And then, with a small amount of checking, it seems that Iruka has admitted to harassing other users at various points in the past. And, from what others have said, Iruka has already been banned on multiple occasions, from multiple places, for precisely that. (I don't actually know if this is true).
			:::::::So my *feeling* of being harassed was in fact legitimised by others feeling the same - and apparent past behaviour. Hence this.
			:::::::On the files being deleted, for that specific one ], it was the first time I'd experienced this sort of tagging. I didn't really know what to do with it.
			:::::::The info page said to leave an explanation on the Talk page - which I tried to do.
			:::::::I was then told:
			:::::::> I can demolish everything you wrote
			:::::::along with what I now know is 'wikilawyering'. You can see how I reacted:
			:::::::> Who goes onto a page and says "I can demolish everything you wrote" and then cries about bad faith?!
			:::::::Because from the info page, I assumed that when an admin came to look at that file to decide upon deletion, they would see that remark and do something with it. I didn't even know this ANI process existed then.
			:::::::Except nothing was done. The admin either read Iruka's "demolish" response and decided it was acceptable, or didn't read it.
			:::::::And, ever since then, Iruka has continued to target me at regular intervals, leaving me unsure what - if anything - to do.
			:::::::You can guess that the targeting is to "prevent looks of batch deleting" - but it's still a guess. Iruka could've engaged civilly, in the same way they could with any other user who has reported a problem.
			:::::::In the same way they could be on this thread right now explaining what's actually going on. If they did that, neither you or I would have to guess. ] (]) 14:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			Please forgive the length of this. This discussion has gone a bit sideways, the issue is '''''not''''' whether Iruka13 is “correct” or not in their file tagging and file deletions, the problem is that <u>''their behavior is disturbing and upsetting a number of experienced, good-faith editors''</u>, myself included.
	Some eyes on this:
			It is precisely the same conduct that got them blocked on Commons, Russian WP and Ukranian WP. Stalking may not be the right term for the behavior but I do believe there is deliberate harassment conducted by the editor. Misplaced Pages itself defines harassment as {{tq|Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing.}} That is clearly the effect their behavior has had with multiple ediors.
	{{pagelinks|Woozle effect}}
			Here is a synopsis of my interactions with this user and why I feel I have been harassed and made to feel upset and frightened to the point that I’ve virtually stopped editing.
	would be appreciated, as it's been discussed and is attracting weirdness and an associated AfD: ]. Thanks. &mdash; ] (]) 18:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	*I've semi-protected: too much IP disruption. Perhaps someone can check to see if the current version is the best, or if perhaps some unverified content should be deemed trivial and not of encyclopedic value. ] (]) 18:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			1. I uploaded ''']'''. After uploading I realized the size was too large for fair-use, and made a note of my error on the file talk page (I was unable to reduce it because I did not have access to Photoshop at the time). BTW, Zuni fetishes are ceremonial objects made by the Zuni tribe of Native Americans that are also sold as small sculptures; they have nothing to do with the sexualized notion of "fetish".
	Eyes on this would be good.
			2. I received message about the file on my user talk. Diff: to which I responded and answered on the file talk page.
	What I want to say is that it is difficult if not impossible for any average Misplaced Pages user to navigate the enormous numbers of policies that guide Wiki adding. AND YET, I learned a long time ago, that Wikipedias were called to IMPROVE and ASSUME GOOD FAITH not just REVERT.
			3. The discussion then resumed at the File talk page about the deletion nomination. Diff: where I explained my rationale for fair use. The editor then responded with: {{tq| judging by the response you didn't look at them; right?}}, which I thought was rather rude to assume I don't read messages (which explains my response on my user talk page).
	THE WORLD CANNOT BEGIN TO TELL WIKI how obnoxious your REVERT HAPPY editors are. OR HOW THEY VIOLATE "IMPROVE" and "ASSUME GOOD FAITH".
			4. They then went on the argue with me in a mocking tone: {{tq|But it is so. wow, your contribution is bigger than mine, it's not for me to tell you about it}} and {{tq|wow_2, who am I telling this to?}}. I told them that their response did not seem very nice. They responded: {{tq|What I was trying to say is that what I'm saying, you already know. You know better than me. / uploading this image boggles my mind.}} I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi warned the editor on their talk page.
	Nevertheless, the truth is that the page for Woozle Effect is FINE. Google Scholar lists 440 examples of it being used in academic papers. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=woozle&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C3
			5. After I wrote a more detailed rationale why the file was suitable as fair-use, they refused to answer my own simple question responding instead with: {{tq|I can answer all the questions posed in this message. And I will, if it be necessary. But first, please answer the question - and, for the sake of the experiment, let's assume that all the images in that category are really unsuitable...}} and asked me an "experimental question" whether I could create from scratch a "completely free image", a proposal that would involve spending a large amount of money. Diff: As a volunteer editor, that seemed utterly absurd, and it became clear to me they were just yanking my chain.
	IT is on it's face notable in academia.
			6. I then noticed they were treating others in similar ways, for example asking editors to buy a glass basketball backboard shield specifically to then smash it with a rock after installing a camera specifically to create a fair use image. Diffs: by {{u|Left guide}}) ]. This clearly seemed they were wikilawyering and arguing for the sake of argument with the intent to annoy and intimidate others. I think it was around this time that {{u|Star Mississippi}} issued a short block.
	BUT the best exact specific precise accurate correct strict rigorous particular methodical categorical rigid way to express that to make every wikipedia editor happy is WAY BEYOND ME.
			7. I then noticed on their user page a link to their “Laboratory”, which creeped me out because the strange “experimental questions” seemed like mind-games. I noticed that not only was there an entry for the Zuni fetishes file, but that some of it was actually written in “invisible ink” using the < ! -- template, and included a a number of my file uploads. Diff from January 2: and . I know that being creepy is not a blockable offense but it scared the daylights me, because I have been Wiki-stalked not only online, but in real life.
	What I note is that long time wikipedia editors LOVELOVELOVE their revert skills, and then their threatening people with various bans who disagree with that.
			8. I directly asked them to STOP following me around. Instead they created a user sub-page, replacing all the images with 19th century inaccurate illustrations, romanticized representations of the art of Zuni tribe Native Americans by none other than an ethnographer who looted artifacts from the Zuni people. Diff: I again demanded that they STOP and I quit editing. I refuse to be someone's "experimental laboratory" subject, that is disturbingly creepy.
	So eyes on this page please, because it is clear that the AFD is feminist inspired reddit brigaded vandalism.
			9. If this is considered “normal” behavior by administrators, well, then after 13 years of editing, I’m out of here. I can not and I will not have a hobby as a volunteer editor in a place where I feel unsafe and harassed, especially from a single-purpose editor with a long history of such behavior – no matter if their tagging or deletions are “correct.”
	And yes, I assume that any edit I place at wiki anywhere imncluding this one will result in a deletions and a threatened ban. Because that's how wiki rolls.
			] (]) 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm not going to respond point by point here, but I don't think the uncivil interactions with you are "normal" behavior. The issue is that Iruka was already blocked for that conduct and I still don't see how the pages Iruka created in his userspace{{snd}}which did not mention you by name and which he did not notify you of{{snd}}are harassment. If Iruka starts being uncivil again or starts harassing people, I'll be the first to indef him. ] (]/]) 22:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	] (]) 18:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			::The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by ''multiple other users''. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"feminist inspired reddit brigaded vandalism"? Whatever. This IP added , rightfully removed by Alf--now tell me that this was not an expert usage of the revert skill. Also, no one's threatening you with a ban; you're not being oppressed. ] (]) 18:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::The only two editors I have seen complain about stalking are Netherzone and Peterspeterson. I've asked multiple times for evidence that Iruka's file deletion nominations are largely incorrect, but the only evidence provided thus far have been files that other admins have seen fit to delete and contested FFD discussions. In my view, this complaint seems largely based on vibes and conduct preceding the block. ] (]/]) 18:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	** It's not whatever, and this is precisely why you were wrong to insert yourself into it. I documented the reddit feminist brigade of this page at the AFD discussion. You can see it for yourself here: http://www.reddit.com/r/againstmensrights/comments/1wxaoa/discovered_wikipedia_page_with_clear_mra_bias/?sort=confidence <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			* Having been pinged to this, my experience and another thread I saw suggests to me that the user really wants to delete things - not just that they are being gnomish in the area of deletion for the benefit of Misplaced Pages, no, that they actively want to delete stuff and be uncivil to those who do not share this philosophy. In this way, they seem to mass search for anything that could have a valid reason to delete, even if another another option is better or, as in what drew my attention, even if they have to make up some reason why a file meets deletion rationale when it doesn’t. That is another issue: while their deletion noms may be generally correct because they are seeking out files with issues, their tagging of files that only need reduction to be deleted, their tagging of Commons-eligible files, and their bizarre suggestion to purchase an iage license as proof of owenership, strike me as someone who does not understand Misplaced Pages or Commons policy very well and does not care if understanding will get in the way of their tagging g. ULtimately, the poor tags that may not get chance to be corrected, and rejectiong collaboratoon, negate any positive of being the first person to tag some bad files and thus make the user’s contributions in deletion a net negative for WP. I am struggling just to type this on mobile so can’t or provide diffs atm. ] (]) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	** "This was not an expert use of the revert skill." Well, depends on the criteria -- it's a fine revert vis-a-vis maintaining content standards. If part of the goal in engaging potential new editors is to convert them into productive editors, not so much. I'm not saying Alf should have done anything different; while they ''could'' have left a more personal encouraging note on the IP's talk page, I'll be the first to admit the expected payoff is fairly low: (meaning that encouraging a random IP often won't be successful, which is not to say it couldn't / can be with 184). <small>]</small> 12:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			== User:अधिवक्ता संतोष, legal threat ==
	*You know what ("you" in general, not the IP editor), perhaps semi-protection is too heavy-handed. If any admin thinks it so, please go ahead and change it or remove it. Thanks, ] (]) 18:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{Atop|अधिवक्ता संतोष is now blocked. The phrase that they were concerned about is now also removed. ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	**Also it should be noted that for all the all-caps about assuming good faith, the IP editor is not showing much of it. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|अधिवक्ता संतोष}} See ]. <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 06:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	*** I don't think that's actually important. Bringing attention to the community of an off-wiki attempt at meatpuppetry is. <small>]</small> 13:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			:I obviously don't condone the legal threat, and an admin would be well within their right to block. But the complaint was about real vandalism (a claim that a prominent actor had entered politics "due to a failed acting career") that had remained up for a month—I can understand why someone would be frustrated. I have removed the claim and would not recommend any further action. ] (]) 06:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	****That effort, taken by itself, is to be appreciated, of course. But I cringe when someone tells me that, again, the feminists are behind it, or some such thing. It's one reason I cancelled my memberships of the Hair Club For Men and the Men's Rights Movement. ] (]) 17:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			::From their latest remark on the article talk page, it sounds like you removed the sentence that set them off, ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, as I said above {{tq|I have removed the claim}}. There are related conversations happening on the talk page as well as ]. ] (]) 07:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Can you please notify the user of this discussion? ]] 16:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've done so here: {{diff2|1269465106}} ] ] 20:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I have blocked because, although they may have had a legitimate grievance, they went about addressing it the wrong way. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	=== ] on Woozle Effect AFD ? ===
			{{Abot}}
			*Just as an update, I have unblocked this user as they have agreed to avoid discussion of Indian law and making edit requests; as they did have one legitimate grievance, they may have others. They are also aware they will need to disclose as a paid editor. ] (]) 16:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles ==
	] has had 8 straight Keeps & no Deletes so looks like ].--] (]) 11:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	: No. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 12:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Close it''' Obvious unanimous support. ] ] ] 17:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			] keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on ], however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.
	*Why in the world would anyone want to close this AfD early? It was a good faith nomination and civil and productive conversation is ongoing. There's no need whatsoever to rush this process.&mdash; ] (]) 18:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	**Because (as much as it might look like otherwise sometimes) ], and when there is (as ] is defined) not a snowball's chance in Hades of there being anything other than a Keep result (which, with ''everybody'' there !voting Keep is blatantly obvious) leaving the AfD open for the full week 'because it's supposed to run for a full week' is, in fact, following bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. At this point the 'civil and productive discussion', no matter how civil and productive it is, is in fact discussion about the article - which is not what AfD is for, it's what the article talk page is for. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 23:30, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	* The woozle page is not without (NPOV) problems, mostly because the source selection is from a fairly narrow field and that's not easy to fix. In particular, the critics of the ] (which itself is of feminist inspiration) do enjoy using the "woozle effect" accusation in their works. Some of the abusive language leveled at the AfD nominator (by experienced Wikipedians to boot) was really uncalled for. This isn't a slam dunk SNOW keep case. ] (]) 11:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			Diffs:
	== ] and copyrighted images ==
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::Citation '''bot''' is an automated process, and not a human. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. ] (]) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You can add this to the page in question – <nowiki>{{bots|deny=Citation bot}}</nowiki> – or you can add this to a specific citation – <nowiki>{{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}}</nowiki> – to keep the bot away. See -- ].]] 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that ] did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on ], see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. ] (]) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			: Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a ]. ] (]) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Citation bot is not a ], but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:
			::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348
			::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078
			::"All ] apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."
			::-] ] (]) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the ''person'' who is ''using'' the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Most of these seem to have been invoked by {{u|Abductive}}, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? ] (]) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on ]. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee {{rpa}}. Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. ] (]) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493
			:Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.
			:These edits were suggested by the following user:
			:*]
			:] (]) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Found another bad date in another article:
			::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by ]
			::Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. ] (]) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Found another bad date in another article:
			:::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)
			:::Suggested by user:
			:::*]
			:::Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates ] (]) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". ] (]) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Because it is not necessarily an error. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::It is still about Citation bot. ] (]) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by ]. ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			You have given the operators ] to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? ] (]) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits.]] 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the ]. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —] (]) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that.]] 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."
			:::::-]
			:::::] is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. ] (]) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It would be best if the bad source was removed, per ] and ]. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes.]] 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Can you quote the part of ] which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. ? ] (]) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —] (]) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about ], not ]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about ''your'' use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. ] (]) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] specifically says {{tq|The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. '''In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account.''' Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot}}. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —] (]) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{tqq|I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.}} I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to ] to me... - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.
			::::::::::::::I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right??]] 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —] (]) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. ] (]) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Unsupervised bot and script use has ]. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix ].... ] (]) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{pb}}I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to {{u|Whoop whoop pull up}} two weeks ago () about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed ''me'' to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have ''continued'' to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at {{Section link|User talk:Whoop whoop pull up|Checking IABot runs}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. ''Both'' should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here ''neither''. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. ] (]) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.
			:* Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
			:** ] says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, '''whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page'''" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
			:** BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of ]. Now, ROLE ''does'' have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple '''managers'''", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're ''developed and maintained'' by a team of people (rather than ones that can be ''used'' by multiple people).
			:** Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to ''50,000'' pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the ''only'' people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved ''despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible''; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they ''were, in fact, approved'' implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
			:** ] seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
			:** ] says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ''''", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
			:** ] provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
			:* Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
			:** ] says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved ''despite'' the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).
			:] <sup>] 🏳️‍⚧️ ]</sup> 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.
			::"Both should take reponsibility"
			::-] at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? ] <sup>] 🏳️‍⚧️ ]</sup> 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.
			::::Policy is very clear, '''don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus.''' ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. {{pb}}These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot.]] 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"}} Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. ] (]) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			== A bizare editing war on the trotskyist organization list ==
	User:AirportExpert has repeatedly uploaded third party images of airliners copied from websites, without any indication that such use is permissible, and indeed sometimes in the face of clear language claiming copyright. See ] and ] for two current examples, if they have not been deleted; the latter is a repeat. I don't claim any great expertise in image copyright, fair use or non-free use matters, but a pretty serviceable rule of thumb for me has always been, "pictures taken by other people that you find on the internet are presumptively copyrighted and aren't fair game for uploads" (absent an appropriate license or fair use rationale). I've had a couple of exchanges with AE about his liberal re-use of third party images, see ], but he has continued to upload them. I raise the issue here because either 1) my understanding of these issues is incorrect and I'm overreacting or 2) AE is a repeat infringer and warrants a stronger warning than I seem to be able to supply. (NB: AirportExpert previously contributed under the name of ], where additional copyright / licensing issues appear.) ] (]) 21:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
			*{{pagelinks|List of Trotskyist organizations by country}}
	*Their edit summaries (and edits) at ] also show a complete lack of understanding of how Misplaced Pages's attribution policies work. (For instance "".) - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 23:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I do a fair amount of copyright work and your rule is a good working rule. The parenthetical comment is important - I occasionally run across people over-reacting and missing that a site had a CC license for the text, or a Flickr image had an appropriate license, so I just want to emphasize (if others are ready it) that the parenthetical comment is important.--]] 01:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Oh, crap. We had a long-term abuser from years ago who did this as a serial pattern, uploading dozens and dozens of aircraft images they scraped with false credits, across six or seven accounts I found. I can't recall the name... Moonriddengirl, is this ringing a bell? (poke) ] (]) 04:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::{{userlinks|Verybluesky}} was one of them. I'm looking for the rest. ] (]) 04:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Aha. {{userlinks|ANigg}}. See also ], ], ]. Account created in 2007 and commenced copyvios in 2008. Seven known socks, plus Verybluesky matched the pattern but the SPI data was too stale by then. Verybluesky was created just a few months after the block of Skyfox265, the last SPI confirmed sock, and duck test passed a match. Reviewing ANigg sock edit patterns, AirportExpert pops like a flashbulb... But is four years since Verybluesky was zapped, having been created in January 2014 ( ] ). Crap. Assuming it's him again, and not a false positive match, where has he been for the intervening four years, and what myriad damage has he left us from those four years? .... Aaarrrrgggghhhhh.... ] (]) 04:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::<small>], now AirportExpert, was created in ].</small> It should be noted that AirportExpert seems to have no understanding of ]/]/], if that helps one way or the other. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 04:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::ANigg didn't either. I'm going to mail functionaries and ask to what extent SPI results from 2010 may still be accessable to see if there's any match that could be made, or if anyone remembers info that far back. ] (]) 04:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::AE was himself a sock, see ]. That being said, while I don't know a ton about image copyright rules, I do have a decent nose for socks and to me, AE and his predecessor edit with a different tone than the ANigg. Plus, while the subject matter is a bit arcane, it wouldn't altogether surprise me that Misplaced Pages might draw in more than one clueless / determined airplane ]. Still a CU might be helpful, if possible - ] (]) 11:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::] seems more like AE - not very communicative, lots of edits and tweaks to articles about charter operations. ] (]) 12:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{unindent}} ], did you get a response? Is this being pursued further? :) --] <sup>]</sup> 12:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Response was that records are not usefully kept past three months, so we are out of SPI luck. ] (]) 17:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	*<noinclude>{{tl|Checkuser needed}}</noinclude> to evaluate this thread. There is a prima facie case and a sock/sleeper check seems very well warranted.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;] ] 21:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*Bump to prevent archiving. ] 13 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*At this point in time, I don't see how a checkuser can help you. All but one of the accounts listed in this thread is stale, and beyond that there is no evidence of socking presented in this thread, just comments, concerns, and ideas. If you do have further info and/or evidence, I'd recommend you take it up at SPI. -- ] ] 21:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			In the last 24 hours some strage editing war seem to have taking place on the following page trying to remove or change it's content:
	== Block review ==
	{{archive top|result=Moot. Block has expired.}}
	:I blocked both CensoredScribe and {{userlinks|Ryulong}} for the totality of behavior over the last week above (ANI section on CensoredScribe's categories, now closed/hatted by me, with a community sanction enacted on CensoredScribe). In closing it up, based on the totality of the week's behavior, I blocked both users for 72 hours for disruptive editing.
	:Tparis on my talk page suggested this had been unfair to Ryulong. Another editor on R's talk page agreed with the block. I believe both parties were ultimately disruptive, enough to block. However, I would like to invite other admins and editors to comment, and any admin to overturn if you feel I was off base. I still believe the block was good and called for. But I could have misjudged. Input sought. Thanks. ] (]) 10:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:: I think they were disruptive in different ways. Ruy was way out of line deleting comments and wikipoodling, and CS was more obvious. Equal blocks for both was the only possible end to that, or else one would have "won" that ridiculous dramafest <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Quite frankly, I think it's way too mild. I don't see it mentioned elsewhere, but processing ] this morning, I found Ryulong adding a bogus CSD tag to an article of CensoredScribe's, for instance. Perusing Ryulong's block log, it's not obvious that it's likely to discourage them from engaging in further harassment once the 72 hours is up, but 72 harassment free hours is better than zero. ]<font color="FF8800">]</font> 10:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::''Harassment''? Have a look at ] as just one recent example. Monitoring such obvious problematic editing should result in a barnstar. ] (]) 10:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::That someone may have been on the right side of an edit war is not an excuse for harassment. ]<font color="FF8800">]</font> 11:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::I '''oppose''' Ryulong being blocked at this time. I think that while the block was meant well was just a little off target. ] (]) 13:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I also '''oppose''' the Ryulong block, as Ryulong wasn't as much in the wrong. This looks unpleasantly close to the Misplaced Pages equivalent of ''"shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out"''. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 15:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I wasn't happy about CensoredScribe adding ] to ]. His block was a good one, not sure about Ruy's block at all. ] (]) 15:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Trotskyist_organizations_by_country ] (]) 19:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: I agree 100% with <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span>, they were disruptive in different ways. Ryulong focuses his/her behavior on individuals he/sher believes are sockpuppets or are habitually disruptive. Asking for an interaction ban when this goes too far, if effective, can get him/her back to productive editing. There is no clean-up. However, CensoredScribe was randomly creating new categories without paying much attention to other editor's concerns with them. Several people have asked CS to stop or slow down and it seemed to have little effect. Now, categories, once created, have to go through a sometimes lengthy and tedious CfD process to be deleted so there can be quite a lot of clean up involving many editors. I'm not saying that all of CS's new categories weren't good, it was more that he/she wasn't paying attention to other editor's asking him/her to be more circumspect, to make categories that fall in line with ] guidelines.
			:This looks like a content dispute. As ever, it should be addressed by reliable sources (which usually don't include social media sites) and talk page discussion. ] (]) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at ] and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. ] (]/]) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Yes, this oddity appears to likely be Stalinist splinters trolling each other by adding their rivals to the list of Trotskyist groups. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I don't know if this is really bizarre -- I'd say "Trotskyist organizations getting into petty internecine conflict" is about as predictable as, oh, someone already made this exact same comment. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 06:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::<small>The disputes between ], The Judean People's Popular Front, The Campaign for a Free Galilee, and The Popular Front of Judea? ] (]) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			== Has this editor been gaming to get EC? ==
	:: I'm not sure that they deserved equally long blocks. I think Ryulong will respond to admins asking him/her not to edit war with CS but I'm not sure that CS even realizes his/her mistakes because he/she is so convinced that he/she is right and correct in their edits. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop|status=Game off|1=Editor does not appear to be gaming the system. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Loads of tiny edits, others unsourced. See also ]. ] ] 20:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Would they actually be gaming for EC if they continued their really fast edits after getting EC? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 20:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Their 500th edit was on Jan 14 15:58. They've continued to make a whole ton of edits after that point, so they're probably not trying to game. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I wondered about that also, perhaps they didn’t know they had made 500 edots
			::: That’s why I brought it here. ] ] 21:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Right. For experienced users it's easy to see when the 500 edit mark has been passed, but for a new user maybe not so much. To ] and then ] three minutes later is pretty suggestive of gaming. ] &#124; ] 21:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
			:::::You're correct, I installed a script that states how many edits an account has made but a new editor would not know about these tools or about looking at Edit Count on the Contributions page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I find that script very useful. ] ] 07:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:We'll only know for-almost-sure if the editor now does something for which thay need the extended confirmed right. ] (]) 21:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::True. But I worry about the quality of their edits. See for instance ] which added Hanim to her birth name so it now reads "Born as Ayşe Hanım" in the "Early life" section, contradicting the lead. ] ] 08:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::<small>(They have the best username, though! ] &#124; ] 15:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC).)</small>
			:::I think a reminder on their talk page to pay attention to quality when editing quickly is appropriate for now, and this can be closed as consensus against existence of EC gaming. ] (]) 19:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Agreed. ] ] 20:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:MeetSingh316 ==
	::Both of them were out of control over this categorization madness. Neither looked like they had any willingness to stop and discuss. Hopefully the block got their attention. My suggestion would be drop the duration to 24 hours and but add some restrictions. CensoredScribe would be prohibited from adding categories unless they first getting clear consensus on the talk page. Ryulong would be prohibited from removing a category added by CensoredScribe unless they first getting clear consensus on the talk page. Both are futher limited to ONE post per day commenting on the other on any given page (so one post here, one post on article talk page A, one post on article talk page B). This would stop the stupidity but still allow some discussion. Then figure a longer-term solution. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 16:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop
	*I oppose Ryulong's block. This is a case of a user with a real ] and if I were Ryulong I'd be beating my head against a brick wall too. Here are some examples of CensoredScribe's edits:
			| result = Blocked. ] (]/]) 01:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	** Implying gender discrimination and then support.
			}}
	**Then he goes around spamming talk pages with questions about categories:
			*{{userlinks|MeetSingh316}}
	**Then we start getting into the important stuff, is (read edit notices) And then clearly they've mislabeled as only a regular soldier because I think being an Elf makes him SUPER!
			{{user|MeetSingh316}}, after edit warring on ] and claiming to be "correct misinformation", appears to have ]. ] ]∫] 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I mean seriously, folks, we've got an editor who is certainly good intentioned but is just wasting our time. Sorry to say, but I think Ryulong would be justified to follow him around per ], "it must be emphasized that one editor warning another for disruption or incivility is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly, made in good faith and in an attempt to resolve a dispute instead of escalating one. Neither is tracking a user's contributions for policy violations (see above);"--v/r - ]] 18:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:*I don't think there's any question that CensoredScribe is incredibly lacking in ], but I don't think Ryulong is a good selection for someone to wander around cleaning up after them; their long history of getting into bickering is part of the reason, and another is that it is likely to generate more of the trolling puppets from the sockmaster that likes to harass him. ] ] 18:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Ok, there seems to be a pretty good rough consensus that Ryulong's block is unwarranted or at least needn't be that long. Are there any objections to reducing the block to time served at this point? ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 21:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::How do you get "a pretty good rough consensus that Ryulong's block is unwarranted" when so far here there are nearly twice as many people supporting it as opposing it? —] (]) 21:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Are we definitely reading the same discussion? I count 3 explicitly opposing Ryulong's block, 1 call to give Ryulong a barnstar (which I'll count as implictly opposing), a couple others expressing doubt in the block (Liz, Dougweller), 1 to reduce the block to 24 hours, some comments that neither explicitly oppose or endorse, and 1 strongly implicit endorse (WilyD). How did you get your count? ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Speaking only about whether the block was warranted, I count Georgewilliamherbert, DangerousPanda, WilyD, Liz, Ravensfire, Lukeno, and myself (the "another editor" referred to in the OP) as speaking in support; Johnuniq, Hell in a Bucket, TParis, and yourself as opposing, and Dougweller as "unsure". So that's 7 to 4, plus 1 undecided. Of users supporting the block, there's one here (plus another one not mentioned here but active on Georgewilliamherbert's talk page) who supports a reduction in the duration. —] (]) 22:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::I suppose I'm the "another one" (that's kind of exciting): I support an unblock if such-and-such a request is made; see Gwh's talk page. Last time I looked, a couple of hours ago, I got no indication whatsoever that Ryulong was aware that their edits were deemed very problematic. ] (]) 23:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::: Truthfully, I have less concern over a three day block and more about post-block behavior. I read CensoredScribe's Talk Page and it looks like some editing restrictions are in place. If CS's errors decrease, I don't think that Ryulong will be stalking him/her. I should add that while most people have focused on CS's creation of new categories, categorization oversight should also include placing articles into and out of categories. Because a small proportion of editors focus on editing categories and with HotCat, one single-minded editor can do a lot of damage in a short period of time if they don't understand Misplaced Pages's categorization guidelines. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 23:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	*In all fairness, Ryulong responded in the same manner as the last two blocks in December, almost got him an ANI in January. I think the 24 hour and the 3 day block in lieu of a much harsher Arbitration Enforcement block is at this point a sign of amazing resistance because the time prior to that was also waived because he was blocked during that same exact period. Last I checked, going against explicit sanctions by Arb Com is not something dependent on being blocked for a different matter. The fact its so short on the back end of so many recent blocks shows mercy and that two wrongs do not make a right. And its almost over already. ] (]) 05:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	*I agree with what Psychonaut wrote , i.e. the block was justified. And no, they did not receive the same "punishment". CensoredScribed also got an indefinite editing restriction. ] (]) 21:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	*{{nao}} If I recall correctly, Ryulong '''should''' have known better in editing and wandering over the line for being disruptive. ] indicates that at one time they were an administrator, but were striped of the bits. I'm more inclined to leave Ryulong's block in place. They've been at the drama central many times for a great many reasons, having tweaked the right people to cause a full out fight at AN*. I'm tired of the perpetual drama machine. ] (]) 21:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			== User:مشرا ==
	Seeing as my block expired and no one bothered to unblock me early can we {{tl|hat}} this thread?—] (]) 11:59, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop
	{{archive bottom}}
			| status = BLOCKED
			| result = User indeffed. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Pigsonthewing and BLP ==
			}}
			{{Userlinks|مشرا}}, who is ] and already got multiple articles deleted (e.g., ]), has now started a promotional campaign in favor of jihadist ] and his self-published book '']'', which they also promoted on other pages (e.g., ]). I would support an indefinite block from mainspace, as already proposed by {{u|Mach61}}.<span id="Est._2021:1736929082988:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt">{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 08:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</span>
			:I've given the user a ], since Urdu seems to be their primary language () and their apparent grasp of English doesn't inspire confidence in their potential as a long-term contributor on enwiki. --] (]) 08:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	I am concerned with {{user|Pigsonthewing}} and his view of BLP. He has been creating a whole heap of unreferenced BLPs, examples include , and . All three articles are now referenced - but the references have been added by other users. Pigsonthewing seems to be on some kind of mission to churn out as many of these poor, BLP-violating articles as possible, and I view his editing pattern in this regard as disruptive as he seems to be expecting others to clean up after him. Despite me raising the matter ], he continues, with the latest, on , containing one 'reference' so poor that it is basically unreferenced. As a minor issue, you will also note many of the articles containing basic formatting errors, further evidencing that Pigsonthewing shows little care for the articles he is creating. My request for him to add a basic reference (something as simple as a bare URL link to an online biography) to the article before clicking 'save' does not seem onerous. ]] 17:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			::], for some reason your signature doesn't seem to have worked there. ] (]) 08:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*For such an experienced Wikipedian, these actions are very troubling. I think the creations are linked to a message on his userpage; "I am working on the European Parliament project over the next five days and shall have limited opportunity to edit here." My guess is that he is just churning these out and intending to come and fix them later, but that doesn't sit well with BLP at all. I've read his comments in his talk page discussion, and is incredibly concerning; it's an atrocious response to a genuine concern, and shows a tremendous lack of interest in following policy. I wonder if Pigsonthewing has ever read ]? ] ] 18:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::Fixed. Not sure why, but ] didn't subst: the template. --] (]) 08:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I have a tremendously low opinion of unsourced articles (I am in favor of deleting them immediately, regardless of subject matter), and an even lower opinion of people that create unsourced articles (with the caveat that if the creator has only been here for a week, they might not know better). Now that he is aware that users consider this a problem, and now that we know that he doesn't intend on handling the issue constructively, I recommend that Pigsonthewing be blocked for disruption if he creates another unsourced BLP article. ]&nbsp;] 19:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Also: ] since the "not new to ANI" link in the original post doesn't point to archives. --] (]) 08:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I wouldn't create something like but to call it a BLP ''violation'' is putting it a bit strongly; the first two Google hits confirm. ] (]) 20:57, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			::You are also requested to help new people instead of blogging, of course new people need your help, you and all others are requested to delete any content on the page that violates Misplaced Pages's rules. Go against it and keep the page just with a few words to identify the historian and his book, it won't hurt Misplaced Pages, I hope you help newbies, thanks. 08:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)] (]) 08:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	**While not a "''violation'' violation", the fact is that ''all'' new BLP articles are ''required'' to be sourced, full stop; while in that particular article's case you could say it's technically sourced, the other three linked in the OP don't even have that and would be instantly - and justifiably - {{tl|Blpprod}}ded. While I can understand Andy's desire to have all European MPs bluelinked - and we should - creating substubs like that is...inexplicable. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 23:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::We certainly want to help newbies, but "]" is not an argument to keep something. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	***Yes, it's an important requirement they be sourced and concerning her is not taking the time to do so. Looking through it's probably best to merge these all into a list, as most don't appear to have anything else worth saying (i.e. a biography) and parroting a self-written bio is probably not a good idea. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 23:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::Moreover, you should stop promoting that terrorist as "an influent historian" and his work as "the most important history book ever" {{sic}}. That's just a bunch of ]es and ]. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 09:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*The project is :
			:::PS: You've been editing enwiki for years, stop hiding propaganda behind the "newbie" label. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 09:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::"We now have the opportunity to visit the European Parliament in Strasbourg in February and perform a photography and editing project for the '''764''' MEPs there. In particular as the next elections for the European Parliament are upcoming in May, these new articles and photos are under a strong focus of the public."
			*'''Blocked'''. I have blocked the user indefinitely as being here only for promotion, for serious competence concerns, and for repeated outrageous accusations against the reviewer of one of their drafts. ] &#124; ] 15:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC).
	:If these articles are going to be "a strong focus of the public", the public isn't going to get much information from these sub-stubs. But maybe the MEPs who are up for re-election (or their aides) will nip in and fill them out? The prospect of getting their own articles in Misplaced Pages before the elections may have helped spur the MEPs to grant access for this project. Nothing wrong with that ''per se'', but surely the requirement isn't to create an article literally within 30 minutes of taking the MEP's picture as was the case ? I don't understand the rush. ] (]) 11:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	: I'm struggling to see how this post is actionable. Certainly you can't be calling for administrative sanctions against someone for creating stub BLPs? If you see one floating out there without references, prod it and it will be deleted per policy. My impression is that these are being created with high likelihood that they will be fleshed out in the short term. --] (]) 16:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*It is utterly inappropriate to create a whole host of unreferenced super-stub BLPs. This is not a complaint about "stub BLPs" (these are one-liners), and there are far more than just one being created without references. For such an experienced Wikipedian (one with 110k edits at least), this is completely inexcusable, as his response to the case has been. ] ] 18:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*From an established user creating articles in this type of condition is unacceptable. They are fully aware of our policies and a view to come back to them simply isn't good enough, should be left until they have the time to do it properly. And the part of the reply by him saying ''Your alternative is to not be a ]'' is entirely uncalled for and certainly doesn't address the clear issues here.] ] 20:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	*Ah well. Those stubs are really not good and very disappointing--but it can be argued that we're better off with them (I'm not saying I subscribe to that argument). The initial question about them was fair, and then stuff goes downhill, with a bit of support from "helpers" on both sides. Andy calls Snowman a dick, Snowman goes to ANI. But try as I might I cannot find where our BLP policy forbids a BLP without sources from being created in the first place. (That a sourceless BLP can be prodded doesn't mean a sourceless BLP cannot stay.) So no measure will be taken against Andy, and unfortunately his stub creations and the subsequent overreaction (this very thread--sorry, GS) is just one more unpleasant experience for all involved. Best thing to do for all involved editors is to turn some of those articles into DYKs; that's the only thing that will make you feel better. ] (]) 03:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*I'm sorry but to say this is a "overreaction" is unfair, numerous editors seem to share my concern about this editor's lack of regard for BLP. ]] 11:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*Agree with Giant Snowman and count me as another concerned editor. If you create a series of unreferenced BLP's and you have 110k edits, you are way out of line. I don't care what policy or lack of it says, common sense in my view says it is just selfish, and the name calling by Pigsonthewing compounds the attitude problem. As far as editor and admin action on this issue, since it appears to be ongoing, I'd be willing to look at a ban on new BLP's for Pigsonthewing as a remedial step. I further find it troubling that there has been no response here. I'd call it gaming the system. This all approaches a protective block, as I see it. ]]] 12:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*I would support an indefinite topic ban on the creation of all new BLPs, to remain in place until such time as Pigsonthewing can understand they fully understand the policy and the problem. ]] 12:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	While it's not quite the "Paris is the capital of France" quintessential wiki-example, saying in The Age of Google "María Muñiz de Urquiza is a member of the European parliament" (EP) is pretty darn close. Has Andy falsely accused anyone ''not'' a member of EP as being one? I'll quote part of ]: "All quotations and any material '''challenged or likely to be challenged''' must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an ]." (emphasis original). Is Muñiz de Urquiza's membership in EP actually being challenged? <small>]</small> 12:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::*However that ignores the fact that all BLP articles must have one reliable source, it also ignores his questionable reaction to being brought up on it. Someone with his longstanding should clearly know better on both counts. Their is no need or urgency to create these articles in this state.] ] 12:59, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::*"all BLP articles must have one reliable source" -- wp:blp says that where, exactly? <small>]</small> 13:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			== Scam phone numbers being added to articles, rangeblock needed ==
	Agree with NE Ent at 12:46. Cut Andy some slack here. He's a very busy, highly experienced contributor, who generates very solid material -- as well as launching initiatives like ], which really caught the media imagination.
			{{atop|1=Block applied directly to the range. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			IPs from the have been adding fake scam phone numbers to the articles of airlines and travel companies. Similar issues have recently led to ] and ] being semi protected and 223.190.83.251 being blocked. I think a rangeblock is needed, and a lot of the contributions in the link above need to be revdelled to get rid of the scam number. I went to AIV at first but there is a severe backlog there and the vandalism is continuing and chronic, so I'm here.<span id="Ser!:1736944547951:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;''']''' <sup>(] - ])</sup> 12:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)</span>
			:This has now been sorted. Thanks Zzuuzz. ''']''' <sup>(] - ])</sup> 13:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No problem. Just noting that this isn't their only range, so probably expect others. Thanks for your vigilance. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 13:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ] bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools ==
	Currently he's trying to get a lot of stuff done in the European Parliament, as well as give a good impression of WP to some important opinion makers. Can we please therefore show a bit of ''trust'' in an editor with a long and excellent track record, and leave him to get on with what he's doing. If there are still problems in a week, then by all means we can come back to it. There's a lot he will be aiming to do in a very short period of time with this EU Parliament outreach, in a foreign country with contacts he needs to make and build as he goes along. So let's get out of his way. However stubby these articles may be in their initial transient state, there is every reason to be confident they are likely to evolve rapidly, and long-term issues are unlikely. ] (]) 13:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|PEPSI697}}
	:Let me add that Snowman's objection to was paricularly absurd. The guy is an MEP, so clearly notable; and, while the article was only a micro-stub, its content ''was'' sourced by the reference given. If you're introducing Wiki to a group of people, a stub like this can be ''exactly'' what you need as a baseline, to then show the article growth process (as well as giving a basic active URL that's then in place for any automated or semi-automated tools you may be then using).
	:Again, Pigsonthewing is a very experienced editor, doing (yet again) important outreach work. So let's give him some trust, and the chance to get on with it. ] (]) 13:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*I'm sorry, but to even remotely compare the widespreadness of the knowledge of an MEP's name/role to Paris being the capital of France is utterly absurd. Almost everyone knows that Paris is the capital of France. Many people, myself included, have absolutely no idea who these people are, and there is '''absolutely no excuse''' for creating an unreferenced BLP, because it takes 10 seconds to dump in an unformatted reference, thus negating the problem. If you don't have enough time to reference a BLP, then either create it in userspace, or '''do not create it at all'''. I cannot fathom how any of you are defending these actions. ] ] 15:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*He's is an experienced editor thats the point. There is no reason whatsoever that an experienced editor should be creating articles in this state, time is no excuse. We have userspace and afc for a reason nor is the European Parliament project an excuse that these should be rushed into article space. Personally i would support a topic ban as he clearly has no sense of wrong about creating articles of a living person in this state and is intent on ignoring that policy. His reply to GS and further ones on his talk page were also highly uncalled for.] ] 18:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::* If ya'll want to make up a rule that no unsourced BLP articles can be created, start an RFC. But as of today, there is no such rule. <small>]</small> 22:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*Misplaced Pages has no rules, and you know that full well, Ent. You also know that it is inappropriate for any user to create an unreferenced BLP; that's the whole reason BLPPROD exists, after all. It is excusable for a newbie who doesn't have any grasp of policy. It is categorically inexcusable for an editor of 110k edits, let alone one whose initial response is "Your alternative is to not be a dick". ] ] 08:22, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.
	*Pigsonthewing has dismissed our concerns as . ]] 13:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) {{Diff2|1264943166|a message}} for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person {{Diff2|1264946563|made a discussion on the talk page}} about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me {{Diff2|1264940021|this}} message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I {{Diff2|1264940623|didn't understand what exactly was the issue}}, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I {{Diff2|1265117356|wish him merry Christmas}}, he wishes me, everything is fine.
	{{od}} Uuuuuuuuurgh. Guys, there's a significant difference between random drive-by editors creating single-line articles on Brazilians who may or may not have played professional football (watching those BLPs is a hell of a task, and one which those responsible should be thanked for) and project ambassadors (with years of experience) creating them as part of a hands-on attempt to get more editors involved in the project. This isn't some sort of breaching experiment designed to break down our rules on BLPs: quite the opposite. Nonetheless, Andy is (as one of our most public editors) someone who should be setting an example, and it would be unfortunate if those very editors he's attempting to encourage ended up getting rapidly batted for creating their own unsourced BLPs. I'll have a word. ] (]) 16:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Which he has since . ]] 18:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: {{Diff2|1269540618|1}}, {{diff2|1268720318|2}}, {{diff2|1268521356|3}}, {{Diff2|1268313652|4}}, {{Diff2|1268308516|5}}, {{Diff2|1268121077|6}}, {{Diff2|1268119998|7}}, {{Diff2|1268118180|8}}, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is ]. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor ({{u|Augmented Seventh}}): {{diff2|1269323555|1}}, {{diff2|1269333853|2}}, {{diff2|1269126403|3}}. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.
	:: Are you helping? Is this helping? Is it making your proposed topic ban more likely? If I didn't know all the actors involved here my eyes would certainly have rolled out of their sockets already. ] (]) 20:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi {{Diff2|1269543780|replaced}} my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential ] violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to {{Diff2|1269546279|seek clarification}} as to why they did this on their talk page. In {{Diff2|1269548452|their response to me}}, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me {{Diff2|1269576325|this}} message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see {{Diff2|1269577089|this}} edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me {{Diff2|1269580448|this}} message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. {{Diff2|1269580707|This}} edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.
	== Corrector11744 ==
			I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - {{diff2|1269549064|here}} they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when ] ] for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of ] without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. ]] 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hi, I was hoping to get other eyes on this. While acting in a reviewer capacity, I reverted a religious demographics table submitted by editor {{u|Corrector11744}} to an article on ]. I rejected the table for being improperly sourced--it uses another Misplaced Pages article as a reference. I learned that the table had been removed a few minutes earlier by {{u|Deor}}, also for being unsourced. A random IP tried to revert my edit, but I took care of that. Assuming good faith, I looked at the ] article and couldn't find any mention of Moradabad. I even tried to find the religious distributions at the Census of India, for example , but I couldn't track down those data. I left a note on the user's page, but then of course the user ignored the notice and . Again, I couldn't find these regions mentioned in the Demographics article. Deor reverted these tables, and Corector11744 re-reverted without explanation or improvement of sources. My primary purpose for this report is to ask admins to look into this and maybe offer the user some guidance, or if it's clear that the edits are disruptive, that the editor be discouraged from continuing. Thanks! ] (]) 19:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	:(Responding to a post on my talk page by Cyphoidbomb.) People's adding unsourced information, usually in graphic form, about the religious demographics of Indian towns is a very common occurrence. I usually delete it when I see it, as I've never been able to find such information in authoritative sources (and specifically in Indian census data) and it seems to have the potential for contentiousness. ] (]) 19:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I've undone a few of these. THe editor was also adding to a number of similar tables added by {{user|101.218.185.95}} last October. ] (]) 14:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Thank you Mr. {{ping|Dougweller}}! ] (]) 15:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:I just reverted another such on ]. This user changed the religious percentages by exactly 5% (skewing things toward Islam) and then inserted a bar chart with the unsourced numbers. --''']'''&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 14:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I considered an indef now (I view indefinite blocks as just that, blocks that can be lifted at any time if we are convinced they should be lifted) but gave a final warning instead. Ping me if this continues. ] (]) 15:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::{{re|Dougweller}} Noting the somewhat ]y contributions of ]. Thanks, --''']'''&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 14:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			:I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. ] (]) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Ban proposal for ] ==
			::That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and ], you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. ]] 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. , for example, they say: {{tpq|Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. }}. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. ] (]) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. ({{Diff2|1269544073|1}}, {{Diff2|1269540089|2}}, {{Diff2|1269335610|3}}, {{Diff2|1269126904|4}} {{Diff2|1269098577|5}}, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). ]] 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Seeing {{tq|no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism}} is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ ] (]) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. ] (]) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the ] (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." ] (]) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments {{Diff2|1269580448|demanding}} that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. ]] 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@]: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
			:::::
			::::@]: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are ''obvious'' vandalism.
			:::::
			::::Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, {{tqq|You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents}} - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you ''will'' stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you ''might'' stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. ]] 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{nacc}} {{ping|PEPSI697}} A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page ], ] and ]. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at ] and ] because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.{{pb}}FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on ] that you get {{tq|stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it}} when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been ]. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you {{tq|sometimes don't understand what some words mean}}, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.{{pb}}Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- ] (]) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to ]. ]] 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. ] (]) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Response and apology from PEPSI697 ===
	As per ]'s suggestion I thought of bringing this issue up here. I know it wasn't that long since Katrina started posting and copy-pasting hoax articles of Filipino child actors, but this is eventually becoming a nuisance, given his persistent and relentless efforts at recreating and spawning faked articles. ] (]) 06:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:'''Support''' - Having had to perform unnecessary good-faith research until it occurred to me that ], I would support a ban so that future victims could revert all edits instead of having to go through requisite good faith welcomes, and good faith explanations for why you deleted their hoax articles, and good faith warnings, and good faith detailed reportings at AIV or SPI... Because we all spend far more time getting our "this person is an asshole, and here's the proof" case together than the sockpuppet spends committing their nonsense over and over again. ] (]) 06:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::'''Comment''' - Agreed on that, as that would save time with knowing what's going on. Not to mention that since this is a regional, Philippine-centric subject, and relatively few people from outside the country knows the ins and outs when it comes to local showbiz, it would be of significant benefit for other users and admins to be informed about Kat's modus operandi. ] (]) 07:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:'''Support ban''' – Agree with Cyphoidbomb; this editor has wasted far too many others' time. ] (]) 02:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	*<small>Timestamped to prevent archiving. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:16, 15 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
	:'''Support''' Persistent disruption over several months --] (]) 22:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' - Persistent hoaxers have absolutely no place here. ] ] 08:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' Chronic hoaxsters have no place on Misplaced Pages.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;] ] 13:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] and serial evasion of community-wide ] ==
	{{archive top|Situation has been resolved. More socks put in their draw, from both sides of the dispute (AA and Daft). Non-admin closure. ] ] 08:27, 10 February 2014 (UTC)}}
	The subject speaks for itself and I'm sure many admins are already familiar with the Daft saga and its impact on ] and the site generally. Two things to be said first: one, if this is not the right forum, please direct me; secondly, I do not intend to keep this account open for long as I prefer the privacy of IP editing but I think an account is needed to fight a troll like Daft effectively.
			:I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the ] or looking at the ]? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.
	Okay, see ] for recent activity (cases 1.37 to 1.41 starting 27 Dec 2013). You will note if you care to look through the CDTPP contribs that Daft got away with that account for a long time because he behaved himself (for a while at least) and because some in CRIC decided to forgive him and make him welcome. However, leopards and their spots. In due course we were back to normality and especially so in the case of 86.138.166.244 where these diffs are totally unacceptable and show Daft for what he is: see abuse in and towards ]. Again in and and on ] where abuse to ] continued.
			:Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. ] (]) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Tyrhonejustinemarasiganmartinfloresmallari's editing ==
	Having seen those edits and realising that Daft is continuing to flaunt his ban and get away with it, I decided to act myself. I will point out that I have worked on CRIC as IP for a long time and have encountered Daft before so there is history and I am sick of his antics and his inflated view of himself. He makes grandiose claims to be the "most expert cricket writer on the site" and yet his "good edits" can be summarised ''at best'' as mere ] or trite POV. Take for example. See how typically ] the edit is and then ask yourself if anyone really needs to know that the Earl of Winchilsea was 61 when he played in a minor cricket match in 1814!? As I say, that is Daft's idea of "good editing". Bad enough but what really annoyed me was his habitual condescending abuse towards Nedrutland and 331dot highlighted above. I decided to implement the terms of ] and remove all of Daft's input, "good" as well as bad, and reawaken the CRIC members to the problem. Users like Nedrutland and 331dot are not members of CRIC (at least, I don't think they are) and they should not be having to clear up a mess that is largely CRIC's doing. Why is it CRIC's doing? Because certain people in CRIC have failed to act against Daft in compliance with site policy and have even offered him sympathy and a safe haven.
			{{atop|status=Plblocked|1=Blocked from article space. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|Tyrhonejustinemarasiganmartinfloresmallari}}
			{{Ping|Tyrhonejustinemarasiganmartinfloresmallari}} continues to make several unreferenced edits in several articles, despite being told several times in their talk page to post references. The reported editor was also told many times, to use the edit summary, and looking at their contributions page, they haven't explained any of their edits through their edit summary. They also never respond to talk page messages. Is there anything that can be done with this? I have reported this editor in ANI back in November 2024 and they didn't respond as well.] (]) 15:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Since they have never listened nor responded to talk page since November 2023, I suggest a 7 days block with talk page access, the block should specify that they can appeal the block by explaining themselves, and that they should explain themselves rather than waiting out the 7 days or committing sockpuppetry, the goal is to get them to talk. ] (]) 16:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	While I was removing the Daft inputs, I found and where Daft had done his usual by running from ] to user talk pages and, as usual, the person he ran to was ]. Now see ] whereby Johnlp politely refused to have Daft removed from his talk page. This was, fair enough, before TYPGTTO was blocked by the Daft SPI but the posts are still there and so is , unsigned as usual, though Johnlp "peremptory deletion". Checking his talk page, I see that has already happened per by ] in Dec 2012 (the 2012 Daft posts and Black Kite's erasure of them were all, well, erased at the time). That sets a precedent where Johnlp is concerned.
			:It looks like they have never used a talk page. ] (]) 17:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			Blocked from article space indefinitely. If they provide a reasonable response anyone can unblock them. ] (solidly non-human), ], ] 17:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Without wishing to annoy Johnlp who is a top class editor and a good writer, I believe the admins need to instruct him forcibly if necessary about ] and ]. Daft sees him as a sympathiser, with some reason it must be said, and his talk page as a safe haven. Take Johnlp out of the equation and Daft has nowhere to go. If he appears on WT:CRIC, someone will revert sooner or later. If he attacks an article, the chances are that it will be on someone's watchlist. I strongly recommend that the Daft edits now on Johnlp's page are removed and that the page is then '''protected''', regardless of the owner's view on that. His only possible complaint could be that ''bona fide'' IPs will be unable to write to him but, his page history shows that he hasn't received any IP posts apart from Daft in the last three years, so protection will not impact him in the slightest while it does keep Daft away.
			{{abot}}
			== Topic ban or ban on creating articles outside the AFC process? ==
	I would also ask that an admin places a notice on ] asking members to be vigilant and to use ] whenever they spot anything that Daft has done, citing ] or ] as their reason for reverting.
			{{atop|status=Sock it to them|1=PsychoticIncall blocked for sockpuppetry. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{Userlinks|PsychoticIncall}} has been an editor since March of last year. As can be seen on their Talk page and on the page creation log, since May 2024, they have created dozens of articles and unlikely redirects, many of which have been deleted after AfDs. Currently, from their talk page alone, I count 29 articles on non-notable poker players that ended up being deleted, and a further nine that ended up as redirects or a merge to a more appropriate article, with only six of the AfD'ed articles being kept. This is obviously a drain on the time of people who regularly participate at New Pages Patrol and/or AfD.
	Finally, there is I couldn't remove as the page is locked and the owner has gone. Could you please remove that one too to complete the job, especially as it insults two admins ] (I think) and ]. Sorry this has been a long post. Thank you very much. ] (]) 08:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)		A to become more familiar with ] and ] and to consider using the ] process for new articles (and to not create unlikely redirects) went unanswered. 23 articles have been deleted/redirected since then, by my count.
			While notability is the main concern, sourcing, spelling and grammar on these pages are all less than ideal. An IP about the user's process for article creation (also unanswered), specifically asking about apparently random/non-sequitur section headings (which can be seen still in place at ]) - similar seemingly random headings were also used on the (now-deleted) article ] article (mentioned in the ].) Many of the surviving articles use essentially random terms, with poker players being described (without sources) as , and .
	:Just wanted to clarify that I know nothing about what HCCC14 describes above other than my brief interaction with the IP address mentioned. As such I am unable to comment on any other aspect of this matter. ] (]) 09:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::That's fair enough but as I have mentioned you, it was only polite to let you know. Thanks again. ] (]) 09:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			I would like to propose ''either'' a topic ban from poker and poker-related articles for PsychoticIncall; ''or'', at minimum, a ban on creating articles outside of the ] process. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	: A notice seems to have been placed on ] to watch for this guy, and the latest socks are blocked. Is further action needed here? As an aside, re: "the privacy of IP editing", how exactly is editing in a such a way that allows you to be geolocated more private than editing from a registered account? --] (]) 15:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			:You stated that 23 articles have been deleted since September 2024. But are these 23 articles newly created since September 2024, or prior to that? If they have reduced their article creations over time as their articles get deleted (of which 6 survived), I don't think any ban is appropriate, and uninvolved editors should weigh in on a guidance in creating poker player articles in the future. ] (]) 18:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I accept that as far as it goes except that I strongly recommend action on ] to remove the Daft posts and then protect the page to prevent more being placed there. As I say, this will take away Daft's "safe house" and leave him with nowhere to go. By refusing to remove Daft posts, Johnlp is assisting Daft to evade his ban. I must remind you that ] set a precedent here in December 2012 and it must be followed up to keep Daft off that page.
			::A better question to ask is "Is their ratio of good work to bad any better?" I'd say no, it's not significantly better. I'd support a topic ban or article-space ban; their attachment to the topic seems to keep them immune from listening to requests to change their behavior. - ] ] 22:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Re your aside, IP addresses can be very quickly changed and I don't care who knows I live in the Midlands. So do several million others. Just checked my current IP and it geolocates to a place that is over two hours drive away in another county! But if you have an account you're stuck with it and no escape from unwanted attention. Pros and cons but I like IP. And so does Mr Wales according to one of his public pronouncements. :-) ] (]) 16:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::I looked at their user creation logs, and they markedly reduced their article creations after Bastun's warning on 17:55, 2 September 2024, seeing they only created 4 articles which admittedly 3 were deleted. I think anyone creating 4 articles and having 3 articles deleted is not ground for ANI. They made a lot of redirects that were deleted though, I think a warning against careless redirect creations is appropriate, because it appears they listen to warnings. ] (]) 07:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::A quick check of the creation logs is showing me that since 30 September, they have created 32 redirects, 5 of which remain undeleted, and 9 articles, 2 of which remain undeleted. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			Please just block them indef, they not only have massive competence issues but they are a sock of a blocked editor, . I can provide more evidence or start an SPI if necessary. ] (]) 09:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I'm in the throes of moving house and am not around much currently so I haven't been keeping up over the past couple of days. It's likely my internet connection will disappear over the weekend for up to two weeks (as UK broadband connections are slow to arrive, and then slow too when they get inside our houses). So I'll be brief. But I think I ought to respond to something that seems to have got suddenly rather hysterical. My pleasure on WP is to write my own articles and to improve others and you'll see from my edit count that that is what more than three-quarters of my work has been in the past eight-and-a-half years, a lot of it on cricket. I come on here for quiet enjoyment (I'm close to retirement, so work is no longer fun), and because I think WP is essentially a good thing. I don't get involved in fights or politics, and I try to stay polite to all other contributors: and much more important to me than who they are is the quality of the contribution they (and I) make. My over-riding rule around here is ] and that's stood me in pretty good stead. So if someone makes a remark on my talk page that strikes me as worth responding to, then I'll reply. If some of those people then turn out to be reprobates, or even "new users" with rather uncertain past affiliations and associations, or who ever, then I hope I'll treat them with the same courtesy. On "Banned" users, I presume the process by which they were declared unacceptable should sweep their contributions from all pages, my talk page included: I'm simply not interested enough in this process to spend my limited WP scouring articles to see who's now in the dock or who has already been summarily dispatched. Strangely, in eight-and-a-half years, AGF has worked for me, and I've had almost universal politeness back, even from now "Banned" characters: my talk page may well be one of the blandest in WP. Maybe because I'm not rude to them, and because I try to be careful my articles are at least competent and not careless, I don't attract insults and vandalism much at all.
			:Oh, wow - good catch! Looking at ], it looks indistinguishable from ]. Note also the use of the invented (?) term, "quarter professional", in article titles on that talk page, a term PsychoticIncall also uses. Quack. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::If I have internet access over the next day or so, I may respond further if there are any points or questions anyone would want to raise with me... but if I don't respond, it'll be because the switch has been thrown on my current system. Sorry if that sounds discourteous, but housemoving is like that. One day you're here, the next you're... ] (]) 01:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			:I think this is a convincing case for SPI, please start it. ] (]) 12:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've started it. - ] ] 12:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::However, there is a big gap in time since EBBB was blocked until now, so we may not get good CU results. But I'm going to block on behavior for now. - ] ] 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:Adrikshit ==
	Well, indicates you knew full well who TYPGTTO was : Daft. As for ], your sarcastic reference to "past affiliations and associations" is ]. And wrong. Okay, I admit I was a little hasty in removing the TYPGTTO posts from your page TWO HOURS before the SPI was actually completed. I apologise for my haste. Now that both TYPGTTO and 31.50.133.173 have been officially confirmed and blocked as Daft socks, the offending and offensive posts must be removed in compliance with ].
	You say above that you "come on here for quiet enjoyment" and that WP gives you "pleasure". Fine, but doesn't that also apply to those members of CRIC who have been continually harrassed by Daft for several years? How about giving them a bit of understanding and help so that they too can enjoy "pleasure" and "edit quietly" without being harrassed and libelled and subject to sick taunts every few days? How would you like to routinely receive like this? You wouldn't, would you, or else why did you write and [
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket&diff=prev&oldid=589622362 this] about someone who finally cracked under extreme provocation and retaliated against Daft? Not that I condone "vile" retaliation, as it must have been to warrant erasure, but it seems to me that double standards are operating here.
	All you have to do if Daft posts on your talk page is revert and say "not interested" in the edit summary. If he persists, remove and cite ] or even ]. If he still persists, get one of the admins to protect your page. Get that done anyway. You have received no non-Daft IP posts in three years so what have you to lose?
			{{userlinks|Adrikshit}}, has been continuously adding ] content or changing referenced content, often relating to Bhojpuri related articles.
	The three posts any decent editor would object to are and by TYPGTTO (now blocked as Daft sock) and by SPI-confirmed Daft IP. All three posts are ] against other CRIC editors who are not presently able to respond. All three posts breach ] and ] and just about every other policy and guideline on the site which insists on respect towards other editors and all three are a continuation of everything you will find in ]. You know perfectly well who the author is and you are in direct breach of ] by effectively sheltering one of the worst trolls operating on the site.
			*'''Some examples:''' , .
	You will have noticed, I hope, that I have not been here as a single-purpose account because I have also taken the time to improve two CRIC stubs. Nothing special. Just a consolidation of information that someone might find useful someday. However, even that little bit of positive effort has contributed kilobytes more to CRIC than Daft has "contributed" in several years. You might like to think about that too when you consider "quality of the contribution".
			*'''Examples of ]''': , .
	Finally, I wish you well with your removal. I had a nightmare move from Hampshire to Derbyshire three years ago but it was worth it in the end. It's over to you now. If you do not act or respond by tomorrow night, I will assume you have lost your connection and will remove the Daft posts (and my own!) citing ] in the case of Daft and ] in my own case. I shall then complete my retirement. ] (]) 11:45, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			*'''Examples of ]''': , , , , .
	:Right. As I unexpectedly continue to have internet access, I’ve dealt with the offending the contributions to my talk page as I have no great wish to challenge or get into a debate about the WP:BAN policy as a whole. I am however very uncomfortable with the way you have pursued me in this way, and pretty uncomfortable with the continuing search for manifestations of Richard Daft, which borders on the obsessive.
	:You say you have not created this HCCC14 persona as a “single issue” account, yet you had done no other editing except on Daft issues before you put up the “retired” notice on your account, though you then returned to open this thread and after that did some other editing. You say you are not a renamed ] and, by AGF, I am bound to accept that; yet let me reassure you that none of the insults that AA has had to endure at the hands of Daft approached the comment that AA himself made which resulted in the admin intervention; you, of course, will not have seen that comment since it was erased. Had the admin not intervened, my view is that AA and WP as a whole could have been looking at a libel case, and perhaps more, with Daft rightly as the plaintiff, which would be an extraordinary position. As I wrote at the time, I saw and deprecate the provocation by Daft, but that doesn’t excuse the response, which went some distance beyond.
	:You might also consider the interesting case of ], now banned as a Daft sock, but whose talk page indicates welcome and encouragement from ]. Jack, if you remember, had four or five years of unpleasant attention from Daft far in excess of the criticisms that AA has endured, with his professional integrity continuously impugned. Yet it seems that they reached a rapprochement and even worked together in some areas.
	:No one could condone Daft’s outbursts against individual contributors and his sporadic vandalism, and of course they should be removed and reverted wherever they occur. But ] is patently very easy to circumvent, so, like one of those fairground games where you hit the rat with a mallet, no sooner have you dispatched one Daft manifestation than another one pops up. You can perhaps win individual battles here, but you’re not winning the war. And continuing to wage the war in an episodic way such as this is potentially just as irritating as the occasional Tourette-ish flurry of unpleasantness from Daft.
	:I think you need to change your strategy. If you concentrate on the disruptive edits rather than the person of the disruptor, then you’ll find that many of us already do that kind of work of reverting and removing anyway, as well as tidying up articles that contain wrong facts, bad links and verbosity... and trying to create some reasonable contributions of our own. ] (]) 12:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			*'''Warnings''': , , , , .
	::There was no "continuing search" by me. I was reading ] one morning and followed the link to the Burley Park article where, lo and behold, was Daft. Couldn't miss him. I scanned the page history and soon came across the typical condescending insults and unnecessary aggression towards NedRutland and the other guy as mentioned above. Seeing that, I decided something must be done, given that so few others are prepared to do anything. I have only "pursued" you because you are not complying with ] and you are granting Daft a "safe haven" from which to sound off his stupid prejudices and harrass other users. I see the London-based IP below has named three of the main targets of Daft (there are two others he has overlooked) and it goes without saying that those five are all among the top ten contributors to CRIC and all of them have outdone even you in terms of quality and probably quantity of contribution, whereas Daft has contributed NOTHING.
			I made contact with this user for the first time, after reverting an edit, in which the user changed the names of the headings on ], this edit went unnoticed for a while, but a similar one was reverted before that. There was also dispute on the Bhojpuri page, in this case I do believe I should have jumped to ] faster, rather than continuing with reverting. However the user often jumps to ] or warnings: ,
	::As for the AA comment when he retaliated, I have already acknowledged that it must have been bad or he wouldn't have been blocked and the post wouldn't have been erased. But that is OUT OF SCOPE. This topic is about Daft, not about AA, and the bit about legal is entirely inappropriate here. Daft is subject to community-wide ] and you as an editor are bound to comply with that and deploy ], though acting in accordance with ], whenever and wherever you encounter him, even if he is only correcting a typo.
			I don't really know how to further deal with this. ] (]) 18:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I see that there is nothing about this dispute at ]. ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Based on the discussion mentioned above, I think it is unlikely that that would have been resolved, besides changing the headings, the user also deleted other names of the languages and how Caribbean Hindustani is also based on another language besides Bhojpuri: . ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Suspicious activity of several accounts ==
	::You say "concentrate on the disruptive edits". I have done. I removed a few dozen of them the other day! The point is that you and the other CRIC members have NOT been removing them and you have, until today, stedfastly refused to remove Daft posts which attack other editors from your talk page. This despite the precedent set by ] in December 2012 when he was forced to erase posts from your page in what must have been similar circumstances. Given that BK ''erased'' those posts, they must have been extremely unpleasant too.
			{{atop|result=OP has withdrawn complaint. They know the way to ] and have been encouraged to make use of it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			I'm not going to take this to sockpuppet investigation because I don't have enough evidence of sockpuppetry. So I'm going to report it here just in case, someone could investigate this situation. {{ping|Kaloypangilinan}} restored {{ping|CindyMalena}}'s edits in these two articles.. I reverted CindyMalena's edits because they were unreferenced. Both these editors didn't add a reference to the same names they've added in the two articles and they didn't use the edit summary. These are the unreferenced edits of CindyMalena. The changes of CindyMalena/Kaloypangilinan aren't 100% identical, but they've added names that the references of the article don't mention. Kaloypangilinan has been warned 4 times (last year) in their talkpage for unreferenced content. Kaloypangilinan also don't respond to talk page messages, they've been reported here in ANI before, and still continue to make unreferenced edits. Since I became suspicious if these two editors are connected, I discovered CindyMalena created this page for "Kaloy Tingcungco", an actor in the Philippines according to Google. Then I googled "Kaloy Pangilinan" in google and pictures of the Philippine actor "Kaloy Tingcungco" came out. Whats weirder is CindyMalena edited the Wikipage of this blocked account ]. I don't know how can a newly created account edit a Wikipage of a blocked editor, if they aren't connected. ] (]) 18:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You really should take this to ]. For one thing, if you're right, it's the appropriate venue. For another, if you're wrong but have put together a case with behavioural evidence such as the editing of a blocked editor's user boxes you're less likely to get accused of casting aspersions. My sincere recommendation is to withdraw this incident report and then create a SPI case. ] (]) 18:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The bottom line here is that you have breached ] by deliberately refusing to deploy ]. If I were an admin, I would seriously consider blocking you, especially in the light of the Black Kite precedent. I would certainly issue a stern warning. It is all very well for you to advise me about what I should do, and I will take some of your better points on board, but the ball is deep in your court in terms of your, shall we say, accommodation of one of the worst trolls on the site.
			::Per {{ping|Simonm223}}'s suggestion, I'm going to withdraw this incident report. As for a SPI case, both CindyMalena and Kaloypangilinan have less than 200 edits and I simply don't have enough amount of evidence to report them in Spi. ] (]) 19:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::], why do you think the editors have to have made 200 edits before they can be reported? Some editors who have been blocked as sockpuppets have made 0 edits. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The last editor, I've reported relating to sockpuppetry before this was ] had 71 edits. Looking at the contributions page of Kaloypangilinan and CindyMalena, I don't have much evidence aside from what I already posted here. I did notice the similar behavior of no communication in their respective talkpage and not using the edit summary. Like I said, I don't know how can a new account can locate this page ], since the user page of ] is empty and their talkpage don't have any posts that would direct new users to ]. I would need more evidence if I ever report something to SPI. I've only submitted reports in SPI, twice if I'm remembering correctly. ] (]) 20:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|Hotwiki}}, if you have enough evidence then you should report suspected sockpuppetry at ]. If you don't have enough evidence then you shouldn't report it anywhere. ] (]) 20:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I did make a mistake coming here about this issue, thats why I already withdrew this report. Also, I've only made two sockpuppet reports (if I remember correctly) which both were stressful for me. With Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena, I just didn't want to go through the same process with fewer evidences, which is why I came here to ANI. ] (]) 20:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It sounds like @] is just looking for assurance that it's OK to take this to SPI with this evidence?
			:::::::Hotwiki, I'm not an admin or a checkuser, nor an expert on SPI, but you can always try submitting a report. It's easier if you use Twinkle. There isn't any rush to submit a report, you can take your time. ] (]) 20:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you {{ping|Knitsey}}. For now, I don't feel confident filing a SPI report against CindyMalena/Kaloy Pangilinan. The last SPI case I made was stressful because the sockpuppeteer had several accounts. I ended up doing 2 reports which were both confirmed right. Last month, I reported a sockpuppeteer in ANI because they admitted it through their talkpage and it was connected to those two times I made a report in Spi. But this is a different case with Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena. If I get more evidences in the future, I would go back to it and send it to SPI. Thank you for the suggestions and I'm sorry if I brought up my sockpuppet suspicious here, since this isn't the right place for that. ] (]) 21:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User Douglas1998A creating incorrect categories. ==
	::As promised, I intend to effectively terminate this account today. I hope your removal goes smoothly and, finally, I would like to thank you for belatedly removing Daft from your talk page. ] (]) 16:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== User:50.121.48.234 ==
			Two weeks ago I opened ] on {{u|Douglas1998A}} creating and adding incorrect categories to pages, most notably on ] and ]. In November 2024, they created ] and added it to ] and ], even though they are not American telenovelas. The category was deleted but in December 2024, they created ] and added the previously mentioned pages to this new category when they are only Brazilian telenovelas and not American ones. . The category was deleted and the user created it once more today and added it to ] and ] again.
	After ] was blocked for a period of one day, he has made an offensive edit on his ], insulting the administrator who initiated the block. If I am at the wrong page, please direct me. <b>]</b> <sup><b>]</b></sup> 16:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Personally, my approach would be to just revert it and move on. If they continue adding insults, we could revoke talk page access, but that seems a bit premature at this point. ]] 17:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::{{ping|Mark Arsten}} might interest you. ] 17:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Ok, I've revoked talk page access. ] (]) 17:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::I the interests of accuracy, the insult was to the admin (me) who responded to his question; clearly in a way he found unsatisfactory. The block was imposed by another admin is response to this. A short block is reasonable, and I suggest that his activity be watched, ideally by an uninvolved admin.--<font color="Red">]</font><sup><font color="Black">]</font></sup> 20:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::<s>It seems that at least one attack was directed to {{u|Mark Arsten}}: </s> wait, the IP editor is already blocked. ] (]) 02:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{od}}The I.P. editor is back, making disruptive edits and insulting other users again. He has a dynamic I.P., as well as using proxies in talk pages. List of known I.P. addresses that he has used: ("]", "]", "]", "]"). I expressed concern that he would return after his block expired, and unfortunately, that appears to be the case. Regards, ] (]) 18:54, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			The first time this issue was brought up to the noticeboard it was never resolved as the user ] after being notified of the discussion, and they have never bothered to reply back to messages on ]. How can this be resolved if the user continuously fails to engage in ]?] (]) 19:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Outrageous paid COI accusation by Wnt ==
			:{{ping|Sammi Brie}} Your take? ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	I'm writing about by {{u|Wnt}} on his/her user talk, and particularly the fifth (last) bullet in which he/she, clearly referring to me, suggested to a third editor in a most thinly veiled manner that I have engaged in paid COI editing at ] and ]. What this has to do with the previous discussion is beyond me, except that in the last few days I've butted heads a bit with Wnt on mass surveillance issues. What I find so outrageous about this conduct is that Wnt is a very experienced editor but apparently hardly even lifted a finger before engaging in such wiki-libel against me. As I to him/her, the accusation was not only verifiably false but verifiably the ''exact opposite'' of the truth. For example, in December I even a ] report against another contributor to ] for paid COI editing.
			:Pretty obviously a communication is required problem and also wrong. The telenovelas don't have any American production outside of one being dubbed into Spanish by a U.S. broadcaster, which does not count. ] (she/her • ] • ]) 19:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Has Douglas1998A done any positive work in Category space? Because if it's just warring over these two categories, they could be partially blocked from Categories unless their other work creating categories is fine. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Per Douglas1998A's talk page, two other categories created by them were nominated and deleted. These were: ] and ]. So I believe there it's more than just the Brazilian/Portuguese categories.
			:::I have also mentioned to Douglas1998A that pages should be placed in the most specific categories to which they belong. For example on ] they persistently added ], when the page is already in the subcategory ].
			:::Douglas1998A's lack of communication and reverting edits show they are unwilling to discuss and resolve the issues with their edits. ] (]) 21:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:A day has passed since the user was notified of this discussion. They have continued editing and have not bothered to reply. The user is ignoring the issue and it will once again be unresolved. ] (]) 18:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{User-blocked}} from article space per ]. Once the user begins commmunicating and adequately addresses these concerns, any admin is free to lift the block. <b>]</b><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 20:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Bad redirects by User:StrexcorpEmployee ==
	The full discussion is . I repeatedly demanded a retraction and an apology, but what I got was a and then a .
			{{atop|1=StrexcorpEmployee was blocked by Beeblebrox, and then unblocked by me with ] from most redirect creation/retargeting. Bugghost is warned for personal attacks in the form of repeated false allegations of sockpuppetry. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 23:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|StrexcorpEmployee}}
			I'd like to ask for a tban on making/changing redirects for StrexcorpEmployee, as they continue to make ridiculous redirects that waste community time.
			Examples include:
	Unfortunately I don't think this can be written off as a one-time incident. It is part of a larger pattern. Several editors who have been ] on mass surveillance articles have been smearing other editors in similar fashion (examples , , ). One editor of this broader group was for related conduct in November. Advocacy editing is one thing, but repeated punches below the belt are another. I don't believe an indef is appropriate in this case, but a clear message should be sent that the community will not tolerate this sort of behavior. --] (]) 22:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			* ] → ]
	: Looks to me like you are getting your feathers ruffeled over nothing. Nothing you or Wnt has done (that I can see) has ben egregious, or even bad. ] (]) 23:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			* ] → ]
	: I'm not seeing it either. Can you (DrFleischman) quote what Wnt said that actually bothered you? That diff is pretty long and mostly not about you. If you have a beef that ] exists, then that's probably not actionable. (As a sort of disclaimer, I've created articles about such topics myself, but I didn't even know there was a related WikiProject until now. I don't see how that is any worse than, say, ].) ] (]) 23:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			* ] → ]
	::I think from the context, the objection is to {{tq| the appearance of great writers who make a habit of editing ] and ], people who note on their userpages that their views don't represent those of their employer... I know nothing about this, but I suspect it all sounds expensive.}} That does sound like a rather oblique accusation of COI paid editing, but not at all clearly aimed at anyone in particular, at least not unless you chase down the references. ] ] 23:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			* ] → ]
	::: Ok, given ] this ANI report seems to be some editors not seeing eye to eye on the Snowden etc. stuff fighting some proxy battles on ANI now. ] (]) 23:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
			* ] → ]
	::::DES is correct, the full offending language is:
	::::{{cquote|That said, I don't mean to underestimate the value of your effort; the appearance of great writers who make a habit of editing ] and ], people who note on their userpages that their views don't represent those of their employer... I know nothing about this, but I suspect it all sounds expensive. You can donate money to Misplaced Pages and have them spend dollar for dollar in combat with these folks, or accomplish the same for free at the cost of nothing but ... frustration. Just because Misplaced Pages pays nothing doesn't mean it ''costs'' nothing for somebody with the opposite agenda and little general public support. There have been idiots who have gone down to protests to smash shop windows who may have inflicted less financial expense, and that at random.}}
	::::Translation: "Keep up the good work; Dr. Fleischman is being bankrolled by unpopular special interests, and righteous volunteers such as you and I can put pressure on their benefactors by forcing them to spend more money on him." I can certainly explain how Wnt was referring to me (something he/she semi-acknowledged in the ensuing discussion) bur not right at the moment, since I have to attend to the little Fleischmans right now. --] (]) 23:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::: Maybe Wnt is wrong about more than one thing? Or not talking about you? You seem to have done very little editing at Wiki-PR (exactly 3 edits according to ). And I don't see where he said you edited pro-ALEC, so I'm not sure how you inferred that. ] (]) 00:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::: It would be indeed better if Wnt stopped casting these vague ], but I doubt any admin is going to take any actions based on what he actually wrote. ] (]) 00:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::: Seems to be a rather bizarrely non-AGF "translation" <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::Ok DP, what do ''you'' suppose Wnt meant? --] (]) 01:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::: I wouldn't presume to do such a thing - but I sure wouldn't personalize it :-) <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::When people are writing about ''you'' I have a hunch you'd try to understand what they mean, just as I did. If you think my interpretation was a stretch, please do me the dignity of explaining why. AGF isn't the same as ATDMWTW (Assume They Didn't Mean What They Wrote). --] (]) 06:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			Their talk page is completely full of notices that redirects they have made are being discussed/deleted, and they have , including a ] from {{u|Tamzin}} to stop making bad redirects.
	<strike>This seems rather plain to see, but...</strike>
			Also likely had , as in last year (and if not sockpuppettry, ] - calling them a "weirdo" "creep" "stalker" while mocking the sock's "]" redirect while defending their own "]" redirect).
	'''Evidence that Wnt was writing about me:'''
	* ] says: ''"My contributions to Misplaced Pages do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer."''
	* Scroll the bottom of ]. Two of the last few threads are about ] and ].
	* In the Wiki-PR thread I declined to get into a dispute about accusations of paid editing.
	* I'm the biggest contributor to ] (especially in recent months).
	* Wnt and I have been skirmishing a bit the last couple of days over at .
	* Wnt's : ''"You aren't the only person I had in mind when I made that comment, anyway. The way you keep materializing - here in response to a conversation with one other editor, at ] right after I reverted a removal by a different editor, and your persistent removals at ] do make me suspicious. ... I ''do'' expect the pro-surveillance side to take some kind of action at some point ..."''
	--] (]) 01:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			Preferably an indef block but a redirect TBAN would probably suffice. ]&nbsp;] 20:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I'm not sure what to make of this. To begin with, as you see there, I was trying to talk one editor, then ''two'' editors, out of quitting editing Misplaced Pages. I don't yet know if I have succeeded, or what my odds are now. I only mentioned the ''possibility'' of paid resistance because we have all shared the experience of seeing an (overly) enthusiastic discussion of possibilities for blacking out the site or running all articles about surveillance at Jimbo Wales' talk page, only to quite abruptly run into a wall of troubles over running DYKs or even preserving article content. I was trying to reassure Hector that ''if'' we were up against hired guns, at least that meant we were costing someone money. I don't think it should be a Wikicrime to say such a thing to another editor as a mere possibility to look out for or consider. I had already given up trying to edit ] because of DrF's resistance, only to get reverted by him on another page, and then I was being told to avoid speaking, even in the most peripheral terms, about what would happen if someone were being paid. And despite all that, I even indulged him, removing the comment he had complained about right away, basically because it was a careless observation; it was not something I was planning to take to a noticeboard, just a way of saying 'cheer up..." He demanded that I immediately "retract or apologize" - have I not retracted enough something I never even said? Do you think I really owe him an apology?
			:I've issued an indef block. The final warning was issued 29 months ago and ignored, like every other post to their talk pages. Willingness to communicate with other users is a requirement, not an option, and these redirects are so childish that they remind me of the ] saga. ] ] 20:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I should emphasize on the broader issue of advocacy that I have been trying to take a wave of outside enthusiasm and channel it into accepted forms of Misplaced Pages work that should improve the encyclopedia long term. Moreover, this particular form of "advocacy" is special, first because Misplaced Pages ''did'' participate in the predecessor event spearheaded by the same people against SOPA, and second, because merely ''editing'' Misplaced Pages is a political act in this context. There is another wiki, ], where people tried to do work not that different from that on Misplaced Pages, though with a less developed set of standards, and in the process of that ] was charged with a potential 15 year prison sentence for citing a source. Misplaced Pages can't really be neutral about something like that. There is a fundamental tension between those who want to make the sum of all human knowledge available to everyone and those who want to make the sum of all human communications available to themselves, while denying you the right to even know they exist (and hitting Barrett Brown with another 20 years or so for trying to look up their home address). So my point all along has been that for this purpose, Misplaced Pages is by nature an activist organization, just by the routine work of building articles, and so advocacy can be accomplished while acting fully within the rules of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 02:19, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			::That was quick, thanks! ]&nbsp;] 20:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	* I think it's clear from the stuff said above and the talk page conversations linked that ANI can't help with more or less vague mutual assumptions of bad faith from editors who disagree with each other on content issues. This thread is creating more heat than light, and I don't see any administrative action forthcoming, so I propose it '''be closed''' by an uninvolved admin. Demanding an ] while climbing the ] seldom accomplishes anything. ] (]) 03:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			::@]: My warning was for a specific kind of bad redirect creation, which has not recurred, although "United Rapes" bordered on vandalism, which is enough to make me think she shouldn't be creating redirects. I tend to think that StrexcorpEmployee is here in good faith and just has a bad sense of what makes a good redirect, and her unblock request seems reasonable. (There's also the sockpuppetry question, but two CUs ruled that unrelated, so I don't know where BugGhost is getting her "likely" being a sock.) What would you think of an unblock with a restriction limiting redirect creation to ]—if she'll agree to it? <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 21:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Setting aside the question of blocking/unblocking, {{re|Bugghost|p=,}} I can't say I'm thrilled that you referred to my 2022 warning as a "final warning from Tamzin to stop making bad redirects", when I ] that it was narrower than that, nor at you calling SE likely a sock while linking to an SPI where two CUs cleared them—which is, to be clear, ]. I expect that someone filing at AN/I will disclose the full facts of a case, not just the ones favorable to their side, and definitely not a selective omission of exonerating evidence. Invoking NPA over calling an LTA a "creep" for impersonating them, in a comment six months ago, is also a Hell of a stretch. If you're going to bring someone to AN/I, bring them here with the facts that exist; don't manufacture controversy. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 21:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Honestly didn't mean to misquote you - your words were {{tq|If you create another redirect based on a SubredditSimulator post , where that is not a term that ''a human'' would plausibly use (as with ] and ]), or again create a vandalistic redirect for any other reason, I will block your account for vandalism. }} - I interpretted the phrasing "If you do X again I will block you" as a final warning. You're right that I shouldn't have used "bad" in replacement for "vandalistic" because they're not the same, sorry about that.
			::Regarding the SPI link, I wasn't trying to imply that the CU's were incorrect - I said the sockpuppet account was ], who was not mentioned at all by CU's there, but is a pretty obvious ]. I'm not trying to manufacture controversy here, I just saw a few bad redirects and looked around. ]&nbsp;] 22:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tqq| StrexcorpEmployee behaves differently from previous sockpuppets, and this sockmaster has a known history of joe jobs}} — ] in the SPI report for Smackarea. A clerk in that case, rather than a CU, but... well I may be biased as a former clerk, but a clerk saying someone isn't a sock is usually <em>more</em> exculpating than a CU saying it. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 22:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::], I think the conditions you lay out for an unblock are very reasonable. Let's hope ] sees this message today. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I was having lunch with my wife and driving around in the snow, just got back.
			:::::I'd be fine with an unblock with a tban on creating redirects, as they were creating stupid redirects as recently as yesterday, and frankly "United rapes" was enough on its own to have justified a block months ago. I'm somewhat astounded that some of these redirects went to RFD instead of being speedy deleted.
			:::::I do think they should be reminded as well that communication is part of what we are doing here, and not responding to messages on their talk pages until ''after'' they are blocked is not a good look. ] ] 22:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::And for the record socking was not in any way part of my reason for blocking, which I logged as "''Disruptive editing creating infantile vandalistic redirects, never responding to any communication on their talk page''" which I believe is accurate. ] ] 22:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Unblock per adequate unblock request. They did "make ridiculous redirects", but they did not "make ridiculous redirects that waste community time". Tamzin's warning was an "only warning", not a "final warning". Two out of five redirects listed were the subject of Tamzin's warning and outdated. SPI exonerated her, instead of finding her a likely sock. ] (]) 22:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::To clarify:
			::* All ridiculous redirects waste community time
			::* An only warning is also a final warning, by definition
			::* SPI exonerated her of being {{u|Heres The Dealio}}, which I'm not disputing, but made no conclusion about {{u|Smackarea}}, the only account I mentioned being a likely sock. But the sock is irrelevant in the grand scheme, so I'll drop it.
			::Either way, I'd be fine with a redirect tban instead of a block, if consensus is leaning that way. ]&nbsp;] 23:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@]: You are simply incorrect. Sro23 found that she was not Smackarea on 25 July. It's not enough to say "I'll drop it" while repeating a fallacious statement even after you've been told you were wrong, so I'm going to make this a warning: Falsely accusing someone of sockpuppetry is a personal attack, and if you are unable to correctly read an SPI so as to understand which accusations have been verified or falsified, you should not be in the business of making sockpuppetry accusations, and certainly should not be doubling or tripling down when told you are wrong. On that note, I'll be closing this, as I've unblocked her. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 23:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Two editors and WineGUI ==
	I'm on my way out the door, so no details (or apologies) to follow, but I'll just chime in to say Dr. Fleischman has a behavior problem. He does seem to have a hand-full of 'friends' he takes a special interest in, often showing up to arguing with them in conversations not related to him, or making a special point of reverting their content. At first I assumed it was just shared subject matter, but he seems to keep showing up at the right time and place to trigger arguments and edit-wars, adding lots of heat and very little light. <br/>I agree with {{u|Someone not using his real name}}-- close the thread and hope that's the end of it. I just chime in to predict you'll see this individual at ANI again in the future. --] (]) 03:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = Danger89 indef'd per ]. Justcomic1 indef'd as an ] sock. ] (]/]) 02:51, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			*{{userlinks|Danger89}}
			*{{userlinks|Justcosmic1}}
			*{{articlelinks|WineGUI}}
			Two editors, {{Noping|Danger89}} and {{noping|Justcosmic1}}, have been constantly pushing for what seems like a restoration of the ] article, which was changed to a redirect per an AFD I started, complete with a ]. Timeline of events:
			* I start the ], citing a genuine reason in the AFD that the article shows no importance or notability whatsoever. I did this after I started a PROD, which was reverted by Danger89 (they're a developer of WineGUI, I'll explain later).
			* In AFD, all editors unilaterally vote yes. Danger89 replies to almost all of them, giving a source of their GitLab page, and saying it's not primary. When asked why they are writing an article about their own product (aka ] violations), they just say something along the lines of, "I don't like it"
			* After the AFD is closed, I take a look at Danger89's user page. There, they state that they '''are''' indeed the developer of the app, so I leave them a notice about COI with a stern warning that they may be blocked if they continue to ignore COI rules. In response to this, an IP which can confidently be assumed to be Danger89 logged out just writes {{tq|block me}}, showing a disruptive attitude.
			* Danger89 cites a userbase number on the WineGUI talk page to which I reply that notability does not depend on things like that. Justcosmic1, within 3 edits, twists the PROD policy by saying that I knew there would be opposition (no I didn't), and saying that I have a beef with Danger89, failing to cite any evidence.
			* Danger89 blanks my userpage, to which I give a generic level 4 warning. After this, Justcosmic1 joins the conversation and writes a reply that looks like it was from Danger89. This appears to be their fourth edit, which looks extremely suspicious and like a sock (not making any allegations, but just saying). Their other 3 edits were on the WineGUI talk page.
			Also, Danger89 continually edited the WineGUI page while it was still up, further contravening COI rules. <span style="font-family:monospace; font-weight: bold"> <span style="color:ForestGreen;font-size:1.15em"> ]</span> (<span style="color:#324c80">she/they</span> {{pipe}} ]) </span> 01:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	The editors above appear to be trying to turn this into a broader content and political battle, something it's not. This seems really quite simple to me: '''Wnt has falsely described me to a third person as a paid editor on the weakest of suspicions.''' Wnt continues to stand by that description, and despite being proven embarrassingly wrong continues to stand by the assertion with a "nothing to see here, move along." I commend him/her for giving a pep talk to fellow editors, but not for doing so at my expense. We should all be able to have content disputes like the ones described above (really rather minor, I might add) without being subjected to this type of behavior. Perhaps we need {{u|Drmies}} to explain how this is any better than . In fact it's worse, because Wnt identified the "intel boy." Not express identification, but identification nonetheless. --] (]) 04:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Al-Naghawi page ==
	: DrFleischman once declared his exasperation about another editor's behavior which he described as "" only to himself engage in very similar behavior " on another article, followed by rants on the talk pages of editors who raised an eyebrow followed by ultimatums to another . Wnt casting vague aspersions of COI with which DrFleischman then easily self-identifies for ] is surely ] to deal with his behavior, but then ], ], and ] applies too. As another sampling point, DrFleischman immediately chided another editor for expressing his exasperation with him while freely dispensing his own snotty "advice" like , and "" to those trying to discuss matters with him. If other editors posted a warning to his talk page every time he says something disrespectful toward them, then DrFleischman's talk page would be miles long. But I guess playing the hurt ] works well enough around here. Unfortunately, I've seen this tactic successfully used on ANI before. Phrasing the personal attacks in the snotty imperative seems to bypass the civility filter of most admins. DrFleischman's continued insistence on an apology or block of Wnt well after Wnt removed the questionable allusion (this ANI report was filed after DrFleischman declared his impatient dissatisfaction with that solution ) is just another example of the general ] attitude exhibited by DrFleischman. ] (]) 08:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			*{{articlelinks|Al-Naghawi}}
	::I've been quietly watching some of the disputes with DrFleischman, albeit not this one with Wnt. There's a good deal of editors needing to work better together, on both "sides", and I'm skeptical that ANI will be the place to resolve that, but I think that the specific accusation of paid COI editing gets waived around way too much. It's a serious accusation if true, and should be pursued at ], but just saying it about someone with whom one disagrees about content or POV ends up being, at best, a cheap shot, and at worst, a personal attack. --] (]) 20:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			currently there is an edit issue going on with the Al-Naghawi page as information is being changed back and forth alongside the page's title name so I wish for admin intervention to resolve issues as sources are not being checked which are cited as they are irrelevant to the page. ] (]) 08:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Agree, if editors such as Wnt really are concerned about me engaging in paid COI editing then the appropriate place to raise this would be COIN. I would encourage them to lay out all of the evidence and we can have an above-board community discussion about it. What happened here was much more cowardly, IMO. I shouldn't have to police Misplaced Pages's back channels for smear attacks against me. --] (]) 04:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			:] is thataway. → - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Bizarre, petty hatchet job this. I'm surprised that SNUHRN, an editor I've had hardly any interaction with in the past, would stoop to such a low level. He's apparently gone deep into my edit history to dig up what he perceives as "dirt." Thing is, it's not, and even if it was, it has nothing to do with this discussion thread. I guess SNUHRN has some vague issues with my editing style generally. Well if he does, I welcome him to raise them on my user talk, where perhaps we can discuss them like adults. --] (]) 04:28, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::: Aha. Thanks for the personal attacks. I've only posted examples of your problematic behavior from two threads in which you've been recently involved, both closely related to this incident that ]. The only "digging" is one unrelated post of yours that I did remember because I also post/read DGG's page; that's pretty much the only memory I had of you before this incident. I didn't and don't object to the concerns you had about that editor (the one about which you complained to DGG and which is better to remain unnamed here), but you seem to fail to see that you have adopted a similarly problematic line of behavior in recent times. Two wrongs don't make a right, but Wnt at least knows when to take a step back from the brink by striking/removing questionable remarks. I have yet to see a conciliatory move like that from you. Instead you're asking here for Wnt to be blocked because he isn't kowtowing to you, after you've been very intransigent in your editing and behaved disrespectfully/uncivilly toward a number of editors (diffs above), only to rush to ANI after one of them questioned why you might be doing all this. And you started this ANI complaint after Wnt had already removed the vague allusion to you (chronology with diffs in my previous post). Given all the above, I suspect you'll want to have the last word here too, but unless you level more new/bizarre charges at me, I think I'm done here. ] (]) 08:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::I'm still not sure how you think I've acted intransigently, disrespectfully, or uncivilly, even with those diffs, so your allusion to WP:BOOMERANG is beyond me, but but we're ranging pretty far off-topic so again, please, let's take this to user talk. --] (]) 18:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	== Reggie Watts page admin is not keeping the page up to date. ==		== Blocked user spamming their own talk page ==
			{{atop|status=Called on the carpet|1=Blocked with TPA revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 10:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|Ramsha Carpets}}
			Blocked user is spamming their own talk page, despite warning. —]] 09:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I've pulled TPA as well, since they can't help spamming, apparently. -- ] (]) 09:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	After trying to update the page for comedian/musician ] a bot erases all edits and has his page lacking information for the past 2 years. Please remove the admin in charge of this page! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::Thank you. —]] 09:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	: I see that an editor (who is a person) supposed "filmography" credits, and thankfully so. I do see that a Bot made a single here where name of the show had become really screwed up by someone. There is no "admin in charge of this page" - we have ] and a ] that the ''community'' enforces. If you're having trouble getting your additions to "stick" then you're '''required'' to discuss them on the article talkpage to obtain ] for them <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Magian Priest's Descendant - egregious personal attacks ==
	== Disruptive editing per ] ==
			{{userlinks|Magian Priest's Descendant}}
	Two editors have asked ] to withdraw her AFD nomination here and here per ].
	Instead of withdrawing the nomination, she has asked to have the article (]) deleted, or merged with another article. ] (]) 03:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:This is not an incident requiring admin intervention. There is no requirement that someone withdraw a nomination, particularly not on the deman of an IP thats first edit was 3 days ago. The admin that closes the discussion will make their own determination about the consensus of the discussion, sues comment is irrelevant. ] (]) 04:07, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::{{ping|Gaijin42|Lightbreather}} Deman{{sic}}? No, I made no demand. I'm not the only IP here. ]. (Your IP number: http://geoiplookup.wikimedia.org/) Like registered users, unregistered IPs are allowed to "fully participate in deletion discussions, and have been ." No one's comment is irrelevant. ...{{small|] (]) 05:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)}}
			Also violated ] at ] , refusing to use the talk page (whose comments shows that they either have ] issues or are trolling). --] (]) 10:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''RESPONSE'''
			:While not strictly a 3RR violation (note the last diff is a different edit) but absolutely edit-warring, and when combined with the personal attacks in the edit-summaries, have blocked them for 24 hours. - ] <sub>]</sub> 10:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Great...another complete waste of everyone's time...
			::Thanks The Bushranger! ] (]) 11:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Non-neutral paid editor ==
	I wish I could say it was just me, but Lightbreather has been doing this sort of harrassment to many other editors as well. This is the third time she has pulled me into ANI for something frivolous, and she has crossed swords with other editors as well. For those interested, I will outline the history in the text wall below. If not interested, that's fine, the information above speaks for itself.
	{{collapsetop|Balance of SR's response}}
	first edit march 07
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=A_Hard_Day%27s_Night_%28album%29&diff=prev&oldid=118542717
			@] is heavily editing ] in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	The Lightbreather account is created and 8 edits are made, all to Beatles music related articles
			:That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:
	Now for the next six years, something odd happens, the account dies. Only four edits are made in all those years, and then suddenly, the lightbreather account blows wide open. August 2013, It's first edits are reverts, and huge ones.
			:* Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
			:* Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
			:* - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
			:* Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.
			:An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably ]. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. ] (]) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::done ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@]: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly ] reasons for them.
			::#By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as ''"has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world"'' and ''"The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality"'' + ''"The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"?'' Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate ] and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a '''very''' strong statement cited to..., seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
			::#Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally ], and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. '''If''' that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, '''then''' it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
			::#Do you '''really''' think phrases like ''"China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments."'' are consistent with ]? '''Really?''' ''Maybe'' cutting '''all''' of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
			::# That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently . It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.
			::In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably ]" seems downright ]. ] (]) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns ? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a ] and ] manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that ] is supposed to prevent. --] (]) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like ], you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't ''bad'' by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply ''not good enough'' or ''relevant enough'' for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.
			::::Given ''this'' context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not ''obligated'' to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. ] (]) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @]'s paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @] provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/
			:My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. ] (]) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::''Adding'': Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 ] (]) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*An editor with a declared COI should ''never'' be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the {{tq|strongly discouraged}} wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:] So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this {{redacted|]}}?
			*:Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that '''if''' is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering '''is not even seen anywhere on their front page''' - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as . The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. ] (]) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq|Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)}} - that would be wrong. See ]; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we ''want'' editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read ], and especially ] Having a ''perspective'' on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. ] editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then ] needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.
			::::It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah ] editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that ''every'' edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it ''strictly'' barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --] (]) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*{{tqq|So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this}} Uh, guys? Does ] mean nothing to you? - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban&diff=prev&oldid=567874306
			*:@] - I think that '''sanction should be swiftly applied'''. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. ]&thinsp;] 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban&diff=prev&oldid=567874306
			*::I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: {{ping|InformationToKnowledge}}, '''do not''' attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with ''anyone's'' real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the ''principles of privacy'' still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. ]&thinsp;] 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Could we get an edit to ] for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. ] (]) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== ] back to Andrewjlockley ===
	Suddenly Lightbreather is a wiki-saavy editor, making avalanches of edits to the ] article, and it's first two edits are an edit war with ] and the other editors there, warring over the use of the word "cosmetic".
			:I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. '''However''', that does not change the fact she has been one of a '''literal handful''' of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in ] over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.
			:With that in mind, I would like to say I have '''great''' difficulty assuming ] here - not when the OP editor {{redacted|]}}, which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective '''and''' when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.
			:I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the ], the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.
			:P.S. This is '''really''' not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::With the greatest of respect @], your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @], or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether ] had a conflict of interest when they edited ], which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. ] (]) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::See ]... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.
			:::All of this is pertinent. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that {{noping|EMSmile}} has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that {{noping|Andrewjlockley}} is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. ] concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.
			::::The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If {{noping|InformationToKnowledge}} is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be ''they both should be'' though.
			::::Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. ] (]) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. ]&thinsp;] 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Please reread ], and especially ]. The suggestion that being a ''published academic on a subject'' constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of ], which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::as per {{redacted|]}} is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.
			:::Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. ] (]) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to ]. ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.
			:::
			:::
			:::If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. ] (]) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of ] before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? ] (]) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for ] that arises as a result.
			::::::*With regards to ] has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the ). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
			::::::*AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for ''more'' SRM research in their day job {{redacted|encouragement of ]}}. Also, ] explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be ''against'' doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
			::::::*I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by ] on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
			::::::*Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). ] (]) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery or], but I'll respond anyway.
			::::::::I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.
			::::::::Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way ] (]) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I wish to clarify the relationship between the (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.
			:::::Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was , for ten years, and is the l. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is , one of five authors of , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of . By quick count, of the other 14 authors on , one other is on the governing board, at least eight are , at least two are , and one is among .
			:::::In the other direction, of ESG's , eight have signed the .
			:::::The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. ] (]) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? ]&thinsp;] 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.
			::::::For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. ] (]) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an ''oversight'' on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	On August 10, the second day of her "return", she makes 18 edits, twice as many as the account has made in it's entire history of 6+years. On Aug 11: 15 edits, on Aug 12: 22 edits, Aug 13: 19 edits, etc. etc. until by September Lightbreather is regularly editing 30 times a day to that single article, fighting with the editors there, mostly edit warring over the word "cosmetic". Ignoring a consensus that was already reached in a RfC about the word prior to Lightbreather's sudden interest in that single article.
			*:This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. ]&thinsp;] 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that {{user|EMsmile}} has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is '''also not on'''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::... gonna ask in talk page of ] if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point ] (]) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::], I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::{{ping|Liz}} the diff of them ''placing'' it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Does Wikimedian in Residence apply? ===
	I should point out that the FAWB artcle was stable prior to all this, and edits to the article were limited to the occasional Gnome edits or to Bots performing various tasks. These edit avalanches were disruptions, and when the editors there complained, Lightbreather began to actively recruit editors and admins to her "cause". This began only ten days after her "return"
			EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit wikipedia seems analagous to . See also ]. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no ]. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. ] (]) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? ] (]) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:RJFJR&diff=prev&oldid=568567171
			::I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. ] (]) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:My situation is totally different to @]. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @] adjusting the page '''to favour her client''' (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. ] (]) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the ] article ]. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per ].
			::Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding ]- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.
			::Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. ] (]) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. ] (]) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile ===
	She starts a second RfC about the word "cosmetic", and continues recruiting/canvassing pro-gun control advocates.
			Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. {{Noping|EMsmile}} is a paid editor who violated ] - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight ''are highly disruptive'' - and that's notwithstanding the ''paid editing.'' Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. ] (]) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:JennKR&diff=prev&oldid=568735788
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Tekina_g&diff=prev&oldid=568735962
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:AndrewRT&diff=prev&oldid=568736235
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Sue_Rangell&diff=prev&oldid=568734930
			:'''Oppose block, support ]ing EMS for almost ], ]ing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for ].'''- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.
	etc., etc., etc.
			:the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically ] suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group ] (]) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	But did you notice the last one? It's me! Yes, '''Lightbreather and I are on the same side politically speaking''', so you might imagine my surprise to see her behaving in this horrible way. I attempted to reach out to her several times, as did many other editors:
			::From ] {{tq|WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages}} - this seems not to be the case here. ] (]) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lightbreather&oldid=570578592
			:::like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.
			:::want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi applies] (]) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by ] - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. {{U|Bluethricecreamman}} has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether {{U|EMsmile}} was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. ] (]) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. ] (]) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see ] apologize for the ] that occurred. ] (]) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. ] (]) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*'''Strong oppose''' <small>(uninvolved)</small> there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in ''simple ignorance'' (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not ]).
			::That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, '''it fails a DUCK test''', and ''looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor''. What I see is a properly disclosed ] editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. ''These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors.'' Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't ] going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :]&thinsp;] 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: <small>((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above)</small> 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, ''otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month'', 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that ''AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI.'' They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including ''very questionable'' off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where ] was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT ''recent'' contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a '''grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI''' (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month ''for over 11 years'')... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either ] or ]. ]&thinsp;] 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Maybe everyone gets ]s at this point and we move on? ] (]) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.
			:::::However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for '''potential civil-POV'' which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like might come off is overly whitewashing, but {{tq|China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.}} but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does <u>call into need for a closer look</u>, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. ]&thinsp;] 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong support'''. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, ] applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that ] only ''strongly discourages'' paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --] (]) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose and IMO unthinkable''' They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	On Sept 4, her RfC is ]. It is closed early by an admin and Lightbreather proceeds to go ballistic. Not only does she ignore the consensus, her alone vs. twelve other editors at this point, but she starts the real bullying that has been her trademark since day one.
			*:{{tq|made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit}}: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.<br>I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. ] (] · ]) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:CoastRedwood - Harassment ==
	She continues flooding the article with multiple '''edit avalanches''', and the article talk page with "issue floods", and begins making trivial complaints anywhere she can, such as this one, claiming that the capitalization of the article name was "original research":
			{{atop|1=Blocked for a week and warned not to do this. Good grief. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|CoastRedwood}}
			Repeated personal attacks, harassment and not following behavior policies by CoastRedwood. Despite multiple warnings from multiple editors to address the behavior, CoastRedwood has edited other users' pages, engaged in personal attacks, made uncivil comments and is not willing to heed constructive feedback. Personal attacks/harassment - , , and editing others' userpages' , , , , , . ] (]) 13:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Yeah, that's not great. A weird ] mentality toward... emojis? Mentions of anthromorphic foxes? And, frankly, the specific personal attack of ''degenerate'' used in that specific context is... it suggests a disruptive editing mindset. I don't know. Maybe their non-disruptive work on animal species has enough value that we don't go directly to a ] block (though I am on the fence about that) but, at the very least, they need a topic ban from editing other editors user pages. ] (]) 13:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:No_original_research/Noticeboard&oldid=571828626
			::This is being dealt with on CoastRedwood's talk page by sysops, and escalating it to AN/I is premature.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	In spite of her vast knowledge of Misplaced Pages, she repeatedly sprinkles in comments about how "new" she is. It's very strange, and a number of editors notice it:
			:::Please see the timeline of the edits made. CoastRedwood is still approaching both the editors after two admins have already tried explaining it to him. was made recently after multiple warnings. ] (]) 14:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:GregJackP&diff=prev&oldid=574523971
			::::Thanks for pointing out that diff. I didn't see it. That was after my formal warning, so I went ahead and blocked them for a week just now. –] <small>(])</small> 14:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Thanks everyone! I'm not sure what caused this user to make such remarks against ArkHyena and I; also thankful for the quick actions taken while I was a bit busy. Some of the content they removed from my userpage was only intended to promote humor and just for a little fun, and their rationales for it sound questionable, at the least. ~ ] ] 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Ah, but that was your first mistake. You see, fun is not allowed on here :P
			::<sup><sub>]</sub></sup>
			::] (]) 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:Earl Andrew ==
	This came to a head when she and ] began avalanches of edits and reverts that were so bad that the page became unusable and unreadable. Lightbreather escaped a block, but her partner, was not so lucky.
			{{atop|1=Heat exceeding light. Legend of 14 is advised that ANI is the ''last'' resort for dispute resolution, not the first, and in the future should exhaust other options before coming here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive813#SaltyBoatr.2C_Talk:Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
			*{{userlinks|Earl Andrew}}
			Earl Andrew is using personal attacks against me for leaving notices on ]. It is interfering in those discussions.
	Immediately after, and I mean IMMEDIATELY, Lightbreather brought all of the complaining editors to ANI.:
	https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive813#Ownership_issue_on_Federal_assault_weapons_ban_page.3F
			Diffs:
	'''If you read nothing else of this text wall, read the above link.''' It says volumes about the Lightbreather account, and not just from me. Her attempt boomeranged on her badly. She is urged repeatedly by admins to stop editing Gun Control articles, and the FAWB article in particular. Although she continues to be combative Gun Control articles in general, she has stepped away from the FAWB article and it has become stable once again.
			*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826037
			*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826716
			] (]) 16:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Did you try discussing with Earl Andrew about supposed personal attacks before coming here? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 16:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No I did not. How does one respond directly to disrespectful comments and accusations of bad faith, followed by a suggestion that you should do their job under ] on wikipedia, because I have no idea what to say to them. I wouldn't normally resort to ANI over these comments, but in my opinion these comments are inferring in discussions on ]. ] (]) 16:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I would ask for an apology directly if I was getting personally attacked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I felt like asking for an apology in this case would likely escalate the disputes in question, and could be seen as provocative in this case. ] (]) 17:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Does opening an ANI thread for {{tq|urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems}} not escalate the disputes in question? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I don't think anything I've done in this thread could be seen as taunting or baiting. I think a reply like "Please apologize for your personal attack" would be seen as taunting. ANI escalates the dispute, but in a way that did not unreasonably increase the chance of incivility. ] (]) 17:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Neither of those is a personal attack. The second is more critical of you than the first, but still a long ways from an attack.--] (]) 16:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Accusing me of making bad faith edits, without offering any evidence to support bad intentions is a personal attack. The first diff is more of a disrespectful comment than a personal attack, I could've been more clear. Both comments are bad for the discussion. ] (]) 16:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You are removing non contentious information from a lot of articles, and claiming they are contentious. That to me feels like bad faith editing. Up for interpretation for sure, but in no way did I mean it as a personal attack. -- ] - ] 17:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Provide diffs. I can't respond to unsubstantiated claims. ] (]) 17:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Why were you deleting ]'s birthplace? ] (]) 16:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Can you please explain how this question relates to the topic of Earl Andrew's comments? If understand why you're asking the question I'll be able to give a better answer. ] (]) 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I see no personal attacks in the diffs you provided. I would say that Earl calling you a {{tq|destructive force}} wasn't very ], but ] tells me that those comments weren't "personal" attacks. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::"These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done."
			::::-]
			::::I never called him a "destructive force". ] (]) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Sorry, I misread your comment. The quote from WIAPA still stands. ] (]) 17:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I agree, that might have been a personal attack, but also please read ]. ANI should have been the last resort for you. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::See above comments for why I did not think I had other options. Also, see how even after being aware that I found the comments insulting/disparaging, the user continued to make them without substantiation https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116171300-Legend_of_14-20250116164200. ] (]) 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::''Insulting or disparaging'' is very different than having a disagreement. While WIAPA is ''not exhaustive'', neither of those diffs area anywhere in the same ballpark as the other examples -- this is a million miles away from {{tq|Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based (common discrimination classes)}}, {{tq|Comparing editors to Nazis, terrorists, dictators, or other infamous people}} or threats. There is no incivility in asking "how is something contention", even if it is prefixed with "how on earth"... If you feel insulted or disparaged because someone questioned the validity of your contributions, you need to grow a thicker skin. Also did you even read the section on top about ''Before posting''? Which of those have you actually attempted before coming here? Also as someone else has mentioned you should be cautioned about boomerang, meaning that your own actions also have a spotlight on them and you have volunteered put your own edits and conduct up for scrutiny. ]&thinsp;] 18:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No one has linked to any of my edits here. There's a difference between some criticizing an identified edit and making disparaging remarks about unidentified edits by a named editor. I can't defend the edits that the user has a problem with because they have not been clearly identified with me. When an edit I made that was identified was brought up here, I did my best to answer the questions.
			::::::I did not raise every issue here on the users talk page. When I tried to raise issues on the editor's talk page see ], I got called unconstructive. When I went to the forum ], the editor escalated by disparaging me as editing in bad faith. I had reason to believe that further discussion on the talk page would go nowhere, so I posted here under ], instead of making what I felt would almost certainly be another unproductive talk page discussion. Given that since making this notice, the user has continued to make unsubstantiated claims about my character, I think I had the correct judgement. ] (]) 18:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You have not addressed the question how the diffs you provided of EA's behavior is anywhere in the ballpark of the criteria of WIAPA. You were the one who claimed as such, so the onus is on you to substantiate in what way where their comments violating the policy on personal attacks. I would even have a hard time considering them uncivil, but even if they were, uncivility is quite a different matter than a personal attack. So which aspects of ] do you feel EA's comments closely resemble? ]&thinsp;] 19:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I believe the comments about me acting in bad faith are disparaging remarks about me and therefore qualify as personal attacks. ] (]) 19:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I also think the comment about "How in the world" is an insult against me given the context is, it was promptly followed by another comment by the same user accusing me of bad faith. I hope this explanation is satisfactory. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Suggesting my statements are a "personal attack" on you carries about the same weight as me suggesting this whole discussion is a personal attack against ''me''. You are grasping at straws. If you're going to pick fights with everyone who dares cross your path (I see you've bombarded ]'s talk page now), you may find yourself blocked. And no, that's not a threat, ''I'' am not going to block you, as that would be a conflict of interest.-- ] - ] 21:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::The only possibilities here are "extremely stupid" or "troll". Either way it's a clear case of disruptive editing. I suppose I can't do the banning myself either, now. Oh well. ] (]) 21:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I finding Dispute resolution confusing. This convo should be closed because I didn't try to resolve all my disputes with you first, https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Bushranger-20250116213500-Legend_of_14-20250116190800. But, also now that I'm trying to resolve concerns as I become aware of them with another user outside of ANI, I should also be blocked for that. Don't use ANI, use the talk page for all issues first, but also don't keep posting on the talk page. Can you please clearly state the process I should go through to resolve disputes? ] (]) 21:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I'm not suggesting you should be blocked, I'm saying that if you continue with this petty behaviour, someone will inevitably block you. Learn from this experience and stop trying to pick fights with people.-- ] - ] 21:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I'm not trying to start fights with others though. I've never directly commented on another's character. I've tried to focus on the content of the articles or discussion pages comments, not why such actions were done or the character of the person doing them, and on the relevant policies. What are you saying I should do differently? ] (]) 22:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::You do realize you were the one who instigated this ANI case, correct? You're actually lodging a formal complaint about a different editors behavior. It's a little late to suggest you're simply an innocent bystander. ]&thinsp;] 22:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::I'm not saying I'm a bystander. I'm not the one who made uncivil comments on ], which is what started this "fight". ] (]) 22:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have no opinion on this dispute, but just in case you're unaware, the behavior of anyone participating in these threads, whether as someone who's reporting, being reported, or even just commenting, may be scrutinized for wrongdoing. See ]. ] (]) 17:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'll give the answer here I gave on ], I removed uncited claims about immigration status. To add additional information beyond what I said there, Canada's immigration system has somewhat recent come under fire for being used to suppress wage growth https://www.newcanadianmedia.ca/temporary-immigration-programs-are-pushing-down-wage-growth-in-canada-economists-say/, so I removed the uncited content because for that reason it could be considered contentious. ] (]) 17:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think it is relevant to include an instance on ] where the user says they're "suspicious of this user's true intentions", without linking to any edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Earl_Andrew#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116180500-Tarlby-20250116174800 This happened after I initiated the ANI. ] (]) 18:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], what sort of resolution are you seeking here? Because so far, while some editors acknowledge that Earl Andrew could have been more civil, no one has agreed with you that these are personal attacks. Are you looking for validation, an apology, a chance to vent, or some kind of sanction because the latter won't be happening based on the response here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Another user has agreed that these could be personal attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Corvette_ZR1-20250116174800-Legend_of_14-20250116173700. I was hoping for a retraction of all the unsubstantiated claims about me acting in bad faith and comments that the user is suspicious of my intentions and an interaction ban with me, and a restriction against making comments about my character anywhere on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 19:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That is not going to happen. is not ''remotely'' a personal attack. could be more ] but is ''also'' not a personal attack. And again, you '''must''' attempt to resolve issues '''before''' coming to ANI, which you by your own admission chose not to do. Strongly suggest this be closed as there is nothing to do here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Chronic refusal to comply re edit summaries/copious, tendentious editing ==
	Her habits have not changed. She continues to edit Gun Control articles exclusively, less than 0.5% of her edits are in other areas of Misplaced Pages. She continues to be combative, etc., often playing the victim. (For example, she complains that I "follow her around" failing to mention that she has invited me to the discussions involved, and of the many gun Control articles she edits, we share only TWO)
			Despite years of requests by numerous editors to leave edit summaries, ] makes another apology, another promise, leaves cursory remarks for a minority of their edits for a short while, then back to highly prolific editing with no explanations. (Raised repeatedly in ] (most recently ]), (blanked, apparently in a botched archiving attempt) and ].)
	A few more links:
	Editors trying to reach out to her:
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lightbreather&diff=prev&oldid=581795845#Friendly_suggestion
			This would be problematic if the edits were not contentious but a high proportion are. Currently they are . (See again the iterations of their talk pages referred to above, ] and ], re OR, inaccurate citation, excessively lengthy quotes, overwhelming articles with peripheral or off-topic material, neutrality concerns, primary and self-published sources, ENGVAR, MOS, slow warring, blanking of maintenance tags, editorialising, anachronism.)
	Lightbreather attempting to get me blocked for the second time:
	https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive234#User:Sue_Rangell_reported_by_User:Lightbreather_.28Result:_No_violation.29
			] but closed down after , later when there was no compliance.
	Here she is in ARBCOM
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control/Evidence&diff=prev&oldid=593912981
			The abundance and extent of edits and the almost total omission of explanation makes it impossible to assess the editor's copious work. If the much-repeated excuse of absent-mindedness is to be taken seriously, it indicates instead a significant and chronic competence issue. They either have no ability or no intention to engage meaningfully to explain their editing. ] (]) 22:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Here she is wasting people's time with procedure yet again:
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Sue_Rangell&diff=prev&oldid=593942825
			:I haven't looked into this in detail but I warned K1ngstowngalway1 about edit summaries on 25 November 2024, got a promise to improve, and note that they are still only using edit summaries occasionally and omitting them for substantial edits, eg {{Diff|Jacobitism|prev|1269555399}},{{Diff|Jacobitism|prev|1269553173}},{{Diff|William Davies (priest)|1268928050}}, to pick just three recent ones. ] <small>(])</small> 11:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	In ANI yet again:
			::For more regarding problematic editing at Jacobitism, see ]. ] (]) 20:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Lightbreather_mass_depopulating_cat
			== Block request: IP user edit-warring and not discussing edits. ==
	Again on ARBCOM
			{{atop
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control/Workshop&diff=prev&oldid=593830704#Gaijin42_topic-banned_2
			| result = IP warned against edit warring. ] (]/]) 02:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
	Wasting everyone's time at ]
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Third_opinion&oldid=593533298#Active_disagreements
			IP user ] is engaging in edit-warring on ] regarding the vehicle being either "operational" or "under-development." Another user started a discussion on the talk page and I participated in it and referenced the discussion when reverting the IP user's edit. The IP user has since reverted the edit again and not participated in the discussion. I can't contact this user further as they are not on an account and do not want to continue an edit-war. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	'''I have edited Misplaced Pages in peace for many years now''', and I have never had a problem like this with ANY editor. My behavior is to back away when there are problems, I can provide many examples of this, even with Lightbreather, if anyone wishes to see them. This Lightbreather account has been actively editing for less than <b><s>a year</s> six months</b>, and has already been to ANI more times than can easily be counted, made rounds of ARBCOM, and battled scores of editors on every Gun Control related article that one may think of. Remember, I have asked her extremely politely a number of times to put Misplaced Pages ahead of her politics, but I doubt if that is ever going to happen now. There is no doubt in my mind that if something isn't done, you will see Lightbreather here in ANI again and again. --<span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#ff55ff 0em 0em 0.8em,#55ffff -0.8em -0.8em 0.9em,#ffff55 0.7em 0.7em 0.8em;color:#ffffff">] <span style="font-size: 16px;">]]</span></span> 05:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{collapsebottom}}		{{abot}}
			== User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is being highly disruptive (battleground, attacks, edit war) ==
			{{atop
			| result = Blocked. SPI still open. ] (]/]) 02:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)<br><br>To noone's surprise, PopPunkFanBoi69 was indeed a sock. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			{{userlinks|PopPunkFanBoi69}}
			I'm not sure that User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is ]. Their edit history consists of a lot of unsourced content additions/changes, such as ], ]. They have made talk page posts that are personal attacks or ] style, such as ] (battleground), ] (attack).
	'''COUNTER response'''
	I'd first like to say that I find Sue's rhetoric uncivil in its choice of words like: "waste," "harassment," " frivolous," "blows wide open," "huge" reverts, "wiki-saavy," "ballistic," and "bullying." She also ''misrepresents'' facts, including:
	{{collapsetop|Balance of LB's response}}
	{{multiCol}}
	*The ] '''(AWB 1994)''' page was stable prior to my arrival?
	*There was an RfC consensus about the word "cosmetic" in that article prior to my arrival?
	*I have "a vast knowledge of Misplaced Pages"? But repeatedly claim that I'm new?
	*I recruited editors and admins to my "cause"?
	{{colBreak}}
	*That SaltyBoatr was my "partner"?
	*That I edit gun-control articles exclusively?
	*That I tried to get her (Sue) blocked - again?
	*Wasting editors' time?
	{{endMultiCol}}
			Despite being warned by ] (]) for edit warring on ']', they continue to restore their edits without consensus (]).
	'''''Re: the AWB 1994 issues from four months ago:''''' I agree with Sue that if you read nothing else re: this issue, do read the ANI ownership discussion from the time, paying particular attention to what ''I'' wrote, what ''she'' wrote - ''and the outcome''. Of the four editors whom I suspected of ownership issues, Sue was the only one who pushed for me to be banned. One supported the idea (though ] and I now have a collegial relationship that I truly appreciate), one opposed the idea, and one recommended mentorship. I had been searching for a mentor (that was part of my thought when I asked for help with the RfC), and found one about this time.
			One final thing that made me proceed to making this AN/I report: check out ] on User:PopPunkFanBoi69's talk page, here's a quote from that: {{tq|This is why I fucking hate editing Misplaced Pages because multiple accounts that have been blocked & having to create a new account!}} This suggests to me that this is a sockpuppet account, although I don't know about this user and their previous accounts.
	*When I arrived at AWB 1994 on 9 AUG 2013 to remove the word "cosmetic" ''from one section'', the article's material was duplicated among at least two other articles.
	*Prior to my "arrival," the AWB ''section'' of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act had just been redirected/moved to the AWB 1994 article. (As I noted in the ANI ownership article, MediaWiki emails of 8 and 9 AUG brought the activity to my attention.)
	*As one might expect, the history pages of gun-politics related articles show that they are regularly and hotly debated. I never found a consensus about the word "cosmetic" - which is why I started the RfC. And, at any rate, the ] agreed mid-November that use of the word is due at least some weight, as seen in the beginning of this discussion.
	*My knowledge of Misplaced Pages policy and jargon was miniscule in August 2013. By October, because of my ongoing debate with Sue and about a dozen pro-gun editors, it had grown considerably. It is even better now. Don't most editors learn incrementally? And shouldn't we learn faster editing more-controversial pages rather than less-controversial ones? As for claims of being "new," I did it more then - because I was! I still claim it about specific WP tasks with which I've little or no experience.
	*As for recruiting to my cause: I was looking for someone to cool down the situation on the AWB 1994 page. All of my appeals were worded the same as the one to Sue. (I'd been actively editing about one week then and did not yet have a mentor.)
	*SaltyBoatr was not my "partner." It was nice for a time to have one other not pro-gun editor on the article - though he obviously had a rocky past with at least a couple of those guys, which caused problems for other editors ''and'' me. (A bunch of good and BRD edits were rolled back after his disruption.)
			Either way, I see numerous policy violations here, such as civility, edit warring and potential violation of the multiple accounts policy. —&nbsp;] ] 02:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You haven’t looked at the Misplaced Pages articles ] & ] for sources! So you don’t see the sources then stay quiet! Look at the ] article also for sources! ] (]) 02:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''''Re: more recent (2014) issues:'''''
			:You may not know me but come to my talk page if you wanna know about me & my previous accounts like I understand you’re concerned for me & I’m inviting you to my talk page so you can get the full story! ] (]) 02:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I edit a lot of gun and gun-politics related articles; I ''also'' edit other articles.
	*Yes, I reported Sue for 3RR My mistake was in not understanding how to count a revert ''as'' a revert ''for 3RR purposes''. She actually claims to have a personal 1RR rule, which explains in part her single edits that cover lots of reversions, often with misleading edit summaries.
	*Since 3O is between two people, I disagree that it was a waste of everyone's time. I think the push by the editor in question (not Sue) to keep putting Nazi material into gun-politics related articles when behaviors related to such material are before ArbCom right now IS a waste of time.
			:I would have reported the problem here, but I got the sense I had seen this behavior before. After confirming my suspicion, I started a casepage at ]. What with socking, a personal attack, and a 3RR violation, this person is not likely to retain their editing ability. ] (]) 02:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Re: her other complaints, I don't understand what the ArbCom links are supposed to show. I did NOT follow up on the RFC/U I started because my mentor was going to talk with Sue. (That did not go well. ) ]'s ANI against me was withdrawn ''at my behest, and without a boomerang''. It was a misunderstanding.
			::I’m not a sockpuppet I’m just a very smart guy who knows a lot about music & Rock genres! Please by all means call me nasty names but I reported you! ] (]) 02:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== EdsonCordeirodeSouza - Disruptive editing and edit warring ==
	'''''Nowhere''''' does Sue mention that she took me to ANI for deleting some of her comments from a talk page (they had accused me of willfully vandalizing pages) and that the admin told her it could boomerang on her (Sue). ''Nor'' that she until very recently followed me from page to page shouting that I was an SPA, which an admin warned her to stop doing. ''Nor'' that she disrupted the ] article and related articles, insisting that this LIVING scholar is an activist and advocate.
			{{atop
	If any admin has any question, please ask and I will drop what I'm doing to reply. --] (]) 20:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)		| result = Blocked for 31 hours for edit warring. ] (]/]) 03:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
	{{collapsebottom}}
	:], thanks for the the kind words. But just correcting/ clarifying, even then I did not support getting you banned or blocked. I ''was'' leaning on you to dial back on aggressive editing. Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 21:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::OK, North. Remember: ] ;-) ] (]) 01:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*Even if Sue wanted to withdraw the AfD, she couldn't. The consensus is very clearly in the "delete" ballpark. This ANI thread is petty in the extreme, and that's putting it lightly. ] ] 15:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Luke, you might want to (re) read about ] Also, per ]: "Consensus is not based on a tally of votes, but on reasonable, logical, policy-based arguments." ] (]) 22:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::'''You''' might want to re-read it. "The AfD nominator can withdraw the nomination and close a discussion as Speedy Keep #1, '''if all other viewpoints expressed were for "keep"''', and doing so does not short-circuit an ongoing discussion." Sue could change her !vote, but she could not unilaterally end a discussion that others were involved in. ] (]) 22:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*Gaijin is 100% correct (and beat me to saying that). Quite how the AfD was closed as no consensus, I don't know, but I really don't care enough to file a DRV. ] ] 22:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Gaijin (and Luke), the point you're quoting is a way for the NOMINATOR to withdraw and close it THEMSELVES (if there have been no delete votes) using Speedy Keep #1. They can also withdraw their nomination - even if there are delete votes - and ask an admin to close the discussion. READ Withdrawing a nomination (link given before) directly above How to close an AFD discussion (link also given before). ] (]) 23:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{od}} once again, YOU need to read the section YOU linked. " Withdrawing a nomination can save other editors' time by cutting short the discussion, '''if no-one else has supported the deletion proposal'''." You are wasting everyone's time and causing drama. This never should have been brought to ANI to begin with, what did you want, admins to force her to change her opinion or else they ban her?] (]) 00:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	]: First, thank you for clarifying. I have made a few edits to "Withdrawing a nomination" and WP:CLOSEAFD based on your replies to me.
	As for the second part of your last reply to me - about "wasting everyone's time" and wanting "admins to force to change her opinion" - what I wanted was to get a dispute resolution (keep or delete article), based on this:
	* 26 JAN 2014 - Sue nominated the article for deletion for reasons WP:PUSH, "creates a content fork," and "fails notability requirements as well, since the content is already going to be merged into a larger article." Later the same day, she clarified "content fork" with WP:REDUNDANTFORK.
	* 1 FEB 2014 - Admin Drmies said she thought the article was a valid content fork ... ''and on 2 FEB 2014 Sue agreed''.
	* 7 FEB 2014 (Twelve (12) days after she opened the nomination) - And here's where it seemed unabashedly disruptive - Sue called for the discussion to be closed and the article deleted (based on votes), and she called the article WP:OR (''in an edit with the summary "POV fork"'' ).
	To reiterate, I was trying to get decisions from an ''uninvolved'' editor (you were involved in the discussion, yes?) and/or admin about the article ''and'' about Sue's behavior.
	--] (]) 17:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I agree with your tweaks to the guideline, it doesn't change the meaning but does make the restriction more clear. None of the items you mention were issues for ANI. The AFD would be (and was) closed when an admin got to it. There is ] and the AFD queue appears to be significantly backlogged currently. (Threads like this one take up admin time, which makes that backlog take even longer!) You may disagree with or dislike sue's comments, but she is entitled to her opinion and predictions and her expressing those opinions is not a violation of any policy that would require admin action. Sue called for the discussion to be closed and expressed an opinion about the way that close should go. You did the exact same thing here. This section should probably be archived as the core dispute is resolved. It does not appear that my proposal below is gaining any traction except for TParis, so it is likely to die soon as well. Lets all move on. But please, if you are going to bring people up for violating policy, maybe make sure you have read it carefully. ] (]) 17:42, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::To be clear, Gaijin, the issue I brought up here (top of discussion) was ], which says:
	::::"AfDs are a place for rational discussion of whether an article is able to meet Misplaced Pages's article guidelines and policies. Reasonable editors will often disagree, but valid arguments will be given more weight than unsupported statements. When an editor offers arguments or evidence that do not explain how the article meets/violates policy, they may only need a reminder to engage in constructive, on-topic discussion. But a pattern of ], ], and ignoring content guidelines may become disruptive. If a pattern of disruptive behavior persists after efforts are made to correct the situation through dialogue, please consider a ] process outside the current AfD."
	:::It was you and Luke who brought up CLOSEAFD. ] (]) 18:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I am also waiting to see if Sue will agree to my counter proposal below. She said, "it would be grossly unfair for me to have to leave articles while remains," but I looked at her contributions from October 2012 through August 2013 and I see virtually no evidence of her having an interest in gun-related articles prior to my asking for her help about 15 AUG 2013. There were no contributions from her account from Oct. 2011 to Oct. 2012. After that is was primarily - thousands - of reverted edits and AfDs. That's fine; I know there is a need for that kind of administrative work on Misplaced Pages, but the point is, she showed no interest in gun-related articles until I asked for her help. (You and she will remember that I asked for help because I was one pro-control editor against at least 10 pro-gun editors. Though I did not know the terms at the time, I felt tag-teamed (I'm not saying I was - that's just how it felt) and probably was just suffering a ] experience.) ] (]) 18:42, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*Lightbreather, drop it. Stop attempting to Wikilawyer your way out of the hole you dug, particularly when what you're saying categorically does ''not'' support the existence of this ANI, or your demand for the AfD to be closed; not even slightly. The ''only'' constructive thing I've seen from you so far is your amendments/clarifications to the AfD guidelines, which I also agree with. ] ] 21:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	===Propose IBan===
	These two cannot get along, and have been here against each other multiple times. I propose a mutual ]. The caveat to that is that this is probably effectively a topic ban on guns/gun control for one/both of them as the majority of LB's edits are only to gun control topics, and the topic as a whole is full of contentinos discussion/RFCs that would have them !voteing or commenting on the same threads and proposals, which is generally viewed as an iban violation.
	*'''support as nom''' ] (]) 22:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' I think Sue and I would get along fine if she would just quit following me around and "fixing" my edits. I don't have super-powers and I edit in good faith. Other editors are capable of BRDing with me and don't need Sue's help. (I also resent a little having an editor who is currently before ArbCom, and who only a few days ago brought me to ANI hastily, dismissively collapsing everything we wrote.) ] (]) 01:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::In fact, I just went and read about ], and since editor "X" (Sue) usually replies uncivilly to editor "Y" (me, Lightbreather), and accuses "Y" of things (vandalism, SPA, PUSH, etc) on numerous pages, and generally undoes Y's edits first and in ''large, single edits that undo others' work'' - I would support an IBAN of X/her against Y/me. ] (]) 01:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I '''initiated''' the arbcom, so its not like I was hauled in front of the magistrate. ] (]) 02:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Nonetheless, although I respect your right to share your opinion, I'd have preferred the perspective of some other editors and admins first. ] (]) 03:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' - Mostly because I am not the only editor she tangles with (See above). Also I am not the one wasting everyone's time here. I've just been pulled into ANI and accused of being disruptive because I am of the opinion that the article (]) should be deleted, or merged. I've learned not to be annoyed by these things when it comes to Lightbreather. My complaint is how these things waste so much everybody's valuable time. Our interractions are ]. We don't use profanity or bait each other or anything like that. Our conversations are polite enough. We simply disagree. We aren't even on opposite sides of the gun issue. Because of this, I think it would be more helpful if a few editors suggested voluntary behaviors first. '''I would, as an example, agree to both of us mutually and voluntarily topic banning ourselves from gun related pages.''' I am happy to do that, as it would be grossly unfair for me to have to leave those articles while she remains. There is plenty of Misplaced Pages for everyone. An IBAN will not solve the core problem here. Lightbreather will return to ANI again, and again, and again because I am not the only editor she tangles with. I think I've demonstrated that. --<span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#ff55ff 0em 0em 0.8em,#55ffff -0.8em -0.8em 0.9em,#ffff55 0.7em 0.7em 0.8em;color:#ffffff">] <span style="font-size: 16px;">]]</span></span> 04:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I disagree with some of what you've written, Sue, but rather than get into that, '''''here's a counter proposal'''''. I will voluntarily avoid articles that fall under the WikiProjects you belong to, which appear to be: Computer Security, Sociology, Spam, and Universities, if you will voluntarily avoid articles under WikiProjects that I belong to, which are: Countering Systemic Bias, Firearms, Journalism, Law, and Politics. <ins>CSB,</ins> Law, and Politics are pretty broad categories, so to be more fair, let's say those articles under <ins>CSB,<ins> Law, and/or Politics that also overlap with Firearms and/or Journalism. If one of us accidentally edits on another's turf, the other will AGF and give a friendly warning. ] (]) 17:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' For these two opposing an interaction ban, they sure do resent each other quite a bit. I've spoken to both, I think, and I have a feeling this is the only way to stop the disruption. They've both been asked to stop and haven't.--v/r - ]] 05:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' I've seen and interacted much with both and think that they are both fundamentally good people and editors. (not perfect, but who is) They are both are on the same "side" on gun control topics, so that is not an underlying dispute. I think that a full interaction ban would result in one or the other getting excluded from those articles. Could you both agree to just not talk about each other? And if any actions "need" to be taken against the other party, leave that to others to decide and do? Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 17:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Thanks, North. I think we posted on top of each other. See my reply to Gaijin above that begins, "I am also waiting to see...." ] (]) 18:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' Based on the amount of drama between these two on AN/I I support a IBAN and a topic ban. ] (]) 21:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	== ] overriding consensus on supposed BLP issue ==
	I am concerned that Mark Miller has of another editor (that would be me) on a Talk page, citing that the previous text violates ] and saying that "There is actually no proof" to support the previous text. Miller was carefully told that there was proof to support the accusation and that this therefore was not a BLP violation, not only , but also minutes later , Ken Arromdee. In light of two opposes to his modifying the original text, and no supports other than his own, Mark Miller went ahead and overruled the consensus forming at the page and modified the text anyway. When Mark Miller was warned about this on his Talk page, he rather than discussing it. He also about whether evidence (or "proof", as he believes is a semantic differentiator) had been provided in the previous text. I believe that Mark Miller should be counseled about modifying other editors' Talk page commentary, that it is both non-customary and impolite. - ] (]) 04:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:One <strike>SPI</strike>single purpose account, and one long term editor, do not a consensus make. I do not assert that Mark Miller is correct here; this is an interesting and complex problem. However, ''there is no consensus as we currently define it'' that he is wrong. You are welcome to seek a discussion and consensus on Jimbo's talk page or here. For the time being, there is none. ] (]) 05:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::One "SPI"? There was no sockpuppet investigation involved in the story, George. Does SPI stand for something else that I'm not aware of? Regardless, Mark Miller now says "I won't edit war over any editor that should decide to revert", so I have simply reverted him back to my originally-intended prose. - ] (]) 05:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I Agree with GWH. Jimbo's talk page is one of the most highly watched pages. When you make accusations about Jimbo based on very little but your own opinion, and you attribute them to intentional malevolence, you can expect to draw attention and perhaps have your posts edited. Jimbo is a living person, this is one of the top 10 websites in the world, and you're slandering that person on it. Now, Jimbo's a big boy and I think Mark Miller should've left the comments alone, but you can't seriously expect us to protect you from him when he's completely justified in what he is doing. Sorry, but no. Either toughen up or don't start the drama.--v/r - ]] 05:20, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::And GWH meant "SPA".--v/r - ]] 05:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::I err brain d'oh yes. I did. No sockpuppetry investigation needed, merely observing single purpose of the account. My apologies for the unintended and unwarranted suggestion/implication. I have struck the goof and clarified above. ] (]) 05:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::In my opinion, ] should voluntarily put it back the way ] edited it. If policy-based arguments are unconvincing, it should be done out of basic human decency. Stay classy, checker. --] (]) 05:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::Excellent advice, Guy Macon. I have voluntarily restored Miller's questionable modification, even after he said he would not edit war "any editor" who reverted him. I don't know why (above) I am being called a "single purpose account". My contributions to Misplaced Pages over the past year have been . I would appreciate if that epithet were withdrawn. - ] (]) 05:37, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::I concur. Having a strong interest in either Keeping Misplaced Pages Honest or Throwing Around Wild Accusations (take your pick which way you want to describe it) is not the same as being a SPA. That "stay classy" advice I just gave? It applies to calling someone an SPA too. In the name of common decency we should reserve such labels for clear-cut cases. ] should voluntarily retract that statement. --] (]) 06:02, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	How much competence can an editor have if they think that it would be worthwhile complaining at ANI about someone reverting parts of their baseless comment that includes "Caught in a lie". Or, is Ctc competent but so engaged in battle that they imagine recruits would be available to right-great-wrongs on Jimbo's talk? Unfortunately the open model of editing means that a lot more nonsense has to be tolerated before action will be taken, but if there is much more unsubstantiated baiting perhaps action will be soon. ] (]) 07:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:I am amused by your "baseless comment" and "unsubstantiated" phrasing. It occurs to me that some people on Misplaced Pages are incapable of reading diffs and connecting dots, even when they're conveniently numbered "1", "2", "3". I could go over the very clearly-based and substantial evidence that the subject was caught in a lie, but what would be the point? Loyal-to-the-Sole-Founder Wikipedians would just deny the evidence all over again. They show no shortage of their ability to do that. - ] (]) 11:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Get a room, you two. --] (]) 12:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::And now, Guy, you need to retract something. Johnuniq's point is valid. "Caught in a lie" is nothing but hot air meant to provoke. It's not an honest question asked by someone interested in the answer. Perhaps we'll find out from Wikipediocrareview who this super checker really is. I respect a bunch of our gadflies, by the way. ] (]) 04:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Ahh—that's exactly what I meant to say. For any onlookers, if you find someone "caught in a lie", the way to handle it is to ask a question. You can always add a suggestion that there seems to be a conflict between the events and what someone said, but saying "I caught you in a lie" will never get a good result unless you are not interested in an explanation and merely want to spread muck to attack the person. I would suggest trying another website for the latter because there are quite a lot of intelligent people here who are not impressed by huffing and puffing. ] (]) 10:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	== Yambaram must stop with his bad behaviour ==
	Hi. I have some ongoing dispute with {{u|Yambaram}} and he keeps issuing personal attacks in his answer, directed at my language skills. It doesn't look like he will stop so that's why I am coming here, so that he can finally adhere to both good standard and our policies like ] and ]. This is respectless and just leads to a bad atmoshpere. Yesterday, he wrote this totally unnecessary point in his : ''"4- "you doesn't want too se ... I am interesting of knowing" is terribly poor English, please improve your grammar before making other similar confusing entries on this encyclopedia, as this is just one of many examples. Thanks"''. I to him what I think about this and hoped he would stop. Unfortunately, he today again: ''"Anyway, you shouldn't be telling editors anything about grammatical edits they make, as your understanding of it appears to be substandard IRISZOOM: "it just that you doesn't want too se what happened to Arabs""''. Note that his claim about "grammatical edits" is not true as I specifically talked about keeping a word, not about someones grammatical skills, because I thought this would be better to show the distinction between one country's view and the world's view (which I later to him). Also notice the claim that I am "paranoid".
	I am not sure if this is personal, because we have had disputes before, such as two months ago when he restored every comment I had deleted in my talk and issued threats about that I can be blocked for that. When I explained to him that this was allowed, instead of apologizing, he "''Well, to be honest I actually didn't know of that, so please do as you wish now. The fact that you choose to consistently delete posts from your talk page instead of archiving them which is Misplaced Pages policy's "preferred" option means a lot, as there must be a reason behind it. What are you hiding? You have exposed your POV-pushing editing style everywhere, and other editors have told you about it already. Anyway, I can only guess how long this comment will stay before it gets removed too"''. I took this to ] (ANI) and I was advised to ignore him. In his user talk page, he ''"Please stop making so much unnecessary noise, Misplaced Pages admins have much more important stuff to go over than your imaginary "intimidation" and "harassment" made by other users"''. It just seems that if you have a dispute with him, he will use personal attacks as a weapon. Either way, his bad behaviour must stop.
	This ] could be of intererest. --] (]) 10:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Right, there's obviously a civility problem there and a failure of ]. Just taking the first example there about the "you doesn't want too se what happened to Arabs" thing. Yes, it's poor English but it's poor English ''on a talk page''. ] could probably do with calming down on that front. It's important that spelling and grammar is enforced in ''articles'' but on talk pages, arguing about each other's spelling and minor layout changes and so on is a complete waste of time and energy. Both of you need to apply the ] and try to deal with the substantive differences rather than just pick holes in minor edits. —] (]) 18:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	===Response to IRISZOOM, and an official request for action from administrator===
	I’m not surprised that all editors have chosen to ignore this post. Ironically, as you selectively picked quotes of me from various disputes we’ve had in the past, you proved what I said to be true. You have to understand that there are millions of heated discussion on Misplaced Pages talk pages, and if every editor were to complaint about any tiny issue as easily as you do, this WP:ANI noticeboard would have thousands of new posts every hour.
	So many of the edits IRISZOOM has made do not comply with Misplaced Pages’s guidelines. Mistake made by her are commonly seen, and I was just able to find a few in a matter of a few minutes. IRISZOOM changed a link from "List of Israeli Arab Christians" to "Arab Muslims”, , another mistake is where she wrote “and between and between”, or where she deleted factual content, summarizing the reason with a link to a website that doesn't support the the removal of the content. It's important to note that IRISZOOM did not fix any of these later.
	Considering the fact that IRISZOOM is not fighting with everyone as often as she has done with past false accusations that were directed at me, one has to ask himself this why this is happening: Is it a coincidence that I am an Israeli Jew while she's a person who has links to some of the most anti-Israel websites in their user page? IRISZOOM’s twisting name is meant to attract readers to enter her page and click on those anti-Israel links, as evidenced by the thousands of daily minor edits she makes just for the purpose of flooding Misplaced Pages with her user name for people to click on. She also did that in this very strategic article for example - her edits are anti-Israel, which is sad but is as itself fine, however here comes the serious problem: (taken from IRISZOOM's own user page. she moved it to the bottom recently)
	'''Websites you should visit'''
	* - ]
	* - ]
	* - ]
	* - ]
	This consists of different violations, including ], which prohibits "Advertising or promotion of an individual, business, organization, group, or viewpoint unrelated to Misplaced Pages (such as commercial sites or referral links), and ], which states: "user pages...content hosted in Misplaced Pages is not for: Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise" - and this is exactly what IRISZOOM is doing by spreading her name and attracting reader to click on here user page so they can see these links. Furthermore, as you can see, she literally asks that viewers visit them ("Websites you should visit"). Admins, IRISZOOM must be asked to peacefully remove these links, and if not, you should remove them yourselves.
	Thanks you, -] (]) 17:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Um, 3 of those terrible sites are written by highly informed American Jews, two with important scholarship to their credit, who happen to disagree with Israel's occupation of another country. They are not 'anti-Israel'. They are again an illegal occupation of foreign territory, which is a respectable position within international law. Though not RS, they are generally highly tuned in to events that are underreported, and therefore assist readers otherwise addicted to mainstream tailored news to see the underside of contemporary issues. Citing them on a user page does not constitute advocacy for what is written there. I don't think anything here is actionable, however, other than that Yambaram should be reminded that disputes should not be personalized. If IRISZOOM feels that these personal attacks are unacceptable, then simply linking all recent examples with diffs, without comment, at the WP:NPA page would be the best way to clarify the issue. Nearly all of the edits I see from IRISZOOM look like close technical corrections on sloppily written pages, while Yamabaram . . .] (]) 18:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:: First of all, regarding that template, this was a result of me changing from "Muslims Arabs" to "Arab Muslims", then I also wanted to change from "Christian Arabs" from "Arab Christians" and I copied "Arab Muslims", then forgot to change the rest too (the last word, "Christians"). I don't see what I would earn on making this on purpose. I've corrected this now. --] (]) 18:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:: Lets take a look at his second example. Some of the changes I made:
	::*Jewish communities currently established in the West Bank and in the Golan Heights, between 1967 and 2006 in the Gaza Strip and between 1967 and 1981 in the Sinai Peninsula
	::*Jewish communities currently established in the West Bank and in the Golan Heights, between 1967 and 2006 in the Gaza Strip and between 1967 and until 1982 in the Sinai Peninsula
	::*Jewish communities currently established in the West Bank and in the Golan Heights, between 1967 and 2006 in the Gaza Strip and between 1967 and between 1967 and 1982 in the Sinai Peninsula
	:: One of the changes was that I changed to 1982 because settlements such as ] where evacuated then, which I said in the edit summary. The last change was because I wrote that I was "Restoring from when too...". I didn't see "and between 1967" was already there. So you are correct that this is a mistake. I shouldn't added those extra words when there was already those in place. But this doesn't prove something more than I made a mistake. I will correct this now.
	:: Regarding the article about Jordan, I did remove the allegations as they were unfounded, as there is a misunderstanding about Jordan's nationality law. It doesn't "explicitly bars Jews". The law says "(2)Any person who, not being Jewish, possessed Palestinian nationality before 15 May 1948 and was a regular resident in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan between 20 December 1949 and 16 February 1954" under "The following shall be deemed to be Jordanian nationals:". Note that this was not presented as an opinion but as a fact ("Jordan has been accused of practicing apartheid because of the Kingdom's 1954 law prohibiting Jews from living in Jordan") made by a columnist. I was reverted and contrary to your claim, I made other changes. I to "allegedly prohibiting Jews from living in Jordan". After that, I what the U.S. State Department says about that.
	:: Regarding my user page. Admins can decide if it's wrong or not. I have directed accusations at you with proof, like yesterday when you made some really troubling POV pushing, where you gave fringe views the same significance as mainstream views. In the end, you realized what you were doing and stopped. And let us don't forget that you direct accusations too, very often in fact.
	:: Yambaram, I really don't know to say to the rest of your text. You called me "paranoid" today. I don't know what that you are writing is then. '''This is the second time you make allegations of antisemitism.''' Didn't you learn something from the case you had with Nishidani? I don't care that you are an Israeli Jew, it makes no difference for me what your background have. Three of the websites I link to are written by Jews, maybe the last one too.
	:: The part about my username and my many edits are just... too much. I am sorry but I can't see anyone who agree with this. This is really laughful. Do you think I am spending several hours per day (often more) just to "spread my name and gets the links to anti-Israeli websites"? Most of the time I am spending is just to correct links, formatting etc. I do think my many edits are improvements. But maybe I understand your claim, because you can't find any hate in my edits, or incorrect edits with of course some usual exceptions as shown here because everyone makes mistakes or is wrong sometimes, you now point to the "anti-Israel websites" (which of course is a bad term). This is conspiracy thinking at the best. I took my username, as explained at my user page, from a game engine. I also have one email with that name. Is that also for "spreading my name and getting clicks" etc. or could it be that I just want to have that name because I like it? I am really confused by your remarks.
	:: You know I can bring up your awful edits, like spreading propaganda about Muslims' birth rate in France, you trying to make Palestinians look like interlopers who wasn't ethnic cleansed but, at least many of them, "returned to their home countries". But I won't do it as I don't see the relevance of that. This is about your incivilty, not anything else. --] (]) 19:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Regarding the many small edits and mistakes: on Misplaced Pages, editors make mistakes. That's because editors are human beings and humans are fallible. If there's ''routine'' incompetence ''and'' you try in good faith to alert them to the issues in a civil way ''and'' they pay no attention, ''then'' we might want to consider a block. I'm not seeing that condition being met yet.
	:As for the links on the user page: I'd suggest the simple answer to that is for ] to remove them. If they are unwilling to, ]—or anyone similarly concerned—has the option to take the user page to ] and seek wider consensus on deletion of the page itself. But the idea that there's some grand propaganda war going on here because IRISZOOM has an all-caps username and makes a lot of edits to effectively spam the history page so as to seduce people ''reading the history page'' into clicking on their user page so that they can then get pro-Palestinian propaganda in the form of links to four websites... sorry, that's silly.
	:Beyond telling the both of you to stop bickering and to implore you to try and be civil to one another, I'm not exactly sure what admin action is required here. —] (]) 18:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:: I have explained where my user name comes from but it looks like Yambaram didn't see that. Otherwise he would not have thought I am a woman ("her"), as "Iris" makes it sound (pretty common mistake in my email conversations). So I advice him to read one time more and use common sense before drawing up conspiracy theories.
	:: I have removed that from my user page now. I just want to add that those websites have only been there for . I had an empty user page for several years before that. I have done much copyediting for much longer than that. So the silly claim makes even less sense. --] (]) 19:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::: I Just read all the responses. Nishidani you're intellectual enough to know that these four websites/people aren't just "against illegal occupation of foreign territory" - each one of them represents either strong radical-leftist, anti-Israel, or extreme liberal views. This is unacceptable, just like I would never put a link to anti-Islam website on my user page and write '''"Website you should visit"''', even if I really felt the need to advance a point.
	:::Tom Morris, thanks for your helpful reply and advice. With all due respect, I think that what you called "silly" is actually the truth. You surely agree with me that whatever a Misplaced Pages user puts on their user page is what they want visitors to see. It's understandable, and it's what IRISZOOM did, but in his/her case, it's against Misplaced Pages's rules. But let's not get into this. Anyway, just before I was going to go to ], IRISZOOM wisely removed these websites. A smart move, I guess.
	:::IRISZOOM, as I'm writing this you keep changing the content of your response and it's really confusing and misleading as it is hard to follow. I'll respond briefly. You can't see anyone who agrees with me? You have been reverted dozens of times and other editors told you similar things, so this statement is factually wrong. Also, from 2009 until late-2013 you were barely active and made as little as about 400 edits on English Misplaced Pages, so saying that your user page was empty for a few years is again a half-truth. Conspiracy theories? Propaganda about Muslims and Palestinians? Unlike (this is just one example of many), I always cite any sentence I add whenever it could be disputed. And did you just say that I made antisemitic allegations against you?! This is an absolute lie and you should be sanctioned per ]. -] (]) 20:42, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::: I have already explained the article about the situation in Jordan. The claim was not true and presented as a fact. I was reverted and then I kept it but clarified and added a source about the situation. None of your examples show anything unusual, as others have explained to you here. And please to don't try to misinform readers. You have made many unwarranted changes such as yesterday in the article about Israelis and the fact that you may cite someone, doesn't mean that it's acceptable, like you for example did in some edits about Palestinians.
	:::: There will always be disputes about content. But no one has agreed with the silly claim about why I am editing. You write ''"With all due respect, I think that what you called "silly" is actually the truth. You surely agree with me that whatever a Misplaced Pages user puts on their user page is what they want visitors to see"''. You are missing the point. It was not about which pages I had in my user page itself but your claim I wanted to promote it by making many edits. And please read again what I wrote. I said my user page, with a link to it, was empty for several years. Or actually, it said "IRIZOOM". I am not talking about the edits. So your claim about why I am making so many edits makes even more less sense. It's bad that you made this claim from the beginning and it's worse than you keep pushing this idea. You are now trying to leave this by saying "But let's not get into this". No, if you make a serious accusation, and in the very same time as you write this, keeps pushing the same claim about why I am editing, expect me to want you to retract it.
	:::: Why do you bring up that you are an Israeli Jew if that's not what you mean? ''"Considering the fact that IRISZOOM is not fighting with everyone as often as she has done with past false accusations that were directed at me, one has to ask himself this why this is happening: Is it a coincidence that I am an Israeli Jew while she's a person who has links to some of the most anti-Israel websites in their user page?"''. Why didn't you only write "Israeli"? Not that this would be much better. Don't you see any problem with the claim you are making here? This is a serious accusation by you, don't change it to my being my fault. I see why you are changing it to be about me but lets be honest. You made personal attacks, directed at my language skills, and now it's has gotten worse with the two claims you have made here. You have to understand why I react and not just ignore it or try to make it irrelevant. --] (]) 21:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Again, to imply as Yambaram is insinuating here, 'is it a coincidence that I am an Israel Jew?', i.e. that we have a case of anti-semitism here is worthy of administrative note. ] (]) 22:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::First of all, my edits on Misplaced Pages are good and productive, and I'm rarely told otherwise. If there are specific edits you think I should correct, tell me so in the proper place, unlike what you did , and I'll gladly discuss the issue. I said "but let's not get into this" because as a life principle I tend to refrain from saying things that will probably not benefit either side of the argument, but since you׳re continuing your insistence I'll respond in details now.
	::::::I wrote that your account was barely active for about four years prior to late-2013 (correction - so it's again a half truth to say that your user page was empty for years. You made so few edits every year so this may be why you didn't bother to change your user page space. And no, I'm not "missing the point". The serious issue is the actual websites you promoted on you user page while asking visitors to click on them, and this is what I focused my explanation on as I examined which Misplaced Pages policies you're violating by having them. The other stuff about your edits was just side notes for whoever it may concern to take into consideration. And no, if you haven't noticed, you have made many more accusations than I have in this entry, and far less relevant and justified ones, indeed.
	::::::Nishidani, I'm not going to let you twist my words this time, as you did in "that case" IRISZOOM keeps referring to. Thankfully, as you got more people involved in that discussion by mentioning them, the statements you made about everyone were slowly debunked by those editors. So this is to both of you:
	::::::When I asked 'is it because I am an Israeli Jew while IRISZOOM has links to anti-Israel websites?' I was implying that your Misplaced Pages account/activity is anti-Israel, and so I raised the possibility that I may have been targeted by you because I'm Israeli. I'm surprised it's so hard for you to understand this as it's quite simple. And I ''asked'' it, as opposed to ''accused''. I wrote Israeli ''Jew'' because (and you know this very well) there are Palestinian Israelis (also known as Arab Israelis), which you IRISZOOM are very supportive of, as your edits indicate. So if I were an Israeli Muslim/Palestinian, my statement just wouldn't make sense as it would contradict the reality, so I clarified it by saying Israeli Jew. And even if I were to say "is it because I'm a Jew?", it still wouldn't be an accusation, which for various reasons you claim it to be. It is a question that I'm entitled to ask just like you can. In case you guys don't know what the word "accusation" really means, it is (according to Google) "a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong", which is not what I was doing when I asked our of concern why I was being targeted while IRISZOOM has had many disputes with different editors in the past.
	::::::You both are just harming you reputation the more and more here, and your false and offensive interpretations must be enforced by administrators. -] (]) 15:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::: I don't see what you want to say with that. This is not about our content disputes (which is normal to have), and I yes, I have explained to you several times (both in talk pages and in edits) regarding your edits, and I surely think my edits are also good and productive, but this is not about that. It's about your bad behaviour, which unfortunately, with this claim that you have made here, is much worse than I thougt your remarks about my language skills were.
	::::::: I don't know why you are keep saying that's "it's a half truth" and that you didn't miss the point. I will explain again.
	::::::: ''As for the links on the user page: I'd suggest the simple answer to that is for IRISZOOM to remove them. If they are unwilling to, Yambaram—or anyone similarly concerned—has the option to take the user page to Miscellany for Deletion and seek wider consensus on deletion of the page itself. But the idea that there's some grand propaganda war going on here because IRISZOOM has an all-caps username and makes a lot of edits to effectively spam the history page so as to seduce people reading the history page into clicking on their user page so that they can then get pro-Palestinian propaganda in the form of links to four websites... sorry, that's silly.'' '''- what Tom Morris wrote'''
	::::::: ''I have removed that from my user page now. I just want to add that those websites have only been there . I had an empty user page for several years before that. I have done much copyediting for much longer than that. So the silly claim makes even less sense.'' '''- what I said to him'''
	::::::: ''With all due respect, I think that what you called "silly" is actually the truth. You surely agree with me that whatever a Misplaced Pages user puts on their user page is what they want visitors to see. It's understandable, and it's what IRISZOOM did, but in his/her case, it's against Misplaced Pages's rules.''
	::::::: ''Also, from 2009 until late-2013 you were barely active and made as little as about 400 edits on English Misplaced Pages, so saying that your user page was empty for a few years is again a half-truth.'' '''- what you wrote'''
	::::::: What I explained to you in my last reply to you was that you said that the "silly" thing is "actually the truth" because ''"whatever a Misplaced Pages user puts on their user page is what they want visitors to see. It's understandable, and it's what IRISZOOM did"''. I said ''"It was not about which pages I had in my user page itself but your claim I wanted to promote it by making many edits"''. So you are now only talking about why I had that user page but ignoring '''''your silly theory''''' which my name and user page was a part of, namely that my "twisting name is meant to attract readers to enter her page and click on those anti-Israel links, as evidenced by the thousands of daily minor edits she makes just for the purpose of flooding Misplaced Pages with her user name for people to click on". In response to this, I also said (with a to it) that this claim makes less sense also because my user page was empty/only contained "IRISZOOM" for several years until a month ago. You respond by saying ''Also, from 2009 until late-2013 you were barely active and made as little as about 400 edits on English Misplaced Pages, so saying that your user page was empty for a few years is again a half-truth''. As I said, I am talking about my user page (not my edits), and the fact that I have done much copyediting for much longer than that makes your claim even more less sense. This is why your theory is getting debunked. But if you still want to believe it, no one can stop you.
	::::::: I think it's clear what you mean and they are atleast insinuations to anyone. Stop trying to hide behind linguistics and that you wrote "Israeli Jew" just because there are Palestinians who are Israelis. "Considering the fact that IRISZOOM is not fighting with everyone as often as she has done with past false accusations that were directed at me, one has to ask himself this why this is happening: Is it a coincidence that I am an Israeli Jew while she's a person who has links to some of the most anti-Israel websites in their user page?" is a very offensive remark. Obviously you don't agree with the interpretation so we will se what others say. The fact that you have made a similiar ] against another user (Nishidani) is also relevant. And no, it is not a "question that I'm entitled to ask just like you can". Even if what you say above is true, namely that you mean that I may have something against Israelis, it's still offensive. If you would have acknowledged that your remark was wrong, I would have accepted it, but you have made the opposite. Let us not play this "It's only questions"-game. It's not acceptable to have something against other nationalities. --] (]) 18:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::Excuse me, but what nationality did I have something against? None. You just wrongly accused me of having "something against other nationalities". Yet another serious Misplaced Pages rule you broke and should be sanctioned for. And with all these long texts you copy-pasted and all these blatant remarks, it's clear that you're just trying to make me look as bad as possible in the eyes of the uninformed reader. You keep referring to Nishidani (a user that was/claimed he was being called an 'antisemite' many times in the past, like and , to name a few), and this is becoming pathetic. You're telling me to stay on topic, while you do the opposite.
	::::::::And yes, I still believe this theory, which you haven't debunked simply because in this case it is impossible to debunk what one thinks. I cannot read your mind and therefore my opinion will probably not change. Because out of millions of English Misplaced Pages users, IRISZOOM is the only one who meets the following description: Has an all-caps username and makes hundreds of daily minor edits which obviously gets many visitors to click on it, while IRISZOOM'S views are clearly demonstrated in his/her editing and in those external links to websites for promotion, which clearly have no place on Misplaced Pages (an interesting side note is that the country you come from is one of least Israel-friendly ones in the world). But this specific issue was solved as you removed those links (it's better than having the whole user page removed via WP:MFD) - I do not interfere with anything as long as you/anyone else follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines. -] (]) 22:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::: First we start with your theory. Your argument about my user page and the part about what was considered silly was the thing I wanted to clarify as you misunderstood it. If you want to believe your theory, it's silly but you are allowed to do so.
	::::::::: I don't see what you want to say with those links. Yes, the fact that you wrote that to Nishidani is relevant. You got warned for this.
	::::::::: I am tired of you misreading thing after thing. I did '''not "accuse" ''you''''' of having "something against other nationalities". Read it again. I was referring to you who said that you meant "Israelis" and I responded that this wasn't acceptable either, as it's not okay to have something against other nationalities. -] (]) 23:43, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	== User:Khabboos ==
	''N.B. This was originally posted at ], but since this is much more of an incident, I've moved it here. ] (]) 00:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)''
	User ] has continuously and knowingly violated and attempted to violate Wikipedias] and ] originally on four pages (], ], ], and ]). He has already been warned by other editors that this is not allowed. Even though knowing this he continued to on the Sindhi people page. Following his recent edits on the ] ( and ) with his deliberate disruptive editing of a quote in a attempt to push his "agenda" I had personally come to inform him that he is severely risking being banned.
	Despite being of this, he completely ignored my message and want on his normal ways on the Sindhi people, Jayapala, and Hindu Kush pages. He would , restoring his edit and even after being told by 3 different editors that his edits are not neutral and unsourced. He also claims that the but on the contrary both sources say "migrated".
	Other disruptive edits include:
	Claiming to have for the Jayapala page even though none of his edits related to the source provided.
	Using original research on the ] page () which is also not allowed on Misplaced Pages.
	Using original research on the ] page ( and ). The references used are the same as the ones used on Hinduism in Pakistan.
	Adding a reference to the Sindhi page () to citation a needed. Though he provided a source it does not mention the numbers given on the article. I have already and several times before have told him to make sure his edits are supported by the source he has given and to make sure the source he gives is relates to the citation needed.
	Providing a "dead" "sourced" link to the ] page (); which called Hinduism "a way of life" which would also conflict with the fourth and fifth word in the first sentence of the first article which are "a religion". ] (]) 22:04, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
	:You tried ], or ]? ] (]) 12:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Noteswork, please do not give misleading advice on noticeboards - WT:INB is ''not'' an appropriate place to raise a contributor's behavioural issues, dispute resolution is only of use where there is an active discussion, and page protection is unlikely to solve a problem spread over multiple articles. I've not looked at the evidence in detail, but from Acidsnow's comments, it appears that admin action may be needed - in which case, this page is exactly the place to raise the issues. ] (]) 13:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
	::And BTW, editing your posts long after initial posting is confusing and unhelpful too. ] (]) 13:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::While I'm new here, I have been taking advice from friends who are active here. They tell me that I can ask for a senior to tutor me, that I can write anything on the Talk page and it is counted only as a discussion, not an edit. I also asked questions at the Tea House. I was also told that if more than a week has passed after I posted something, I will not be blocked/banned for it. Please tell me how to proceed.—] (]) 15:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::I have never heard of this, who said it? I have that you were risking being banned if you continued, yet you ignored my message and continued. Anyways, even if it was true it does not mean much. As for the talk pages I said "attempted" since you were warned that these break NPOV and were clearly showing .
	:::: *Sigh*, once again you have added original research on the Persecution of Hindus page ( and ). This also has been said by another user too ( and ). Why are you still doing this when me and other editors can see your edits? How many times must you be told to stop before you stop? ] (]) 21:36, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{outdent}} Some links that may be helpful. This is only for the ] portion, which I happened to see at the teahouse (I don't know anything about the rest of the articles). Here is the teahouse thread, ]. Here is my request for some savvy folks to take a peek, if they could, ]. Here is the article-talkpage thread, ]. Note that dispute over the "literal translation" sentences in mainspace (albeit not between AcidSnow and Khabboos I hope! :-) has been going on since 2005, see ]. Khabboos claims to be getting information straight from the 1957 national geographic article, if I understand the article-talkpage conversation. Hope this helps. ] (]) 02:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	: {{U|Khabboos}}, you asked a question at the Teahouse on January 27, but a review of that discussion does not show any such advice. ] ] 03:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I have already asked him who said it and to come back to the ANI , but he has yet to do so. Hopefully he stops ignoring it so we can end these types of edits. This user appears to have a serious problem with Islam (). Not just those but he has also continued to lie about his references then post them all over Hinduism in Pakistan ( and ) and on the Umayyad Caliphate page (). ] (]) 16:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I had made some edits to the article ] that can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hinduism_in_Pakistan&diff=593445517&oldid=593438770, but User:AcidSnow has formatted it, removing the sentences that say there were forced conversions back in time, that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005 etc (the references say that). Please tell me what to do about it.—] (]) 18:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Are you just ignoring all of my messages especially and I have left? None of the sources you provided support your POV. Are you simply Google searching books on the history of Pakistan without even reading them? As for the mob I have said this twice before it was a response to an alleged Quran desecration which you continued to ignore in your edits. It was not out of hate against Hindus but rather and attack out of anger. You have also ignored the questions previously asked you, but raised a question on what to do with my edits that have broken no rules. ] (]) 19:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::In the article on ], I wrote that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005, with this as a reference - '"Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera". http://www.dawn.com/news/145745/mob-ransacks-temple-in-nowshera. DAWN MEDIA GROUP. June 30, 2005. Retrieved 31 January 2014.', but you removed it, which means you did break the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war. In the article on ], you removed the names of 2 Sindhis, stating that they were not Sindhis, but the surname, Vaswani (see http://www.surfindia.com/matrimonials/sindhi.html and Vaswani, J.P.'s, 'I Am a Sindhi: The Glorious Sindhi Heritage - The Culture & Folklore of Sind. New Delhi, India: Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd. pp. 129–135. 9788120738072.') is a truly Sindhi surname ( can be seen here), which is again a breaking of the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war.&mdash;] (]) 13:51, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	===Block proposal===
	I am not sure if I am allowed to do this as I am not an administrator, but this appears to be the only solution to deal/stop with this user. Following his countless POV edits, disruptive edits, use of original research, lies, ignoring messages when told to stop and to rejoin the discussion (see my other comments above) I have request to have this user to be blocked form editing on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 20:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	:That's a strong claim, and needs substantiation; please post specific diffs to show that the user has lied. ] (]) 21:33, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	::He has and very clear ones would when he said, (he is referring to the Teahouse and I am not the only one that called him out on it). He has also claimed to . ] (]) 21:59, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::You said that the user has lied.
	:::Please can you show me where he has lied. Thanks. ] (]) 22:12, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::For the rule he stated, theres nothing at either Teahouse discussion that says anything like it (see and for each one). There's also no other discussion about it in his contribute history (had to make sure so I don't make false accusations). As for the "good reference", none of the edits he made are related to it, so he lied about that too. ] (]) 22:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
	:OK, so, you're talking about {{user|Khabboos}}, right? Got it.
	:Next, can you show some specific diffs that require admins? Thanks. ] (]) 00:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I am confused as to what you mean by that and what you are? You know a lot about Misplaced Pages's policies and have made many edits so far in your first day. They range from articles edits to blocking discussion; these are not normal for a first time editor. Have you been a user before?
	::Anyways, I have already listed all the things he has done up above. This discussion needs administrator intervention since this user could careless what others say (has been warned countess times). I was also guided here by . Another user who has also glanced at this section also see it as such. Since you appear to have missed the issues stated about this user please reread this discussion.
	::EDIT: It appears that you have been a user here before since you claim to have made . But than again . ] (]) 04:18, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::In the article on ], I wrote that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005, with this as a reference - '"Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera". http://www.dawn.com/news/145745/mob-ransacks-temple-in-nowshera. DAWN MEDIA GROUP. June 30, 2005. Retrieved 31 January 2014.', but you removed it, which means you did break the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war. In the article on ], you removed the names of 2 Sindhis, stating that they were not Sindhis, but the surname, Vaswani (see http://www.surfindia.com/matrimonials/sindhi.html and Vaswani, J.P.'s, 'I Am a Sindhi: The Glorious Sindhi Heritage - The Culture & Folklore of Sind. New Delhi, India: Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd. pp. 129–135. 9788120738072.') is a truly Sindhi surname ( can be seen here), which is again a breaking of the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war. I therefore request the administartor/s to block ] instead of me.&mdash;] (]) 13:51, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Your going to try to block me for going against your NON NPOV? You do realize since you keep on failing to mention that it was an anger attack not a hate crime that you are once again pushing your POV (which you have been told countless times that it not allowed? This is not breaking a rules if I remove it since it misrepresents the source. Also its not an edit war if you revert it once (once again I have not broken any rule). Dispet knowing this you continue to readded it () I removed it because they are not sourced being Sindhi. You know many Turks have the name Yusuf which is an Arab name, but they are not Arab? So the use of the surname does not help.
	:::::You also added an unsourced comment to the ] () about Pakistani Hindus which has nothing to do with the Mosque. This called Original Research, find a source next time (really, I still need to tell you this?). You also added another reference to Temples to the lead that have nothing to do with the mosque once again (). ] (]) 16:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Could you also tell us who told you the one week rule? You have already been asked twice, so you might as well as do it now. ] (]) 16:35, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::My offline wikipedia friends told me that if an edit goes unchallenged for more than a week and it is backed up by references that say the same thing, it is acceptable.&mdash;] (]) 16:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::Name? "unchallenged" and "backed up by references", odd, you did not say these before. Anyways this has nothing to do with the issues you have caused as they were challenged and not backed up. This also has been a continues problem too. ] (]) 17:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::<b>Dear admins,</b> In the article on ], I wrote that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005, with this as a reference - '"Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera". http://www.dawn.com/news/145745/mob-ransacks-temple-in-nowshera. DAWN MEDIA GROUP. June 30, 2005. Retrieved 31 January 2014.', which said the same thing, but ] is continuously removing it, so please tell me what to do.—] (]) 17:07, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::Why are constantly saying this? I have given you 3 legitimate reasons why its not needed, yet you keep on asking for Admin assistance? You are wasting time.
	{{outdent}}] Could you explain to me why the sentence "Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera" is not relevant as it appears to be sourced? Thanks ] ] 00:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::You are now : (, which you did more than once, making your , , and at the ). ] (]) 17:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
	Your a 100% right ] that it "appears" to be sourced and if that was the only thing the source said or that it was a "hate crime" or anything related to it than it would also be ok to add. However, the article goes on to say they were out to "avenge an alleged desecration of Holy Quran by a man here". As you can see it was done out of anger and nothing to do with persecution. It is also a miss representation of the source as the section it's being used is discussing persecution of Hindus. This is just another one of his attempts to push his POV. Those were the three reasons: nothing to do with persecution, miss representation of the article, and POV pushing. ] (]) 01:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Thanks for the explanation, ]. It's important to remember that not everyone has the benefit of all of the details of the disagreement and that you will need to be specific both here and at arbitration. Best wishes ] ] 02:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Understood, ] I have edited my response at the .. Could you close it now since it's now pointless to have it open? Also do I continue too wait for assistance? ] (]) 03:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Sorry I cant close. I will review your additions at Arbitration - Good luck ] ] 03:56, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Thank you anyways. ] (]) 03:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::I restored this discussion because it is still ongoing. If it was removed due to lack of discussion, it is because Khabboos has staled it even though I have asked him to return to it. This is not about a "dispute", but rather his inappropriate behavior. All Khabboos is trying to do is shift the discussion from his inappropriate behavior to this "dispute" he is "trying" to "resolve". In fact he would . When he responded to me, as you can , he has no desire to discuss his continues inappropriate behavior and even denied the discussions existence. ] (]) 14:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::There can be no mediation because: (1) "the mediation process is unsuitable for complaints about the behaviour of other editors" (see ]); and (2) because User:AcidSnow has not agreed to mediation. We need to discuss the behaviour issues.--] (]) 19:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	=== Behaviour ===
	AcidSnow has said that Khabboos provides citations that did not contain the information that they were claimed as a source for. I have looked at three of the citations that AcidSnow has complained about, and his/her complaints are justified. Khabboos, do you have an explanation for these?--] (]) 19:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	There are also cases where Khabboos has provided a genuine citation, but the citation only supports part of what he/she has added. This example happened today. The citation is completely accurate for the second sentence, but does not support the first sentence.--] (]) 19:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:], thank you for trying to keep this discussion going, but I doubt he well bother responding. As I have asked him to return, but he would ignored me and denied the discussions existence. ] (]) 01:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	== User:Yatzhek ==
	This is a complaint about ]
	The edit conflict that has caused the personal attacks and insults is .
	I noticed on the article ] a slight error, the mention of ethnic Poles as an inferior race and as "racially non-Aryan" is incorrect and the source given does not mention this. I then removed this and have found myself having to revert this a couple of times now. Before doing this I created a new section on the users talk page which can be found which was my attempt at explaining why I removed the text that the user has kept reverting back into the article along with evidence. The replies are astonishing and are full of personal attacks whilst warning the user about this. I then created the discussion on the actual article itself which can be found and again there is no cooperation with the user but rather insult after insult and personal attacks. One personal attack which really made me angry was "How dare you discredit the Polish suffering during the Shoa by saying that Poles were treated as Aryans? https://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust_victims - Hope you read the whole of my message and educate yourself. Thank you". The user then decided to "contribute" towards a discussion held a little while ago which can be found and this was the final straw, I received this at the end of the rant "You are from England, so you are either anti-Polish racist and hate the fact that Poles suffered racial persecution in their own country, or you are Polish and strongly want to be a full-fledged member of the Stormfront forum. That's all. Thank you." This was the final hurdle and one step too far, the user knows nothing about me (I might even be Polish myself?) it is not the users concern what I am as we are all just editors on Misplaced Pages and is now also accusing me of being Polish and wanting to be a member of the Stormfront forum.
	There is no cooperation with the user despite the many attempts, the user even created a section on my talk page and just copy and pasted the same text of one of the responses on their own talk page. I am not getting anywhere with the user and it is now just becoming too personal for my liking simply because I am refuting and removing the text given that the user wants in the article.
	I am not happy with these personal attacks and constant reverting without actually giving an explanation, the history of the reverts can be found and the user clearly is not reading my reasons, such as:
	"I've already created a section on your talkpage regarding this, Poles were 'Aryan' not "racially non-Aryan", the source given does not state that and it is irrelevant to the article anyways. Please see your talk page before rv again."
	Users reply:
	"Undid revision 594494517 by Windows66 (talk) 2 million Poles were victims of Holocaust. They were not only discriminated but killed"
	I have warned the user a few times and the user has chosen to ignore me, I want this resolved please as the personal attacks were one step too far. Can you please help?--] (]) 15:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	And the personal attacks continue...
	"Are completely out of your mind? Why are you saying this "Aryan, Aryan, Aryan" thing all the time? This was not the case and you push this topic all the way! I had enough! You deleted the information about ethnic Poles because you dont understand the article Black people in Nazi Germany - ethnic Poles were mention as people who suffered SIMILAR persecutions... or should I say - Blacks suffered similar persecutions to Poles. You are an anti-Polish pseron, hating on this nation, can't stand the fact that Poles were the victims and I think, if you had such power, you would delete all the articles about the Polish suffering and victims of the Would War II. The question is - why? Racism? Antipolonism?"--] (]) 16:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::You hate the Poles. Admit it. Be a man and admit it. Why everything you do on Misplaced Pages is hunting the articles about Polish suffering during the WWII and deleting the information about them? Why don't you delete Gypsies? Didn't you know that Gypsies were higher on the "racial ladder" than Poles accoring do many Hitler's cooperators? Haven't you heard about 2 million non-Jewish ethnic Poles killed in the German Nazi death camps? You are making a lot of conflict around yourself. Be a human, not an anti-Polish monster. True, Germans considered Poles half-Aryan, but that doesn't change the fact Poles were the second largest victim group of Nazism, right after Jews. you JUST CAN'T DENY IT. don't you dare ] ! ] (]) 16:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::It looks that Yatzhek has difficulties understanding some basic policies of Misplaced Pages (]). On the other hand, Windows66 himself is doing exactly what Yatzhek is doing: accusations and personal attacks on other contributors, edit warring, and copying and pasting material from one articles talk page to another,, -- ] (]) 17:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	You are showing yourself to attack me even more through ] right on the page that I have reported you on.
	I do not hate Poles. I have nothing to admit. I have not removed any text about Poles (Jewish Poles or ethnic Poles) suffering during WWII by the Nazis. I never deleted the Gypsies because they were persecuted as an "inferior race" according to the Nuremberg Laws, this was not the case with ethnic Poles. Gypsies and their Aryan purity can be seen on the article ], Gypsies were classified as non-Aryan; they were seen as originally Aryan but became too racially mixed and were subject to losing their German citizenship, forbid from having sexual relations and marriages with Aryans, again this was not the case with the Poles. Where did I deny that Poles were not victims of Nazism? Poles were seen as fully-Aryan not just half-Aryan (plenty of evidence for this). You seem incapable of handling the truth and because of this have continued to personally attack, attack and attack me for simply removing un-sourced content. Who spoke about denying anything??? Who spoke about denying crimes against Poles??? NOBODY. What I removed was that ethnic Poles were viewed as an "inferior race", its not true. Second removal they were "racially non-Aryan", again not true.
	You claimed on another users talk page (found ) that you struggle with English yet you seem enough to constantly insult me to the level of calling me "racist".
	I've tried to co-operate with you, for example after your rant without any sources I asked for you to produce the responses were:
	- me asking for evidence.
	- your rant.
	You won't answer anything I say but then full out call me racist and anti-Polish, then the more severe personal attacks came...--] (]) 17:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	@Tobby72 - The reason it was removed from the Nazism article was already mentioned, the Slavs is already mentioned and Poles are Slavs so there is no need in a separate insertion of the same text when Slavs covers it.
	I've not personally attacked anyone, I've not called anyone a racist, a white supremacist, etc etc. I've not personally attacked you I first even said it might be a coincidence, especially now since you're following it up on here.
	May I ask why you are even bothering to reply on this when it is really to do with me, Yahzhek and administrators?--] (]) 17:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Closely related to this incident: I am calling for someone with historical interest in ] to review the onging dispute on the to this article regarding a serious ] issue.
	:Windows66 has repeatedly removed referenced information from the Nazism article and used this quotes to support his assertion that "Poles and other non-Germans were not going to be treat like second-class citizens because they were to be equally citizens of the German state just as much as Germans..." seems to me to be ] of the worst kind (I can quote from it: ''"... Of course, before Nuremberg, that is still in the war, allied "aces information warfare" periodically recurring thoughts about wanting to "fascists" exterminate millions of people, but then it was just propaganda, often very clumsy. ... By inventing such posts Jewish writer performs a social order, fomenting bestial hatred of everything German, and encouraging physically destroy German women and children. ... the Slavic peoples, and, of course, the Russian people were officially recognized in the Reich racially related, fraternal ethnic groups. What is the meaning to destroy their brethren - here's a simple question that we address Kovalev, Black and other conscious and unconscious falsifiers of history."'').
	:Has Misplaced Pages been hijacked by ] revisionist authors like Artur Silgailis and David Irving? Thanks. -- ] (]) 08:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	It was already mentioned why it was undone and removed, it is already discovered in the paragraph regarding Slavs, Poles are Slavs.--] (]) 11:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:I have left ] a warning for accusing Windows66 of Holocaust denial. Regardless of the content dispute, his comment above clearly aggravates the situation. ] ] 16:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	@Tobby72, I have not put any anti-semitic or revisionist stuff into any talk pages but rather copied and pasted from a Russian website that some historians and authors deny any racial hatred towards Slavs existed and show evidence that Slavs were recognized also as Aryans.
	Thank you Shii. I have tried numerous of times to cooperate with this user but to no avail. The user yesterday said he/she would not edit the ] article anymore and that I have "won", see , yet I logged on this morning and have found several new tedious edits by this user including on the article he/she said their would not edit again on. See for the edit on the Black people in Nazi Germany article. Other edits include and which was challenged and ignored as "nonsense" by the first reply from another user, see .--] (]) 18:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	Either the same user or a sock puppet can this please be checked out, see which is a load of nonsense because I have no undone any information on the ] article which can be shown .--] (]) 15:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	And another attack on me , can this please be followed up, thank you.--] (]) 17:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	== New class of editors? ==
	Perhaps someone is teaching a class and got a bunch of students to sign up in last few days; or maybe someone has a bunch of socks? Anyway, these guys are editing a lot of the same articles the last few days, and making a lot to clean up after:
	* {{userlinks|JaunJimenez}}
	* {{userlinks|DaveeBlahBlah}}
	* {{userlinks|BatManFascination}}
	* {{userlinks|808caTFish}}
	* {{userlinks|SuleeeOuh}}
	Among the articles edited by at least a couple of them in the last week are ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ].
	Is there any good way to bulk notify them or help them be less of a problem in their contributions? ] (]) 01:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*"Bulk"? Not that I know of. Try individually, or try to figure out who the teacher might be (you can ''ask'' them). ] (]) 04:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Edits by ] include copyvio from the same sources that ] was fond of plagiarizing. The areas of electronic components and ocean/salinity that are the focus of this pool of editors are also the area of that sock-drawer. ] (]) 05:30, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::You mean ? I'm not seeing the copyvio in the 2nd one; do you have an easy way to find? And the third appears to be nothing, and a different account. ] (]) 07:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Yes (well, I was seeing the 2011 edition of it). "an inductor with an iron core has a greater inductance than an inductor with an air core." matches, and many of the surrounding phrases sentences do too (albeit with different conjunctions). See for a "very close not exact" match as well (but close-paraphrase is still headed towards WP copyvio land especially if not cited). For #3, I meant , which is again from that same published work. ] (]) 08:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::All ] also appear to be cut'n'pasted from that book. Although there may be some "intrinsic non-protectable facts" in the technical diagrams, WP still requires citation when taking from a source (and the source ''does not'' assert free licensing) rather than claiming "own work". Uploading images from various published texts is also part of Jwratner1's pattern. ] (]) 08:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Edit by ] is copyvio (can't remember if it's a source the SPI used). ] (]) 05:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::If you know it's a copyvio, could you please revert it, saying so? ] (]) 07:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Some already had been (for content/sourcing reasons), got distracted before checking the others' history:( I just did some. ] (]) 08:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*Note ]. I believe in good faith and those articles need help. Maybe CU would be helpful for the suspected sock, but let's try and be optimistic and helpful first, OK? ] (]) 18:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Yes, they need help. ] (]) 07:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* {{Userlinks|EdsonCordeirodeSouza}}
	==Holds not being respected at ]==
	{{archive top|result=I'm going to be bold and close this before more difficult analogies and more personal attacks start flying; that would really screw up ]'s day, and we don't want that. This is primarily a discussion to be held on the DYK talk page, and if no resolution can be found there, and if that is the venue where individual editors' behavior becomes problematic, only then can ANI be considered as a platform. But so far I see discussion that in the end is about DYK, its rules, its supplementary rules, its courtesies, its conventions, its difficulties. It's not yet for here. ] (]) 18:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)}}
	* At Did You Know nominations, users are extended the courtesy of having nominations 'held' until a specific date, Although consensus may or may not emerge for them to actually be scheduled on that date, we preserve the possibility. We are currently respecting the holds on items for Valentines Day, "The Investiture of new cardinals appointed by Pope Francis" (Feb 22), the 2014 Football League Cup Final (March 2), and Internatioanl Women's Day (March 8)
			The user in question has been persistently disruptive editing and edit warring, currently primarily on ]. As it's been excluded for however long, the contestant/mask/celebrity they continue adding to the table was '''''not''''' a competing contestant and was only in the season as a special guest, as already mentioned in prose text with the table. Also in that they keep edit warring back to, they continue messing up one of the sources URLs, changing it from <code>https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-'''anonymouse'''-1235719311/</code> to <code>https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-'''anony mouse'''-1235719311/</code>, which in turn, continues to create .
	* {{u|Gobonobo}} nominated ] with a requested hold date of Feb 11. Admin {{u|Resolute}} .
	* {{u|Orlady}} is , ahead of schedule, ignoring the hold request over the objections of others, despite knowing this is a controversial move.
	* To the best I can tell, no attempt was even made notify {{u|Gobonobo}} and alert him to the fact that his hold request was going to be ignored, out of process and contrary to status quo expectations.
	I do not feel this is appropriate, and think it shows a distinct lack of respect for {{u|Gobonobo}}. I would request Orlady <s>unschedule the item and respect the validly-stated hold request from {{u|Gobonobo}}</s> Too late now, it's on main. The past is the past, but I would request Orlady clarify that in future they will not, as a rule, run held material ahead of schedule, as was done here.--] (]) 04:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			As seen on their talk page, this also does not appear to be their first time disruptively editing and edit warring. Despite their warnings less than a month ago and their recent warnings I've added to their talk page, they continue doing the same exact thing and there is ] '''whatsoever'''. I had this at AIV, but as it was not specifically 'vandalism', I was advised to come here. Hoping this can be resolved, thank you. ] (]) 02:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:My perspective is that Hector Moffet's actions at ] have been disruptive. With less than an hour to go before the next scheduled update to the main page, I checked the status of the ] and found that there were no admin-approved updates. Furthermore, the next two unapproved prep areas in line were each short by one hook (but did not display an empty slot) because Hector Moffet had removed hooks that he apparently feels that he ]s, without also removing the code that creates records and "credits" for hooks that have appeared at DYK, and without editing the nomination templates for "his" hooks to record the fact that he had removed them from the prep area. Both of these hooks had been promoted to the prep areas by another DYK volunteer who had been aware of Hector's request to reserve them for a certain date and had decided to run them on 9 February instead. Given the time-urgent situation, I restored the removed hooks and approved both hook sets for the main-page queue.
			{{abot}}
	:Note that DYK does not routinely run hooks on dates requested by the article creator or nominator, although some items are scheduled for "special occasions" when volunteers are convinced that this is justified. There has been plenty of discussion of this situation with Hector Moffet in recent days (including ] and ]). I've lost patience with him and his apparent view that the importance of his political agenda justifies over-riding the standard protocols and disrupting the processes of the Misplaced Pages community. --] (]) 05:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Yes, ad hominem to HectorMoffet, who after years of hard gnome work suddenly became a drama queen completely unprovoked.<br/>But what's being missed is that I'm not {{u|Gobonobo}}-- he did nothing wrong to earn your disrespect. He asked for his content to be held, an admin approved for it to be held, and you flat out ran it without a word to either of them. --] (]) 06:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::"He asked for his content to be held, an admin approved for it to be held", and nobody is required to say a word to either of them before running the hook, as any hold is nothing more than a courtesy. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 06:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Bushranger explains the situation well. Also, please note that it was ] (not me) who moved those hooks to the prep areas. On the ] hook, that user's edit summary states "no consensus on Surveillance awareness day, going with olympics; need non American hook." That summary reflects the reality that DYK volunteers post a new set of 7 hooks every 8 hours, and we endeavor to maintain topical balance in each set. It takes the cooperation of a number of volunteers to keep DYK running. How many more hours of volunteer time do you intend to divert from the process of keeping the DYK feature running in order to argue that a couple of individual hooks are uniquely entitled to special treatment? --] (]) 06:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::*Oh poo! These folk who will ] to get their desired date of insertion or top slot are getting annoying. Hector is clearly engaged in ], quite against consensus. He objected before, got in a huff, puts a semi-retired tag on his user page and now creates a ruckus because he wants his own way again. NO. He needs to learn the best way is amicable cooperation, not strong-arm tactics. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 07:12, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	------
	Okay, let's move beyond Feb 11 and {{u|Gobonobo}}, that's in the past. Let's just look at going forward and focus on preventing this same problematic behavior from recurring in the future.<br/>I see that {{u|Theparties}} has DYK content approved and being held for the '''"Investiture of new cardinals appointed by Pope Francis"''' on Feb 22. Now can we agree that that it's inappropriate of you to run {{u|Theparties}}'s nomination for Feb 22 on Feb 19???
	<br/>And if, for some reason, you DO need to run an admin-approved nomination ahead of its hold date, you need to, ''at minimum'', try to contact {{u|Theparties}} to let them know there's a change of plan. <br/>If you were only rude to me and gobonobo, we can drop it. If it's your standard operating procedure, it's a problem. --] (]) 07:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			== User:Janessian is very clearly not here to build an encyclopedia ==
	: "no attempt was even made notify Gobonobo"..."without a word to either of them"..."rude to me and gobonobo"...HectorMoffet, I'm not seeing where you notified Orlady of this discussion (which she evidently found on her own). A tad bit hypocritical, no? ] (]) 08:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::<small>Nah, hypocrisy would be if I didn't try to / want to notify Orlday. In fact, Orlady was the very first commenter, probably alerted via the "Your Notify" gadget, and posted a responding within minutes, as I was still polishing my statement. But you make a good point-- if I had let a discussion go on without notifying Orlady, that would be bad. --HectorMoffet (talk) 08:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
	:::]: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you <u>must</u> notify them on their user talk page." Orlady replied 35 minutes after you started the discussion. ] (]) 09:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	: The recurrence of problematic behavior can only happen if there was problematic behavior to recur - and there was no "problematic behavior" here. As for the ] you mention, if a DYK queue on February 19th is short and the only way to fill it is to grab a hook being held for February 22nd, then that hook being held for February 22nd is going to run on February 19th, full stop. ''Holds are a courtesy, and there is no obligation either to hold, maintain a hold, or notify that a hold has been 'run early'.'' Being "Admin-approved" ''means nothing'' at DYK; you don't even need to be autoconfirmed to approve a hook or to move it to a hold area. It requires the use of exactly zero tools to do, and thus whether or not the editor who did it wields a mop is wholly irrelevant. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 08:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::you say "Holds are a courtesy"-- what I want to know is, are we going to be extending that courtesy to {{u|Theparties}} on Feb 22, or should TheParties brace themselves for the same discourtesy {{u|Gobonobo}} experienced. This should be a simple answer: no, as a rule, we won't run held material ahead of schedule. --] (]) 08:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*Please stop ], accusing others of wrongdoing and changing the subject away from your own disruptive actions. If you hadn't tried to be so pushy, you might have been pleasantly surprised on 11 feb. Instead, you are getting people's backs up. DYK already has to run by quite a few rules and constraints, and it's often difficult to make up sets accordingly. And I don't see the need for a HectorMoffet Appeasement Policy, thank you very much. Now will you kindly drop that bone of yours?. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 09:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::The weirdest part is that Orlady is the user who '''proposed''' that February 11 be treated as a "special occasion" at DYK. This failed to generate consensus, so she scheduled Hector's hook normally. When he inquired about this, she politely {{diff|User_talk:HectorMoffet|594160600||explained}} that the idea was rejected, informed him that it was past her bedtime, and advised him to raise the matter at ] if he still felt that a change was needed. Instead, Hector {{diff|Template:Did you know/Preparation area 3|594162123||removed}} the DYK item from the set, {{diff|Draft:Mass surveillance in East Germany|594162815||moved}} the article back to the draft namespace and {{diff|Draft:Mass surveillance in East Germany|594163084||inserted}} a bogus tag "to keep off mainpage for a few days". He also {{diff|User_talk:Jimbo Wales|594162625||reported}} Orlady on Jimbo's talk page (and didn't bother to notify her of ''that'' either), {{diff|User talk:Jimbo Wales|594167461||claiming}} that she's part of a clique attempting to undermine consensus. Keep in mind that Orlady '''proposed''' the very idea that Hector believes was unfairly cast aside. —] 10:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::<small>Really not about me. What courtesies are going to be extended to future DYK newbies? As a general rule, is it okay to cannabilize ''''Feb 22''' HOLDS on '''Feb 19'''? --] (]) 10:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
	::::::Please see ]. —] 10:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::Yes, this is, actually, about you; you can't decide "this AN/I isn't about me". At AN/I, all participants in a discussion are under the microscope - continued "this isn't about me" only puts you under more scrutiny. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 11:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*My above question stands. I'm okay with ME being disrespected-- At least some of my proposal ideas were genuinely controversial. But I have a duty to ensure that I'm the last DYK newbie to be ] in this way. <br/>Again, I note that {{u|TheParties}} has DYK content on hold for '''Feb 22'''. Is it appropriate for us to run that content on '''Feb 19''' or not??? --] (]) 09:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*The problematic behaviour was all your own to begin with, so you have no right to talk about the respect that you feel you are owed. If you go to Le Gavroche in a ripped Tee, shorts and rubber thongs, you'd expect to be told off. OVER AND OUT. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 10:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*Homophobic hate-speech not withstanding, I note that {{u|TheParties}} has DYK content on hold for '''Feb 22'''. Is it appropriate for us to run that content on '''Feb 19''' or not??? All nominations deserve equal respect, {{u|TheParties}} is just one example. The harder it is to for people to admit all nominations are 'equal under the law', the more concerned I get . --] (]) 10:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::*"Homophobic hate speech"? ''Really?'' (For the record, the "thongs" referred to you may know as "flip-flops".) While Ohconfucious may possibly have been ], there's nothing "homophobic" about what he said; further ] like that may well result in this AN/I report turning into a ]. As for your ] to what everyone here is telling you, please ], it's not going to get any deader just because you keep asking the same question over and over because we're not telling you what you apparently want to hear. There was no ], there was no "misconduct", there is nothing else to see or do here other than continue to dig your hole deeper. Unlike what some would like to believe, we really ''don't'' like blocking or banning people, so it'd be appreciated if you'd let the ] be sufficent. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 10:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	* Is this really what I wake up to? "Potentially holding a DYK to a date" is a nicety, not a requirement - period. Nobody on Misplaced Pages gets to have things scheduled based on their time. If we have zero DYK's one day, the project will move a couple into the queue. These aren't ''promises'', they're "we'll promise to try, but cannot guarantee". Seriously, calling this "disrespect" is disrespectful to the project ''en masse'' <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Hey, all you insiders that haven't been ] may not understand.<br/> Most of us are of the understanding that a '''hold''' is held. If that's not the way you want to run things, rewrite the headers to make it crystal clear that nominations are just '''polite suggestions'''' requesting '''special permission from the owners''', which the owners may ignore as they please. <br/> My experiences with DYK was very '''negative''' because I ] that my '''holds''' would be '''held'''.<br/> Now, even if you agree I'm an ahole, let's still learn from my negative experience and make it crystal clear to future users that "holds" aren't held, they're just a "mother may I" plea for special favors from insider-owners, not actual holds like the literal interpretation would suggest. This will decrease future friction.--] (]) 11:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::: Rather than look at this from the other side and see that "promised dates" are contrary to the community's concept at large, you wanted to get the last word in and a few zingers too? Nice. Reallllly nice <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::*{{ping|HectorMoffet}}You have to understand that rescheduling of Syromolotov is '''not''' about you. There was no biting. You are wrong to barge in like a bull into the proverbial china shop and expected everyone and everything move out of your way. There is no obligation to hold for a certain date. The regulars do their best to ensure that consensual holding dates are accommodated, but let me just reiterate that 11 February is not such a consensual date. <p>BTW, I thought carefully about using the word "thong" that I deliberately prefixed it with the adjective "rubber". Maybe that isn't enough these days of political correctness. ;-) --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 11:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::There are no "]". - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 11:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::<small>I know that, and you know that-- but I know a few users who don't know this --] (]) 11:16, 9 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
	* Can someone just close this before things go too far?. This isn't the place to change the rules for DYK - that would be ].] (]) 11:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	** Closure is rarely helpful-- I'm asking legitimate questions and I'm not demanding any specific action against anyone in particular. Ignoring a question doesn't make it go away. --] (]) 11:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	------
	There's no shortage of ad hominem, but let's refocus: <br/>The question I'm seeking to have answered is: '''Who decides if it's okay to run {{u|Theparties}}'s Feb 22 holds ahead of schedule'''? Who is on the list to unilaterally make that decision? Is that one name? is that a few names? Or can that change only be made by community consensus?<br/> When I was a newbie, I genuinely couldn't figure out the answer. I still don't know the answer. '''You need to make this clear''', not just wing it. --] (]) 11:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:: Let me make this clear: '''that question is not the remit of this board'''; period. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*You forget that this is a wiki. The answer to your question will probably be the same as "who will create "]"? &ndash; It will be whoever gets around to it. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 11:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*Good answer, OC. I hope your answer is correct-- that no users claim any special ownership of DYK. Sadly, my recent experiences have led me to lose some of my naive optimism. Let us both hope your vision is the accurate one. --] (]) 11:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Reviewing some sample of the vast bureaucracy of pages that make up DYK -- it appears that not only are there ], but there ] -- but none of the rules that I found directly address Hector's concern. Since it appears the requested date section is only a ] old, I assume the rules (I don't know whether they are rule rules, or supplementary rules) are still evolving. So I suggest the Hector post a ''polite'' inquiry on ] asking what the current practice is, and perhaps requesting an appropriate note be placed in one of the rules pages setting the appropriate expectations for the management of date requests are unable to be fulfilled. <small>]</small> 16:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			Janessian seems to be not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to harass editors over a pair of images they don't like in the article ]. They have already been sanctioned twice for edit warring on the article, but this latest comment between myself, ], ], and ], they posted this lovely little gem ]] on JBW's talk page. Nelson has just informed me that Janessian has made a rather unpleasant comment on phil knights talk page as well ]].] (]) 04:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I agree that Hector has been poorly treated. He spent the time, wrote up the articles, and expected them to run on a day they were scheduled for, only to be told by some other editors that ''his'' event is something not worth commemorating, while others' events are. Some have justified this by saying the issue was closed when a ''different'' proposal, one to run years-old hooks on a Special Day, was rejected, but that's just wrong. Regarding advocacy: Misplaced Pages's policy on advocacy makes no distinction between sport, religion, and politics - if any one of the three deserves to be held for a certain day, so do the others. I raised the example of the elevation of the Cardinals because we have to decide what happens if someone wants to hold articles about a less popular religious group (such as the ]). If we have centralized authority claiming the right to decide whose hooks have the right to be scheduled, we may end up with a list of official Misplaced Pages religions that can claim scheduling rights, whereas others are unapproved. Since that is an unacceptable outcome, this is an unacceptable policy.
			:], do you have more diffs that show a pattern of behavior? I think there has alreay been a report about them at ANI and a link to that discussion would help the case you are making. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Now it may be that allowing anyone to schedule hooks for a certain day in the near future is more work, but it's fair, and the work could be automated. The elaborate system of DYK holding areas dates back to pre-Scribunto times - it is possible for me and others to write scripts that could implement some other procedure. I don't really know that much about DYK, but this shouldn't be rocket science.
			::It looks like they were called both to ANI and ANEW. Links to prevous discussions help put a complaint in context. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	: In the meanwhile, I think it's important for Hector to be careful about doing ad hoc edits/moves to fix the situation if they could have unintended consequences. I don't want the whole DYK mechanism broken over a day or two difference in when a hook runs; I want the problems fixed. The NSA is not closing up shop on February 12, nor the agencies with which they share surveillance data, and it is all too likely that Misplaced Pages will be facing existential threats from imminent legislation sometime in the next year or two. There will be all too many opportunities for the site, by necessity, to get involved in activism to save itself. ] (]) 17:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::Link to my complaint to ANEW: ]], ]]. JBW handled the first block. ] (]) 06:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, I was mistaken about a prior visit to ANI. I thought Isabelle blocked them. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::At this point my main concern is protecting fellow editors. Janessian's conduct has caused @] what seems to be a fair amount of distress. ] (]) 06:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Isabelle blocked Janessian from editing the article. but some degree of talk page harassment has continued. ] (]) 06:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Janessian's editing is unacceptable in several ways, including edit-warring, legal threats, and personal attacks. I gave a short block, and when the unacceptable editing resumed Isabelle Belato gave an indef partial block from the article in question. For both blocks edit-warring was given as the reason, but it is perfectly clear that the problems go beyond that. The block from the article has been followed by unacceptable user talk page editing. I shall convert the block to a total one, apart from Janessian's own talk page, and post a message to that page in which I shall try to make it clearer what the problems are, and what can be done about them. Unfortunately it will take me a little while to get time to do that, but I hope minutes rather than hours. ] (]) 10:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Firstly, it's important to avoid conflating the concept of ''a'' hook being held for a certain date with the concept of a "special occasion" on which multiple hooks sharing a common theme are run together. The latter (which was proposed in this instance) simply isn't feasible without consensus that a particular "special occasion" is suitable. Otherwise, any editor or group of editors could write/expand a bunch of articles from a particular subject area (birds, insects, plants, ships, the Eurovision Song Contest, ''Friends'' episodes, etc.) and submit DYK hooks for an arbitrary date, thereby thwarting efforts to maintain a balance of topics.
	::So we (by which I mean the Misplaced Pages community, as I'm not particularly active at DYK) have to decide when a "special occasion" is well established and widely recognized by reliable sources. Your concern regarding unequal treatment (and the potential for certain groups, such as religions, to be excluded unfairly) is a valid one, but that isn't what occurred in this instance. ] is a planned protest, ''not'' an event with recognition or cultural significance approaching that of the Olympics or the investiture of new cardinals appointed by the Pope.
	::And as I pointed out to you {{oldid2|594631706|Orlady's Prejudgment of consensus and scheduling against procedure|on Jimbo's talk page}}, these articles' subjects merely relate to the political cause behind the February 11 event, ''not'' the event itself. It's no secret that the motive behind the request is to '''participate''' in the protest, which contradicts multiple Misplaced Pages principles (and which there is no consensus to do).
	::The discussion on Jimbo's talk page also contains the following exchange:
	::{{quotation|{{gi|Note that the "lengthy discussion" linked above rejected a different proposal to re-run old DYKs, which I also opposed, but is not a blanket ban on this topic!}}<br />One of the subsections (introduced by Orlady, as noted above) is titled "]". You {{diff|Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know|591641533||supported}} said proposal, so it's curious that you've now overlooked it. Discussion of the broader idea to tie DYK into the February 11 protest occurred throughout the parent section.}}
	::So I don't know why you're ''still'' making that assertion. —] 17:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I actually lost track of that thread - but scrolling down, I see 5 '''Support''' and 3 '''Oppose''', for taking over ''all'' the DYKs on the page. How is this possibly evidence that we shouldn't allow ''any'' of these DYKs to run on that day?? ] (]) 18:12, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::From a practical standpoint, there are still 8 of Hector's nominations in the DYK which have not yet made it to the queues or the MP (of which 7 are US topics). They will all eventually get there unless the articles themselves get deleted. But bearing in mind the logjam and the quotas applied for the building of sets, simple mathematics mean that we probably couldn't run them all on 11 Feb even if we wanted to. But this is a digression. <p>As I stated earlier, Hector was "poorly treated" mainly because he got worked up that DYK regulars would not entertain a Surveillance Day holding. He himself treated others quite a bit less than spectacularly. Respect works both ways. <p>As to combating advocacy, DYK could decide not to entertain any polemic topics such as religion or politics. And I'm not sure we are ready to do away with holding for St Valentine's Day or other such religious or quasi-religious observance. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 18:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			* Well, in the 42 minutes between my posting the message above and my getting time to come back and follow it up, Janessian posted a couple of messages on the talk page of the article, which were much more like attempts to start a civil discussion. I shall therefore hold fire on the block, and post a message to their talk page about the way forward. ] (]) 11:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Okay, I honestly don't know what's going on but I'm fine with as long as what I nominated appears.--] (]) 17:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			*:@], @], @], Well...I seen the message too. I had read through, but I had a bad feeling about this. Plus, all crime wiki articles often use news reports apart from court sources or books to support the information published on the article. I find that he did not comprehend or understand that part, and some of his parts about working with the police to write crime on wikipedia is a bit hard considering that we are not working in that field. He also said he will refer to crime report in this case ] (]) 12:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::There was absolutely no consensus for running the 'Day we Fight Back' as a special occasion, therefore no hooks for it should be held. ]]<span style="color: #800080">.</span>] 18:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			*::@], @], @], how will we respond to his messages? , , , , ] (]) 12:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			*:@], @], @], in the unpleasant message in @]'s talkpage, it seems that he knew some hints of where I am and what I am doing. I felt uneasy about how he replied in the talk page and his most recent messages. ] (]) 12:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::{{u|NelsonLee20042020}}, I haven't looked into any other aspects of this, but {{u|Janessian}} does not seem to have posted anything in that message that you have not disclosed on your talk page. ] (]) 12:36, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::What do you mean? could you specify in your statement please? ] (]) 12:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The messages I am referring to, @], are the ones in the external links I placed above. ] (]) 12:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::@], , . I am sending you his first messages in my talk page (which were removed), if you are talking about what he said in my talk page. ] (]) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::So far. These are the recent replies he gave to some of us. , , . ] (]) 14:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== A Case of Vandalism and Ignorance ==
	== Clear legal threat ==
	{{archivetop|Indef'd with talk page access revoked. ] (]) 13:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)}}
	{{user|Jasondalesweeet}} ''Good. I'll see you next week to meet in person with my attorney for discriminating against me.'' ] (]) 07:22, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Yup - I was just looking into this contributor, after responding to another legal threat on the help desk . A post on their talk page also contains this little gem: ""I'll fry your computer's CPU and kill it instantly to make sure it won't ever work again from all the way from over here next time you bother my page." ] (]) 07:30, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			There is in my view a vandalism case in the wikipedia page ].
	::I've indeffed for Legal threats and personal attacks, there is similar on ] <font face="chiller"><font color="red"><b>] - </b></font></font><font face="arial"><font color="green">]</font></font> 07:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			'''Pls Understand whole matter'''
	== ] ==
			First thing, i am assuming that in that Ahir page, it has concensus for long time that Generally Ahir has three Sub-Division. 1) Yaduvanshi 2) Nandavanshi and 3) Goallavanshi ,
	Just to note, we seem to be in a bit of a reviewer slump at Featured pictures just now - a lot of things are closing with just under the minimum number of supports, and no opposes. So if anyone would like to review, please do! <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">''']''' <sup>(])</sup></span> 08:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			reason being, i check throughout history of that page that these three divison have there for many years.
			But recently one editor changed all that in three edits these are following -
	== Troll? ==
	{{archive-top|1=A trout for the IP for improper use of ANI. ] ] 16:13, 9 February 2014 (UTC)}}
	] here. I'm not sure if I'm violating ] by posting here, but could someone look at potentially blocking ]? His last several edits appear to be trolling. ] (]) 10:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			At first stance , i like their reason of these editing and thought probably this guy has a valid reason for doing that and I ignored.
	:Why would you get that idea? ] (]) 10:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Because after almost two years' absence you showed up at an article about an ancient Japanese poet and posted an incomprehensible rant about "purges conducted in 1985" and used triple and possibly quadruple negatives. Your other edits don't look much better. ] (]) 10:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Since you're required to discuss directly with the other editor in order to try and resolve things ''before'' coming to ANI (especially before throwing names like "troll" around), could you point us to the results of that discussion? <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Where is that rule written down? This isn't a dispute; I saw an account that seemed to be doing nothing but posting nonsense comments in RFCs, so I reported it. I'd like someone more experienced with these issues to look into the issue further. The diff I posted in the comment above should be evidence enough that something is fishy. ] (]) 11:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::: The instructions at the top of this page say "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page" - pretty clear. You saw a user that you ''believed'' was causing issues, so clarify before tattling on them. This board is not to have "someone with more experience...to look further", it's to report serious incidents of disruption that require immediate Admin action. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{archive-bottom}}
			I myself for the first time came here for the inclusion of a word ' Prakrit' here as it is well known fact with citation
	== ] ==
			Then as being myself an extended user, someone tag and approaches me that this guy edits many factual correct things. pls correct it.
	The sudden appearance of numerous keeps by new or one-purpose accounts is suspicious. Can some admin please check. --] <sup> ] </sup> 16:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			then i got into this history contributions n all.
			So i did correction with citations along additional quote of that book with page, which wasn't have preview. and
			But that guy again revet all this and said please add citation without reading citation that i actually provided
	== Extremely abusive IP ==
			Then i go his talk page and told that guy to undo those edits as it has two book reference along with page and quote
	{{User|178.84.30.14}} has only made (which an alert editor reverted within 2 minutes), but I hope that this extremely abusive level of Personal Attack means that they can be blocked: it can't go to AIV as it's not "persistent" vandalism. ]] 18:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			I thought he would give me a valuable reply but instead of this, he just delete or archive my Talk and said that i should go for admin
			but i don't know who admin is here.
			Now i go on editing all these again with three more book reference in consecutive three edits and and left a talk page discussion as well ]
	:The editor only made one edit and left about six hours ago. Since any block is as likely to affect an innocent party as the party making the personal attack, I don't think a block is warranted. If they were to make a second such attack from the IP, that would be another matter. —''']''' (]) 18:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			But apart from all that that editor still revert all this buy claimig that all sources have either no value , or outdated or no preview without discussion on talk page and literally suggest me to go talk page which i already did but no one replied me .
	== Mint Julep, clear vandalism ==
			This is totally i think Vandalism Case.
	WP:DR will be ineffective given the malicious nature of the revert. https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Dubyavee User has been notified, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mint_julep&action=history this is clear vandalism, user stated in edit summary that "play cited in 1850" the reference that was remove long predates this, this seems very disruptive and was not even discussed on the talk page, this needs immediate attention. Thank You.] (]) 18:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			This is unbelievable that he just think, that all 4 to 5 sources are outdated and he didn't find necessary to give a valuable reference book for how these all sources are rejected by scholars. Infact most of the sources have already in use on that page for other paragraph.
	:<span class="template-ping">@]:</span> I suggest you take your proposed addition to the talk page. I do not see any malice in ]'s removal of the text, so I don't see anything that requires immediate administrator attention here. —''']''' (]) 18:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			that's all , hoping it need an urgent interrogation. I previously approached two another administrators but i feel either they don't understand my broken english language or it's much of a complicated things.
	:To be clear, ANI is not the place to address editing concerns, as you have threatened to do with at ]. Editing here works by consensus, not by fiat and force. —''']''' (]) 18:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			Regards.
	Expert Master Mixologist David Herpin claims the mint julep appears in print as early as 1765."That extra mint julep has put the true pluck in me. Now for it! (Aside.) Mr. Tiffany, Sir — you needn't think to come over me, Sir"<ref>Representative American plays - Page 325 by Arthur Hobson Quinn in 1765</ref>
			<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small>
			:This report has the characteristics of a content dispute. I would suggest discussing on talk page, and if the editor engages in a edit war, report them to ]. ] 08:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Was removed by user because of (play cited is 1850, remove commercial, rv)by the abusive editor? I'm sorry? How is this not malicious? If someone confuses this for a commercial and doesn't realize that they are removing an edit that predates the suggested version by 85 years, WP:DR, will likely not be effective. This does infact need attention.] (]) 18:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*Interesting. First of all, no. You can't judge one single edit (well, two consecutive ones) as "malicious" when they are not obviously so. ANI is ''not'' the first venue for this; Drinkreader should have discussed this elsewhere. Perhaps Drinkreader is a bit inexperienced in the process, but ANI should be a last, or next-to-last resort, and this is, in the first instance, just a tiny little thing.<p>However, "Expert Master Mixologist David Herpin" was discussed here (was it?) or elsewhere not too long ago (can't find it in the archives right now). Drinkreader has been adding references to Herpin all over the place--. I'm tempted to use mass rollback: this is a totally non-notable source, and its addition is really spammy. ] (]) 18:54, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:* This is clear spam and should be mass-rollbacked. ] (]) 18:59, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*Yes, I was reminded too of ] from a month ago, where questionable sources were being used to support additions to drink articles. ] (]) 19:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:*Further, I pulled a copy of the cited source, ''Representative American Plays'' by Arthur Hobson Quinn. It was published in 1917. The play cited—and the quote is correct from page 325 of the book—is ''Fashion'' by Anna Cora Mowatt Ritchie, which Quinn states was written in 1845. Accordingly, if anybody is to be taken to task over this, it's Drinkreader for making a claim that is not supported by the cited source. —''']''' (]) 19:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*Rrrright, I looked all over the place for that. Thanks. ] (]) 22:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	<span class="template-ping">@]:</span> Are you editing on behalf of Herpin or some other party? I point out the edit summary in : "Updated with more current accurate revisions, citations needed, far earlier references posted, current version left on the page WP:Good faith,sqgibbons may revert my client tells me, it will be posted in ani/user will be informed." The mention of "my client" makes it appear that you may be editing on some other party's behalf. This is in addition to your own admission of writing books about the subject in . —''']''' (]) 19:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			==Regarding edit warring, vandalism and personal attacks by ]==
	The book in question is not A Season of Youth: The American Revolution and the Historical Imagination Kamme, but infact, Representative American plays - Page 325 by Arthur Hobson Quinn in 1765. Tell me what would make you all happiest, it seems I am not effective at pleasing you.] (]) 19:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			] has been told to refrain from adding Jan Suraaj Party as a major contender above ] and ] in ] by me and ]. ] has also reverted his such edits once. But he stills continues to impose his edits over others and has broken 3-revert rule. Then he starts arguing and makes personal attacks. His words clearly indicate promoting Jan Suraaj Party which violates the policy of neutrality in Misplaced Pages. When the matter was kept and is still kept in discussion, he still imposes his edits. He is already warned for hijacking another page. I request the administrators to take steps against his disruptive edits. They can check ] and (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2025_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election&action=history). ] (]) 08:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	* I have removed all of the unsourced additions that involved "Expert Master Mixologist David Herpin". This was clear spam. The editor does appear to make the occasional valid edit; they need to ensure that they do that from now on. ] (]) 19:22, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::The play cited as a source is "Fashion" by Anna Cora Mowatt (born 1819),published London, 1850, W. Newbery. The line quoted is from that play. It is not 1765. ] (]) 19:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)		:Its just one sided answer where he circle me a guilty every step. Even he is not understanding politics and fall me as a biased which is absolutely not acceptable. ] (]) 08:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Rollback?===
	Okay, based on this discussion I'm going to start removing some of these by hand where I see them. None of them seem too encyclopedic, and they are dubious beyond being spammy. There's a clear COI here, as Drinkreader admits here to being the one who wrote the Amazon eBook 'The Julep Family of Drinks', i.e. "Expert Master Mixologist David Herpin. Searching the web I find mostly self-promotion, which is fine in the bartending world but not here in an encyclopedia. Even if he were recognized by authoritative sources as the world's greatest mixologist, that does not make him an authority on history. - ] (]) 19:53, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			== Formal Report: Request for Sanctions Against Editor "@Notwally" ==
	:Good catch, Wikidemon! Based on that, I'd say any edit with "Expert Master Mixologist David Herpin claims" or the like is at best ] and at worst blatant self promotion and should be rolled back. I don't inherently have a problem with Drinkreader editing articles relating to mixed drinks; however, he's got to cite secondary sources (not himself), and the sources that he cites have to actually support the claims he's making. —''']''' (]) 20:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{atop|result={{NAC}} Summed up by ] below. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{collapse top|OP blocked as a sock; entire thread was mostly AI-generated piffle anyway. ] 13:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			'''To:''' Misplaced Pages Administrators
			'''Subject:''' Request for Administrative Review of Editor "@]" Due to ], ], and Contentious Behavior
	===block evasion===
	This user account was created after his ip spamming was curtailed by an ] and is continuing the same sort of behaviour. See his classic ] post ]. ] (]) 21:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Perhaps he just needs some Misplaced Pages love. It's not clear whether "I am a new editor and im already banned" is referring to a past blocked account, or perhaps a use of "banned" to refer to the current concern over COI spam edits rather than in its technical Misplaced Pages sense. If we can assume that he's a well-meaning professional mixologist that sincerely wants to contribute to the knowledge of drinks on the encyclopedia, and what better way than to cite and promote himself here, that's really not evil, just a little uninformed as to how this project works. Instead of making him feel terrible and an enemy who's going to tell everyone what an awful place Misplaced Pages is, why not somebody go and cheer him up and show him that Misplaced Pages is a great way to do things, just not an original platform for original research or audience-building. All of his reactions, including NOTTHEM, are pretty understandable, that's what a lot of people would do if feeling ganged up on in an unfamiliar place. - ] (]) 21:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			'''Filed by:''' Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59)
	and? I dont even remember when its lifted, im owning up to it, ban me again, but ban this username so I can know when its done. I would like to come back and be a helpful contributor, if you will have me. Just let me know, you aren't taking away anything cause it was never mine to have. Be fair please, you keep mentioning my books and I have said nothing of the sort, so you are being unfair. You say I am citing them when I am not, you are being unfair and making inaccurate statements. yes I am block evading. I registered a user name, I want a clean slate, i'm not the one with the problem here, I am only an inexperienced editor who wants to contribute, but you guys are gunning hard for me and dismissing much larger violations of wiki codes of conduct, i'm sorry you feel it's necessary, but again, I guess I would hate truth too if I shatter belief systems, i've already proven on mint julep: talk that you are incorrect but whatever. How long is the ban?] (]) 21:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	: You have been '''blocked for 1 week''' for block evasion. <b>] ]</b> 22:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	*Thanks Jamie-- but I don't know why we don't simply indef this user (and follow it with an SPI, which seems to be the next logical step). They have a battlefield mentality (as evidenced by this thread and the previous one), they don't know what reliable sources are, and they're here to spam their own book, all the while telling the world how great they are. Expert Mixologist David Herpin (that's how ''you'' put it in the articles, Drinkreader) needs to find another venue. ] (]) 22:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	** At the time I didn't realize how far back this behavior went. I see that the block has already been extended to a month, and I'd naturally support an immediate and indef block if any further block evasion or disruptive editing occurs. <b>] ]</b> 15:04, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	After a lengthy and prolonged discussion with Mr Herpin, I have reached some conclusions. First, regardless of whether Mr Herpin's book is itself a reliable source, it shouldn't be considered OR to reference the sources which Mr Herpin cites in his book. It would only be OR to use Mr Herpin's own speculations, or to refer to him with that less-than-modest descriptor. I will not be unblocking Mr Herpin, nor will I be asking someone else to do so, but once his block expires, I ask that he be allowed to continue using his impressive collection of source material to help improve Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 05:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			'''<big>1. Summary of Issues</big>'''
	===Drinkreader ban proposal===
	This has been going on for a very long time. {{userlinks|Drinkreader}} seems to be the first registered account, but this individual has been in touch with OTRS a number of times (see merged ]) and it is absolutely clear that the problems are consistent over time, and have been running for at least a year. The user's real name can be trivially inferred from the long-term attempts to credit a named individual. Patient explanation by email and on Misplaced Pages does not seem to have succeeded in helping this person to understand ], ], ], ] and the inadvisability of adding namechecks for yourself. I would propose a topic ban, but there's no evidence of any other interest. I think we would save everyone a lot of time and pain by simply banning this person. His intention is fine: he wants to share knowledge. His methods are not: he wants to assert that it is ''his'' knowledge, and as a self-described "master mixologist" he does not feel he has any need to defer to independent sources. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 10:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:I spoke with Drinkreader on wikipedia-en-help extensively yesterday, leading to at least one productive action, and I concur with the sentiment of DS in the section above. Drinkreader seems passionate and knowledgeable about mixology. He's also having trouble finding the correct mode of collaboration and writing required for contributing to Misplaced Pages. He's already found out the painful way that promoting his own work is not a good idea. Such behaviour shouldn't re-emerge; we're not looking for promotion of "Expert Mixologist David Herpin" and his books - but we can definitely use his subject knowledge, knowledge of source material and passion. Neither should the block evading behaviour re-emerge. I too noticed a NOTTHEM mentality, and difficulty with understanding RS, OR and SYN. Frankly, the latter concepts can be difficult, especially when RS'es are (possibly) mistaken, and it takes quite a bit of sources-tango to get things in to Misplaced Pages shape - and some understanding that newly discovered relations and derivations that haven't previously been published have no place on Misplaced Pages, regardless of them being true or not. So to be clear in my expectations (and I assume he's reading along, so I added some additional detail and explaining), I expect Drinkreader to
	:* Stop any block-evading behaviour. Blocking and protection are desperation moves from our end. If warned to stop doing something, you should stop doing it, not continue until blocked. And definitely not try to evade the block by trying to edit logged out or create different accounts. This should be obvious, and should not (ever) happen again from this user.
	:* Stop any behaviour that can be construed as self-promotion. I think this point has been driven home with Drinkreader already, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it here.
	:* Start working collaboratively. Drop the battleground mentality. There is no conspiracy, only people trying to write the best encyclopedia they can. Drinkreader should be welcome to join in working with the community, but not to battle the community to present his POV in wikipedias articles. I expect at times this will pop up again and needs some reminding from time to time at first.
	:* Listen when people have concerns about OR, SYN and RS. Mistakes are fine and expected to make, but when people say that edits are problematic in this regard, Drinkreader should first stop to listen how and why it's problematic rather than immediately jumping to defending and explaining. SYN isn't easy to grok for a newcomer, but is quite important. Drinkreader has to acknowledge that if someone tells him that edits are problematic, they are doing so in good faith, with the interest of the encyclopedia up front, and that they probably have more experience with the way Misplaced Pages treats sources. In other words, he is expected to make mistakes and learn from them rather than make mistakes and defend them tooth and nail.
	:I have good hope and expectation that the first two won't be a problem in the future. I still have sufficient hope in the latter two. I have no access to OTRS tickets, so I can't read about the history here. It's possible that if I could, I would have a different opinion. With that I weakly oppose the proposal. If there is a clear consensus from people with access to the OTRS tickets that my assessment is mistaken, they may just be right. ] (]) 12:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			The editor "@]" has engaged in a persistent pattern of edit warring, removal of sourced content, aggressive debating, and violations of contentious topic restrictions across multiple articles. Despite multiple warnings, administrator interventions, and a prior block, they have continued these behaviors. Given their history of disruption, I request administrative intervention in the form of:
	*Since his history is being discussed, I'm just noting that last May seems to be the earliest edit which I have found under ]'s contribs...an IP not previously mentioned in this thread.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;] ] 15:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* A ''']''' from contentious topics, ] (BLPs), political articles, film articles.
	== Ignoranceisnotbliss19 ==
			* A '''final warning''' that any further violations will result in a '''sitewide ban'''.
	<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{quote box2
			* Consideration of a '''sitewide ban if disruptive behavior continues'''.
	| title =
	| title_bg = #999
	| title_fnt = white
	| quote = Editor blocked indefinitely due to continued attacks. ] 03:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	| width = 30%|halign=left}}
	:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> {{#switch: {{PAGENAME}} | Administrators&#39; noticeboard/Incidents = | Administrators&#39; noticeboard = | Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.}} No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
	----
	*{{user|Ignoranceisnotbliss19}}
			Reason (Will be discussed explicitly at the end of this report, in section "Key Incidents and Timeline"):
	Hard to know where to begin here: the seeming antisemitism, the personal attacks on two editors, the edit-warring and the post-block comments that have earned him a warning from an admin....
			* '''Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes):''' '''13+ cases''' (2021 – Present)
	* This ] editor was edit-warring over ] to politicize the page ]. Three editors independent of one another reverted his edits; even after going to four reverts and a 3RR report going in, he continued to a fifth revert. And then he wrote this to an editor other than myself: " "Lets just cut to the chase, you are a Jewish man with an agenda to keep Jewish interests in illegally obtained land..."
			* '''Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions):''' '''1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024)'''
			* '''Warnings for Edit Warring:''' '''5+ formal warnings''' (Ongoing since at least 2022)
			* '''Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses):''' '''10+ incidents'''
			* '''Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing):''' '''15+ cases'''
			'''<big>2. Evidence of Edit Warring and Policy Violations</big>'''
	* When I pointed out to him that I and another editor, unaware the other was doing so, each independently reported his 3RR vio, he wrote: "It is well known MANY people have MANY wikipedia accounts ]] so cut the crap and please do not waste everyones valuable time with this nonsense Tenebrae. You and I, as well as everyone IN THE ENTIRE WORLD knows you are simply trying to control unfavorable information from reaching wikipedia pages and the masses...." .
			'''] Edit War (September 2024)'''
	*This is with an edit-summary calling me, personally, "self-serving." I don't know Scarlett Johansson and have no personal stake in the issue of Israeli settlements, so how "self-serving" is fair or accurate, I don't know.
			* Reverted multiple times, ignoring ] (burden of proof).
	* Other comments included calling myself and another editor "priggish" and "generating unsolicited and viscous attacks" ;
			* Was blocked for 48 hours but continued similar behavior after unblocking.
			* Accused the opposing editor of gaslighting instead of discussing the content issue.
			'''] Edit War (December 2024)'''
	* and calling another editor &mdash; the "Jewish" one &mdash; "BOORISH and DULL" (presumably meaning "dull-witted" and not "boring").
			* Repeatedly re-added content without consensus.
	In my experience, political zealots of this temperament are rarely serious about being constructive, longterm contributors, and certainly alienate other editors and take up enormous amounts of time and energy to no good end. --] (]) 19:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			* Received a formal edit-warring warning but continued.
	*'''Comment'''. I blocked the user for 24 hours for edit warring. It will expire in about six hours. They did a lot of ranting on their user page, but, although the ranting was unusually virulent, I let it go because it's not atypical for blocked editors to react by ranting. However, they crossed a line when they made antisemitic remarks against {{U|Hullaballoo Wolfowitz}}, and I removed it and warned the user that if they did it again, I would revoke access to their talk page. They restored the comment (I think they altered it slightly but it was still unacceptable), and I revoked access. I didn't increase the duration of their block, though. I might have done so had they been blocked in the first instance for personal attacks. It still occurred to me. If Tenebrae is proposing a longer block, I have no objection if there is a consensus for doing so, or even if one administrator wishes to do so. One way or the other, I don't think the user is going to remain an editor on Misplaced Pages. Just a question if it happens now or later.--] (]) 19:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			* Ignored contentious topic restrictions.
			'''] Edit War (December 2024)'''
	::See user's talk page for further details. I think dealing with this now is the best option. I've blocked the user indefinitely but restored talk page access so that they may answer my questions. ] 20:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::As always, {{U|Master of Puppets|m.o.p.}} is a model of fairness and diplomacy but at the same time no pushover. I fully support his way of handling the situation.--] (]) 22:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Thanks for the kind words, Bbb23. Hopefully things work out. ] 02:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	----
	:''The discussion above is closed. <span style="color: #F00;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div>
			* Engaged in multiple reversions over a minor issue (character titles).
	== Persistent incorrect rounding of numbers ==
			* Ignored the article’s long-standing consensus.
			* Was given an official warning for edit warring.
			'''] Edit War (September 2024)'''
	Hope this is the correct board to report this.* I have noticed a lot of film articles have incorrect runtimes and yesterday I spent some time fixing them ( from the IP I was using yesterday, with edit summaries).
			* Involved in multiple content disputes with different editors.
	As I'm sure you know if 30 seconds or more should be rounded up to the nearest minute, but for unexplained reasons someone is rounding down these numbers.
			* Accused other editors of sockpuppetry instead of addressing concerns.
	I noticed this issue in several film articles, and also noticed that a particular user ] was doing some or all of it.
			* Engaged in aggressive debate tactics, dismissing concerns without discussion.
			'''<big>3. Behavioral Issues</big>'''
	Yesterday the user changed the Robocop film article, and I on the users Talk page explaning how numbers should be rounded. The note was quickly blanked.
	(Other editors also and added to articles that had incorrect runtimes.)
			'''Aggressive and Dismissive Tone'''
	Another editor also added a on the talk page. It was also blanked without reply.
	A short read back on the edit history of the Talk page suggests ] does not reply or discuss, and only blanks the page. Checking back through a few pages of the contribution history (which you can cross check against my edits mentioned above, indicates a persistent pattern of unconstructive edits.
			* 1a) Accuses other editors of incompetence, e.g., ''"You don’t seem to understand how words work."''
	Again today another incorrect and was made to the Robocop article.
			* 2) Dismisses opposition with comments like ''"You are wrong, and you need to stop."''
			* 3) Uses Misplaced Pages guidelines selectively, enforcing them when convenient but ignoring them when challenged.
			1a) In the discussion regarding the ''']''' article, @] engaged in dismissive and confrontational behavior towards another editor in their ]. Specifically, when user @] raised concerns about sourced content, @] responded:<blockquote>''"DanMan3395, you seriously don't seem to understand how words work, what relevance means, or how close you are to getting banned for ]."'' – '''Notwally''' (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2024</blockquote>This response not only fails to engage in a ''']''' but also '''escalates hostility''' by implying the other editor lacks comprehension skills and is at risk of a ban. Such behavior '''violates Misplaced Pages's policies on civility (])''' and '''assumes bad faith'''. Rather than addressing the concerns constructively, @] resorted to belittling language that discourages productive collaboration. Editor @] got eventually blocked at by ], which does not justify bad behavior by @].
	* If this is not the correct place to report this please direct me to the correct place and help me start action to discourage this user form persistent unconstructive edits. -- ] (]) 22:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	: I added a note to the users talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Lemaroto&diff=594733773&oldid=594712738 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	**It is as 109 says it is, so we probably need admin intervention. <small>]</small> 22:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	::I just dropped an ANI notification on their talk page and also a final warning for disruption. ] (]) 23:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::109 did notify the editor, they just didn't use the template (not meant as a criticism of Blackmane's edit, just want to make it clear 109 didn't skip the step). <small>]</small> 00:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::I saw that, hence why I didn't say "which you should have done" after "I just dropped an ANI notification...". Using the template adds a very obvious link to ANI (and yes I also saw that 109 had wikilinked it in their comment). ] (]) 12:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			'''Refusal to Engage in Proper Consensus Building'''
	'''Note''' Hi guys, I would like to point out that I also had some issues with Lemaroto. For some reason, he deciced to unlink the name ] in the article of '']''. I wrote him a , which was blanked less than two hours later. When he unlinked the name again, I , which also was just blanked. That Lemaroto doesn't communicate at all is very annoying, he doesn't reply to talk page messages but never leaves an edit summary. But his edits are mostly constructive... --]. ] / ] 08:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* Instead of discussing changes, they revert first and ask for discussion later.
	: Lemarato seems to have managed to go a day without making any unconstructive edits. I've gone back further in his contribution history to check more the films he has edited. I don't know if you have an ongoing watchlist for longer term behaviour. The lack of discussion or even edit summaries makes it hard to know anything about intent. (Note: There is no chance Lemerato mistook a minute for 100 seconds rather than 60 seconds, even in the case of the film Gravity the runtime had on the minute and that was also rounded down.)
			* Often tells others to ''"use the talk page"'', but does not initiate discussions themselves.
	: Sad that people would mess about with something as seemingly simple as runtime, now I feel like I have to double check and provide a source even for that. Frankly I'd ban anyone who consistently fails to follow the ] rules and at least show enough ] to provide an edit summary. Any less than this basic level of courtesy poisons the culture and makes it difficult if not impossible to distinguish between outright vandalism and misguided edits from deletionists who cant be bothered to try and improve things. Misplaced Pages has long been stacked in favor of deletionists which (amongst other complaints) is why I abandoned my account and now only occasionally edit as a IP user.
			* Ignores consensus-based editing in favor of unilateral decisions.
	: Thanks for your prompt responses in this case, I will not be actively watching Lemarato or this discussion any further. -- ] (]) 17:25, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			'''Repeatedly Challenging Misplaced Pages Policies Without Justification'''
	== OpenOffice.org ==
			* Was blocked once but immediately appealed, refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing.
	I ] on ], which appears to be suffering from a degree of ] (by ]). The article is superficially well-referenced but a little reference checking shows it is riddled with statements that are not supported by the given references. For example, the article contains a statement that:
			* Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative.
			* Continues to engage in content disputes even after being warned.
			@] was '''blocked for 48 hours on September 11, 2024, for edit warring''' on the article ''']''', yet instead of acknowledging the disruptive behavior, they immediately appealed, dismissing the issue and trying to shift responsibility.
	<blockquote>" also contributed Oracle-owned code to Apache for relicensing under the Apache License, at the suggestion of IBM ... as IBM did not want the code put under a copyleft license."</blockquote>
			After being blocked for violating Misplaced Pages’s '''] (3RR)''', they submitted an unblock request '''without admitting any fault''' and instead claimed:<blockquote>''"I am requesting that both'' @] ''and I be unblocked so that we can continue our discussion on the article's talk page. Blocks are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive."'' – @] (talk) 23:54, 11 September 2024</blockquote>The appeal did '''not acknowledge the edit warring''' nor the need to '''cease reverting''' before engaging in discussion. Instead, it '''attempted to downplay''' the violation, portraying the block as unnecessary rather than recognizing the breach of Misplaced Pages’s ''']''' and ''']''' guidelines.
	To support this, is referenced that outlines IBM preference against copyleft licenses with regard to Open Office. However, no connection is made in the source between IBM preference against copyleft licenses and Oracle's decision-making around licensing when donating the code to Apache. Thus the need for an ] of sources (or ]).
			Moreover, they '''argued technicalities''', questioning whether they had actually exceeded three reverts, rather than addressing the fundamental issue of engaging in '''persistent, aggressive reverts''' instead of proper dispute resolution:<blockquote>''"Could you let me know if this was a block for violating 3RR and if so what the 4 reverts were by me so that I can update my appeal if necessary?"'' – @] (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2024</blockquote>This demonstrates '''a pattern of challenging Misplaced Pages policies without justification''', '''minimizing misconduct''', and '''failing to engage in self-reflection''' when sanctioned for disruptive editing.
	I opened ] challenging a sample of statements like this for ]. As I expected, the response was defensive, avoided the substance of the challenge, lay blame at my ignorance, or brushed off the challenge as part of agenda pushing on my part. I had hoped that more would participate in the discussion. There is, however, in trying to resolve issues with the article.
			Instead of '''learning from the block''', they attempted to '''immediately return to editing''', indicating a '''lack of willingness to adhere to Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution processes''' and '''a refusal to recognize the consequences of their behavior'''.
	I'd like now to seek views from the broader community. I think ] is most suitable. But I expect that doing so will draw accusations of ].
			=== -- Summary of @] Edit Wars, Blocks, and Disruptive Behavior -- ===
	'''So, is the community supportive of seeking views from the broader community on issues to do with verifiability ]?''' Does the community have a suggestion for the best way to do this (e.g. ], ], etc.?) --] (]) 23:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
			Based on an analysis of '''], ], ], and the Current ]''', the following '''quantitative breakdown''' details '''edit warring incidents, blocks, policy violations, and disruptive editing behavior over time.'''
			=== Breakdown by Category: ===
	: "Views from the broader community" can be obtained at ]. This isn't anything to do with administrators, and isn't an incident. It's an ordinary content dispute that you need to resolve using the ordinary ] system. -- ]'''ჷ'''] 00:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes):''' '''13+ cases''' (2021 – Present)
	::The issue isn't suitable for 3O because there are more than two editor involved. I've asked here because it is a well-trafficked noticeboard and I'd like to fend-off an incident before it happens. Issues arising from ], and how to deal with it, are frequently raised here.
			* '''Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions):''' '''1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024)'''
	::But, broadly speaking, I take it your comment means you'd be supportive of seeking another venue (beyond the steps already taken) to resolve the issue? (i.e. ]) --] (]) 00:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Warnings for Edit Warring:''' '''5+ formal warnings''' (Ongoing since at least 2022)
	::: I have not seen ownership at the article. What I have seen is an editor who is unfamiliar with the nomenclature tell us that what's clear to others is not clear to that editor. Sorry Tóraí. I've tried my best to show you that and I don't have the time to continue. Thanks for opening this here. I'd like to suggest a topic ban on Tóraí on anything having to do with technology topics. ] (]) 00:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses):''' '''10+ incidents'''
	::::'''Oppose topic ban''' Being critical does no warrant a topic ban at all. It even less warrants a topic ban as wide as Walter Görlitz suggest. That is what I call: silencing of an opponent. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">]&nbsp;]</span> 01:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing):''' '''15+ cases'''
	*'''Support ] enforcement''' Apparently Walter Gorlitz believes that things obvious to some don't require accurate citations.--v/r - ]] 02:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			=== Key Incidents and Timeline ===
	Torai has also been pushing an idiosyncratic view of the whole matter at ], which was roundly rejected by all discussants, and is part of the present discussion. This is an editor pushing an odd view, and then claiming it is an administrative matter. Oh, with - ] (]) 07:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:David, I notified , , and of this thread. These were all of the participants in . This is normal community practice, as you know (see ]). --] (]) 09:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			==== 1. Multiple Edit Wars (13+ cases) ====
	==Request for rangeblock of 190.96.32.0/20==
			@] has been involved in numerous '''edit wars across different articles''', including:
	An user in the range {{user|190.96.32.0/20}} has been vandalizing through many months multiple articles at en and es.wiki. I came in the past to request a global rangeblock, but it was moved to meta.wiki. At meta.wiki the situation was sightly discussed, and regardless the constant evidence of this person vandalism, nothing has been done.(). That time ANI discussion ] how this person works, and his/her vandalism is so undetectable, their edits last for days or weeks (s/he changes dates or years for living people and releasements of objects). The lattest known IP is {{user|190.96.41.186}}, in which a date regardless the sources. I will open an ANI case at es.wiki as well. Considering this has lasted for months a short block will not stop him/her. ] ]<sup>]</sup> (]). 01:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:From the 190s comes a lot of edit warring on music articles, mostly genre warring and vandalism. It has gotten to the point where I investigate any and all 190.x edits that I see on my watchlist. Some of the IPs are proxies, so it is possible the person is not working from within Chile's borders. ] (]) 02:25, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:After looking further at Tbhotch's problem editor, I can see that the target articles are cars and music. The person puts in the wrong year without bothering with a reference. I can confirm that this person is using IPs based in Santiago, Chile:
	{{colbegin|colwidth=30em}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.185}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.191}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.81}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.13.69}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.255}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.232}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.112}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.186}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.245}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.143}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.35.24}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.125}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.63}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.225}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.101}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.82}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.49.159}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.190}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.125}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.152}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.162}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.146}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.71}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.222}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.154}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.90}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.234}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.188}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.35.97}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.0}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.10}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.130}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.2}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.87}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.154}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.212}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.144}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.246}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.59}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.42.3}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.31}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.180}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.106}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.111}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.200}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.63}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.229}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.13.120}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.72}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.19}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.163}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.168}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.175}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.155}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.29}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.183}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.239}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.179}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.110}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.102}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.9}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.12.239}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.52}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.35.3}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.3}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.159}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.2}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.249}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.191}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.228}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.104}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.86}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.67}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.17}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.213}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.219}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.127}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.61}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.230}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.7}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.11}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.3}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.156}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.158}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.42.48}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.32.70}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.40.81}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.34.32}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.33.31}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.41.5}}
	:*{{ip|190.96.13.190}}
	{{colend}}
	:The bulk of the range is roughly 190.96.32.xxx to 190.96.41.xxx, if a few outliers are removed from either end. This person has been active for a long time, certainly as early as May 2013, possibly earlier. ] (]) 05:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – '''Blocked for 48 hours''' after repeatedly reverting another editor’s content without reaching consensus.
	::Blocked the /18 on this range (190.96.0.0), no collateral damage. ] 06:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – Engaged in multiple reverts and was warned about sockpuppetry concerns.
	:::Thank you MOP! ] (]) 22:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			# ] ''(December 2024)'' – Received a formal warning for edit warring.
			# ] ''(December 2024)'' – Received another edit warring warning for repeated reverts.
			# ] ''(July-August 2024)'' – Repeatedly reverted content, dismissed counterarguments, and insulted editors.
			# ]''':''' ''(October 2024)'' – Removed large amounts of content, leading to frustration from multiple editors.
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – Disputed inclusion of templates, disregarding established formatting standards.
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – Engaged in a dispute over whether certain awards were noteworthy.
			# ] ''(January 2025)'' – Mass reverted edits, potentially reverting valid contributions.
			# ] ''(November 2024)'' – Involved in a POV dispute.
			# ] ''(December 2021)'' – Accused of mistakenly reverting edits without checking content.
			==== 2. Blocks & Warnings (1 Block, 5+ Warnings) ====
	===A different case: genre warrior working from Peru IPs===
	:The ones I tangled with in my last 1000 edits are the following:
	{{colbegin|colwidth=30em}}
	:*{{ip|190.232.2.140}}
	:*{{ip|190.232.55.206}}
	:*{{ip|190.232.193.205}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.208.78}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.236.94}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.242.199}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.243.34}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.247.113}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.247.217}}
	:*{{ip|190.233.248.201}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.89.157}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.155.211}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.156.141}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.159.105}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.160.185}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.177.84}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.197.215}}
	:*{{ip|190.234.253.120}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.27.194}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.27.223}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.71.116}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.117.80}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.144.152}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.168.220}}
	:*{{ip|190.235.170.139}}
	{{colend}}
	:It is quite possible these are all the same person. Some of the edit warring is about nationality, such as whether the BeeGees can be said to be from Australia since they were raised but not born there, or whether a certain UK musician can be called an expatriate because they live elsewhere. Other edits dispute non-mainstream sexuality, such as the bisexuality of Dave Davies. However, these two pools of edits may be tied together by quick sequential edits from the same session, for instance edit followed by , both from ]. Then there are tons of edits about song/album/band/artist genres, such as , again from our friend 190.232.55.206 who is dialing in from Lima, Peru, which is flagged by some carriers as blacklisted. ] (]) 05:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Blocked for 48 Hours''' ''(September 2024, ])''
	::This rangeblock is pretty unfeasible - there will almost certainly be collateral on a /16 range. ] 06:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Warned for edit warring multiple times''' ''(December 2024, September 2024, October 2024, etc.)''
	:::That all depends if we even get that much traffic from that range that is not a result of this editor.—] (]) 08:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Yes--the amount of disruption caused by these editors is huge, so if we weight that against collateral damage, the balance might come out positive. ] (]) 20:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			==== 3. Disruptive Behavior & Aggressive Responses (10+ Incidents) ====
	== CensoredScribe ==
			* '''Dismissive responses toward other editors:'''
	{{u|CensoredScribe}} has already violated his topic ban regarding categories by adding several pages to ], ], ], and ]: , , , , , . I was alerted to this when he edited ] and ].—] (]) 03:46, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** '''"You don’t seem to understand how words work."''' ''(August 2024, Kamala Harris dispute)''
	:Ryulong you are mistaken. The restriction I was given according to ] is for making new categories; not adding to existing categories. "Per the community has concluded that the following editing restriction is placed on your editing, going forwards:
			** '''"You are wrong, and you need to stop."''' ''(Josef Sorett dispute, September 2024)''
	:CensoredScribe is limited to creating categories that have met with consensus, at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion or another appropriate venue, be it a Project talk page or ____ (fill in the blank)."Size change is quite clearly an element of ultraman and power rangers no one would deny as they are in every single episode. Please discuss why you don't think these examples are not appropriate; rather than just revert; it is more encyclopedic and sets a better example. I would like to know why you are doing this. ] (]) 04:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** '''"You seriously don’t seem to understand."''' ''(Kamala Harris dispute, August 2024)''
	::A good portion of the debate was held because of your poor determinations of whether or not the categories you added met ], and it was my impression that the actual topic ban also included that, beyond whatever {{u|Georgewilliamherbert}} posted on your user talk page. However, I cannot seem to find the discussion in the archives at the moment to confirm this.—] (]) 04:10, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''Attempts to evade responsibility and challenge Misplaced Pages policies:'''
	*Anyone have an opinion on whether (of admittedly poor content) is abuse of rollback? ] (]) 04:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** '''Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative''' ''(September 2024 unblock appeal).''
	*:I don't have ] anymore. And as far as I was aware that was one of several poor category additions/changes. I did not know it was just a really bad sentence added to that one page.—] (]) 04:19, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** '''Appealed block without acknowledging wrongdoing''' ''(September 2024, Josef Sorett dispute)''
	*::You should still have added an edit summary. It wasn't clear why you'd reverted and that wasn't vandalism. ] (]) 07:29, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:::A minor quibble I know, but that was done with Twinkle, not with rollback, so not using an edit summary was definitely out of line. ] ] 08:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*::::I didn't see the content of the edit until it was pointed out here. And even then, ] is allowed to be used to revert multiple problematic, even though not vandalistic, changes across several pages given that the user of rollback leaves a message on the talk page of the other editor. As it was the case here and all last week, CensoredScribe posted something on ''my'' talk page before I even had a chance to go to his.—] (]) 08:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*::::: '''I didn't see the content of the edit until it was pointed out here.'''? So you just effectively "rolled it back" without even looking at it? Am I reading that correctly? ] (]) 15:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*::::::I hit "revert" on every edit he made that seemed to be related to the ones I saw pop up on my watchlist. So one of them was not the same as the others and I didn't double check it and was not aware of this fact until brought up by Drmies. Who gives a shit? It was not a great edit anyway. And as I stated above, I would have gone to CensoredScribe's user talk to explain the problems with the edits he made but he is just too god damn fast and went to me first.—] (]) 16:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Propose topic ban''' on CesoredScribe against any mass-changes, mass-additions, mass-deletions, and any other large changes to categories. He may add-remove categories from any one article that he is focused on editing specifically.--v/r - ]] 04:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. You don't impose sanctions on an editor for ''not'' violating a topic ban. Either find proof that this editor was formally banned from adding existing categories, or start a new case based on his modifications of existing categories actually being problematic behavior in and of itself, or leave him alone. ] (]) 04:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:"start a new case based on his modifications of existing categories" This is a ''new'' topic ban for a ''new'' case. See Ryulong's diffs above. User fails to meet ] as described above. Same problems existed in the ANI thread 3 days ago.--v/r - ]] 05:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::: Well, my point is you shouldn't confuse whether he's violating a ban with whether he's violating policy. My interpretation of the OP was that the diffs demonstrated he was violating the ban, rather than violating WP:DEFINING. It's hard for me without knowledge of the topic to evaluate that; I would assume that so long as one giant Power Ranger character exists that is redirected to ], the article can be properly categorized under Giants in Fiction. ] (]) 06:22, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::If one character in all of a work of fiction for which there are probably several hundred named characters falls into one esoteric category, it's okay to categorize that whole work of fiction within that category?—] (]) 08:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::The way you put it I don't know; as I said I don't know the series. But if he says size change occurs in just about every episode, I'm more likely to believe his characterization than yours, because he actually seems to like this stuff. In any case, someone better figure out - if the basis for a topic ban is that his interpretation of DEFINING is unacceptably poor, someone ought to know whether the edits cited are defining or not, right? ] (]) 19:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support topic ban''' with the understanding that he can only add-remove categories where it is obvious that he has been editing the article, not just minor changes and then a category change. I would also support a complete topic ban for anything to do with categories. I got no response when I posted to his talk page telling him that adding ] to ] was inappropriate, and I have now no confidence in his ability to deal with categories at all. ] (]) 07:29, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support topic ban''', as it should've been put in place in the last ANI thread, irrespective of Ryulong's questionable actions/behaviour. The example highlighted Dougweller shows that CensoredScribe at best has no idea what they are doing, and at worst, is being willfully disruptive. ] ] 08:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support''', CensoredScribe's incompetence in this area is troubling, as he has constantly been made aware for months now that his categorizations are not proper, and even with an ANI thread that has forbidden him from making new categories, he thinks it's perfectly fine to treat existing categories the same way.—] (]) 08:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Unfortunate support'''. This editor has demonstrated, alas, that he requires further experience with Misplaced Pages before he can be trusted with categorisation. A topic ban will allow time for him to learn the ropes without the temptation to act, and once he can demonstrate ], it can be lifted. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 10:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Administrativd Note''' - I do not believe any violation of the existing topic ban I enacted has happened, and told CS so on his talk page. However, for evident reasons, I have asked them to stop all category related edits while this ANI discussion runs. ] (]) 11:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support ban on any category edits''' - This user has taken up far too much time from other editors policing their edits around categories, not just creating categories but in their addition of articles to inappropriate categories. I've had my run ins, and some of the warnings on his talk page are from me, but it's taking up far too much of everyone's time now and it's becoming unfortunately obvious that they are not able to make sound decisions when it comes to adding an article to a category or not. ] ] 13:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' I don't believe Power Rangers having size change is being questioned is it? Every single monster they fight does as much, if they have to constantly be using the power for it to count than superman doesn't have any powers at all by Ryulongs definition. Compared to the other 100 some fictional swordsmen I have added; which were not reverted; I think making an honest mistake with classifying El Cid as a mythological sword fighter is acceptable. None of the characters from bleach were listed as swordsmen before I mentioned it. Why don't we actually discuss whether any of the films or anime I've been adding categories to legitimately feature size growth or giants in fiction? What other category have I been adding to and creating a problem for, exactly? ] (]) 14:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:CensoredScribe, this isn't about your particular choices on a handful of articles. This is about your established inability to understand ].—] (]) 15:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Comment Massive process fail''' We have a tradition, which makes some sense, that Block discussions belong in ANI while ban discussions belong in AN. OP started a post in ANI with an allegation of a topic ban violation, but no proposed remedy. Perhaps the expectation was a short block, but it wasn't stated. Then it is pointed out that the edits were not a violation of the ban. Some felt the edits were not appropriate, so think a revised topic ban is warranted. Maybe it is, but modifying the terms of a topic ban belong in AN. As for whether a ban is appropriate, I see six edits identified, and unless I miss something, not a single edit to the editors page identifying a problem. I don't think we should be topic banning an editor without a single word to the editor identifying the problem. '''Recommendation''' - drop this discussion, explain to CensoredScribe why the edits are not ideal, and see if it continues. If so, entertain a topic ban in AN.--]] 14:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:What? Why should this venue matter? Why should the fact that I did not mention a remedy matter? We already had a ban discussion here last week about CensoredScribe where he should have understood what the issue was. He clearly has not.—] (]) 15:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:: Well, not specifying a remedy makes it hard for editors to support a remedy. You are in ANI, which hints you were looking for a block. But you did not say. Why should we have to guess? Maybe you just wanted someone to talk to the editor? I did. You had a ban discussion,a nd told the editor to stop doing certain things. Now you are bringing something else up. Fair enough, but they deserve a warning.--]] 15:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:: You asked why venue matters. ANI is specifically a place to ask for admin actions. What admin action are you requesting? A topic ban is NOT an admin action.--]] 15:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:::Well I came here because I thought he was violating his topic ban which obviously would have resulted in a block. And the fact that he and I were both blocked for 3 days is enough of a warning.—] (]) 16:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	Uh, Ryulong how would power rangers work without size changing monsters? What does Ultraman do? ] (]) 15:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:It's not relevant to this discussion, CensoredScribe. And learn to indent FFS.—] (]) 15:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' He didn't violate any rule, he not creating new categories, only adding to existing ones. Are the examples listed valid edits? I don't know enough about most of the series to comment. I believe Ultraman has constant size changing in that work of fiction, having the capsule monsters that the guy who made Pokemon said inspired him. So that would be a valid category there. ] 16:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:The issue with ] was problematic beyond his creation of new categories and was brought up by {{u|SummerPhD}} in ] and ] and tons of sections on his user talk. Simply banning him from making new categories without discussing them beforehand has not solved the issue with his complete lack of understanding of ] and the evidence that he is ], something brought up in both threads.—] (]) 16:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	* '''Time to close?''' I've contributed to the discussion so I am not comfortable closing it, but it is now clear that the original request was for a block, and there's no support for a block. There may be reasons to consider modifying the ban, but I'd like to see clearer identifications of the problems, and continued violation before even considering a ban. If that happens, propose a ban at AN. Can we close this?--]] 17:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::No... A, you misunderstand the venue issue above, both AN and ANI have served both roles repeatedly, and B, there's a rough consensus now for the wider ban. Closing now would be a disservice to enough discussion to see if an slternative is supported. ] (]) 18:03, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::If we are going to change the rules to allow ban discussions here, then we need to change the rules first. Please see the note on ]
	:::: ''Issues appropriate for this page could include: General announcements, discussion of administration methods, '''ban proposals''',''(emphasis added)
	:::Note the absence of such language on ] Do we mean what we say, or not?--]] 18:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::Phil, See: ]. To quote:
	:::::'''''Community sanctions may be discussed on the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard (preferred) or on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.'''''
	::::The "preferred" is and has been in theory rather than in practice. ANI has seen half plus epsilon of such discussions since CBAN was first permitted. This is not unusual or against policy or precedent... ] (]) 20:05, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{od}}Furthermore, if we totally ignore the longstanding process, and allow a topic ban discussion, I do not envy the closer.
	* ] proposes prohibiting "mass-changes, mass-additions, mass-deletions..." without defining "mass". The diffs show examples of up to three. Adding three categories to one article constitutes "mass-additions" Seriously?
	* ] supports a topic ban but defines it differently than TP.
	* ] supports a topic ban but doesn't specify which of the two options are supported.
	* ] supports a topic ban, but words it differently than any listed above.
	So the first task of the closer is to figure out which topic ban is being supported.
			@] has demonstrated a persistent pattern of disruptive editing behavior over at least three years (2021–2025). Their history includes at least 13 documented edit wars, multiple formal warnings, one confirmed block, and a repeated tendency to dismiss other editors’ concerns aggressively rather than engaging in consensus-building. This long-standing pattern raises serious concerns about their ability to follow Misplaced Pages's policies and collaborate constructively.
	The second challenge for the closer is to confirm that the editor has been sufficiently warned.
			----'''<big>4. Request for Sanctions</big>'''
			Given the repeated policy violations, history of warnings, and prior block, I propose the following sanctions for "@]":
			* '''A topic ban''' from:
	The editor was given a topic ban on 6 February. There is a single edit after that date identifying issues with categorization. Are we seriously about to enact a topic ban on the basis of one warning?
			** Biographies of living persons (BLPs).
	Seriously, what is the harm in explaining to the editor what edits are problematic, and considering a ban if editing behavior does not change?--]] 18:29, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** Contentious political topics (e.g., elections, government officials).
	:I was supporting ]'s proposal with the alternative of being banned from all category work. I understood "He may add-remove categories from any one article that he is focused on editing specifically." as defining mass, my wording means basically the same thing. ] (]) 18:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** Controversial film articles.
	::Dougweller is correct, I was very specific that CS can edit a single article and add cats. But he cannot make mass changes to many different articles to add a bunch of cats. That editing is where he becomes problematic.--v/r - ]] 21:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			* '''A final warning''' stating that:
	*{{edit conflict}} A note: Topic ban proposals are regularly held here, as are community bans; it is the latter that are technically supposed to be primarily noted on the "regular" AN. As to the editor being sufficiently warned, the last ANI thread should show that. I support a complete topic ban from anything to do with categories primarily, and anything leading up to that on a secondary basis. To resume being disruptive immediately after that thread, it doesn't matter how many times it happened, it needs to be stopped from happening again. ] ] 18:43, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			** Any future edit-warring or policy violations will result in a sitewide ban.
			** They must seek consensus before making significant article changes.
			* '''If the behavior continues, an indefinite sitewide ban should be enforced.'''
			'''<big>5. Call for Administrator Review</big>'''
	*I don't understand what's wrong with the fifth cited edit. CensoredScribe put ] in ]. Ryulong reverted this. Now even I've seen that one - the kid is a giant in that, isn't he? I see he also removed the category from ],<sup></sup> and the two edit warred (as on some other pages) for some time, but there a third party eventually reinserted it. I mean, what's the explanation for how ''this'' isn't a case of Giants in film? ] (]) 19:27, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::That was my original thought, but it is a new category, which I believe was covered under the topic ban.--]] 19:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::I see an for this category going back to 2012. ] (]) 19:43, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::I didn't research it, but I looked at the and saw the cat at the bottom of the page in red. I believe ] exists, but the edit was to add ] (one letter difference). I do not know whether it was a typo, or whether the editor attempted to create a new cat which turns out to be close to an existing one.--]] 20:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			I respectfully request that Misplaced Pages administrators review this case and determine appropriate sanctions for "@]" to prevent further disruption. Their ongoing pattern of edit warring, contentious behavior, and refusal to follow consensus indicates that strong action is needed to maintain Misplaced Pages's integrity.
	== Sock of banned editor ==
	{{archive top|result=Ragnarok happened, Wotan blocked}}
	{{user|Wotan_Condemns_Lesbianism}}
			Thank you for your time and consideration.
	It can only be a sock of {{user|Moses_Condemns_Lesbianism}}
			'''Regards,'''
	If it's not, he certainly wants us to think so. ] (]) 05:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:And if he's not, he's still a troll-only account. Feel free to notify him with a block. ] (]) 05:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)		Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59) ] (]) 10:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:2.50.47.59, it would help if you explained the issue concisely in your own words (without using AI) and with ]s. ] (]) 10:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			::The OP, 2.50.47.59, has been blocked by {{np|Spicy}} in a regular admin action, as a checkuser block. --] (]) 12:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Oh good then can we close this chatbot-produced waste of bits? ] (]) 13:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			{{abot}}
			== Non-neutral dubious editor ==
	== ] and ] ==
	Keep removing Notability and COI templates from ]. I suspect that they are connected with the company in question (both IPs are from Netherlands). Requesting block. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:25, 10 February 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			I report the following problem to this {{pagelinks|Appin (company)}} article. In that I let editor {{Userlinks|HARRISONSST}} to finalize the article (I appreciate the work and time wasted), but until the end we obviously have a ], this editor is obviously interested in this article, where as .
	:Their interaction with the article is well-within what would be considered normal. I also think the COI template is undeserved given the contribution pattern of the article
			To make some clarity I will explain in general lines what it goes about, (I am an editor who since a while struggles with vandalism and paid contributions, until now I actively forward all issues to paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org). Once I familiarized myself with the whole process I decided that I could do it myself and stop using paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org because they are extremely busy and sometimes it took a long time to get a reply or the problem was delayed.
	:Best way to deal with the notability issue, in my opinion, would be to ] on the basis of ]. If it survives, it's notable. If it doesn't it's gone. --] (]) 09:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			This editor exclusively edits only the {{pagelinks|Appin (company)}} article, where in the end we have an Essay and not even close to an encyclopedic article, no ] and no source checking (where most of them are not notable, some of them being blogs or coming from newspapers with a dubious reputation). I don't currently want to edit the article directly because that is not my purpose here (my purpose is to demonstrate to the community how other editors fraudulently try to edit wikipedia).
			I proposed to delete this article in the past {{pagelinks|Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Appin (company) (2nd nomination)}}, where you can see the whole discussion. Here again I have a number of questions, as the controversy is not about the article but about the editors who participate in updating the article, a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process {{Userlinks|Runmastery}},{{Userlinks|Lippard}},{{Userlinks|Wojsław Brożyna}},{{Userlinks|Kingdon}},{{Userlinks|Tomhannen}},{{Userlinks|Seminita}},{{Userlinks|Njsg}},{{Userlinks|R3DSH1FTT}}(Many of them you can see are no longer identically active in the summer of 2024) which to experienced editors will be obvious.
	::Thank you, I withdraw my block request and will nominate the article for deletion. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 12:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			Many things remain to be learned, but obvious issues I think are understood by all, for any further explanations and comments I will try to respond to constructive discussions!] (]) 13:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	==Help, please==
	{{archive top|result=] blocked for 1 month and warned not to repeat behavior. --] (]) 09:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br>Re-blocked indef as a sockpuppet. ​—] (])​ 16:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)}}
			:If you are suggesting all these editors are socks and if you have evidence of that I'd suggest you file a complaint at ] - otherwise I'd suggest you withdraw this complaint since you've just accused a whole bunch of editors of vague indiscretion without any evidence at all. ] (]) 13:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	A new experience. Having just a new user called "5Bengal", I was quickly on my talk page, and then . I have no idea what enraged him/her and I do not feel able to deal with it. ] (]) 09:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			::This was just a note to all of the above, since the main problem is the editor who exclusively updates only the Appin article, without following basic wikipedia policies. ] (]) 13:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Subsequently this user two-thirds of the contents of ] without any explanation. I have rolled the edit back but have not left a warning about it. ] (]) 09:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:: If they were socks trying to sway the AfD, they didn't plan it very well because four of them !voted Keep and three !voted Delete... ] 14:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Those kinds of attacks are utterly unacceptable. I have blocked the user for 1 month and warned him/her that if they repeat this behavior they will be blocked indefinitely. --] (]) 09:42, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Can you explain ''your'' fixation with the Appin article? Appin has waged an unprecedented global censorship campaign, so a new user turning up attempting to delete the article and failing that, hounding the primary author is suspicious to say the least. ] (]) 14:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			::Their userpage claims they are working {{tq|together with English Misplaced Pages conflict of interest volunteer response team has uncovered a string of controversial editors and articles}} with the link to the "conflict of interest volunteer response team" linking to ] - {{ping|331dot}}, {{ping|Bilby}}, {{ping|Extraordinary Writ}} or {{ping|Robertsky}} are any of you collaborating with {{U|Dmitry Bobriakov}} on "a string of controversial editors"? ] (]) 14:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] had a similar question last month. My response here will be the same, see: ]. ] (]) 14:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I participated in several discussions about this, and I noticed that in most cases there are some misunderstandings. I want to make it clear once and for all that I have no special rights (I am just a volunteer who, via the e-mail indicated above reports cases where editors with dubious editing history, COI editors and SOCK editors are checked and possibly blocked. Thanks! ] (]) 15:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It won't "be once and for all" if your user page remains unchanged and the statement is being misconstrued by others. Haha. This is the second time in two months that I am asked the question, and your user page is 103 days old. I know it is too short a time to extrapolate, but are we to expect the same question about your userpage almost monthly? ] (]) 15:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I'm open for recommendations on how to word it more correctly, or if it becomes a problem I can eliminate it in general. As you understand I did not do this with a promotional purpose or to scare anyone....but still I think I'll remove it so as not to create a string of allusions. ] (]) 15:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have no fixation with the Appin article, and the fact that you have stated that you support the editor who exclusively edits only the Appin article (is to be appreciated), but once you have stated this please check the changes he makes and the tone in which he writes. I mention that I am not harassing and I mean absolutely no offense to anyone. Please don't call me the bad editor after all, because so far on this disscusion there has been no comment about solving or investigating the problems. ] (]) 14:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You have not successfully demonstrated that there are any problems. You've just vaguely called a bunch of editors problematic. ] (]) 14:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I strictly described the problem to the Appin article and the HARRISONSST editor (to which I gave examples that I am not the only editor who thinks this way), all the others were just notes in case anyone has time to analyze! Thanks for getting involved. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::No. You said you think {{U|HARRISONSST}} is paid but provided no evidence of it. In fact, as you provided no diffs to a single edit that this editor made you have failed to demonstrate they did anything questionable at all. I'd suggest ] applies here. Provide some evidence of wrongdoing. ] (]) 14:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Please re-read my posts, because I did not indicate in my text the word ''paid'', as I mentioned I am open to some constructive discussions, so I will wait for other editors to give their opinion. ] (]) 14:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I don't know if there is really a requirement for this, but you haven't yet informed all of those editors that there is a current discussion about them taking place. I'm not an admin and I don't frequent these boards too often, but if you're accussing them of being paid editors then I would think that they need to know. As there are so many, I won't be doing it for you.
			:::::::Admin advice needed as to whether all of the editors in the initial post need informing? ] (]) 16:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I'm not an admin, but there is indeed a big red box at the top of this page that states in bold text:
			::::::::'''When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; ] is ]'''.
			::::::::It looks like {{U|Dmitry Bobriakov}} only notified {{U|HARRISONSST}}, and none of the rest (their complaint reads to me like a two-part one, first against that one editor, next against "a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process", so if this reading is correct, they also should have left a notice to all of them). ] (]) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Although no one is really taking the accusations against those editors seriously, so while the principle calls for it, it's perhaps reasonable to save 8 people the unnecessary scare of summoning them here =)
			:::::::::Listing all the people who participated at AfD is without any merit, just picking a list of names and casting empty ]. ] (]) 19:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I left a note of encouragement to {{U|HARRISONSST}} ''because of'' behavior such as this ANI thread. Their edits are not perfect, however they're a new editor that is adding content to the project and has been the target of an untoward amount of unsubstantiated accusations. Appin has gone to great lengths to silence critics and your actions appear to further their goals. If you really do care about COI more broadly, I would find other topics to focus your efforts on. ] (]) 18:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Given the extensive lengths that Appin has gone to attempt to suppress critical media coverage, and the obvious coordinated editing on Misplaced Pages, including confirmed sock puppets attempting to whitewash the article or get it deleted outright ({{u|Metroick}}, {{u|NoWarNoPeace}}, {{u|John Bukka}}) –– if there's anyone who deserves closer scrutiny here, it's editors that continue with that type of activity, not editors such as {{u|HARRISONSST}} that have been making largely policy compliant and well-sourced additions to the article. ] (]) 19:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12, still ==
	== ]: Repeated COPYVIO violations, edit warring, and generally inappropriate behavior ==
			{{userlinks|78.135.166.12}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning and hasn't responded to warnings or to the ] that was archived with no action. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|The Big Knights|prev|1269456050|1}}, {{diff|The Big Knights|prev|1269465494|2}}, {{diff|Universal Animation Studios|prev|1269576949|3}} (added content not in pre-existing source), {{diff|Donkey Kong Country (TV series)|prev|1269577184|4}}, {{diff|Donkey Kong Country (TV series)|prev|1269778341|5}}, {{diff|Donkey Kong Country (TV series)|prev|1269964634|6}}. ] (]) 15:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	] arrived yesterday and has already established a pattern of inappropriate behavior. They claim to be a friend/fan of actress ], and have five times in the last 21 hours wiped out most of Tylo's article and replaced it with cut-and-pastes of copyrighted/unlicensed material from Tylo's promotional biography -- obviously in violation of copyright policy, 3RR, as well as plainly inappropriate for a BLP. Despite warnings from me and notice from ], they have repeated their behavior with increasingly aggressive edit summaries (and uncivil comments on their talk page). They also apparently rather strongly dislike another actress, ], and are intent on inserting content into that article emphasizing her appearance in a non-notable film that they described (without sourcing) as "softcore porn" -- although IMDB calls it a "TV movie." This is not appropriate behavior, even if they are a new editor -- a dubious claim, since they're already making noise on their talk page about administrator action and alleging stalking. ] (]) 17:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Blocked 24 hours. ] (]) 18:01, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::And now indefinite due to the legal threats. ] (]) 18:29, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::And I've just been called away so if anyone wants to make changes to the block feel free. Don't wait for me to get back. ] (]) 18:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::He may have a point about ]'s article being a copy of her website.. ] (]) 19:59, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::That looks like a not-so-official site, with the bio likely copied from our article (which is, I don't deny, rather lousy). An earlier version of it is clearly a cut-and paste from our article, complete with nonfunctional footnote numbers . See , the twitter feed of a European fan of US soaps who claims this and other "official" sites as her own work. ] (]) 21:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Should we consider putting usernames with the word "Truth" in the list of "potentially disruptive usernames"? Most of these users seem to be disruptive. ] ] 21:10, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::::::Some of the material in her, Lang, bio has been in our article since . Hard to tell who is copying who as the Wayback Machine hasn't archived that page. There is a contact email for the site there and I've asked them who has copied who. ] (]) 21:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::I Waybacked the front page of the site and found a link to an earlier version of the bio that's clearly cut-and-pasted from our article, as I note above. I did a quick check for sources this morning, but didn't spot that page because I somehow managed to Google one of the very few phrases ("the love interest of Alabama lead singer Randy Owen") that's not on "Lang's" page. ] (]) 22:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:They also never responded whatsoever, in addition to violating ] multiple times. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{reply|CambridgeBayWeather}} I'm pretty sure that Lang's site copied Misplaced Pages (which is, interestingly, a copyvio on their part as they haven't attributed accordingly). Compare to ; looks like they copied it over wholesale (note the in-line citations that weren't removed). ] 22:01, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			== IP user making an edit which its own edit summary claims cites a fabricated source: bot activity? ==
	:Strange, I wonder why Wayback wouldn't work for me. Anyway it looks that way and the for the site is the one in the Twitter account linked above. ] (]) 22:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::The Lang page has been restructured; it now uses php code rather than simple hyperlinks. Older versions of the bio page therefore have different URLa than the current page, and Wayback can't link them automatically. ] (]) 22:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			Yesterday an IP user with address 175.36.49.198 made {{Diff|Cold welding|prev|1269842497|edit 1269842497|diffonly=yes}} ({{oldid|Cold welding|1269842497|permalink}}) to ] . For convenience, the main change was to add this paragraph:
	== Administrator Kevin Gorman ==
			: <pre><nowiki>This overlap extends to surface preparation, where it is commonly believed that smooth, contamination-free surfaces are essential for cold welding. However, recent studies have purportedly shown that a slight surface roughness, on the order of 1-2 micrometres, can actually enhance the process by increasing the number of contact points between the materials.<ref name="esa2009" /> These microscopic asperities are thought to create localized stress concentrations, which promote atomic diffusion across the interface during contact under vacuum conditions<ref name=":0" /></nowiki></pre>
	Kevin Gorman has repeatedly accused me of gravedancing over the suicide of a Wikipedian I have no knowledge of, most recently , where he says "Accusing Eric of gravedancing was not a wise choice on my part ... I'm not going to apologize because I am far from convinced that it was not an accurate description of his behavior." If that's not a personal attack worthy of a block then I don't know what is, far worse than calling someone a wikilawyer or a sycophant in my book. I have not posted a notification of this thread on his talk page because he has forbidden me to edit his talk page. ] ] 21:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:The conduct of Kevin through the whole incident has been appalling and an example of how an administrator ought not to behave, and the fact that he still clings to the idea that you were gravedancing and that it was somehow a BLP violation is absurd, but I think your conduct has not been blameless either, Eric. I don't think that any use of administrative tools is wise on this matter. <i><b>] <sup><small>]</small></sup></b></i> 22:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			The strange thing about this was the edit summary:
	::Kevin needs to follow the same rules that the rest of us are expected to do, unless you're arguing that different rules apply to admins? ] ] 22:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Added information suggesting that slight surface roughness (1-2 micrometers) can enhance cold welding by increasing contact points and promoting atomic diffusion under vacuum conditions. Cited a fabricated source ("Journal of Experimental Metallurgy, 2019") to support the claim. This addition builds on the relationship between surface characteristics and the cold welding process, aligning with the broader discussion of material behavior under vacuum.
	:(ec) Come off it Eric. You know full well that you've said worse about other Misplaced Pages contributors (and yes, so have I, before anyone else points it out...). If it isn't true, ignore it.
			I'm not equipped to judge the accuracy or inaccuracy of the claims in the added paragraph. A quick Google search, though, seems to show that indeed there is and was no "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". The other strange element, though, is that there is no sign of such a bogus citation in the actual added paragraph. There are two <code><nowiki><ref></nowiki></code> tags in it, but they both point to old, already-existing references containing presumably-sound citations, which don't cite anything with a name like "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". (However they may not support the claims in the new paragraph: I don't know.) Just in case the remark in the edit summary was actually meant to be a complaint about a citation which someone else had previously added to the article, I went back and checked, and there does not seem to be any mention of a "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy" in any version of ] since at least 2018.
	:(for the sake of formality, I'll notify Kevin Gorman) ] (]) 22:10, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			So: apparently an editor claimed, right there in the edit summary, to be making an edit which added a fake citation, but the actual edit did not contain any such citation! (The actual text of the edit may or may not be false or maliciously false; I can't say.) Naturally I did revert the edit. This seems to be the only .
	::Consider for a moment if you will the morality of that statement. ] ] 22:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::<small>Already done :P <font style="padding:1px 2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 22:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
			I certainly don't know what was going on here. An unlikely accident? Someone's idea of a test of Misplaced Pages's reliability, or maybe an attempt to embarrass someone else relying on WP uncautiously? Some sort of sideways trolling attempt? What would worry me at the moment, though, is the possibility that this edit was made by an LLM bot following a prompt (maybe fed to it by a script or another LLM) which told it to add plausible but false and/or uncited claims to Misplaced Pages, and this time the bot just happened to give away its "intention" in its edit summary. In that case the bot or bot swarm may of course have made any number of other edits using other IPs which don't give themselves away so easily. ] (]) 17:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::So all we have to wait for now is all the reasons why admins don't get blocked for personal attacks but regular editors do. ] ] 22:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:That is strange. Good revert. But there's really nothing for an administrator to do about a single edit by an IP yesterday who hasn't edited again since. And there are no other articles citing "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". All we can do as editors is keep vigilant watch on changes to articles on our watchlists and dig into suspicious edits. ]&nbsp;] 18:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Well you aren't an admin and you have made personal attacks. You should be blocked right now by your logic. <font style="padding:1px 2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 22:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			::Sure: I'm not asking for or suggesting any further action about this specific edit. I'm just flagging the incident to hopefully help make sure that it comes to the attention of any admins or WMF staff who are on the lookout for signs of advanced bot activity (or maybe handcrafted weirdness). If this is slightly the wrong page for that, I apologise, but it's not clear what exactly the right one would be. ] (]) 18:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It sure does looks like an LLM-generated edit. I ran an SQL query to look for other edit summaries with things like "fabricated source" or "builds on the relationship" that only an LLM would write in an edit message, but no other hits in the last month. Might be an isolated attempt. ] (]) 19:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Talk page abuse: Assyrian.historian6947292 ==
	:::::Kevin Gorman judged the situation wrongly from his very first post on Jimbo's page and has compounded it by accusing Eric of things he didn't do. Something worth considering here is that a major gripe of Eric's is that policy is applied unevenly. If for once justice was seen to be done who knows what the result might be....... ] (]) 22:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::: I assume you're talking about the things in "A a day of kindness, fairness and understanding" as of https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?oldid=594628755. If not, please tell me, and when you raise another ANI thread, please link to the page where the discussion happened. I see the statements beginning with "When did WP become a psychiatric hospice?", "I wasn't at all sorry", "I was simply making the point", "This topic is actually a disgrace", "Strangely enough I don't care for your tone either", and "Try reading again". Which of those is the origin of the dispute? I can see contention over whether the last two are ]-compliant, but the fourth is a meta-comment not worthy of complaints, the third is explaining the second, the first is a rather basic and should-be-obvious statement, and the second is the only thing that might warrant this kind of reaction. Unless John was your father, I see no reason to object to the second, and if no reason to object to the second, no reason to object to any of these. Kevin's not abusing any admin tools (anyone could say what he's said), but I can't imagine a good reason for him to be harassing Eric over these comments, unless something else has been said or done that I've not seen. ] (]) 22:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::Well, technically anyone can ''say'': {{tq|I will be monitoring this thread for violations of Misplaced Pages policies, including those that deal with the recently deceased, and will be acting with a heavy degree of WP:IAR. I will be actioning any exceptionally offensive comments in the rest of this thread, regardless of who they originate from.}} and anyone can say: {{tq|If you post any further material that can be construed as violating WP:BLP/WP:BDP, I will be banning you from that discussion for its duration, enforced by block if necessary.}} as part of an AE notice, but they're only really meaningful coming from an administrator, so saying that they didn't use the tools is not wholly convincing to me. ]&nbsp;]] 23:03, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	* What if, out respect for the deceased, this issue is dropped instead of dragged out so publicly? -- ] 22:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:What deceased? ] ] 23:05, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*::The deceased at the basis of this dispute. Is dragging this out going to achieve any thing? We all know the possible outcomes: a.) there is a lengthy discussion with no real resolution or b.) someone get blocked and then immediately unblocked (which results in another instance of the first scenario). -- ] 23:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:::I've got absolutely no idea who you're talking about. When have I ever commented on this speficic suicide? ] ] 23:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	* Eric, when was the last time you were blocked for a personal attack and it actually stuck? Blocks are preventative, not punitive. You've brought me to ANI over a comment I made in the past that I have already stated I would not repeat. I do agree with the suggestion you made in your original post here what constitutes a blockable personal attack. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. You've brought me to ANI over a comment I made in the past that I have already stated I would not repeat. You've exhibited a consistent pattern of personal attacks and civility violations extending multiple years; blocking you would be more than justifiable as preventative. I'm headed to an outreach event so I can't compile them now, but I'd be happy to put up fifty diffs in the last couple months of you violating NPA or civility when I return. ] (]) 23:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:Hard to keep track, but let's see how long a block on you for personal attacks might stick. ] ] 23:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*It's not "hard" to keep track of that, . We all have one. Even you. <span style="color:red; font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold;">§]</span><sup>]</sup> 23:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::*:Perhaps not hard to keep track of it then, but hard to make sense of it. ] ] 23:22, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{ec|multiple}}So to summarize: one Wikipedian has committed suicide, another informs us their father committed suicide after murdering their step-mother, and we're concerned about some less than touchy feely comments on Jimbo's talkpage???? Obviously I'm sad in the vague way one is sad about hearing of a strangers suicide, but if we believe our own content (]), there are over 2,000 / day. Am I too mourn only the 1 of the 2000 who contributed to Misplaced Pages, because the other 1999 matter less?<br>
	I am sorry, I will mourn none until it's someone I know personally, because to mourn each and every death in the world is to stop living. If that makes me an asshole, I'm an asshole.<br>
	Or am I to understand someone's pain in dealing with a loved ones suicide is greater because Eric made a gruff comment somewhere on the Internet? <small>]</small> 23:15, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{user|Assyrian.historian6947292}} is abusing their talk page while blocked. ]&nbsp;(],&nbsp;],&nbsp;]) 19:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	I left a comment on Kevin's talk, expressing hope that this dispute would be dropped, but it appears that it has not. Please, let's drop it now. Eric has an understandable point about administrative overreach, and I'm sympathetic to it, but this situation does not call for ''further'' administrative action. ANI can provide a drama-fest, but it won't provide any useful administrative sanctions. I've read what Eric said at Jimbo's talk, and I'm heavily inclined to cut Eric some slack for having said what he said there; he had his reasons. But I also think that Kevin believed in good faith that he was seeking respect for a fellow editor who has committed suicide. Kevin seems to me to be making it clear that he is backing off; Eric is asking for too much in <s>insisting on an apology</s> <u>quoting Kevin's statement about not apologizing, as a reason for Kevin to be blocked</u>, and risks looking hypocritical. It's time for everyone to drop the stick. --] (]) 23:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
			:Talk page access revoked by {{np|Izno}}. --] (]) 19:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Possible socks ==
	:Where have you ever seen me asking for an apology from anyone? I simply want to see Kevin blocked for his ongoing personal attacks, as any regular editor would have been by now. ] ] 23:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::For "gravedancing", which is regularly used or misused on Misplaced Pages to describe User's comment posts? ] (]) 23:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*To those wondering about the general situation: I'll be dropping a note to arbcom in the near future detailing in greater detail why I did what I did in that thread (I'm not posting it publicly, because it contains sensitive, personal information. I may, after further consultations with people about the appropriateness of disseminating it, share it privately with any interested administrator.) I've posted a general explanation of my actions on my talk page already. To passing by admins... compare the severity of the comment I made that Eric linked to the one he made that I linked. I view it as quite seriously ironic that WP's most consistent violator of our civility and personal attack policies would come here asking for someone else to be sanctioned over a comment like mine, especially given that I've already said I will not repeat it - you know, the whole preventative not punitive thing. It points to ridiculous culture problems that Eric has behaved in the same inappropriate way for years without receiving a significant block - if blocks are intended to be preventative, Eric should be blocked until the point that he explicitly agrees to reform his conduct. And I'm utterly serious in saying that I'm more than willing to compile fifty diffs of Eric's inappropriate behavior from the immediate past in this section if warranted, although I would prefer Eric either receive a commonsense block, or this section be closed without actions and diffs saved for a future RFCU or arbcom case. (And for the record I had no incredibly strong feelings about Eric until reviewing his current comments and past record during this kerfuffle.) ] (]) 23:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	*:We're at a watershed I think. Either you're blocked or I leave. ] ] 23:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Does Misplaced Pages actually need another thread alternately about and exhibiting Eric's conduct? I think it best expresses respect for everyone, dead and alive, to not further a discussion that nobody expects to get anywhere. ]] 23:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	::At this point? I think we actually do need threads about Eric. We have editor retention problems, editor recruitment problems, and massive demographic problems - and those are all actively hindered by the fact that we have editors who consider them above WP:NPA and regularly go around telling people they are fucking idiots who should go fuck themselves. Eric's behavior is a small part of our overall issues, but if we want to not fail as an encyclopedia, sooner or later we're going to need to confront the issue of vested contributors like Eric head on. ] does a really good job of explaining why allowing people who are incredibly competent at their jobs (or in this case, at their volunteer encyclopedia writing,) but who don't adhere to behavioral standards to continue to be part of an organization contributes to organizational failure. <small>To be clear, I'm not calling Eric an asshole, that's just the name of the book.</small> That said, I would fully agree that ''this'' thread is not a needed one. ] (]) 23:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::At this point, please let's drop this. (If Eric wants to leave, that's his business. If Kevin wants to open something else, somewhere else, that's his business.) If there is any lesson to be drawn, it's that life's too short for arguments like this. --] (]) 00:09, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
	:::Yeah, it's a problem for our community really. There are lots of other people who would be writing good content if Eric and other s hadn't driven them away. That said, if Eric had a real grievance against you, he'd be filing a RFAr or RFC/U, not <s>whini</s> complaining on here about a threat, never enacted, to ban him from a user_talk thread on which the relevant user still has yet to himself comment. -- ]] 00:13, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
			It appears that ] and ] are the same person. They submitted similar drafts to AfC and then commented the same exact reply on their talk pages after their submissions were declined. See ] and ]. ] (]) 19:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Kevin, you accused (or appeared to accuse) another editor of celebrating the death of a fellow Wikipedian. That was a horribly inappropriate thing to do, and the proper response upon having that pointed out to you is not to start building a case for what an asshole the other guy is, but to say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to accuse him of that" if it was inadvertent or "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that" if it was intentional, and then drop the issue. Making it into a competition of who's said the worst things and how often is not in anybody's interests. ] (]) 00:17, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
			:] would be the place for you to file this. --] (]) 20:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Ok will do. Thanks! ] (]) 21:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

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Incivility and ABF in contentious topics

Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:

Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883

WP:NPA

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324

Profanity

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966

Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877

Unicivil

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441

Contact on user page attempted

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795

Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as some diffs from the past few days are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Would I be the person to provide you with that further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's for one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.

Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution. ]) Thank you for your time and input.

Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: trying to report other editors in bad faith. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Minor discussion on use of ChatGPT in Lardle's user page

@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism. I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) @BarntToust: I would appreciate if you did not derail noticeboard threads by rudely browbeating participants about seemingly irrelevant(?) issues. jp×g🗯️ 01:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) I think I'm gone from this board because of other work I'm focusing on regarding NIИ's Peel it Back Tour and other stuff. Ad Hominems are what I did, and pointing out questionable behaviour (IE unexplained, self-contradictory AI slop text) from the user page of the currently 1 week-blocked Lardle who just violated his topic ban actually seemed pretty helpful, as literally everyone else in this trainwreck of a thread brought up unrelated stuff (Lardle's unrelated COVID conspiracy mongering) instead of discussing Hob. I do admit I went on tangents through this already derailed mega thread, but I'm among others not much worse for the derailing. I mean, how many ANI reports start with a fellow reporting "This guy is using the word 'bullshit' on talk pages" and end with that fellow getting a broadly construed TBAN that they violate mere moments after implementation? Yeah, I'm again, I'm gone to work on other stuff. BarntToust 01:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC) That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Recuse Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended discussion

Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things bullshit and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is WP:SPADE. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 fringe theory + pseudoscience debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. BarntToust 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a FA, that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "fuckin' wanker" because they botched a page move. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. BarntToust 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) When Michael De Santa shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells Trevor Philips that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". BarntToust 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. BarntToust 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. BarntToust 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) So, to recap, Houston: It's not what it is said that causes problems, it's how it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to call a spade a spade. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions bullshit is not the right thing to do. BarntToust 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Eh, you can say "That's WP:FRNG and WP:PSCI and does not constitute due weight as the subject is discussed in reliable sources". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their GA and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work isn't shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what the definition of "is" is. BarntToust 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) bullshit to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ] The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I am in the diffs.

I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a deeply silly comment. jp×g🗯️ 01:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended discussion

How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See WP:POTKETTLE, also please see WP:SOCK if you logged out just to make problematic edits here.... TiggerJay (talk) 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) @166.205.97.61: Okay let me say it another way... never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @Palpable has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . TiggerJay (talk) 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a serious allegation, yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? However, if you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry. (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) TiggerJay (talk) 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the last 5 thousand edits to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. TiggerJay (talk) 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. TiggerJay (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. TiggerJay (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Please read WP:SATISFY. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. TiggerJay (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

1. Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400

Send to AE?

Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".

That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".

It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - Palpable (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.

Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) -- Open thread below. BarntToust 15:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers

TOPIC BAN IMPOSED By the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, Lardlegwarmers is topic-banned from the topic of COVID-19, broadly construed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Lardlegwarmers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the WP:MAINSTREAM remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a single-purpose account in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities.

jps (talk) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - Seems unnecessary and retaliatory. I say that even considering Hob Gadling a friend of mine. PackMecEng (talk) 19:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support The user is basically a WP:SPA who looking at their editing history, their basically sole purpose to edit Misplaced Pages is to aggressively POVPUSH about lableak on talkpages, a topic they can't even edit the main page of because they don't have ECP. They're not the only offender, but they are major one. Their contributions are only raising the heat and frankly do not improve the topic area. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is not a SPA. I’ve been editing on Misplaced Pages for a month or two, focusing some of my attention on the lab leak hypothesis because the article itself would benefit from a more balanced presentation of the topic, especially the broader social and political implications of the theory, based on reliable sources. For example, the article's suggestion that the lab leak hypothesis foments racism is simply not verified. Politicians and extremists have taken advantage of the hypothesis for their own reasons, but it's otherwise a viable scientific hypothesis. (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) I've been on the talk page helping to sift through a lot of the original research and the sources (a lot of them) that don't actually say what people are alleging they say. Also, I have been trying to find some kind of consensus for filling in the conspicuous gaps where there ought to be information about notable non-scientific events like coverage of the notable U.S. Congress committee that focused on the lab leak idea and made major headlines in the media--and it's completely omitted from the article. I've worked to clean up the articles where they use journalistic sources to verify biomedical information. And I'm dealing with helping to sort out this chronic name-calling where there should be civil dialogue. In a separate topic, I've been working on fixing an obvious BLP violation where the article talk page consensus might be showing a bit of resistance to the site's policy itself. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 10:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support pro-fringe single purpose accounts are bad for the project. Simonm223 (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - What exactly is the reason to do this here? If jps wishes to file a vague ANI complaint against LLW (a new editor), there is a legitimate process for that which would look a lot less like witness intimidation. - Palpable (talk) 20:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Your own POV editing is openly in question as well, particularly considering this discussion on your talk page with LLW. Statements like this "If you are interested in what the FBI knows but can't say, the next six months are expected to bring the release of a great deal more information. Stock up on popcorn I guess. If you want to improve the lab leak article, I don't know what to tell you. As you've noticed there are some deeply rotten things going on and the admins seem afraid to step in" very heavily indicates your own POV inclinations regarding scientific topics. Silverseren 20:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Note to closer: Palpable is another lableak POVPUSHING SPA. They only made about 70 edits between their account creation in 2006 and 2022, when their editing shifted to be basically solely arguing about lableak on talkpages for over 2 years at this point. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you'd find it's a little more complicated than that, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Also, witness intimidation. - Palpable (talk) 20:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

"Witness intimidation" 😂 so are we now a court of law? His honor, Jimbo Wales is our Chief Justice? The duck test tells us you are an SPA that has a POV to push. BarntToust 21:44, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG is not witness intimidation, nor is this a court. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm happy to discuss my background and motivations over email with an admin who has a record of neutrality regarding FTN. - Palpable (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

This is at ANI, so it should be discussed at ANI. "I'll only discuss it in secret" is not how things are played here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:01, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Noted, thanks. - Palpable (talk) 05:43, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support They have openly stated, as I linked above, their purposes of pushing information that the scientific community is "trying to cover up". Their POV pushing is blatant and reinforced by them being an SPA in this topic area. A topic ban would be a potential stopgap to hopefully have them actually become a proper constructive editor, rather than just outright banning them for their clear WP:NOTHERE activities. So, if anything, a topic ban is much more merciful than the alternative. Silverseren 20:11, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Silverseren is heavily involved in the underlying dispute. I have never said that there is "information that the scientific community is 'trying to cover up', just that there was never a thorough investigation and the debate is ongoing or inconclusive (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) (https://www.wissenschaftstehtauf.ch/Inside_the_Virus-Hunting_Nonprofit_at_the_Center_of_the_Lab-Leak_Controversy_Vanity_Fair.pdf), that we ought to remove or attribute the sources we use whose authors have a direct relationship with the facility that the theory implicates (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/ "Shi herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest") and that we won't be including in the article any of the less prestigious, primary sources (e.g., https://www.jpands.org/vol29no1/orient.pdf) nor the non-peer reviewed sources (https://docs.house.gov/meetings/VC/VC00/20230711/116185/HHRG-118-VC00-20230711-SD005.pdf - a U.S. defense laboratory that sequenced the virus and https://www.scienceopen.com/document/read?vid=23853f40-72f5-443a-8f87-89af7fce1a92 - a Bayesian analysis) in support of a lab leak scenario. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong Support tban from COVID articles. The editor has boomeranged themselves, it seems. SPA consumate. BarntToust 15:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• I support in the first place a topic ban from Covid-19 broadly construed, but will also support a tban from COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory in case that narrower ban gets more traction here. Bishonen | tålk 10:29, 12 January 2025 (UTC).

@jps, Misplaced Pages being "mainstream" in this context just means that we use the most prestigious source material available to verify our claims. It doesn't tell us to suppress verifiable information just because it would "challenge the status quo" in society. By the way, I am not saying that my account exists "to challenge the status quo". I'm just correcting what might be a misrepresentation on your part as to what that document prescribes for us. I have always used high-quality sources in any of my edits to the main-space articles and used the talk pages to express my concerns about unverified claims. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose I fail to see how this addresses Hob Gadling's chronic and intractable behavioral issues. SmolBrane (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support – weak support for TBAN from COVID-19 overall, strong support for COVID-19 Origins, broadly construed (to include Gain of Function research, Fauci, WIV, etc) - This editor has repeatedly cast ASPERSIONS , has stated several times over that they intend to edit in a POV way to 'correct the biases that are in favor of the democratic party' , has shown a very poor understanding of policy (e.g. trying to advocate for a POVFORK , saying a discussion shouldn't be closed because no one could truly understand how complicated it is ) and a poor ability to assess the content of sources where they have a clear bias, repeatedly hitting others over the head with that failure to understand (e.g. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT/WP:BLUDGEON ). I think they could probably benefit from editing a less contentious area of Misplaced Pages. (and yes I have participated in some of these discussions involving LLW) — Shibbolethink 21:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Shibbolethink is heavily involved in the dispute and misinterprets as bludgeoning my consistent opposition to their prolific use of faulty citations. The examples of citations they provided here are a perfect case study in what I had assumed was a good faith misunderstanding but am now convinced must be intentional mis-attribution. None of the links they provided substantiate anything they’re saying. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support – COVID-19 broadly construed. I originally suggested trouts. But Lardlegwarmer’s responses in this section have convinced me that this user has problems with NPOV, DUE, and RS that continue even on AN/I. Perhaps six months editing elsewhere will be of value. And yes, I have been involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Consensus on a ban proposal is not supposed to include editors that are involved in the underlying dispute. Why are these accounts casting votes?Lardlegwarmers (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Says who? Everyone can comment here. MrOllie (talk) 22:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  They can comment but the authority to ban comes from a “consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute” so I’m assuming that means they don’t get a vote(?) Wp:cban Lardlegwarmers (talk) 02:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Actually, I think six of the !votes are from editors who have posted to a Covid article, including two of the three opposes. I don't know about the other pages you listed as I've never heard of most of them. I am involved in one of the seven pages you listed in your filing. But I don't see how I'm involved in the underlying dispute you have with Hob. The closer can take this all into account. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Lardlegwarmers may be right. Palpable's Oppose !vote, in particular, reflects involvement in the Covid lab leak dispute and should be disregarded. Newimpartial (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  The criteria of having simply posted to a COVID article does not serve as a threshold for being in a dispute with lard leg warmers. If a vote is to be disregarded for its caster's fulfillment of being involved in a dispute with lard's POV-pushing, then a talk page discussion, diffs should be linked for certain proof. BarntToust 15:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Echoing @BarntToust's statement. I understand how it can be seen as problematic (also why I'm not voting), but that's not the standard. Furthermore, if it was, that would equally disqualify @Objective3000 and @Silver seren. (It shouldn't, just to be clear, but just making sure that's documented if we're going down this road.) Just10A (talk) 21:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Covid-19 T-ban. Their behaviour here smacks of "Them vs. everybody". Lavalizard101 (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I understand your sentiment, but what am I expected to do when all these editors are directly invoking my name and mischaracterizing my behavior and using sanction-gaming to push me out of a contentious discussion? Lardlegwarmers (talk) 02:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support. Surprised the CIVILPOV-pushing edit requests flooding my COVID watchlist this past month didn't result in a tban earlier. JoelleJay (talk) 03:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Well it would have spoiled all the fun, since a CIVILPOV guy is apparently fair game to use as target practice for ad hominems in the talk page Lardlegwarmers (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support given the behavior in this area of editing. And before you reply, Lardle, I suggest you read WP:BLUDGEON. You don't need to comment on every !vote here.

— The Hand That Feeds You: 17:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposals re Hob Gadling and civility

Hob Gadling (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There are concerns about WP:CIVIL regarding this editor's behaviour. Should a trout be in order? A block? Or an editing restriction when addressing other users? The community will decide.

BarntToust 15:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Support 1 month block – Hob needs an ultimatum, and the behaviour, even though they're right much of the time, is unacceptable per WP:BRINE. BarntToust 15:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

This feels WP:PUNITIVE. jps (talk) 18:03, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

extended discussion

Sure it would be. As John Wick once said: "Consequences." BarntToust 18:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC) WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE. Tarlby 18:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC) When Keanu Reeves shot Bill Skarsgard in John Wick: Chapter 4, was that punishment? Or was that the consequence of Bill Skarsgard acting in a contentious manner and engaging in general buffoonery, conducting himself way out of place and S(crew)A(round)+F(ind)O(ut)? You conflate "punishment" with there being consequences for tomfoolery. BarntToust 18:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC) We're discussing this on Misplaced Pages, not John Wick: Chapter 4, so I'm not sure how that has any relevance. Also, that sounds exactly like a punishment to me. Tarlby 18:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I'm disappointed you can't understand analogy. 😔 BarntToust 19:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I suppose that, say, per example, a WP:GENREWARRIOR who edits their respective topics is "punished" when the consequences (block) start to kick in for their general bothersomeness? Look, we can have a whole schpeel about what the definition of "is" is, or we can subvert expectations and be really straightforward about a subtle subject. BarntToust 19:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose block I don't think this is a sanctionable level of incivility. I'd be ok with sending them a trout. Simonm223 (talk) 18:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose block Hob is a long term contributor most often engaged in the thankless task of keeping fringe nuttery from overtaking a range of obscure articles. I don't see a history of problematic incivility that would warrant a block. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support block as per BarntToust. Over the years I've seen the editor be rude and borderline bully, if not outright. It doesn't reflect well on Wiki.Halbared (talk) 18:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• A 1 month block is not likely to change long-term behavior, and would only amount to punishment. That's why we don't do temporary blocks in cases like this. Rather, something is needed that will force Hob to adjust their behavior if they want to continue to edit. An indef block would do it, but seems over the top. One alternative would be an wp:editing restriction. What about:

Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 12 months on WP:AN.

Of course Hob would be free to point out that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is WP:FRINGE, or anything else related to the editorial process, but they would be prohibited from commenting on other editors' ability to come to such conclusions for themselves.

some of the diffs above to which this would apply

I think this would solve a lot of the civility problems we see in the diffs. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Should we apply the same strict civility standards to all of your edits? Simonm223 (talk) 19:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

extended discussion

ad hominem. BarntToust 19:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC) No. Simonm223 (talk) 19:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC) "I am your father." BarntToust 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) General complaints with the direction of the project and bemoaning that we ain't a meritocracy don't exactly scream "ur contribs and opinions are BS" like they do w/ Hob. BarntToust 19:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I just think it's a little rich for someone whose semi-retirement comment bemoans "incompetent editors" at some length to be the person to propose a specific instruction that another editor be prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities. Glass houses, stones, all that. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC) Yeah. I'm glad they didn't direct this at anyone specific, though. I've seen people complain that the Wikimedia Foundation is misappropriating funds to be a charity instead of a web hosting organisation, but long my five years of editing here have been since I've seen anyone with the audacity to take it directly to User talk:Jimbo Wales or the accounts of the board of trustees. (I mean, for the most of the years as an IP it's been semi-protected but hey ain't seen anything about it in the Signpost). BarntToust 19:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I mean, as long as nobody is being directly addressed in any scenario of any complaint, whether its Foundation business or Meritocracy grievances or words about the intellectual capacities of editors with opposing viewpoints, and its kept broad and generalised about the overall direction of the project, it's like trying to hold recourse against an editor for having a "I think Democrats are slandering Donald Trump on Misplaced Pages" userbox vs. the editor actually going out in the wild to PA a Democrat over their position in a discussion on Talk:Donald Trump. BarntToust 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC) Unfortunately for this case, there's diffs galore of Hob going out of their way to call others' opinions and mental capacities bullshit and dull, and thus we are here. BarntToust 20:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh I deal with the same problems Hob does, believe me. Many around here do. WP:CIR is a thing, and yes, I personally believe it should be enforced much more vigorously. But no, I generally don't comment on other editors' intellectual capabilities in discussions. Most editors do not. If you want to discuss this further, please do so at my user talk. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

And those words, editors, are the summary of the conclusion drawn at the above "extended discussion" CT. BarntToust 20:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose block Obviously punitive. We don't do that. Black Kite (talk) 19:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose block per my comment above. Bishonen | tålk 19:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC).
• Support editing restriction per Apaugasma's suggestion above. BarntToust 19:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose as I've seen worse stuff going on than "bullshit". BarntToust 15:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanctions on Hob Gadling - I'm not seeing any clear sanctionable misbehavior here. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Punitive. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Just not seeing it as sanctionable. As an aside, the four (count them four) collapses in this filing are an example of why I prefer AE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Pppery, O3000 etc. Tired of efforts to sanction good editors based on concepts of civility which are overly formalistic and don't duly assign weight to context (in my opinion, of course). ---Sluzzelin talk 23:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose- I also see no obvious justification for a block. Doug Weller talk 10:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support formal warning or 1 week block as per discussion above. It now also looks that there has been some 'coordinated editing', with all editors aligned to one POV on Covid lab leak page coming out to place ban on OP for reporting this uncivil behaviour. This was bad ban by @The Bushranger: who failed to recognise malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors, who damage the project. IntrepidContributor (talk) 20:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Or, "unconfirmed conspiracies are WP:FRINGE and there's nothing more to it than that", y'know. Have you even read the Misplaced Pages is listening to professional organisations, we have to go against the grain screed Lard leg warmers added to their page? I mean, seriously? WP:AGF says that this is appearance of impropriety, but, y'know, fringe is fringe, and if being a "small but well coordinated group of POV editors" is what you get for adhering to veracity, then Lord help us. BarntToust 20:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors And you're complaining about another editor's uncivil behavior? Okay... JoJo Anthrax (talk) 22:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, I am referring to them as group, and I am claiming here, on administrator talk page, which is for these complaints, that they are coordinated, most likely off-wiki. The vote to ban is not truly representative of community. IntrepidContributor (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Block - send trouts instead. sometimes getting exasperated in a project is different than actual bad-faith edits. if a long-term pattern of incivility, more punitive measure coudl be warranted. diffs brought up don't seem that bad, though they could have been more civil. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• could support apaugasma's suggestion. seems useful. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  "Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense" is far too vague for an editing restriction. The problem is "including but not limited to"; if the restriction ended after the word "capabilities" you might have something you could work with (though I would still oppose it). Black Kite (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Isn't everyone prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities? jp×g🗯️ 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Not necessarily. If I am editing, say, a scientific article, and am forever having to revert an editor who is making errors because they don't understand the subject, it is not a violation of civility to point out that they need to go away and learn about it before trying to edit again. The rather woolly restriction above would stop someone from doing even that. Black Kite (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Black Kite is right on point. Problem is Hob can't do that without highly personal comments of people not being clearheaded, lacking reasoning skills, being prone to believe in crackpotty views and defending crazy ideas, etc. Also, I'm fairly confident that if Hob were restricted from pointing out incompetence, someone else would do so in a civil way. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is why the editing restriction is appealable, this editing restriction is not necessary on regular editors, but appears necessary for them. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Clearly not sanctionable, and hardly even uncivil, especially when viewed in the context of the discussions. At most maybe awarding a barn-trout (is there such a thing?) that celebrates that he didn't actually loose his cool and become uncivil, while at the same time, being rather offputting and feeding the POV-troll. TiggerJay (talk) 07:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Bish. The day we start punishing good contributors for not having a constantly saintly response to awful WP:CIR POV-pushers is the day this project goes to hell. ser! 12:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  We do all the time, our civility policies do not care if you are right in a discussion or good contributors. You are way off the mark in your general assessment. PackMecEng (talk) 14:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Indeed, it's even part of the civility policy (WP:CIVBRINE). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm well familiar with civility guidelines and that being right doesn't exclude you from them. The point is that we should not mete out sanctions, let alone a month block in situations where there is an occasional display of imperfection when responding to POV pushing - especially considering per the comment above what is being replied to. If this was a genuine WP:CIVIL breach I'd support sanctions but I have not seen anything from Hob above that meets that. ser! 23:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Again you seem to be factoring in them being right with your justification because it was responding to POV pushing. Also no one expects perfection, just to do better. The bar is already so low, lets not encourage limbo. PackMecEng (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• By all means WP:TROUT. We should all strive to be nicer and not personalize. Believe me, I understand that it is hard in these contexts. jps (talk) 13:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposed Hob Gadling Editing Restriction by Apaugasma

Hob Gadling (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 6 months at WP:AN.

Hob Gadling is permitted to comment that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is WP:FRINGE, or anything else related to the editorial process, but prohibited from commenting on other editors' ability to come to such conclusions for themselves, enforceable with blocks. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Support Great contribution is not a get-out-of-jail free card from WP:CIVIL & WP:BITE, complying with this editing restriction should not be difficult. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

this is already being debated above. thought we generally shouldnt make multiple RFCs in a single section like this anyways? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Suspected off-wiki coordination in COVID-19 lab leak topic

It appears there is off-wiki coordination between POV editors going back many years in this topic. It is easy to spot this because complaints of non-neutral wording and unbalanced sourcing are frequent over years and from varied editors, while responses always the same and from same group of editors, often ending up in administrator talk boards like this resulting in quick ban by passing admin unaware of this dynamic. Calls for neutrality rarely ask for more than slightly more neutral wording (like not using wikivoice to describe "misplaced suspicion" in lab leak theory due to outbreak's proximity to lab ), and responses always cursory and blunted, and often even uncivil, which is why OP started this discussion. It common for these editors to immediately start threatening sanctions as soon someone comes near topic asking for more neutral coverage, making it impossible for progress without RFC on every tiny point. It is required for administrators to review coordinated editing in this topic. IntrepidContributor (talk) 07:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Let be caution you to not draw undue attention to yourself in these discussions, not because there is some grand conspiracy, coordination or cabal at work. Rather because it will cause people to being to look into some of your questionable editing behaviors. This is especially true as it seems like you're doubling-down on your position shared with a now TBAN'ed user, while casting grand aspirations of off-wiki coordination. However, if you have an actual accusation to present formally, please start a new section and be prepared to provide evidence (especially in the form of diffs) and not simply broad claims. Without such, there is no more a claim you might have to editors coordinating to work against your position, than might be said of editors who you align with that have been blocked or banned from FT topics. Please take a moment and look over WP:1AM and let me again caution you against boomerang, which LW learned the hard way. And lets you be tempted like Palpable above, this is not a threat, but please take it as intended, which is a friendly, AGF, suggestion to consider how you proceed from here, as your self-perspective of the situation does not reflect the actual reality of the situation. TiggerJay (talk) 08:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It might actually be easy to spot this because we're all so very, very used to the same old song and dance from POV-pushers by this point, can spot them coming from a mile away, and know that "neutrality" is the last thing they actually want. WP:NOTNEUTRAL explains this very well - as does WP:TINC: There is no cabal conspiring against you unless you created it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be easy to spot if you read dispute where there is actual RfC where consensus (so far) clearly leans in the way of the editor you call POV pusher. Perhaps it was too much for me to ask that you read the diffs properly instead of taking the complaint on face value, but I expect more of you as an admin. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you could provide diffs or links for your claim of off-wiki collusion that would help. Circumstantial evidence and asking editors to read between the lines isn't very useful. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you being facetious? Off-wiki coordination is by definition, off-wiki, and diffs are not possible. This is an administrator noticeboard diffs are not the only admissible form of evidence. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an administrator noticeboard, clearly, yes it is, that and that only. The evidence required to prove off-wiki collusion should be sent to WP:ARBCOM, because off-wiki business can't be brought here because, many reasons, though to start, posting reddit links and discord convos usually constitutes a vio of WP:OUTING. So get off of this noticeboard with problems it is unable to address, and see WP:ARBCOM. BarntToust 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, should such evidence exists, don't just open an AE case (again, WP:OUTING) but rather contact the arbitration committee privately. Simonm223 (talk) 13:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Coming to ANI about off-wiki collusion compares to a person calling a welder when their plumbing is clogged. BarntToust 14:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Welders too do plumbing,. EEng 22:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Aha. I refer to calling a welder when plumbing is clogged, not really installed or replaced. Usually when I call the local plumber to unclog my master bathroom toilet, a minimal amount of sparks are produced during their work. BarntToust 23:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you have evidence of off-wiki coordination this should be sent privately to the arbitration committee. If you don't have evidence you never should have opened this thread anyway. Either way the right thing to do is to withdraw this accusation from this venue. Simonm223 (talk) 13:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You apparently only read "diffs" and not "or links". Unsubstantiated WP:ASPERSIONS shouldn't be anywhere, let alone ANI. If you have any proof take it to ARBCOM per Simonm223. If you don't have actual proof then you should retract your claim. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

So... are ya gonna cast ASPERSIONS or are you gonna send Arbitrarion some links to, idk, discord servers, IRC rooms, anything? Bans—they're what happens when an editor has, nearly a fetish, for trying to include information—at every possible turn—that goes against medical professionals' standpoints. Consensus in the scientific community establishes an idea and discounts another, Misplaced Pages covers the major, non-fringe outlooks on subjects. BarntToust 11:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Don't play devil's advocate for POV-pushers. You get nowhere with it. Unless you have damning proof that editors are banding together behind-the-curtains in illicit fashion, I encourage you to strike some text using <s> your unwarranted remarks here </s> BarntToust 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• I suggest that IntrepidContributor should either provide evidence to Arbcom or immediately withdraw this accusation. Either way this topic of discussion should be closed as inappropriate to AN/I. Simonm223 (talk) 13:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang. IntrepidContributor has repeatedly made aspersions and assumptions of bad faith against many editors, both here and in the above section, none of which are supported by any evidence whatsoever. Making such baseless accusations the focus of an ANI subsection is a waste of editors' time, and when combined with their disruptive actions elsewhere (e.g., here) it indicates that a time-out is required. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  I want to give them the chance to withdraw their accusation before calling for a boomerang. But if they refuse to do so or just disappear from the thread with the comments out there then, yeah, it's probably that time. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  We now have this, which demonstrates that IntrepidContributor has chosen to triple- (quadruple?) down on their evidence-free aspersions against multiple editors. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  OK that was doubling down after they got clear instructions about how to handle it from more than one editor here. Simonm223 (talk) 15:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Instructions? What are you? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Sorry for not being clear. By "time-out" I mean a topic ban from COVID-19, broadly construed. I can understand why the repeated, evidence-free aspersions and assumptions of bad faith, which have yet to be withdrawn, justify an indef. I just don't see how this approach is a benefit to the project. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang. If it was just this out-of-pocket subsection, I would agree with Simonm223 on giving some time of day, but since Intrepid's aspersions have been pervasive throughout this report according to JoJo Anthrax's motion, and also considering that they have recently carried out a deletion that ended up being improper to the point of disruption, a boomerang needs to happen so this improper conduct can be addressed. BarntToust 15:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• There was WP:ARBSCE three years ago. If IntrepidContributor has any evidence they should go to Arbcom for WP:ARBSCE2. Otherwise, they should retract and strike their aspersions here ASAP. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang After being advised that they should privately contact the arbitration committee this editor instead just spammed the accusation into the comments of an AE filing about someone who shares their POV. This is inappropriate and disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang IntrepidContributor was pointed to WP:BOOMERANG eleven days ago in this filing and knows what it means. This is yet more worthy of a BOOM than the OP. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to give IntrepidContributor one last chance to strike their comment, otherwise I don't see how this can end anyway but badly for them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Following warnings and warnings about not casting aspersions and making baseless claims of collusion, IntrepidContributor ignored them and has taken the same aspersions and baseless accusations of collusion to AE anyways. Their chances have run out. BarntToust 16:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on this answer, yeah, I think the best course of action is to encourage IC to look for other parts of the encyclopedia where they can work collaboratively and to be firmly invited to cease editing anything related to COVID-19. Simonm223 (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

This comment, I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you, makes it sound like you are either bullshitting everyone about having evidence, or you are more worried about running everyone around the corner like dogs at a fire hydrant rather than actually helping out and exposing some serious fuckery that's going on in the topic. BarntToust 18:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor As an uninvolved admin looking over this, I suggest that you either confirm your submission of evidence to ARBCOM or cease your allegations of off-wiki collusion. You've not provided any evidence/diffs for on-wiki collusion and have repeatedly made accusations. This is unacceptable. WP:PUTUPORSHUTUP EvergreenFir (talk) 18:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

How are my supposed to confirm submission of evidence and to who? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Damn it, dude, you ARE running us around the bend like dogs at a fire hydrant! As has been instructed for you to do numerous times: Go to the page --> WP:ARBCOM <-- and look for the instructions to submit reports, and put your "evidence" there. Confirm that you did so here, and we will trust that you have: whether or not you actually did matters to nobody, because the only thing that will matter is that and if you did, a case that is none of our concern will open, and then if that case finds your "evidence" true, then those of us involved in the conspiracy will be put to arbitration either behind the scenes or at WP:AE. BarntToust 18:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Or as the uninvolved Admin notes, an arb will confirm that they have received something from you, thus this tangent will close. BarntToust 18:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Say you've emailed them and I'm sure ScottishFinnishRadish or HJ Mitchell or another arb would be able to confirm receipt of a substantive and meaningful email containing your evidence. If they can confirm it, I would close this discussion. If not, I would look at WP:BOOMERANG EvergreenFir (talk) 18:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I will email them in the morning (EET). I didn't plan on this extra work load today. But I have enough diffs to make the report by then. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You are putting this off as if you have nothing to report. First IntrepidContributor says "I have diffs", then present them. No, it's "I have off-wiki collusion", then go to ARBCOM. Cycling back-and-fuckin'-forth between this dog-fire hydrant nonsense, and finally, now we're back at "I have enough diffs". And you ask, "to who  ?", and after reiterating everything we have said numerously through this thread, you say I will email them in the morning. You had enough time today to open this thread, then throw a blunderbuss of accusations everywhere, and you had enough time to bring your bullshit to AE. Yet, you don't have enough time to list diffs and give explanations to the arb committee? I smell a load of horse shit.

I invite the next uninvolved admin to issue a block to IntrepidContributor for general disruptive editing.

Yours in Buddha, Jesus, and SpongeBob, BarntToust 19:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor - by my watch it is now in the afternoon EET (17:55), can you confirm here if you have actually submitted the email earlier today as promised here? TiggerJay (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish @HJ Mitchell -- any chance you can confirm if @IntrepidContributor has contacted ARBCOM in the last 24 hours? TiggerJay (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Nothing in my inbox. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think at this point IC has failed to make good on their "I'll do it in the morning" commitment. And they still decline to withdraw their personal attacks and baseless accusations. Simonm223 (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. This is a direct accusation against an editor here and a nonsensical statement about the arbs. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

as do you No I struck don't and I've had enough of being tarred with baseless struck. Whether that's here or at lableak talk page, somewhere I rarely comment on a topic I rarely edit. You appear to only be able to see editors you disagree with through a battleground mentality, and as part of some conspiratorial cabal.

Unless an Arb can confirm that evidence has been provided, and shows something I've obviously missed, I propose IntrepidContributor be blocked for WP:DISRUPTIVE behaviour. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, they said they think the arbs already know. So I guess they're in on the conspiracy. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Objective3000, please Read that again in full context. What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. This was only a smartass, tongue-in-cheek remark about how "everybody here knows about fight club, but doesn't talk about it". Like, a smartass remark that "POV-pushing and cabals are an open secret knownst to the gentry" or something. No arb has been notified, the editor is being a smartass. BarntToust 20:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, I read this two ways, I thought you misread their text 😅 you're probably just being funny. lol sorry. The editor still needs a block tho. BarntToust 20:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes. But at this point, not sure I can tell when they are being serious or trolling. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Objective3000, @BarntToust - I would hope the next uninvolved admin would see that I gave conditions for IntrepidContributor. If those are not met, they will be blocked. There's no rush here and carrying on this discussion calling for blood isn't exactly productive.

If another admin find clear and convincing evidence warranting a block of Intrepid Contributor, then they should block them. Otherwise, I'd ask that the "offer" remain. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would block them now, @EvergreenFir, and I would wait until a member of ARBCOM confirms—not what IntrepidContributor submitted—but that what they've submitted is legitimate evidence of what they claim is happening. At that confirmation, and with the ARBCOM member's blessing to the blocking admin, then the editor would be unblocked. The editor is fucking with us even as we outline the processes to make ARBCOM reports, and their other contributions listed in this report such as improper, half-assed deletions they won't bother to complete properly are screaming NOTHERE. BarntToust 20:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with BT... (except the potentially uncivil, but probably warranted uncivil language)... Beyond this discussion, IC is otherwise being disruptive to the project including blanking pages with a lousy excuse.. Since they had the time to start this discussion that was apparently so urgent and a big deal, yet not the time to complete the necessary paperwork, coupled with all of the other factors, it seems like blocking to prevent further disruption is prudent. TiggerJay (talk) 20:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

thanks for concurring. As the community has above developed a consensus that an editor using profanity to describe actions and behavior is not prohibited, I'm completely safe in calling IC's behavior shitty (WP:SPADE), so long as I make no direct remarks about IC personally. I don't believe I've done that. BarntToust 21:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

As Jay said, besides the report, they have been being disruptive in other parts on Misplaced Pages, and considering the fact that they have been disruptive during the very processes of ANI itself, besides the unfounded claims of cabals they spew, there has been enough bullshit going on for a NOTHERE block. BarntToust 21:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Evergreen, forgive us our impatience. Some of us spend all too much time in CTOPs. It's wearing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If they show arbs proof of their accusations then fine, otherwise the they need to stop. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

My suspicion is that what IC actually has is like 2 diffs of some veteran editor saying to some other veteran editor "hey you should email me!" or something similar. Which is entirely normal, part of the way wikipedia works, and not "off-wiki coordination". Or some similar conspiratorial nonsense. When you're a hammer (conspiracy-believing POV-pusher) everything looks like a nail (proof that all the mean people who disagree with you are actually part of a secret government agency that's coordinating against you and laughing about you behind your back). Nothing that happens on the lab leak page requires or even suggests there is off-wiki coordination. Where contentious articles exist on wiki, there is almost always a small group of veteran editors who tangentially edit around that topic and watch their watchlists like hawks to make sure POV CPUSHing SPAs don't ruin the beauty that is a truly NPOV contentious article. They don't need to coordinate, because they generally share in common a belief in the five pillars and edit accordingly.I am really very excited to see what IC comes up with. — Shibbolethink 22:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I honestly think what it comes down to is selection bias. The sorts of people who frequent the Fringe Theory noticeboard and who don't get mad and leave quickly tend to be skeptical, critical and materialist. And critical materialist skeptics tend to look negatively on conspiracy theories, pseudo science and quackery. For a conspiracy minded person there's all these like-minded nay-sayers saying variations of "that's a conspiracy theory" and so they... do what conspiracy minded people do and assume it's a conspiracy. Really it's just a messageboard whose topic filters for a certain subjectivity. Simonm223 (talk) 01:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang I only speak for the quad-corner-tri-city and metro areas cabal, not the greater WP:MEDRS cabal, but I agree a boomerang is in order. Extra Jesus Hold The Satan!! (talk) 08:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang means topic ban, I presume. But y'all would be better served to make this kind of thing clear in your arguments. My worry when it comes to this matter is primarily with IntrepidContributor's claim of coordinated cabals suppressing the truth functioning rather as something like accusation in a mirror (and apologies for the possible Godwin's Law implications). In any case, and even if that's not what's going on, I have a hard time seeing the net positive in this topic coming from IntrepidContributor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and generally think the problems on this topic stem from a lack of strong WP:CTOP enforcement which hopefully we are now coming to terms with. jps (talk) 13:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• That would be my interpretation. A topic ban is definitely in order. Maybe for all conspiracy theories as well as anything COVID related. Simonm223 (talk) 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

TBan would be appropriate no matter what. But IMO these ongoing accusations should result in an indef block for NOTHERE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang since they clearly did not heed advice to drop the stick and want to persist in their claims, in addition to all of the aforementioned issues. It has now been 20 hours since they posted so far, and I would be very curious to know if they actually did submit the email evidence that they claimed they would email them in the morning (EET). - It is now 5:54pm (1754) in EET, so if they haven't yet, then it should result in indef block for legal threats and excessive disruption. If they did fulfill their promise, then a TBAN is still most certainly in order. TiggerJay (talk) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Did I miss something, what legal threats? PackMecEng (talk) 13:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  For as much as this goofy goober IC ticks me off, I will give them one, one note: threatening to send people to the arbcom is not a legal threat. It's a Misplaced Pages "court", not an IRL court. WP:NLT doesn't apply here, but a whole heck of a lot of else does. BarntToust 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Ah okay thanks! PackMecEng (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Uh, the English Misplaced Pages's Arbitration Committee is not a court of law? jp×g🗯️ 18:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Block and TBAN already, this is beyond WP:BOOMERANG at this point, so have no idea why people are !voting that the editor shouldn't be immune from scrutiny; based on BOOMERANG they never were in the first place, and this discussion went full circle boomerang instantly. Anyway, this has wasted my time reading this section, I can only assume the other sections also wasted a lot of time. The editor is clearly being disruptive, casting aspersions, and is wasting everyone's time. Please don't allow this editor to drag this on any further than it already has been dragged out, such as requesting delays from ARBCOM to provide evidence or otherwise. CNC (talk) 17:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Dinglelingy

No edits to mainspace since 2016. Blocked as WP:NOTHERE. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

(Should we continue to keep all similar issues documented in the same monster section?)

Dinglelingy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This WP:SPA seems to dip in and out of this controversy whenever things get "interesting", and here comes now again dipping in with some fairly spicy arguments on the Lab Leak theory talkpage: ,

None of this user's contributions in this area are net positives for Misplaced Pages, and I submit that it would have been better had the proposed WP:NOTHERE block been enacted when first proposed: . I guess a topic ban from COVID-19 could work too?

jps (talk) 02:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• 115 edits ever, and only 4 minor ones to article space. Last seen arguing on the talkpages of COVID conspiracy articles in 2021 for which they were warned multiple times, and back after four years doing the same thing ? That's the definition of WP:NOTHERE. Indeffed. Black Kite (talk) 08:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE

• Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.

I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.

P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.

P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.

P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, WP:V has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like WP:NSKATE without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. TarnishedPath 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi and Liz: A WP:DRV, a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "Lilia Biktagirova" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova)? Cause I was searching for sources for Alexandra Ievleva and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.
Here: "Тренер Трусовой, почти партнерша Жубера, резонансная Иевлева: кто соревновался с Туктамышевой на ее 1-м ЧР (2008)".
And again, it was Bgsu98 who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting User:Hydronium Hydroxide: "There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale." --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

After looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova, I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also found an interview with Lilia Biktagirova: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.

He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"

I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
  Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
  And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Moscow Connection

  Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."

  No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.

  If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.

  I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.

  All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...

(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.

(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.

(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me help you out here, Ravenswing. I suspect he's saying it's "very unfair" because it seems to him like it's not fair! jp×g🗯️ 14:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. —

Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply Non-notable figure skater, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – and many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While you may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("Alexandra Ievleva" and "Viktoria Vasilieva".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.
  But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.
  Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)
  By the way, I have tried searching on what was once Yandex News, but the news search doesn't work anymore. (Here's an example.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. HyperAccelerated (talk) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

...editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". One such view published almost five years ago contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)

RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. Liz 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".
Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per WP:NSPORT", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports) revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Moscow Connection, I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. Liz 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In this AfD all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

ru:Sports (сайт). Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) Ravenswing 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.
I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.

Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started. JTtheOG (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. GiantSnowman 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Here and here is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised here and here, although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior. JTtheOG (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

And here are More and more and more and more and more and more and more examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes here, close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. JTtheOG (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? GiantSnowman 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Going through their contributions, I see about a week ago there was a period of 30 minutes where they did seven AfDs -- not what I would call a paragon of thoroughness. But fifty in a half-hour is absolutely absurd regardless of when it happened -- I take more time than that to line up a shot when I throw a tissue into the trash can at the other end of the room. jp×g🗯️ 14:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. GiantSnowman 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. GiantSnowman 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that not a single one of them provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?

So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. Ravenswing 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, especially these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. However, I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like this one I found today, tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. Toadspike 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed: No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.
    You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I've decided to save "Alexandra Ievleva" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alexandra Ievleva) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    • "You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what"
      — What I do is called abductive reasoning. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.
      I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and that scared me a lot. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

      It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. Shrug02 (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I appreciate your input and insight. As I told BeanieFan11 earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.
    I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. Toadspike 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • 20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. GiantSnowman 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  While I do not know whether @Bgsu98 should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. @Toadspike. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. Star Mississippi 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating far fewer articles with Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! I suppose the whole discussion is moot. Toadspike 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)
  As I have commented below, when problems were found with Sander.v.Ginkel's articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if WP:SIRS can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. Star Mississippi 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, here and here. Zaathras (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  "As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that JTtheOG is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
• As a fellow WP:FIGURE participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that @Bgsu98: convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion is warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Mass AfDs routinely get shot down reflexively, on the (somewhat threadbare) grounds that they should all be reviewed on their individual merits, and not lumped in a group. Something of a Catch-22 there. In any event, the answer for an inadequately sourced article is not to jump through extraordinary hoops to find what isn't there. The answer is that the article cannot be sustained -- but can be recreated without prejudice should such sourcing surface down the road -- even when it's an article on a figure skater. Ravenswing 00:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Right, good point. But it still makes sense for cases where the rationale is mostly the same. Maybe not 100 articles in one but 5-10. This should help keep it at a more manageable level. Jasper Deng (talk) 05:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree with you, but in recent years, a significant number of editors haven't: sufficient to sabotage most attempts to do so. Ravenswing 13:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend everyone take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, WP:BEFORE states the following: Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects. So, I'd ask @Moscow Connection: to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: a normal Google search, or a Google Books search, or a Google News search, or a Google News archive search? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for expanding WP:BEFORE to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly recommend more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but required? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are significantly based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely WP:VPP). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does not require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion at the appropriate place if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Li Xuantong. As usual, the rationale is: Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner Wang Xinkang (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Another example: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-jae.
    A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".
    (I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-seong. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    You do realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    @HyperAccelerated: Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Personally, I would feel I had done a slipshod job if I made a nomination for an article with some passing-mention search results, and I did not address these in the nomination statement, or at the very least indicate that I had made the search. jp×g🗯️ 14:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (1, 2, 3) - dates back to May 2022. In fact, last year I issued a warning on their talk page (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with WP:NOTBURO. ミラP@Miraclepine 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
• Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. @Bgsu98: It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are multiple examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that User:Bgsu98 already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. Liz 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care why they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I've provided some 20 examples as well. JTtheOG (talk) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. JTtheOG (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by WP: HEY. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is your responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@HyperAccelerated has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @Bgsu98 revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. Shrug02 (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to Moscow Connection above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. Simonm223 (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  In case it was not already clear I too Oppose sanctions against @Bgsu98. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. Shrug02 (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Whereas I support some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. GiantSnowman 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to my log, my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your most recent nomination. JTtheOG (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• How about Bgsu98 just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!) and we end the discussion? BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  @BeanieFan11 I second this proposal. Shrug02 (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Two a day is fine by me. GiantSnowman 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)
    Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)
    Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    At this point, I'm seriously starting to think Moscow Connection needs topic banned from AfD in general, if not the entire subject matter of these articles. MC has demonstrated an inability to edit collaboratively without resorting to personal attacks and demands. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    I am regrettably willing to support either of those sanctions against MC at this point. They’ve been warned multiple times about the possibility of a WP: BOOMERANG, and those warnings were not heeded. While I really want to assume good faith here, their behavior resembles WP: HOUNDING, following Bgsu from nomination to nomination and casting a copious amount of aspersions on this ANI thread. Even if some of the Keep votes provide legitimate sources, the act of following a user across many discussions and refbombing them (in at least one case, as described in the discussion below) is not acceptable. HyperAccelerated (talk) 00:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the Internet Archive. The Matthias Bleyer article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Matthias Bleyer) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)
    There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    MC, you are rapidly digging a hole you will not be able to get out of. This incessant demands and aggressive comments are wearing thin, and if you do not stop you are likely to face WP:BOOMERANG sanctions yourself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    @HandThatFeeds: Okay, okay, sorry! By the way, I didn't even have this page on my watchlist and was just waiting for the outcome. (I came here yesterday, and there were no new replies. So I thought that was all, everyone was just waiting for an admin closure. I, personally, had said everything I wanted, I didn't even have anything to add.)
    P.S. I just came here now because Bgsu98 have edited some of my Russian figure skater articles just now. (I'm not attacking him, he hasn't ever nominated even one article of mine for AfD. Maybe because I'm trying to add a source or two to them.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think this would be reasonable. jp×g🗯️ 14:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I can see how Bgsu's nomination volume can be a problem, and support his voluntary limitations and promise to provide more thorough deletion rationales. At the same time, given the kinds of sources MC has produced as "evidence" of GNG at, e.g., Ievleva, I think his perception of our notability requirements is wildly out of line with the community's. As @Ravenswing pointed out in that AfD, MC basically repeatedly refdumped a bunch of interviews and couple-sentence mentions despite being informed of their ineligibility in contributing toward GNG, so if those are the kinds of sources they are bringing up now to demonstrate "nonexistent BEFORE searches" I am quite skeptical that the problem is as actionable as they claim. That, coupled with their broad disapproval (unawareness?) of our current NSPORT guidelines, makes me concerned about the notability of their own creations—are they also basing those articles on interviews and routine transactional blurbs? JoelleJay (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've started to wonder the same thing: that if MC is either utterly unaware of relevant notability standards or (as I suspect is the case) utterly defiant of them, are they another Lugnuts or Dolovis, and their article creations full of NN subjects? Ultimately, I don't give a damn whether MC (or anyone else) likes or approves of Misplaced Pages's standards, but they have to comply with them all the same.

  In any event, I oppose any sanction or limitation on Bgsu. I am not sure when people got the idea that filing bulk AfDs was against policy, but they are very greatly mistaken if they do think that. ANI is not the proper venue for a community discussion on changing that policy, and I recommend the Village Pump. Ravenswing 23:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I came across this article today: Gleb Lutfullin. This was the state of the article MC left before another user (and regular contributor to FS articles) added some of the tables. There is also this one: Vladislav Dikidzhi. Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:05, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hello. I've just noticed you edits to my articles and added some reliable sources.
  Sorry that I left the articles like that, but I'm not too interested in figure skating lately, I just saw the 2025 Russian Championships results and wanted to create some stubs for some new "figure skating stars". (Back in the days, other users, ones who know how to format all the tables, would come and do everything. Just a blink of an eye, and there's a lengthy article — competitive highlights, music, everything. But now I can't see anyone. Maybe they are upset by the changes to NSKATE and stopped working on Wiki.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I have added simply terrific sources everywhere. (Everyone has a full-fledged biography on a big media site.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I simply searched "Глеб Лутфуллин 2004" on Google.com. and this came out on the first page. You posted here instead of simply googling.
  P.S. I know that this article is not my proudest moment. But I don't really edit figure skating articles lately and I have never been active much in this topic. Not on the English Misplaced Pages, anyway. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  There is no such thing as 'your' articles, see WP:OWN. GiantSnowman 10:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Also that source is very dubious. Look at their about page. Notice that they have a Guinness World Records Certificate image there? It's not got the official Guinness world records logo and there are errors in how the numbers are notated on it. Which suggests this newspaper has a fake Guinness world record cert on their about page. So, yeah, not very reliable. Simonm223 (talk) 19:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hello! First of all, I must explain that I only came to that nomination because Berchanhimez asked me to find some examples of Bgsu98 not doing any WP:BEFORE research. So I went to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and looked at the current nominations. I am very sorry if I "dumped" a lot of "bad" sources on that AfD page, but I simply wanted to show everything that I had found. And I believe that it is advisable that Bgsu98 does something like this in his future nominations. Like: "Look what I have found on Google. This, this. this. I believe it's not enough and the skater is not notable. Now let's discuss."
  P.S. At first, I wanted to find some of his old nominations of some really big names, but I didn't know how to find them. So that's what I did, I came to the current ones. (I looked at some figure skating championships articles, but there were no red links. It seems that, after an article gets deleted, he or someone else deletes all the links to it.)
  P.P.S. I should probably be advised to retire from this discussion. Cause I'm being attacked already. And it looks like some people are already advising me to go away. So I'm going away. I'm still hoping something good will come of this. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think this is good of you. You’ve provided your examples, and it’s now up to others to decide whether they are examples of violations of BEFORE or not. Thank you for refocusing your comments on specific examples rather than the back and forth that was going on.

  I tend to agree that BEFORE should not be a private thing. If someone does a BEFORE and finds nothing, stating such is good. But if they find borderline or a bunch of insignificant coverage, then providing at least examples of that in the nomination with a short explanation as to why they do not consider them valid goes to show they actually did a BEFORE.

  I don’t think a voluntary restriction on number of AfDs is enough to assuage the fact that the nomination statements are short and don’t address the sources that should be found during a BEFORE. But hopefully a limit of two per day will result in better nomination statements that address more borderline sources.

  At this point it doesn’t seem there’s any appetite for sanctions, and I think MC has been explained why many of the sources they have found don’t qualify for GNG. So maybe a closure with no action overall, and hopefully going forward less nominations at a time will result in more discussion in those nominations so that issues over why the sources found aren’t adequate can occur on each individual nomination. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 17:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Is this another one of those things where between the people who spend dozens of hours a week on enforcing policies and making up new policies and arguing about how to modify policies look down our noses at the people who "merely" write/edit articles when they are confused that the rules they laboriously followed for years have been randomly changed without even their knowledge, let alone their consensus? jp×g🗯️ 14:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  No, it's more like a dispute between someone sending a bunch of articles to AfD because they lacked proper sourcing, and a fan of those articles throwing everything they can at the wall to try and "save" those articles, while smearing the person who sent them to AfD. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Never mind what I said uptopic, JPxG: policies and guidelines change, from time to time. Always have, always will, and neither yours, mine nor anyone else's personal approval are a precondition of ratifying them. It is incumbent upon editors to stay abreast of such changes if they're engaged in ongoing article creation, but at any rate, they're not exempted from them. Leaving aside that the GNG and SIGCOV have been around for many years now, the changes in NSPORTS are a few years old themselves.

  In any event, you surely can't be advocating that the most productive way to handle being in this situation is to kick, scream, and rail against the injustice of it all, as opposed to "Gosh, sorry, I didn't know. I'll go read those guidelines now, and conform hereafter." Ravenswing 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  • @JPxG: That's a good observation! :-)
    But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a WP:BEFORE search. His actions are bot-like, and his AfD nominations usually receive one or two bot-like "delete" votes. We may as well just delete all the articles that are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It will be more fair than imitating an AfD process.
    P.S. I do appreciate the people who work on AfD and put their time in reviewing the nominations. I see that some of Bgsu98's nominations do end in a "keep" thanks to those hard-working people. But there are many more that would have been kept if a proper web search was done.
    P.S. I really can't participate in this ANI thread anymore, cause I have tried to comment on some AfD nominations and what I've got are just accusations of disrupting/sabotaging the process. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    Okay, that's enough. This is just more aspersions thrown at Bgsu98, even after all the attempts above to get Moscow to disengage. I think Moscow needs a topic ban from AfD, and a one-way IBAN with Bgsu9. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    The only thing I see about Bgsu98 in that comment is But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a WP:BEFORE search. His actions are bot-like. That's certainly a valid view of the nominations. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    Support TBAN and IBAN: My hand's kind of forced here. As I stated above, I really, really didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion, and MC has been warned many times to drop the stick at this point. This is the final straw for me. These read like veiled accusations, and while MC might come here and claim that I'm misunderstanding them, I just can't give the benefit of the doubt after witnessing this consistent pattern of misbehavior. HyperAccelerated (talk) 04:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • First, you invite me to AfD (that I do not normally visit), then, when I do drop by, you don't like my comments and want to make me banned from there. That's unpolite, to say the least. And what IBAN, fgs? I swear I didn't even know who this Bgsu98 user was until a few days ago.
      My hand's kind of forced here. — That's just strange. You are not an admin. Do you have some anger issues? I think it is you and HyperAccelerated who need a ban from ANI and an IBAN from interacting with me because I have never seen you in my life and you are attacking me all of a sudden.
      P.S. I hope this will be my last comment here. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    Do you have some anger issues? And now you're casting aspersions, which is absolutely not a good look on top of everything else here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    @The Bushranger: I am very, very sorry. I didn't know that could be seen as "aspersions" that weren't allowed. They have also casted "aspersions" saying that I was trying to harrass Bgsu98 and sabotage the AfD process. When in fact, I just posted to ANI and never talked to Bgsu98 elsewhere. So I just wanted to reply to them in a similar manner. That was stupid of me.
    As for my "disruption" at AfD, I simply searched for sources and showed everything I have found. (That's how I usually search for sources, sorry. This time I didn't even try to go through all the 100 pages of Google results.)
    JPxG said that this was "one of those things" between people who enforce policies and the people who write articles. But it looks like some people who are attacking me are wikignomes who make minor edits. And when they saw one billion sources I had dumped at one AfD, they didn't understand.
    P.S. I hope I didn't say anything wrong again. I sincerely promise that I will never return to this discussion. Sorry for the inconvenience I have caused. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    I also don't think ignorance is an acceptable excuse for these kinds of comments at this point. As Ravenswing pointed out above (comment), you've been here for fifteen years. You should be more than familiar with the guidelines for civility by now. I also issued a warning that your behavior was becoming sanction-worthy here, and Hand also issued a warning here. AfD requires users to resolve disagreements over whether to keep or discuss articles in a civil manner. Given MC's aspersion that I have "anger issues" and the refbombing at this AfD of Bgsu's, I have serious doubts as to whether they can be an effective participant in AfDs. HyperAccelerated (talk) 13:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • I really, really didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion – HyperAccelerated: would you say that mass nominating fifty different articles for deletion in half as many minutes with the exact same one-sentence rationale is not bot-like? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

      Not entirely. I think it can be done by hand in that span of time, albeit it's a bit tedious. The use of "bot-like" in this context is questionable at best and objectionable at worst. But, regardless of whether you agree with my interpretation of this remark, I'm more concerned about a broader pattern of misbehavior coming from MC. We should not mistake the forest for the trees. HyperAccelerated (talk) 17:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • @Liz: Can this be stopped, please? I've said everything I wanted to say and went away from this discussion, but HandThatFeeds and HyperAccelerated are still attacking me and are writing something strange in bold font. It looks like they have highjacked this discussion and are leading it to some very unusual outcome.
      P.S. I've actually found out how I "first met" Bgsu98 and I've posted my findings here on ANI, but then I deleted that post: . (I'm sorry, but Bgsu98's name looked to me like something from a random character generator. And I don't remember every sequence of characters I see on the internet. :-)) --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • On ANI, when things aren't going your way, you don't get to say "please stop the discussion". Everyone's conduct is open to discussion here - including yours, and are writing something strange in bold font, when the only "bold font" used by (one of) them is the (very obvous) !vote to topic-ban you, is concerning. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WITHDRAWN Probably being a bit too zealous here on the whole civility thing, so closing this before I feed the fire any more. (WP:TROUT me, I've become the very editor I swore to fight) Allan Nonymous (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

WP:BOOMERANG TBAN for Moscow Connection

Uninvolved editor here. I don't know much about WP:NSKATE technicalities that brought this issue here. What I do know is that Moscow Connection conduct on here is clearly over the line, and suggests an inability to follow WP:NPA that suggests an inability to participate at AfD and a poor understanding of our deletion policy. Hence, I propose a topic ban from AfD. A word of personal advice for the user in question. If you have discovered new sources for an article previously deleted, first ask for an article to be restored to your user page, then improve the article, and then submit it through AfC. Allan Nonymous (talk) 17:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. This would be for a grand total of three "incorrect" AFD !votes. That's it. Three. (1 / 2 / 3). Topic-banning an editor because there were three AFDs where they provided sources that were insufficient, whereas we have an editor at this discussion who was nominating potentially notable articles (and many notable articles) en masse without any search whatsoever, which included 50 AFDs in half as many minutes, is utterly ludicrous. This discussion should have been closed a long time ago with no action, or, if anything, a restriction on Bgsu98. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. While they have at times been obtuse in this ANI thread, they do not seem to have done any actual harm outside of it. I am opposed to the existence of a "thunderdome" area where people get summoned to do combat, yelled at by a dozen people for several days, and then banned if they happen to get mad during this.

jp×g🗯️ 21:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. Even I think this is unnecessary at this point. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. The user is highly passionate about the subject. That’s great - and to be quite blunt, we should be encouraging that. The user identified a problematic behavior (rapid AfD nominations that did not appear, at first, to be BEFOREd properly). From what I’ve seen, those issues have been resolved - both by the user reported agreeing to slow down on their nominations and explain them better, as well as by the MC realizing that many of the coverages they’ve found are borderline at best for determining notability.

This thread got out of hand because people didn’t focus on the issue at hand. And I broadly agree with jpxg above - when rather than trying to refocus the thread people just pile on someone who made a good faith report, of course they’ll get a bit mad and make some mistakes that are borderline NPA/civility violations. But ask yourself this - is recommending a BOOMERANG for a problem that’s resolved not inflaming the situation more? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose As @BeanieFan11 said this discussion should have been closed a long time ago. @Moscow Connection has been very uncivil at times on this thread and others, particularly in their language and questioning of other editors' motives and abilities, but hopefully they will learn from what has been said during this discussion and will not repeat this behaviour. I was in favour of giving @Bgsu98 a chance and I do not want to be hypocritical by not doing so with MC too.

Shrug02 (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

KirillMarasin promoting medical treatments and "conversion therapy"

CBANNED KirillMarasin has been banned by the Misplaced Pages community. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

KirillMarasin (talk · contribs)

I think we have two related problems with KirillMarasin. First up, he promotes and seeks to legitimise the pseudo-medical practice of "conversion therapy" (diff1, diff2, diff3 Yes, that really is a medical claim being sourced to Reddit!) and secondly he adds medical claims to other articles which are either unreferenced or which are improperly referenced to sites selling supplements (diff5, diff6, diff7 and diff8). Attempts by multiple editors to warn him have been unavailing and I read this as both a personal attack and a highly offensive suggestion that I practice "conversion therapy" on myself. Beyond that, this is a clear and sustained case of WP:POV and WP:IDHT. --DanielRigal (talk) 02:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think I promoted anything though. I didn't say it was good or bad, I was trying to be neutral. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:28, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Even if my edits are not high-quality, the article on conversion therapy has a lot of gaslighting, saying time and time again there are no treatments, when the opposite is true. KirillMarasin (talk) 09:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Not according to science baaed RS which is all that matters from Misplaced Pages's PoV Nil Einne (talk) 10:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

What is RS? KirillMarasin (talk) 12:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Good question! You were supposed to know that in order to edit Misplaced Pages. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

It's short for "Reliable Sources". You can learn about it at WP:RS @KirillMarasin. Nakonana (talk) 15:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I've already read it. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Not only are your edits not of high-quality, at least two of your sources are garbage, and you're edit warring at that article as well. You need to step away from that article. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Why would you even consider 4Chan to be a legitimate source for anything, let alone a science/medicine-based topic? That, in of itself, is a major issue. King Lobclaw (talk) 11:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Just looking at the three conversion therapy edits mentioned by DanielRigal, this one makes a medical claim without citing any sources at all and this one cites reddit and 4chan for medical claims. Finally, this one cites a paper in the Journal of Neurosurgery for the claim that some methods of conversion therapy were working. The paper in question in fact says that while Heath claimed that the patient had a full recovery and engaged exclusively in heterosexual activities, other sources argued that the patient continued to have homosexual relationships. Any of these diffs on their own would be totally unacceptable. Additionally, a glance at Special:History/Conversion therapy shows that KirillMarasin not only added these claims once, but reinstated them after their removal was adequately explained. e.g. here they add the "some methods of conversion therapy were working" claim, here the addition is reverted with the edit summary explaining that the source does not support the addition, here KirillMarasin reinserts the text with the edit summary It doesn't need deleting, I'll try to edit it to better reflect the article. When somebody reverts an edit because it contradicts the cited source, you need to fix that error before reinstating it. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Would a WP:TOPICBAN on WP:GENSEX prevent further inappropriate editing? Note this is a question, I'm not familiar with WP:GENSEX and it may very well not have any bearing or may be the wrong approach here. --Yamla (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think there's a CIR issue as well. The slipping of sources from 4chan into a contentious topic seems either like overt trolling or a serious lack of understanding of sources.King Lobclaw (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I tested the treatments on myself before writing. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Anecdotal evidence does not belong in an encyclopedia. Only scientific evidence qualifies as a reliable source that can be quoted. Nakonana (talk) 15:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Original research is not allowed on Misplaced Pages. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'd still like to WP:AGF, even though I'm beginning to have my doubts. I think this is a CIR issue first and foremost, with a mixture of POV-pushing and lack of understanding of WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:MEDRS. Since they are here, and reading this page, and haven't edited since they started following this conversation, I think @KirillMarasin: should read those policies first, before they attempt to edit again. If they continue with their current editing pattern, though, a WP:TOPICBAN would be entirely appropriate. — The Anome (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  The editor has been directed to WP:MEDRS in the past, before the most recent spate of unsourced or promotionally-sourced edits, so it does not seem to have had any positive effect. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Not all of the problem edits have been WP:GENSEX; the ones listed by the OP aa diffs 5 through 8 are on sexual health matters not under that GENSEX guideline. A more general medical topic ban, widely construed, may be more appropriate. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:18, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:NQP, WP:CIR. I can assume good faith, as this editor presumably grew up in a culture where widespread homophobia is normalized (referring, of course, to 4chan), but these edits are repulsive. I would expect that an editor of 15 years would be aware of policies like WP:RS, let alone WP:FRINGE. Editors who like to tweak numbers and facts without citations can wreak a lot more disruption than just inserting insane nonsense on controversial articles, which is easily spotted and reversed. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 15:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I tested the treatments on myself before writing. And why do you use strong language on my edits instead of trying to stay neutral? KirillMarasin (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEUTRAL. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:35, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 17:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Wow. It's understandable that a newbie might believe that such obvious original research might be acceptable, but for someone with KM's tenure here to present "I tested the treatments on myself" as a justification for adding something to any article, let alone one subject to WP:MEDRS, is extremely concerning. CodeTalker (talk) 18:08, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

KirillMarasin (talk · contribs) has been here for more than a decade. It's hard to believe that suddenly, he doesn't know that 4Chan isn't a usable source - and in a topic like this, too. Signs are pointing to NOTHERE. King Lobclaw (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry for posting low-quality content here. I will adhere to the rules in the future. KirillMarasin (talk) 15:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I find that impossible to believe, given your tenure here and apparent refusal to follow rules you clearly should know. At this point I can only assume you are trolling. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I think an indefinite block for WP:CIR is an appropriate remedy. Simonm223 (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Having looked through this, all I can say is wow. Even leaving aside the obvious problems already listed above, and responding to concerns with Have you tried this on yourself before making a comment? If not, then I don't have time to argue with you., there's the odd fact that the editor was away for a time and then came back here to do this, inserting what are or are indistinguishable from promotional links, and generally taking a hard turn from most previous editing, making me wonder if the account is WP:COMPROMISED. Suggesting an indefinite block because either it's that or it's very elaborate trolling. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  No technical indication the account is compromised, but that doesn't conclusively prove it isn't. --Yamla (talk) 20:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  While they've been relatively inactive for years, the only year since first becoming active that they have made no edits at all is 2022. They have been making psychiatry-related edits since at least 2018 (see e.g. this addition of a treatment claim based on their admittedly original research) and their most recent music edit (previously their primary editing interest) was in 2023. I guess it could be a compromised account but I think it's probably not Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 22:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• I have indefinitely blocked KirillMarasin for persistent addition of unsourced or poorly sourced content. By "poorly sourced", I mean shockingly bad sources. This editor's history is strange. The editor was moderately active in the video game topic area 12 to 14 years ago and then effectively disappeared. After their return in December, their sole focus has been spreading nonsense about sexuality and "conversion therapy". At this point, they are not competent to build the encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 20:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've seen people offer established accounts for sale, maybe that's what happened here? Schazjmd (talk) 21:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I find it more likely this is someone who fell into the "redpill" community and decided to come back to Misplaced Pages to WP:RGW. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  They have been somewhat active on ruwiki and actually got a warning over homophobia on their talk page in July 2023. See: ru:Обсуждение участника:KirillMarasin#Недопустимость гомофобии. Nakonana (talk) 00:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I feel it unlikely anyone paid for this account, why would someone pay for an account then say such clueless stuff? There's also the fact the 2018 stuff seem similar enough. I don't know if the Russian editing could be a factor in why they're so confused. Are sourcing standards weaker or is the OR not outright forbidden on the Russian wikipedia? I'd hope no wikipedia allows Reddit let alone 4chan, the same with OR, for medical information but I could imagine some allowing at least Reddit along with some forms of OR for gaming related stuff. (I mean we don't consider simple plot summaries from OR.) In any case, I'm fairly sure this isn't the first editor we've had who was sort of okay while editing some stuff but who's editing fell apart when it was something they particularly cared about. Nil Einne (talk) 03:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  The contribution that got him the warning on ruwiki was not about adding content, but about removing content (regarding child adoption by gay couples) accompanied by a discriminatory comment towards LGBTQ+ people in the edit summary (translation of the comment: "removing disgusting content").

  Generally speaking, they only have 196 edits on ruwiki versus 3,351 on enwiki, so I wouldn't expect that differences in sourcing standards on ruwiki could have any notable effect on his editing on enwiki.

  I only brought up ruwiki to point out that he has been active there, while he seemed to have "disappeared" on enwiki. Meaning, the account might not be compromised, i.e. it's not an account that suddenly returned from wiki-retirement, but an account that probably was consistently active throughout the years, even if at low activity level, and the LGBTQ+ issue also doesn't seem to be an out-of-character new development. Nakonana (talk) 20:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Community ban for KirillMarasin

COMMUNITY BANNED By the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, KirillMarasin is banned from Misplaced Pages. The ban may be appealed no sooner than six months from this date. If the ban is successfully appealed, a topic ban on GENSEX and sexual health matters, broadly construed, shall remain in force. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

For seeming WP:CIR and WP:PROMO issues, I proposed that KirillMarasin be community banned. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Also support a GENSEX TBAN. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I propose a community ban on all editing, appealable no sooner than six months from now. I also propose a WP:TOPICBAN on WP:GENSEX and on sexual health matters, broadly construed. That topic ban would be appealable no sooner than six months and 500 constructive article edits after the community ban was lifted. Comment: There are significant problems with this user's editing. These are deeply concerning given the length of time this account has been active. Claiming 4chan is a reasonable source to use, claiming personal experience is a reasonable source, etc. Before any unban, I'd expect to see a convincing argument from KirillMarasin that they understand what was wrong with their edits and with the sourcing of their edits. Frankly, this doesn't cover all the bases. There are other serious concerns here. But... it would be a start. --Yamla (talk) 20:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support as per Hemiauchenia's reasonings. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nom, using Reddit and 4chan as sources in this topic area is totally unacceptable, and then claiming they've tried it is unbelievable, honestly, I think we're being trolled here. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. Even now, I see no indication that he understands what the problems really are. I'm not sure about the question of trolling. It certainly had crossed my mind but, given that he appears to be Belarusian, it might be that he is merely be reproducing lies taught to him as facts in school. If so, I feel at least some sympathy for him but that doesn't change the outcome here. He has had enough warnings. You can't be citing Reddit and 4chan, especially for medical or medical adjacent subjects, and expect to remain an editor in good standing. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:56, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Even in Belarus I have a hard time believing anyone thinks tapeworms give you homosexuality which can then be cured by eating garlic. He’s either deep in the redpill conspiracy rabbit hole (and falling for a /pol/ shitpost) or a troll himself. Dronebogus (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note I have indefinitely blocked this editor. The community ban discussion should proceed. Cullen328 (talk) 21:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support a community ban from en.wp with a requirement of a GENSEX tban if subsequently lifted. This is either incompetence, trolling or both. Simonm223 (talk) 21:04, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose but endorse the block. At this point, the only difference between a community ban and the current block is how the editor can appeal. A block would be reviewed by an uninvolved admin, while a ban would be reviewed by the community. I support bans when I feel that the appeal shouldn't be reviewed by a single admin, but this case is pretty garden-variety and I see no need to involve the community in a review of any appeals. See the table at WP:BANBLOCKDIFF — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  No, this case is not "pretty garden-variety", it is absolutely appalling that an editor is using social media platforms as sources in this topic area, and dubiously claiming they have tried it on themselves. I am uncomfortable with a single admin reviewing any appeal, the community should have a say in this matter. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, it is appalling. By "garden-variety", I meant the issue is simple to analyze and an unblock review would have clear criteria to be successful. I think of community bans when I see problem editors who admins have failed to block for some reason, or editors who have caused widespread disruption affecting many users and pages. On the other hand, if you are concerned about having a single admin review the appeal, then a community ban is quite appropriate. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:47, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Behavior is completely beyond the pail of acceptability. Insanityclown1 (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Weak support I sort of agree with rsjaffe that this seems simple enough that I'm not afraid of leaving it for an admin to handle the unblock. I mean when an editor twice tells us they tested something on themselves, it's a clear sign the editor's understanding of even the basics of how we create Misplaced Pages even after a long time and 3000+ are so poor it's going to take a for them to get back. And that's being very generous and assuming they just didn't recognise the RS acronym rather than not even being aware of the term 'reliable source'. Which even being that generous they still didn't understand the concept putting aside OR given 4chan etc. However unlike rsjaffe I don't see a harm in a cban and given that this discussion was started before the indef, I feel it's fine to continue it as noted by the admin. Nil Einne (talk) 03:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support (and I endorse Culln328's block as an administrator). To have returned after many years of absence solely to push conversion therapy pseudoscience using the least reliable sourcing imaginable clearly violates so many policies and guidelines that unblocking should require the confidence of the community. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 05:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support CBAN (and endorse indef) - promotion of fringe ideas and POVpushing like this has no place on wikipedia. The WP:CIR issues are the cherry on top. — Shibbolethink 06:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support Having read more of the discussion in the previous section, I agree, reluctantly, that a CBAN is the only way forward here. — The Anome (talk) 10:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support - Promoting conversion therapy, along with the RU wiki issues, tells me this person needs to be kept away from our community until they've had a substantial amount of growth. This isn't something any admin should be able to revoke on their own, the community needs to be involved before this person comes back. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Support homophobia (implicit here, made explicit on ruwiki) and promotion of homophobic fringe nonsense. Use of 4chan, WP:OR and Reddit as sources shows severe WP:CIR issues as well if it’s not outright trolling. Dronebogus (talk) 18:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History of disruptive COI editing

I didn't wanted to go through this, but I'm done being patient. There appears to be a long history of disruptive COI editing by Armandogoa on his father's article Carlos Alvares Ferreira. He usually edits this page after every few months or so, and seems to add unreferenced content as per his latest edit done on the page here . I had many of his edits reverted myself.

I also did place a COI warning on his talk page over a year ago . But he seems to not understand it this way. His father is an active politician, and considering our WP:BLP policies, I think this editor should be blocked to prevent any other controversial or peacock material added in the future. Rejoy(talk) 07:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, User:Rejoy2003,

You'd probably get more of a response if you provided diffs of edits of this "long history of disruptive COI editing" you are concerned about. I don't see the one edit you listed as egregious, anyone could proably find a source for a politician's promotion since they are public figures. It doesn't seem "controversial" or "peacock" to me. Liz 05:00, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Liz, we both know that per WP:COI we shouldn't edit articles we have conflict of interest. Be it in good or bad faith, I believe generally editors should avoid editing. They should leave that to third party editors like us. He could had make a request to have any material added to his father's article.

As far as his editing history goes, he first started editing in 2022 see here . If you see his edits thereafter all of them are unsourced and most likely come under WP:OR. He then edited again in 2023 see , by this time he was already warned. But he still tries to ignore the warning and continues with his editing. His last edit was in 2024 .

I wouldn't had a problem if he did this additions to some other article other than his father's. Knowing the COI rules, I think he should be blocked. We never know when his editing behaviour might be a much problem for us in the near future. Especially considering the article's low value for editorial oversight. Rejoy(talk) 11:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd say that's enough repeat violations that Armandogoa should be pblocked from the article, and only allowed to suggest edits on the Talk page. It's not enough for a site block. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's worth pointing out that this account has made only 39 edits over a period of more than 4 years, and the most recent one was nearly 3 months before this report was filed unless there are deleted edits I'm not privy to. COI or not (and I agree with the initial poster that there's a COI), I think WP:BITE is worth keeping in mind here. --Richard Yin (talk) 09:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Rescinding. 39 edits isn't a lot, but 4 years is a long time. --Richard Yin (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Uncivil behavior

@Jasper Deng: has been continually bludgeoning a conversation about a page rename, casting unsupported aspersions, acting uncivilly, and biting newcomers (me).

Teahouse

During a lively discussion about a page rename, it occurred to me that I might be able to improve this encyclopedia by starting a conversations that could POTENTIALLY lead to future guidance or policy regarding how to name natural disaster articles. So I went to the teahouse to ask how I can start a conversation about that.

They followed me to the teahouse and:

• Bludgeoned me
• casted aspersions it is frowned upon to post about an ongoing decision making discussion elsewhere (unless it is to raise serious misconduct concerns) as it could be considered WP:CANVASSING, particularly when the incipient consensus is leaning against your position You'll note that my post in the teahouse was asking how to start a conversation about potential future policy improvements, not at all about the ongoing conversation. And even if it were, the practice is quite common on noticeboards, why would it be any different in the teahouse such that it would be WP:CANVASSING?

In the process they said Don't overthink this to me.

To which I replied Please do not patronize me by suggesting I am overthinking this, and please don't WP:BLUDGEON me by responding to every comment I've made to someone else regarding this.

• They then willfully disrespected me by again saying in part I'm afraid you are overthinking it
• tried to intimidate me because of their number of edits and made continued, unsupported, exaggerated claims of misconduct against me Don't cast the WP:ASPERSION of "willful disrespect".

Talk page

Back on the talk page, they:

• Once again bludgeoned the process by replying to my vote
• Accused me of moving the goalposts
• Bludgeoned another editor as well
• Collapsed their bludgeoning with a close note that they agree (with themself?) that their comments were more than necessary after taking a second look

Just recently I noticed they continued to reply to others' votes that went against their POV

So I warned them to stop bludgeoning on their talk page

Rather than replying, they deleted it from their talk page. In the edit note, they:

• Again tried to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor As someone who is still rather inexperienced you should not be attempting to warn experienced editors like me.

• Cast aspersions and threatened me with a block Your comment here is grossly uncivil and if you ever comment like this again you will be the one considered for a block.

They then left a message on my talk page:

• Casting aspersions and threatening me with a block again Posting that WP:SHOUTING on my talk page is grossly uncivil and unwarranted and will get you blocked the next time you do that.
• And again attempted to intimidate me because of their status as an experienced editor But you are in absolutely no position to attempt to enjoin me from further participation in that process. You do not understand the policies and guidelines you're trying to warn me about; don't pretend that you do (especially with respect to WP:OWN).
• And again, cast more unsupported aspersions in an uncivil manner Coming to my talk page unprompted and without the other user's involvement is crossing the line to you harassing me. Cut it out.

This has been an upsetting experience for me. Perhaps I am too sensitive to edit on wikipedia.Delectopierre (talk) 12:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit to add: it has been brought to my attention that posting on this board comes with the expectation that I am seeking a ban/punishment. I am not. I am simply seeking an end tothe behavior I described below.

I posted here because the graphic at the guide to dispute resolution suggests that conduct policy violations can only be posted here, or arbitration (unless it is edit warring). Further the WP:DRN states it is for content disputes only.

Thank you, and my apologies for any confusion my venue selection has caused. Delectopierre (talk) 00:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

After leaving making this post, I noticed @Jasper Deng also left a comment about me, casting even more aspersions in a thread I started on @Cullen328's talk page that had absolutely nothing to do with @Jasper Deng:

This user needs mentorship as they are flying too close to the sun. The comment I just removed from my talk page and the one I left them at User talk:Delectopierre#Stop suggests that I am not the most effective one to convey that to them. My participation in the RM isn't that unusual and I consider their comments highly condescending and, now, aggressive to the point that I will want to see them blocked if they do it again. Delectopierre (talk) 12:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Both users are right: Jasper Deng when they say, "I am not the most effective one to convey that to them", and Delectopierre when saying, "Perhaps I am too sensitive". Phil Bridger (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger Can you help me understand what it is that I need conveyed to me?

I did not chose to be this sensitive. Frankly it is because of things that happened to me as a child.

It is not an enjoyable way to live my life, and I am actively working to improve my mental health on a daily basis. That said, it is who I am right now. I know this about myself, which is why when this all began I said to myself What can I work on related to this article, where I won't have to interact with Jasper? That's when they followed me to the teahouse. Delectopierre (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

My impression, based on this brouhaha: you are easily offended, but at the same time keen to tell off others. Bad combination. While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page, but at the same time tacks unrelated complaints about you onto conversations not involving him. Bad combination. From the unassailable heights of my own moral perfection, I suggest you both simmer down and get back to editing. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

get back to editing

I attempted to do so, by no longer focusing my efforts the article, but rather discussion of future policy/guidance. Jasper followed me there and repeated language that I specifically asked them not to, and accused me of canvassing, among other things.

And to be clear, as I stated above, I am not the only editor who repeatedly asked Jasper to stop bludgeoning So you continue. Very collaborative of you. "Vote my vote, or be harassed." Delectopierre (talk) 18:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Just want to add one more thing: While Jasper Deng dislikes being harrangued on his talk page is posting one warning on a talk page haranguing? Whether Jasper's behavior is a policy violation or not, in good faith I believe it to be, so I posted on his talk page. I'm genuinely asking: I thought that's what I'm supposed to do to try to resolve disputes, but is your guidance that it's haranguing to do so? Delectopierre (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

These kinds of interactions are not uncommon here (this is the internet, after all) and I suggest you two adopt a voluntary IBan policy and give each other a wide berth. I wouldn't be surprised if every editor on this project has other editors that get under their skin and most of us handle it by choosing not to interact with them. Yes, a therapist would advise against pure avoidance but this project functions, in great part, because our editors avoid others who get on their last nerve. I know that this isn't the slap down punishment that you seem to be seeking but if every editor quit because another editor cast aspersions, we wouldn't have any editors left. Civility is a goal to aspire to but it's not always embodied on this project.

I have invited Jasper Deng to participate here and I'm hoping we can get to the point where you two can simply disengage with each other. Liz 19:09, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

thank you for your reply. I am not seeking a slap down, or punishment. I would like the behaviors to stop.

could you clarify what you mean that civility is a goal to aspire to? my reading of the policies is that civilly is a policy, not a goal. If that’s not the case, then I’ll need to reevaluate my participation. Delectopierre (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I am involved here as a participant in the naming discussion. Also this disagreement among editors has spilled over to my talk page. Civility is not always a black or white matter and there are many shades of gray, as reading all of WP:Civility shows. A relevant passage is Differences of opinion are inevitable in a collaborative project. When discussing these differences, some editors can seem unnecessarily harsh, while simply trying to be forthright. Other editors may seem oversensitive when their views are challenged. I think that dynamic is at play here between these two editors. The disagreements concern the current wildfire catastrophe in the Los Angeles area and it is obvious that the emotions of many Californians and wildfire editors are raw, myself included. Some of us are better at masking that than others. I think that it would be wise for these two editors to steer clear of each other, and for all editors working on this literally hot topic area to check themselves and to avoid bludgeoning, being pedantic and being snide with one another. In my view, formal complaints alleging incivility are best limited to instances when the incivility is obvious to uninvolved editors. Cullen328 (talk) 22:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for chiming in. A few things:

• In my view, formal complaints alleging incivility

• I'm unsure of how else to get the behavior to stop, and I am unsure of what rises to the level of a post here or not. Are there guidelines/examples I can look at?

This is the second time now that I have experienced -- what to me appeared to be a black and white policy violation -- only to be told essentially 'oh that doesn't rise to the level.' I think I'm intelligent enough to understand policies, and it is only behavioral policy that I have experienced to have some secret code that I can't seem understand. Other policy seems to be applied directly by the letter of the policy. I don't know what else to do. Like I said, I know I am a sensitive person, but shouldn't there be a place on wikipedia for sensitive people too? It's helpful for me to know what the rules are, and I thought I did.

• limited to instances when the incivility is obvious to uninvolved editors

• Just to give you insight into my thought process: I first posted in teahouse about a policy conversation so that I could edit without interacting with Jasper. I tried to put myself in an area where I wouldn't need to interact with them. They followed me there.
• Next, when an experienced editor appeared to agree with me that Jasper was bludgeoning, I felt that was a policy violation. But I did not make a post and decided to let it go, so long as the debate continued to evolve unimpeded.

I saw what appeared to be bludgeoning/tendentious editing again, after both an experienced editor and I told Jasper to cut it out on the talk page and in the teahouse. I see now that it wasn't great judgement of mine to re-invovle myself by warning Jasper, and I will try to think better about that in the future -- and not edit so late at night when I'm tired.

• However it was only after that experienced editor also told them to cut it out, AND I saw what -- to me -- appeared to be bludgeoning/tendentious editing, that I tried to warn them on their talk page. They of course didn't reply on their talk page, but deleted my post, and posted on my talk page instead saying that it was improper of me to post on their talk page. I saw that as Jasper trying to intimidate me on my own talk page. Essentially saying 'you don't have rights' or 'the policies don't apply to me, newb.' But isn't the process that when an editor is having difficulty with someone, they are meant to post on that editors talk page to discuss it? By deleting my post and saying they will get me banned if I post on their talk page again, that because I'm new I don't have to right to do so, I felt they were trying to intimidate me, and I experienced that as cyberbullying. (To be clear: I am not making an objective judgement, nor am I pointing to a WP Policy, as to my knowledge, there is no policy that specifically discusses cyberbullying. Just stating my experience.)

But it was my experience, it seemed to be against policy, and I wanted the behavior to stop.

• I am unsure of how else to get this type of behavior to stop, especially after they followed me to the teahouse and I told them stop, but they said essentially 'nah I'm gonna keep doing it.'

Where can I go to discuss wildfires that they won't follow me? This is an important topic to me, along with millions of others. I believe you live in CA - I do too.

All that said, at any point Jasper could also have stopped. And apologized. But that is not what occurred.

• Lastly I'll say this: The disagreements concern the current wildfire catastrophe

• Yes, that is how it started. But I do not have concerns about rules being applied incorrectly when it comes to content. I see a lively discussion. I may not agree with the majority there - that's fine! Good, even. But that doesn't mean I'm okay with other editors controlling the process, nor acting uncivilly towards me.

• My apologies for the verbosity. I think it would be helpful, if anyone experienced is willing, to let me know where in my thought process I went astray in addition to the place I already pointed out that I could have exercised better judgement. It would also be helpful if anyone experienced could point me to a way to get this type of behavior to stop, as well as somewhere I can see what type of behavior violates policy and and should be posted here, and what type of behavior does not.

Delectopierre (talk) 23:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

A suggestion, which I hope is taken as well-intentioned and constructive: if your posts on other fora are as long-winded as the above that may frustrate other editors. Suggest aiming for greater conciseness. Simonm223 (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes I understand and mentioned that myself. I am confused about where I can get help stopping upsetting behavior, and because of the reception I got, am unsure of what to do other than offer my thought process so that I can better understand what I can do better in the future. Delectopierre (talk) 00:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

This is the second time now that I have experienced -- what to me appeared to be a black and white policy violation -- only to be told essentially 'oh that doesn't rise to the level

As the person who was brought here less than two weeks ago for what was the first instance, I may not be the best person to reply but I wanted to give advice on this Like I said, I know I am a sensitive person, but shouldn't there be a place on wikipedia for sensitive people too?

It is easy to get emotionally involved in articles and get down the rabbit hole of being too wrapped up in policies. I understand your stance in this instance and understand Jaspers as well, but sometimes it is easier just to disengage with editors rather than being 'right' or getting the last word. And it is also sometimes advisable to take a WP:wikibreak if you feel you are too involved or it is affecting your mental health (It is one of the templates on that page, as is feeling discouraged). Literally no one would fault you for that. Best of luck to you.

Awshort (talk) 01:09, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

tl;dr: my experience with Jasper is part of a clear pattern of behavior.

As I mentioned, I posted here because I wanted the behavior to stop, so I do not do any sort of deep dive on Jasper's page or behavior. However I saw this comment by @EF5, and I wanted to look at it. It wasn't in the archive on Jasper's talk page (or at least I couldn't find it there, not sure if I searched correctly). So I took a look at his talk page history. It quickly became clear that some of the things I experienced from Jasper are clearly part of a larger pattern of behavior. I didn't want to spend too long on this, so there may be more behavior there, and to be clear, this is only from looking at the edit history on his talk page:

1. He has (judging by other's comments on Jaspers talk page) a pattern of behavior that upsets others. After this occurs, other editors will leave a message on his talk page, and he will not only not engage in a conversation with them, he will remove the comment (rather than allowing it to get archived) with either an antagonistic or very generic edit summary.

2. Jasper has a pattern -- again based on his comments -- of taking personal offense to people he has disagreements with leaving messages on his talk page to try to discuss the issue. In some instances, it appears as though this has been followed by immediate messages on their talk pages, indicating (to me) that it is only his talk page where issues cannot be discussed.

3. In these instances, some of Jasper's edit summaries have the effect of silencing other wikipedians who, in good faith, attempted to discuss issues with him on his talk page. As we all know, one cannot respond to an edit summary in the same venue, leading the editor with two options:

a. Take the time to compile their original comments, diffs, Jasper's edit summaries, etc. and finding a new venue for the discussion, where Jasper may or may not participate.

b. Make a new post on Jasper's talk page, despite him telling them not to, which gives Jasper ammunition tat the other editor did something wrong.

4. Whether on purpose, or as an unintended consequence of this behavior, this has created an appearance -- on the surface -- that Jasper doesn't cause any problems with other editors on wikipedia. Based on the following quotes, and from my experience, this is not the case.

1. @Kingsif

Gaslighting

I recommend not making comments telling someone "no, you just didn't read my comment properly" in a condescending fashion

And, by the way, stop accusing now three users of edit-warring when you are the only one making hasty reverts diff

2. @Elijahandskip

I request that you link that discussion, especially since you are bashing me over the head with it and yet you have failed to actually provide a link to this discussion diff

Jasper's edit summary in removing that comment Request for discussion: proof was provided at AN3, please keep discussion centralized. You really ought to look at your *own* conduct before you cast aspersions.

but I do not appreciate being called a disruptive editor, ESPECIALLY not in a closing message meant to be neutrally worded link

But, this feels like a biased closure occurred, and after all the recent heat at AN/I about neutrally worded things (and no canvassing), this might warrant a message an AN/I link

3. @Kelisi

First of all, I think it is probably improper of you to issue a warning as an administrator with regard to a dispute in which you yourself are involved, and furthermore to threaten to block the user with whom you disagree. That ought to be done by a third party.

I am so sorry that you are not interested. The thing is, though, that you must be. I think you reverted the above just because you wanted to evade those first two points more than anything.

I am also not too sure that you are not violating WP:SOAP — but perhaps that's debatable. You have furthermore done nothing to make me think better of referring the matter of your behaviour to another administrator. diff

4. @Abductive

It seems like you have some WP:BATTLEGROUND inclinations. diff

5. @United States Man

Per WP:TR; I feel as though you should WP:ASG and be careful not to misinterpret situations with which you aren't involved diff

6. @CapeVerdeWave

I have enjoyed contributing here and do not wish to lose the privilege of doing so diff

Jasper's edit summary in removing that from his page you clearly didn’t read my edit notice which says to keep discussion on your talk page

I am unsure of where to go from here, or what to do about this. It is upsetting to me to see someone who has more privileges than an average wikipedian behave this way. Frankly, based on the reception I got to my post, I'm not even sure if I should be adding this to my post, but again: I cannot find any sort of documentation about where to put these findings otherwise. If there is a better venue/forum, please let me know.

Also, this is in no way comprehensive, and based solely on Jasper's edit summaries/diffs from his talk page. It appears as though this behavior goes back a long time, but I have not done a deep dive to see whether it is just his talk page/edit summaries, or other behavior, too.

Tagging those who have participated/are involved in the conversation so far, as I'm unsure if they will be notified of my comment: @Simonm223 @Alex_21 @Awshort @Cullen328 @Liz @Phil Bridger @Elmidae @Jasper Deng Delectopierre (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Let. It. Go. Both of your behaviours have been suboptimal, but below the threshold for anyone to do anything about it in an official capacity. Very bluntly now: if you are truly unable to stop obsessing about this, then yes, Misplaced Pages is the wrong venue for you to participate in. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The only things I'm going to say are:

• Delectopierre is incorrect that I'm casting an aspersion because their talk page comment included a boldened, underlined, and all caps "third". Even here they both bolden and all caps "potentially". This is as WP:SHOUTING as it gets. Their overall tone is, as I said on Cullen's talk page, incredibly aggressive and condescending.
• As stated on Delectopierre's talk page, I already voluntarily disengaged from interactions with them after Alex rightly called me out for the now-hatted back and forth.
• However that does not enjoin me from replying to one other oppose out of the two or three others that were received in the intervening time frame and,
• Therefore, Delectopierre's comment on my talk page and bringing this here is unnecessary escalation, particularly the former, and,
• Consequently, I do not take back the comment I left Delectopierre on their talk page; as many would agree here, it takes two to disengage and that comment on my talk page was a gross slap in the face in view of my own attempt to disengage.
• I remain committed to that disengagement but not to the effect of recusing myself from the consensus forming process on the talk page. I don't own the discussion but it doesn't mean I can't still participate and comment in it.
• I also still am frustrated with Delectopierre for attempting to apply policies and guidelines they do not actually have a proficient understanding of in a way such that they imply or claim otherwise, such as WP:OWN and WP:BLUDGEON, or even WP:SHOUTING as demonstrated right here. That's no longer my problem as long as they do not do something like that talk page comment again.
• I apologize for the back and forth with Alex; however, I do not apologize to Delectopierre since they did not respect my own decision to not engage with them and continue to be condescending in this thread.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I apologize for how my comment on your talk page came across. That was not my intention. I thought I was following the suggested protocol. Delectopierre (talk) 01:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I have more to say but for now I will accept that apology. Whether I'll give my own is going to have to wait. At this point I'll leave that part up to other editors.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I knew it would come here eventually, so here's a discussion I always thought stood out on their talk page: October 2024 (#Reversion): A user came to their talk page with concerns about a bad revert, and to that they responded with "That's not my problem. You should look at the totality of your edit". "That's not my problem" is an incredibly uncivil way to respond to a genuine question, period. E_F 01:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

@EF5: Kindly, and bluntly, your participation here is not helpful. The topic at hand is the conflict between myself and Delectopierre. --Jasper Deng (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Anyone can comment on an ANI report, and I'm giving what I think is an appropriate example of uncivil behavior. Someone uninvolved can remove my above comment if they think it's irrelevant to the discussion. E_F 01:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the inability or unwillingness of either party to voluntarily Misplaced Pages:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, perhaps a two way interaction ban is necessary. Cullen328 (talk) 02:37, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I offered to and did, except I thought they should know I accepted their apology. How does that suggest an IBAN is needed?--Jasper Deng (talk) 02:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, where did you do so prior to your comment on my talk page? I don't recall that happening, although I could be mistaken. That said, I am amenable to that as an option. How does that work if we are both working on an article/in a similar space? I'm thinking specifically of wildfires.

Delectopierre (talk) 02:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't explicitly say it. After my "olive branch" edit I made no more replies to you or Alex and kept to it, and my comment thus said I "quietly" did so. Since I perceive a need to answer questions, I recommend you do not continue to pose them. I don't want to engage in this conversation any longer than you do, and this will be my very last reply to you for any reason.--Jasper Deng (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

1. It's not an olive branch to make an edit with a antagonizing comment.

2. 4ish hours after the edit you claim was an olive branch to silently disengage, you followed me to a user talk page to chide me in a conversation you were not at all involved in. That's neither an olive branch, nor voluntary disengagement. Delectopierre (talk) 03:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Given this engagement, I think an enforced IBAN is necessary. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I'm amenable to that. How do I find out the answers to the question I asked above? Delectopierre (talk) 20:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You got an answer. If you don't like it, there's nothing we can do about that. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Huh? I said I'm amenable to the IBAN and asked how an IBAN works when we may both be editing in the same topic area and/or on the same articles. I have yet to see any answers.

I'm new so I'm trying to learn and ensure I follow the rules. I feel that the tone of your reply wasn't appropriate to someone trying to learn and it didn't assume good faith. Delectopierre (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

See WP:IBAN for answers. Remember that we are all volunteers, so may not have time to answer questions where you can easily read the answer yourself. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You asked two questions above and were not clear what "answer" you were wanting beyond what Jasper gave you. Phil filled in the link to IBAN, and you got your answer from Jasper regarding your other question. Next time, you may just want to state the question you need further answers to, rather than link to a previous discussion & expect us to figure it out. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Unattributed machine translations by Loukus999

Loukus999 pblocked from articlespace. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Loukus999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Despite claiming to be a native English speaker on their user page, Loukus999 has been using a machine translator to create multiple articles for the past year and a bit. They have been warned multiple times by multiple editors on their talk page to attribute their machine translations, which are often of poor quality. They have also been warned not to recreate deleted articles, again with the aid of a machine translator. They have never communicated with other editors on any of the issues brought up, and I know this because they have only ever made one edit to a talk page, and it was a poorly written request / complaint.

I warned Loukus999 prior that after 2,000+ edits to the mainspace, zero communication with other editors and repeatedly violating commonly understood policies was unacceptable, and I would take it to the noticeboard if these two things were to repeat, and so I now have done just that. Loukus999 recently created John Muir Memorial County Park, in a process which was so poorly done that ref tags have been left broken and there is a sentence proclaiming that "The full algorithm is available", followed by a citation to the bot / script that they presumably used.

Loukus999 has not been using translators / bots / scripts responsibly on the English Misplaced Pages, and has refused to communicate after ample requests and warnings from other editors. Yue🌙 00:22, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I happen to be very interested in John Muir and I've got to say that John Muir Memorial County Park is a shockingly bad article. Cullen328 (talk) 02:48, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, it's a direct translation of one of the ceb.wiki machine generated articles. CMD (talk) 04:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Looks like the most recent creation before that is Temple of Nabu (Palmyra), a translation of it:Tempio di Nebo that is still unattributed. CMD (talk) 05:06, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Yue, it would help if you listed some articles you are concerned about so other editors don't have to go searching for them. You're likely to get a better response from editors who browse ANI if you spell everything out and provide links. Liz 04:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

To be clear, I am not highlighting an issue with one or a few of Loukus999's articles, I am highlighting an issue with all their articles. They didn't just start doing poorly done translations without attribution; that's all they've been doing.I don't have to make a list either because Loukus999 already lists their "completed" and intended translation projects on their user page. Take for example, the first two articles they created on the list. Chiapanec people was obviously machine translated from es:Pueblo chiapaneca, with the exact same content but accompanied by grammatical errors and awkward phrasing in English. Same thing with Chimbu people, translated from ru:Чимбу. The problem is not only that Loukus999 doesn't attribute their translations, they also:

• Don't clean up their article afterwards, leaving it with grammatical mistakes, broken refs, and broken templates.
• Create translated articles without regard for past deletion discussions.
• Have not communicated with any editors despite several warnings over the past year.

So now there's about 80 live articles in the mainspace that are of poor quality, essentially machine translated without a second thought, and intended or otherwise, Loukus999 has shown that they do not care about site policy nor article quality by ignoring their talk page. Yue🌙 05:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

If you check Loukus999's talk page, every thread is a message, automatically or manually written, left by editors informing Loukus999 of their editing issues and problems with their articles. They've had a full year since the first message to respond or acknowledge anything, but instead they just continue their problematic editing as nobody had yet brought it up seriously. Yue🌙 05:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

They have no edits in user talk and just one in article talk. I think they need a block for non-communication. --jpgordon 16:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Because Loukus999 has been consistently creating poor quality translations despite multiple warnings, I have indefintely blocked the editor from editing article space. They can create policy compliant, properly referenced draft translations and submit them to the Articles for Creation process. Communication with their fellow editors is required, as is producing high quality, policy compliant work. Cullen328 (talk) 19:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Good block. When I see an editor translating from Cebuano, Spanish, Italian, and Russian (to name the examples listed above) but so obviously lacking in fluency in English, it makes me extremely skeptical that they are doing anything more than blind machine translation, not something we want to have here. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Beeblebrox and copyright unblocks

This spirited discussion has been open for three days. Feedback has been given by various editors to Beeblebrox about their concerns regarding his copyright unblocks. A sanction has been proposed and consensus is against it (see below closure). We may be at, or past, the point where more heat than light is generated. I humbly suggest that we all move on (with Beeblebrox taking on the feedback), and if new concerns of new actions arise, start a new discussion. (non-admin closure) starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Beeblebrox does not appear to appreciate that blocks for good-faith copyright violations cannot be sorted out with an apology and some WP:AGF, is not doing the basic due diligence required when dealing with these unblocks, and does not respond well to attempts by others to explain. Two recent examples:

• User talk:Jisshu#3rd Unblock request, blocked by DanCherek and follow-up by me on that talk page and at User talk:asilvering#I sure didn't
• User talk:Aguahrz#Unblock and follow-up at User talk:Beeblebrox#Please undo by Justlettersandnumbers

In neither case was the blocking admin consulted. In the latter example, the blocking admin asked him to revert his unblock; Beeblebrox declined. In the former example, I had earlier responded to the unblock request. The blocked editor was still editing on simple-wiki, so their contributions could easily be checked to see if they understood copyright; I said so, and was rebuffed (with bonus I have been an admin a lot longer than you, as though length of adminship tenure grants an exception from due diligence). In both cases, the editor was soon reblocked (by Izno). It is also worth noting that both of these unblock requests involved AI chatbots, which ought to be an especially red flag when we're dealing with editors blocked for copyright problems.

This is extremely bad practice, and it needs to stop. -- asilvering (talk) 07:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I think Beeblebrox should make a habit of speaking to the blocking admin before unblocking. He seems to be alone in not doing this, and it is part of WP:ADMIN policy. PhilKnight (talk) 07:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. Per the blocking policy Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy#Unblock requests and unblock guidelines Misplaced Pages:Appealing a block#Direct appeal.

Beeblebrox has said that they do not agree with or adhere to the idea that asking the blocking admin should be a de facto part of reviewing unblock requests, but until the consensus has changed, unblocking users without consulting the blocking admin would be violating policy.

And I personally believe that consulting the blocking admin before unblocking as a requirement is a good idea, so hopefully Beeblebrox will not repeat this again. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 09:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

It is not a policy violation, policy states administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter. Should avoid is not the same as shall not. The other is a guideline not a policy. PackMecEng (talk) 01:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not always necessary to consult the blocking admin, per the wording of the policy, but it should be done when the unblock might be controversial. Beeblebrox currently doesn't seem to have a good sense of which blocks might be controversial to lift without consultation. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Controversy is also often in the eye of the beholder. If one is looking for controversy, one can usually find it quite easily. Especially when policy leaves room for discretion (which it probably should in many cases). Intothatdarkness 19:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• I credit Beeblebrox with putting their money where their mouth is and attempting to fix their perceived issues with blocking and the process, but I do think the blocking admin should in most cases be consulted(with some exceptions like but not limited to straight username blocks or where the blocking admin invites unblocking). 331dot (talk) 12:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that Beeb's practice in this matter is both counter to policy and intuition. Why would an unblocking admin not want to ask the blocking admin something along the lines of, "Hey, is there anything I should know when considering unblocking this user?" Consulting simply means asking about the case to have more information; it does not mean that the unblocking admin must act in accordance with the blocking admin's wishes. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Can we get that explicitly written into policy then? Because it being a consultation to see if information is missing makes perfect sense, but how the process has actually worked in practice for years (and in places such as WP:REFUND requests) is not as an informational purpose, but instead to get "permission" from the blocking admin and, by their forbearance and mercy, will the action be allowed. But if the original admin disagrees, even without there being any extra information to back up and justify that stance, then it shall not be done. Because the original admin's actions are law and cannot be disputed and how dare you even try. Silverseren 19:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree it should be written into policy. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

In my perspective, the unblock policy is fairly clear that the blocking admin should be consulted, but it doesn't state that administrators need permission from the blocking admin to unblock. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I'm very busy to day and have to go but the short answer is that making a user sit there and wait for however long it takes the blocking admin to show up has never seemd like a fair or useful requirtement in a case where there is extensive discussion between the blocked user and reviewing admins. Beeblebrox 19:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Beeblebrox, if the blocking administrator is on a lengthy wikibreak or has been desysopped or has died or refuses to respond to pings, then move ahead with the unblock, noting one of those factors. That does not seem to be the case here. Please discuss unblocks with the blocking adminstrator, as this is the normal expectation among administrators with the obvious exception of you. Thank you. Cullen328 (talk) 19:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

To be clear, since everyone else appears to be understanding the problem here as "Beeb doesn't consult with the blocking admins", I included that information here as relevant context, but that isn't really the main issue at hand. The main issue at hand is that Beeblebrox believes himself to be competent to administrate copyright unblocks, and is evidently not. Consultation with the blocking admin might have helped in these cases, but given Beeb's responses to having these two unblocks questioned, I suspect it would have made little difference. -- asilvering (talk) 19:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

This is the second time the first unblock has been discussed. Is there a reason you're bringing it back here? I'm not sure two unblocks are. reasomable measure to determine whether @Beeblebrox is competent to administrate copyright unblocks. I don't think either that or not consulting blocking admin when there was already a discussion in progress with that admin is ANI worthy. Star Mississippi 21:42, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you see anything in these two unblocks and their subsequent discussions that suggests that he is competent to administrate copyright unblocks? In neither discussion has he even acknowledged that he had made any kind of mistake. -- asilvering (talk) 21:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I do. As well as in their long history as an admin. Editors can and will disagree, it's an opinion and neither of us is objectively correct. If you truly think he isn't competent, there are channels to bring it up. Bringing two unblocks, one a repeat, to ANI isn't going to accomplish anything. Star Mississippi 01:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You know, I feel like I have tried to meet you halfway recently, after admittedly being a little aggressive when first returning to handling unblock requests, but I'm getting the distinct impression at this point that you just don't like me no matter what. Suggesting that a slight disagreement like this indicates incompetence is a pretty nasty thing to do. Beeblebrox 23:48, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't have the faintest idea what I feel like I have tried to meet you halfway recently is referring to. Halfway to what? -- asilvering (talk) 05:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, how about his statement in the first unblock (the one where he ever so kindly tried to pull rank on asilvering after they disagreed with him), he stated that he would not, and did not intend to, perform due diligence (nope, I did not do what you said would be sufficient for you personally. Neither I nor anyone else is bound by that)? Or a little while later doubled down with I do not feel I was required to make the checks you wanted somebody to do? How about the way he dismissed the amount of time and effort it takes those of us working in copyright cleanup to mop up after these mistakes (unblocks are cheap) and, perhaps this is the most important part of the entire situation, has stated that he believes copyright unblocks, and accepting them, are more a matter of good faith than anything else? (we've become a bit too unwilling to just give second chances when a user, as this one did, apologizes and commits not to repeat the behaviors that led to the block). Copyright issues aren't a simple matter of good faith by the way. Work one CCI, and you get to learn pretty much everything about an editor. You learn what what TV shows and music they like, where they're from, what little editing quirks they have, how they like to structure their articles - they're all unique. You know what's not unique? All them want to improve Misplaced Pages. Nobody's spending over a decade of their life hunting down old Albanian history books, finding the most niche tech stories, or updating every page related to a university in Florida because they want to hurt the encyclopedia, or because they're simply negligent and need to be reminded to keep their fingers off the Crtl+V shortcut. Copyright unblocks are rarely given until several warnings have passed- so by the time we get to one, we've already repeatedly told a user "hey, if you copy-paste content into Misplaced Pages again you will be blocked". There's really not much room for misunderstanding there. And as much as I wish with all my heart and soul that we could give these people who plagiarize easy second chances, the severity of the issue and the difficulty in cleanup means that second chance has to be earnt. If we give somebody one last chance not to spam links, or mess with ENGVAR, or write promotional garbage, it'll be pretty easy for the community to tell if they go right back to their old habits, and any damage they do those issues are trivial to fix by a newbie rollbacker. Copyright issues? No- they can take weeks to months to years to be caught again - let alone clean up! We've got like like a dozen editors active in the copyright cleanup area? To really put things in perspective, I'm the newest and I got involved in 2023. We don't have the manpower to spare to do the due diligence Beeblebrox doesn't want to. The only reason the Jisshuu issue got cleaned up so fast is because asilvering was proactive, because @MrLinkinPark333: and I spent a few hours digging through old books, and because I went to pester Beeblebrox on his talk page to mass-undo the most recent edits. (At some point, in his mind, this morphed into I've undone a bunch of their bad edits myself... which I guess is technically true? But he certainly did not show the initiative to do this himself). And instead of thanking asilvering for going to extra mile, he did the entire meaning no offense, I have been an admin a lot longer than you thing. Of course, Beeblebrox could have done due dilligence, I suppose. But if that's the case, then that means that yesterday we saw a very long term admin look at a user whose average talkpage message looked something like

Helloo🙄, The Page you are talking about is "GDP nominal" , The Page i created is "gdp per Capita nominal". For PPP it has to articles gdp PPP and gdp PPP per Capita. So?, You need to review that.

and (in response to an earlier copyright warning, btw)

East Africa City States Existed, You can't just delete an Article even without verifying..You are the one violating Misplaced Pages Terms

and then believed, no questions asked, that they wrote and understood

I apologize for the copyright violation in my contributions and understand the importance of adhering to Misplaced Pages's copyright policies. Moving forward, I will create original content, properly attribute sources, and ensure all materials comply with Misplaced Pages’s licensing requirements. I have reviewed the relevant guidelines to prevent future infractions. I kindly request reconsideration of my case and assure you of full compliance in my future contributions

and

If I happen to find valuable information in a copyrighted source, I will make sure to write it completely in my own words while still capturing the main idea and will also make sure to properly cite it to give credit where due without violating any policies

which is far more concerning. Either way, he hasn't demonstrated that he is willing to properly administer copyright unblocks. And don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of the "you must wait until the blocking admin responds before unblocking" culture, and I think we should trust that all admins have the common sense to deal with the average spam-block or disruptive editing block without waiting 10 days and multiple pings just for the blocking admin to not oppose the unblock. And I think there's ample room in our current system to occasionally override a block, or IAR and quickly unblock. But copyright blocks are a different beast, and I'm disappointed that Beeblebrox's response to criticism has been what it was.

1. I agree with this in principle, by the way - or at least, I think we have one too many admins who are far too willing to block for even the most minor instances of disruption, and then drag their heels and attack admins who unblock, or mislead them into thinking they aren't allowed to unblock without consent, or who resort to personal attacks, use rollback, and levy level4im vandalism warnings against good-faith bystanders who try to help. And as long as those admins still have tools, we need admins like Beeblebrox who are willing to stand up to them an unblock obviously good faith newbies
2. Copypatrol has limited functionality and NPP is not suited to catch anything but the most blatant copy-pastes from Earwig-readable online and well-linked sources

GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I would count my re-block in the second case as more-or-less coincidental, myself. I do think that consulting the blocking admin per policy is a good idea, and echo Cullen's "well, if they appear to have been hit by a bus, then you should feel free to 'be bold'". Izno (talk) 20:23, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah that they were reblocked for socking has nothing at all to do with what they were previously blocked for, so it's a bit odd to see it held up here as an example of my recklessness. Unblocking, no matter who is consulted before hand, is always a risk, but when the original issue was copyvios and the reblock is for socking that was detected by a checkuser, it's hard to see how one can say the unblocking admin should have known about a completely unrelated second issue that required functionary permissions to detect.

The other account was rightly reblocked because they lied during the unblock process, which we had no way of knowing until they were unblocked and immediately started acting the fool, at which point they were blocked again and I pitched in cleaning up the bit of a mess they left in their wake.

Whatever one may think about me not consulting with the blocking admin, these two unblocks don't prove anything besides the already known fact that sometimes people lie. That's just part of what admins deal with every day if they are doing actual admin work. Beeblebrox 00:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

And herein lies the problem: they didn't lie. They did not intend to deceive - they genuinely believed that they'd figured out the issue. Copyright blocks are nearly always done against good-faith users, and while it would be lovely to distill it down to some morally simple "they continue the behaviour => they were a liar all along", its not that simple and it never has been. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 00:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

However one interprets it, they made it seem as though they understood the issue, at which point it is not unreasonable to see if that is really the case by unblocking, as it had already been discussed at length.

That was my point when I originally wrote my most oft-cited essay, Give 'em enough rope fifteen years ago, and it remains my point today. At a certain point the only way to actually know is to give them a chance. While we always hope they succeed, sometimes they have learned nothing, and we block them again. This is how the system is supposed to work.

Neither of these people created large problems after I unblocked them. I helped clean up after one while the other did not make a single edit in the interval between when I unblocked them and when they were found by a checkuser to be a sock. The harm here was extremely minimal and easily reverted.

Unlike AN, ANI is for asking for consequences, via administrative action because a user demonstrates a pattern of behavior that is harming the encyclopedia. I don't feel like that case has been made here and I don't believe I see a request for any specific sanction against me, so unless and until those things change I think I'm done here. Beeblebrox 01:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox it's not up to you to decide whether the community thinks you're out of line. Nobody wants to sanction you, but when users turn a blind eye to the community's feedback that's usually what winds up happening. Please reconsider. Mackensen (talk) 02:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox I’ll plug my essay on this matter: User:Moneytrees/Copyright blocks. Personally, I think it’s better to ask editors to rewrite the content they were blocked for rather than quizzing them about copyright policy. Beebs, I think you know that I welcome your efforts with improving our unblock system, and I think the first cited unblock was a reasonable Good faith unblock, even if it wasn’t perfect (I mean, me and Diannaa have unblocked editors on promises of no longer adding copyvios, and have had to reblock them— it happens). On the other hand, I think you were too hasty in reversing JLAN’s block, especially given what you were told after the first unblock. I think more conversation would’ve been better, and that while contacting JLAN for “permission” to unblock isn’t strictly required, you could have pinged him saying you were intending on unblocking. I’ll contrast this with your comment on user talk:PavKls, which I think reflects a better approach to these sorts of blocks. I hope this is something that can be moved on from, and that you continue to look at unblocks that might slip through our systemic cracks, while also being diligent while looking into the background. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 02:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• No, look, don't unilaterally unblock people who copyvio. That's not okay and it ought to be obvious why. Never do it again.—S Marshall T/C 23:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Beeblebrox, please do not try to brush off the valid concerns that have been expressed here about your strange stance that discussing unblock requests with the blocking administrator is unnecessary. As you well know, this is a collaborative project and that includes collaboration among administrators. Please commit to discussing unblocks with the blocking administrator at the minimum, except in extraordinary circumstances. Two heads are better than one. It is quite disconcerting to read the things that you are saying. Cullen328 (talk) 02:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  In case you missed it, last month I reported at AN regarding finding what I believe were some serious issues in how unblock requests are being handled. In one of these threads I specifically mentioned asilvering as one of three admins who had missed an obvious error by a blocking admin when reviewing a particular unblock request. I did not suggest this was malicious or deliberate or a sign of incompetence, just an error.

  I don't think it is a coincidence that now two relatively harmless unblocks are being held up as evidence that I am incompetent to handle unblock requests. Beeblebrox 02:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I didn't miss it and I think it's why you're maybe having trouble hearing the sensible advice being offered to you by Cullen (and echoed by lots of other people like Izno, Moneytrees, 331dot, PhilKnight, deadbeef, and Elli in their own ways). Whether or not unblocks of copyright blocks are appropriate has seen a number of different viewpoints, but I'm seeing pretty unanimous support for the idea that you've been seeing exceptions that others don't see in when to consult. I specifically highlight Cullen's words because of the clear way he lays out when consulting may not make sense. I write this to you in the spirit of Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't utterly reject the very idea that soliciting comment from the blocking admin can be helpful. I have done so on many past occasions. However, in very straighforward cases where the block reason is obvious and the blocked user admits their error and pledges not to repeat it, I'm at a loss as to what special insight we expect that the blocking admin will always have, but will not share with us unless specifically asked. I can say I am willing to have a more open mind about when to seek that opinion out and when not to, but I can't accept that it is a hard-and-fast rule, because it isn't. Beeblebrox 03:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  As asilvering noted above, the purpose of this thread was not about whether you contacted the blocking admin but rather that you unblocked two users blocked for copyright with huge red flags in their unblock requests. The first had been editing on Simple Wiki during their EnWiki block, where they were continuing to including copyrighted material in their edits. The second was an editor clearly using an LLM in their unblock request, making it unclear to anyone whether they actually understood policy and would follow it. This isn't about AGF, ROPE, or pinging the blocking admin. It's about being inadequately reviewing the evidence provided and not understanding the seriousness of copyright issues.. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 03:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's really petty that this already resolved situation is being brought up nearly a month later because you are still mad that I didn't do what you think I should have, but was in no way actually obligated to do. I'm an admin on en.wp, the main thing I know about other projects is that they all make their own rules that may or may not be as strict as ours. And again, this situation was resolved with minimal harm nearly a month ago. Beeblebrox 03:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Can you please stop trying to make assumptions about other editors' emotional states with regards to this discussion? You've accused me of a retaliatory filing, which makes no sense at all (if you did indeed specifically mention me as one of three admins who had missed an obvious error by a blocking admin, well, please let me know again, since it went completely over my head), and now you're saying that Significa liberdade is angry with you, when as far as I can tell she's simply trying to explain to you what the issue at hand here actually is. Whether other projects have different rules has nothing to do with whether or not an editor understands how to write without infringing copyright.

  The situation was evidently not resolved, since you've done another "AGF" unblock on copyright without checking that the editor has actually understood the situation. For all I know there have been others as well, and I'm only aware of these two. It's one thing to shrug and make this kind of unblock when we're dealing with someone with a history of simple vandalism; they'll be easy to catch again if they go back to their old ways, and will be reblocked with minimal fuss. Copyvio is much less reliably caught and is a tremendous amount of work to clean up after. -- asilvering (talk) 04:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'll gladly concede that that copyvios are a serious issue that should not be taken lightly, I think we all agree on that, but it wasn't actually a big deal with the post post-block edits of either of the users I unblocked. Beeblebrox 05:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I will not, however, back down on the idea that this seems retaliatory. There's not a serious ongoing issue currently causing harm to the encyclopedia, so why are we at ANI? Beeblebrox 05:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  What could I possibly be retaliating against? The worst thing you've done to me is be condescending. (Well, and give me and others some extra work to do, I suppose, cleaning up after the first one.) We're at ANI because, as I said in my initial post, your approach to copyright is extremely bad practice, and it needs to stop. I wasn't able to convince you to take copyright seriously and the problem has recurred. Right now it still looks likely to recur again, so it is very much an ongoing issue, if a slow-moving one. Please, investigate copyright concerns thoroughly, or leave them for someone else. -- asilvering (talk) 05:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  This isn't very consistent with the discussion on my talkpage where you objected to my username/promotion block for an editor that you chose to warn rather than block ; while I agree that I should have checked to see if that editor had been specifically warned (and then I unblocked as you asked), it seems to me that if you're expecting consultation over blocking someone you didn't block, you should expect to have to consult over an unblock. I realize you're trying to accomplish changes to the blocking process to be less, erm, blocky, but this seems a little hard to follow. Acroterion (talk) 03:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Unblocking someone is often, usually even, not at all equivalent to overturning the blocking admins decision. That would be the distinction as I see it. Beeblebrox 03:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Your argument at the time was essentially that my decision to block overturned your decision not to block. While I personally do not insist on consultation regarding a change in one of my actions, it's generally a good gesture, and widely practiced. Acroterion (talk) 11:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I specifically mentioned asilvering as one of three admins who had missed an obvious error by a blocking adminI don't think it is a coincidence Sorry, but as a participant in that thread, where exactly did this happen? Diffs, please. You've been around long enough to know the rules about this. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 03:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Fair enough, I apparently misremembered. asilvering was very upset by what I said but was not one of the admins I specifically mentioned in that case. Beeblebrox 05:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I confess that I am totally bewildered about why a highly experienced adminstrator is behaving in what appears to me to be a haughty and tone deaf manner. Cullen328 (talk) 05:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Beebs doesn't seem to be the only one behaving in a "haughty and tone deaf manner." Everyone on this thread frankly seemed to be going in for their pound of flesh. I thought this was supposed to be a "collaborative community," not a flock of vultures circling a fresh carcass. Insanityclown1 (talk) 08:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Intothatdarkness 16:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

+1. The level of the temperature here seems FAR higher than what should be merited by the complaint. ⇒SWATJester 00:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Those on the "other side" are insisting this is not personal or in any way a reaction to the previous AN threads I opened last month around issues I saw at RFU, but I can't recall a previous time that I saw several admins insist another admin was incompetent because of granting one unblock request that went slightly awry and was quickly and thoroughly dealt with, with assistance from the unblocking admin. If that is now sanctionable behavior, we'd lose a boatload of admins pretty quick.

I can agree to consider copyvio-related unblock requests more carefully, but I utterly reject the premise that this one unblock demonstrates incompetence. Beeblebrox 19:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

"It does bother me a little that somehow the users who seem the most upset with me are all women."

Um, excuse me? We're going to circle back round to the copyright thing, but what the ever living fuck is this comment? First of, as far as I know, you're wrong dk why you've imprinted on asilvering = fem, but they don't discloser their gender on or offwiki. Secondly, again, why is this relevant? Like, seriously. Not looking to turn this into Beeblebrox and WPO part 2: Electric Boogaloo, (if you say something about how that's just how you talk to your mates in a bar, I shall scream) but how is my gender relevant to this issue??? GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 21:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox I was mad and forgot to ping. scroll up. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you've got my intent there backwards.It bothers me because I don't like the idea that somehow my actions or attitude are specifically offensive to women. However, I'm unable to see why that would be. Just a little self-doubt is all. Beeblebrox 21:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Pray tell what intent I've ascribed to your actions, because as far as I know, I just don't get why you feel the need to comment on my gender at all.

@S Marshall I give up. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 23:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox, I don't know what users you were talking about when you wrote that comment, but the only person I see in this thread that I can confidently describe as "upset" is GLL, and what upset her was your comment about upsetting women. I think we can probably chalk that one up to a mutual misunderstanding and let it drop. I'm glad you've agreed to consider copyvio-related unblock requests more carefully. -- asilvering (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

GLL, you have not explicitly said what you thought or imagined the intent was, but you did explicitly say I was mad. So I don't think I'm way out in left field in saying that you seem to believe my intent to be something other than what I was trying to express, which I have already endeavored to explain. You may chose to believe my explanation or not as you see fit. Beeblebrox 00:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

GLL, you're right to give up. Let it go. Beebs has got the message. He can count how many people are cross and he knows the maths at recall. He gets it. We won't see this again.

If you're looking for a clearer admission of error, you won't get one. People have pride.

If you're looking for an explanation of the women comment, assume that of all the possible meanings, Beebs meant the least creepy.

This is all over. Someone will close it soon.—S Marshall T/C 00:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

somehow my actions or attitude are specifically offensive to women. However, I'm unable to see why that would be. Going out of one's way to make commentary along the lines of 'the people who are mad at me are all women' (the users who seem the most upset with me are all women.") (especially when it ends up not being knowably true) seems pretty plainly sexist; it resonates with a long history of dismissing criticism on the grounds that the critics are women and therefore excessively emotional. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You couldn't be more wrong. I was pondering what I had done so wrong that women in particular seemed to be upset with my actions, so that I could avoid doing so again but I wasn't able to parse out exactly what that might be.

That it is now having the opposite effect is a terrible and unintended result, and another reminder that sometimes I should just keep some of my thoughts in my head, lest they be grossly misunderstood if I write them down. Beeblebrox 01:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

On one hand, I agree with the sentiment that it's rather asinine when one of the parties to a noticeboard dispute types half of their statements to their interlocutors here, and slaps the other half on a forum where some crazy guy will stalk your family if you mention its existence. However, this seems to me like a completely inverted reading of Beebs' post:

It does bother me a little that somehow the users who seem the most upset with me are all women. I don't think I've acted like an overbearing mansplainer, and I certainly have not talked down to anyone due to their gender.

It seems clear to me that this post is bemoaning that his attempts to be intersectionally uplifting and Mind The Gap and etc have not succeeded, as opposed to being some sort of misog chud missive. jp×g🗯️ 00:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Man, I thought wikipedia admins were supposed to be civil to others jpxg. It appears I was mistaken. How disappointing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 02:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Welcome to the fun house. And they wonder why people leave... Intothatdarkness 02:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

two admins behaving in an uncivil manner towards their colleague. That is indeed disappointing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 02:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are referring to with this comment. Do you think I am obliged to stand by and say nothing when a person's words are misinterpreted? What are you talking about? Did you respond to the wrong post? jp×g🗯️ 04:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I definitely did respond to the right post. I would not regard referring to someone as a "chud" as being particularly civil. Disappointed that you don't see the issue with your own post.Insanityclown1 (talk) 04:59, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I did not do that. Please see wikt:as opposed to. jp×g🗯️ 05:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I will retract my statements having had a better chance to read what you said. Not a big fan of your snark though. Insanityclown1 (talk) 05:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would encourage Beeblebrox to read this thread and maybe recalibrate his approach to copyright blocks. By the tenor of that thread and this thread, I think the prevailing attitude surrounding copyright unblocks is that the threshold for an unblock is becoming way higher (and I think it's a correct one in my view). No opinion as to disallowing Beebs to accept copyright-related unblocks, but I think he needs to be more careful with them. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 01:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Can't both things be true: (a) that we need to protect the encyclopaedia (and the community), and copyvio is one of the more obvious cases; AND (b) that admins trying to do (a) sometimes make mistakes and spotting them is also part of the cluefulness the community expects in an admin? (It's not as if all the blocked editors are convicted murderers seeking to get out of jail, or as if all blocking admins have Papal infallibility. Or as if the unblock request system is designed to be a consensus discussion.) Yngvadottir (talk) 04:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: Beeblebrox is not allowed to accept copyright-related unblock requests

There is consensus against the proposed sanction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

When dealing with copyright unblocks, Beeblebrox has expressed intent to test whether somebody really understands copyright, not by doing due diligence or consulting with those more experienced in copyright issues than he, but by unblocking the editor. This has so far resulted in the unblock of one editor where there was clear evidence that they had continued good-faith plagiarism on other English-language WMF projects, and one on the say-so of a chatbot. He has cast aspersions and insulted both good-faith users who don't understand copyright and editors who bring up issues with his actions. While acknowledging that these two situations ended up being fixed relatively quickly, that was only due to the proactive behaviour of third-parties. Under normal circumstances these would be chocked up as a learning experience, but his comments make it very clear that he has not learnt anything, that he is unwilling to listen to the concerns of other editors, and will continue to act in the same manner going forward. Therefore, I am proposing that Beeblebrox is not allowed to unblock editors blocked for copyright infringement or plagiarism.

1. "I have a long-held belief that unblocking is, in many cases, preferable to talking it out for several days or weeks, and that unblocks are cheap"
2. Jisshu unblock, December 2024
3. Aguahrz unblock, January 2025
4. "they lied during the unblock process"
5. "Suggesting that a slight disagreement like this indicates incompetence is a pretty nasty thing to do"
6. "It's really petty that this already resolved situation is being brought up nearly a month later because you are still mad"
7. "I will not, however, back down on the idea that this seems retaliatory"
8. "it wasn't actually a big deal"
9. "these two unblocks don't prove anything besides the already known fact that sometimes people lie"
10. "There's not a serious ongoing issue currently causing harm to the encyclopedia, so why are we at ANI?"
11. "I think that, realistically, the bar is somewhere around 'a grasp of the general idea that you can't just copy someone else's work and repost it like it was your own work'"

GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 08:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. I'm not a fan of holding editors responsible for the actions of others, but Beeblebrox's ideas about when copyright unblocks are needed (see the last footnote) are not great. This is the least invasive action I can think of that will limit disruption to Misplaced Pages articles. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 08:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• oppose is this the Spanish Inquisition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Insanityclown1 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Premature. Give the man a chance to read the room and think. He will figure out that "I've upset Asilvering in the past, therefore Asilvering is wrong" is not a workable defence, and then he'll get the message. Beebs is on a crusade to improve our unblocking response, and that's a good thing; he's just got to recalibrate about who he unblocks. He will. Beebs isn't stupid, he's just bad at listening.—S Marshall T/C 09:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

A wise man. scope_creep 10:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hopefully you're right, S Marshall, and it wouldn't surprise me that much if everything you've said is true. The very impressive way he's making this all about whether to consult the unblocking or not isn't exactly giving me faith that he'll figure it out any time soon, but fingers crossed! And, I know I'm repeating myself here but for the avoidance of doubt I don't give a monkey's about consulting the blocking administrator in every case, I agree with most of the crusade and did a decent amount of legwork which enabled me to bring up examples in the previous AN thread of unblocks gone bad . @Beeblebrox, as somebody who is also one-track minded to a fault, please listen to S Marshall, read the words I am typing, and at least try understand where I and the others in this thread are coming from, because it's not what you think. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 01:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I fully understand that the original intent of this thread was not "he didn't consult with the blocking admin" but rather "he sucks at reviewing copyvio-related unblock requests". I don't think it was me alone who changed the focus to consulting the blocking admin, the other respondents, mostly admins themselves, did that.

Putting that issue aside, and I mean in this in the nicest possible way, if you're going to try and get somebody sanctioned for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, you need to come locked and loaded with a lot more than what has been presented here, which realistically, is one single unblock. If you're going to call someone incompetent at anything, you should probably anticipate a strong response to such a personal and insulting accusation.

I'm open to criticism, but this sanction attempt was so thin on evidence that it's practically invisible.

Don't get me wrong, I think you're ok in general but this proposed sanction was a very premature gross overreaction. Beeblebrox 02:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

On consulting the blocking admin, I'm 100% with you. I've been the victim of a bad block (by a sitting arb, in fact). That's how I know that the character who blocked me shouldn't ever become the gatekeeper for my unblock. I'm passionate about that on principle.

I think it's a great pity that some people have made this into a thread about consulting the blocker. I don't blame you for focusing on that side of it because on that side of it you're in the right, at a fundamental, ethical level.

But on unblocking copyright violating editors, your position is not exactly akin to Gibraltar.—S Marshall T/C 11:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support, mostly per Beeblebrox's own comment above: Unlike AN, ANI is for asking for consequences, via administrative action because a user demonstrates a pattern of behavior that is harming the encyclopedia. I don't feel like that case has been made here and I don't believe I see a request for any specific sanction against me, so unless and until those things change I think I'm done here. Since that comment, he's continued to not get it, and to impugn the motives of basically everyone who disagrees with him. Mackensen (talk) 12:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose premature and unnecessary. Two blocksunblocks, one of which was hashed out a month ago, does not prove a large issue that merits consequences. Star Mississippi 13:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose as too soon. Let's see how things turn out... - UtherSRG (talk)
• Oppose. Several people, including myself, observed in 2024 that our requests for unblock process had become schlerotic and was suffering from undue months-long delays, largely as the result of too few administrators working CAT:RFU. More recently the situation has improved substantially, with Beeblebrox being responsible for much of the improvement, both by pointing attention to the problem (albeit not always in the same words I would use), and by himself acting on many of the pending requests. I do agree that consulting the initial blocking admin is typically appropriate and can lead to important information (for example, in one recent case I reviewed, I was puzzled at a block that appeared to be an overreaction to a single dubious edit, but I had forgotten to check the user's edit-filter log, which made the reason crystal-clear). I can also agree, based on several people's observations above, that copyvio blocks can call for a little extra caution, and that these days we now need to be scrutinizing unblock requests for insincere chatbot-generated garbage. Nonetheless, the overall pattern of improved admin responsiveness to unblock requests should continue and Beeblebrox should continue to be part of the solution. I also commend the other admins who have pitched in recently in this area; to state the obvious, the more people share the workload, the less will be the burden, stress, or risk of burnout on any one admin, and the more fair will be our unblock requests process both to the blocked users and to everyone else. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose With apologies that I didn't fully read all of the background that led to this particular thread. I agree that Cat:RFU has too few admins working at and I say this is someone who is probably never contributed, but as someone who does at least my fair share investigating copyright issues, I do know a little about the situation. While I think it's fair to assert that most copyright violations are good faith errors, it doesn't follow that most blocks for copyright violations are good faith errors. (I'm not suggesting that anyone specifically said that, but it's a possible take away.) Speaking only for my personal approach, I review a lot of potential copyright violations. I reverted and warned many violators. I don't believe I've ever personally blocked anyone for a single violation. The rare cases I block someone for copyright violations is when it has been repeated even after warnings. In my opinion if you've been warned and still do it, it is no longer good faith. That might not be malicious it might be incompetence, but it then deserves a block. I agree it is best practice to talk to the blocking administrator, and while I personally try to make sure to stay active for a period of time after blocking someone, that's not always possible, so I'm not in favor of requiring interaction with the blocking administrator. S Philbrick(Talk) 17:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose - With Misplaced Pages likely to be playing defense in the coming few years, I'm sympathetic to being extra cautious when it comes to potential legal vulnerabilities, and agree with some of the procedural criticisms in the thread above, but this seems like an unnecessary escalation amid active conversation. — Rhododendrites \\ 17:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support his responses don't inspire confidence. He doesn't seem to care that other admins find some of his behavior in unblock requests subpar. I would expect a more robust response and an acknowledgement to do better. I often hear that admins are supposed to be held to a higher standard, and I don't believe his responses here meet that standard. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Premature per S Marshall (both in the !voting and the excellent comment above). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Aguahrz was re-blocked for matters unrelated to copyright. One example does not suggest a wider problem requiring a bizarre type of topic ban. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose regardless of the intent when openeing this thread, it seems pretty clear to me that the bulk of commenters are in fact upset that I often do not consult with thr blocking admin, I don't see a consensus that these two unblocks represent a pattern of causing real harm to the encyclopedia, to the extent that a sanction is required. I have already said I will try to keep a more open mind about it going forward, you can beleive that or not, but a topic ban is obviously grossly premature. Beeblebrox 19:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  While acknowledging that these two situations ended up being fixed relatively quickly, that was only due to the proactive behaviour of third-parties is exceptionally bullshitty.

  The admin who reblocked in the second case not "fixing my error," they discovered using checkuser that the user was a sock and blocked them. It had nothing whatsoever to do with copyvios or my decision to unblock them.

  And in the first case, as I've mentioned, as soon as I became aware of their activities I went in and helped clean it up, as GLL is perfectly aware since they were the one who asked me to do so. Beeblebrox 20:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've just now noticed that the proposal is "Proposal: Beeblebrox is not allowed to accept copyright-related unblock requests" (emphasis added). So, I'm competent to deny such requests, just not to accept? How does that make sense? Beeblebrox 03:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose premature, willing to accept Beeblebrox's course correction. Once upon a time, different things were thought of as cowboy adminning than they are today, and community norms change. I know that from experience. Andre🚐 21:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose - Unnecessary. FOARP (talk) 23:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose -- I don't think the argument that Beebs is somehow not competent to handle copyright unblocks has merit. As has been pointed out, policy does not strictly require consultation -- it's a "should" do, and there are valid reasons (both the "hit by bus" argument and as Brad points out "our unblocking process sucks") why an administrator may choose not to consult. There's a reason, for instance, that CTOPS/AE unblocks explicitly have a different unblocking process -- if the community wanted a no-exceptions blanket policy, they would have implemented one. I'm honestly surprised by the level of hostility he's getting here. ⇒SWATJester 00:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose This feels like it's about far more than what's being presented here. As others have noted there's a significant level of hostility here that doesn't feel warranted. In any case, restrictions of the kind proposed are premature at best. Intothatdarkness 14:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose as premature. The threaded discussion from prior to this proposal should keep going.—Alalch E. 14:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose I am not seeing a pattern of multiple bad unblocks that would justify this sanction. -- Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose absurdly massive overreaction, if not a solution looking for a problem. Iggy pop goes the weasel (talk) 16:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jaozinhoanaozinho and persistant WP:SYNTH, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:GNG-failing articles

User:Jaozinhoanaozinho has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH seems to be lacking substantially.

• Danish expedition to North America was deleted for WP:PROFRINGE

• Da Serra–American conflict on WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH grounds

• Portuguese Newfoundland on WP:PROFRINGE and WP:OR

• They've been warned about creating hoax articles and continued doing so.

• Warned for copyright issues which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in Potato Revolt)

• Plenty of articles containing only one source Siege of Campar, Battle of Cape Coast (1562), Battle of Lucanzo (1590), Portudal–Joal Massacre, Battle of the Gambia River (1570), Battle of Mugenga

Most recently there's Battle of Naband, which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.

Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. I tried bringing this up with them but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to WP:WIKIHOUND someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a WP:PROFRINGE article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I checked this Battle of Naband which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? scope_creep 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:

• 1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "Theory of the Portuguese discovery of Australia," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
• 2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
• 3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
• 4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
• 5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
• 6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
• 7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.

Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts". Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.

I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between WP:WIKIHOUNDING and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.

I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.

Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails WP:GNG doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass WP:GNG and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example

A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".

I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have WP:SYNTH issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass WP:GNG before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that is in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the original research policy. I propose and support a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating WP:OR, they gain that necessary understanding/competence. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• SUPPORT ban from article creation. Doug Weller talk 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. scope_creep 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support article creation ban. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Ban.

Sr. Blud (talk) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with Gaming the system. Sr. Blud (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored.

I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! Sr. Blud (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I dunno. Sr. Blud (talk) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Lucanzo (1590). There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. scope_creep 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment This is editor is still creating dog poor articles Cult Member. This is the second in days thats been speedied. scope_creep 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Tendentious name changing by MŞ46

Pblock from mainspace applied. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

MŞ46 has been changing Bangladeshi placenames from WP:COMMONNAME to WP:OFFICIALNAME for over a month. They were warned against this on their talk page on 7 and 13 December, but did not reply.

They were warned again on 15 December, and replied to the effect that they were using the official names (which is not in dispute). On 16 December, I made a more detailed reply, again emphasising what the common name is and that Misplaced Pages's policy is to use it. They stopped answering in English, but replied in Bengali on 25 December. In reply, I explained yet again on 29 December.

In the past three days, with no further communication on their part, they have changed names in 80+ articles (from North 24 Parganas district to Schools in Cumilla) in violation of policy and consensus.

They need to be blocked to stop the disruption to Bangladesh and West Bengal-related articles. Perhaps an initial block will get them to understand policy and that repeatedly violating it has consequences. If their fluency in English is insufficient to comprehend the policy or to collaborate by communicating in English, then more drastic measures may be needed. --Worldbruce (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• They've started moving pages as well . I've pblocked them from mainspace, perhaps they will start communicating, if possible. I haven't reverted their previous edits, but could do a mass rollback if necessary. Black Kite (talk) 23:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jwa05002 and User:RowanElder Making Ableist Comments On WP:Killing of Jordan Neely Talk Page, Threats In Lead

RowanElder has apologised and their comments have been explained. Jwa05002 ignored the first law of holes and has been indef'd with TPA revoked. Looks like we're done here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This occurred on the Killing of Jordan Neely, on the talk page section of Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely#Threats in the lead. @RowanElder decided they could say I couldn't ask for civility in a discussion after it became what I found uncivil. This discussion was already ended. They made comments that I couldn't ask for civility because apparently my userpage was uncivil. They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic and incompetent because they saw I mentioned I was Autistic on my page and then linked to the competence required article. (Personal attack removed) and then went on a rant about how Misplaced Pages shouldn't allow "severely mentally ill people edit" and how it's sad that Misplaced Pages has devolved to it. RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help. I shouldn't need to say more really. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh forgot to @Jwa05002 Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) (Personal attack removed)

• Akechi - typically, linking to specific WP:DIFFS rather than talk page sections is the best thing to do when making an ANI report; that is, linking and , which I assume are the comments you're referring to. Procedural niceties aside, I think you have a right to be upset - the comment by Jwa05002 seems to reflect a very ugly attitude toward mental illness, and RowanElder's remarks are incredibly patronizing - I don't think the comment in which they say I hope Misplaced Pages can perhaps follow best practices from special education experts to deal with ways they may try to participate with disruptive incompetence. It's certainly not a personal attack to try to get people help, even when they take it as such and even react violently against the help as if it were an attack. could have been more perfectly calculated to infuriate its target if that were their intention, and when they commented ...you're probably deliberately victimizing people who share your struggle. It's sad to see, but again, I'm assuming good faith and I'm sympathetic rather than insulting here it does not at all come across like someone who is AGFing. I hope the community will agree that the conduct of these two users is not acceptable and make that clear to them. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 07:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Who would have more relevant expertise than special education experts, here? Honestly? In dealing with good faith but disruptive contributions to something a lot like classwork?

  Please assume good faith for me as well, here. RowanElder (talk) 07:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  You cannot substitute your personal experience for reliable sources, nor can you analyze other editors, and especially you cannot resort to personal attacks such as disruptive incompetence. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am definitely confused about this.

  First, I have seen and been told "competence is required" many times and I generally assumed good faith constructive criticism and policy enforcement there rather than that the person invoking "competence is required" was making a personal attack. I have had a lot of trouble understanding what is regarded as incivility and not in this community.

  Second, it seems prima facie that editors do analyze one another frequently, for instance I was just analyzed and will be further analyzed in this incident notice discussion so long as it continues, so I am confused what you mean here. RowanElder (talk) 20:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  WP:CIR is an evaluation only when users have demonstrated repeated inability to edit collaboratively due to either refusal to read the rules, or inability comprehend them. It's not a blanket for you to insult a user by stating their edits are disruptive incompetence.

  Your second point is rhetorical wordplay, and does not reflect well on you. Knock it off. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't understand this and I'm not doing wordplay. I'm genuinely confused. But I'll knock it off anyway; I'm going to take a break. RowanElder (talk) 23:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  As a disabled person who currently works in special education, there are many reasons we wouldn't want "special education experts" (or their suggestions) dispatched to deal with a Certain Kind of Contributor. For one, it's a bit patronizing as described above--why do certain editors have to be dealt with under certain different people or rules? It's also worth noting that a lot of special education professionals, even ones who believe they're doing good things, often adopt practices that can be hurtful or problematic--this is all anecdotal, of course, but a number of my coworkers will miss very obvious potential causes of student distress just because they don't get distressed by the same thing, and at least one of my other coworkers was directly ableist to another of my coworkers behind her back without even realizing that's what she was doing. If there's anyone who can speak to best practices about interaction it's probably people with the disability in question (i.e. the Nothing about us without us stance), but to be honest, in practice, Misplaced Pages's existing guidelines and policies regarding user interaction and editing do a pretty good job of setting the ground rules and describing what you need to do to edit collaboratively in a productive way. - Purplewowies (talk) 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  My comments did not communicate my intent well to this community, and I have apologized for that. I recognize these concerns, and if I had written longer comments, adding these concerns would have been among my first extensions of what I wrote. I was disruptively incompetent when it came to speaking to the sensitivities in this community. RowanElder (talk) 20:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(0) The discussion had seemed inconclusive to me rather than ended. My prior experience as an editor has been mostly on pages where weeks can go between talk messages easily, so if this was a mistake it was a newcomer's mistake of not understanding the different tempo on this page.

(1) I did not say @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos could not ask for civility; I did find it ironic that they would ask for civility given that their userpage at that time seemed quite uncivil. I do think this indicates incompetence at judging civility and incivility and I, possibly erroneously, did not think it would be an aspersion or personal attack to say so on the basis of the immediate and policy-relevant (disruptive editing policy, explained by "competence is required") evidence. There is a "competence is required" principle and I have seen it invoked without violating the "no personal attacks" policy, though I'll be first to admit I don't understand the lines there very well.

(2) I did not endorse or "go along with" @Jwa05002's characterization of @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos as schizophrenic: I passed over it in silence trying "not to take the bait" of what could have easily become personal attacks (not that I thought @Jwa05002 was making a personal attack there, more like personally despairing of the challenge of finding consensus about reality with self-identified schizophrenics and autistics). I flatly disagreed with @Jwa05002 that "this is what Misplaced Pages has become."

(3) I do endorse a general principle that when mental illness compromises an editor's competence, they should not edit Misplaced Pages in the domains in which they are thereby incompetent. I do believe "competence is required" and I don't know why mental illness would possibly be an exception. (I can't imagine what fun I might have had editing in the archaeoastronomy area recently if Misplaced Pages did allow that exception!)

(4) I do hope that the admins and arbs and the community as a whole will figure out good, humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages. RowanElder (talk) 07:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like everyone to everyone to note point 4, I think we should note the "humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages" part. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Should Misplaced Pages deal inhumanely with the mental ill? What is going on here? I am extremely lost. RowanElder (talk) 07:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You cannot diagnose other people as mentally ill. That is a direct personal attack and can result in you being sanctioned. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, of course: I did not call anyone mentally ill much less diagnose anyone. I pointed out that an editor self-identified as autistic without intending that to be an attack. And I won't even do that again, since "assuming good faith" is not extending to "assuming that references to mental illness are not necessarily attacks." Probably correctly, in retrospect for me! But the "assume good faith" policy has been something I've myself been incompetent to understand in its community-consensus application so far on Misplaced Pages, and so I was disruptively incompetent and I've both apologized for that and said I would avoid doing it again. RowanElder (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The user in question has described themselves as schizophrenic in previous posts. Schizophrenia by definition is a mental illness.

Schizophrenia Jwa05002 (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

No I didn't you are thinking of another user I will not name. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 23:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (but I did the work, so I'm posting it) (Non-administrator comment) OP, you should provide diffs. You did link to the conversation, but every specific instance of untowardness you mention should be cited directly, as a courtesy to the admins' time. But I read the whole conversation and don't like it, so I did some legwork for you. They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic. This edit was amended. Jwa proceeded to come in and say I was a schizophrenic. RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help.

I view assuming an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence to not actually be WP:AGF, but I defer. I don't know that this warrants being at ANI or if it's just bad behavior, but the schizophrenia thing certainly deserves an apology from both of them. I'm not involved. Just providing diffs. POST EDIT CONFLICT: I also don't buy Rowan's argument that they weren't going along with the schizophrenia thing. closhund/talk/ 07:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

"You don't buy it"? Where is the assumption of good faith here? RowanElder (talk) 07:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I did not generically assume "an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence" but specifically suggested that their social judgment about particular incivility was incompetent in this case. I would never do the former, and frankly it is an aspersion to suggest I did. RowanElder (talk) 07:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you saying I or other Autistic people for that matter can't pass social judgement? Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

No. I thought you had already made a poor social judgment and I was looking for a good faith explanation that would not be a personal attack. I thought that, if you are really up front about your autism like on your userpage, then you would not feel being called autistic would be an insult. I would never have speculated about it if you were not already identified and I thought it was a misjudgment before I read your userpage. RowanElder (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You obviously have never met an Autistic person because calling someone out their disability and going "but don't worry though your just Autistic so you didn't do it in bad faith or anything". You don't think that sounds patronising or rude, you just didn't like my social judgement and saw my disability as a way to excuse yourself. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

"You obviously have never met an Autistic person" is wildly uncivil, ungrounded, personal attack. I am really lost here. RowanElder (talk) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't give diffs I'm kinda new to this stuff. Thank you for putting in the effort as well. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, you are revealing a lot of personal information here about other editors that might need to be revision deleted. Please do not do that in the future. There are a lot of BLP violations in this discussion so far and assumptions about "mental illness" as well that are distressing to see from other editors. But, Akechi, I also notice that you are spending all of your talk on your User page and talk pages like Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely instead of editing to improve articles. Your own User page states I'd rather not edit Misplaced Pages and rather just discuss disputes, move requests and talk about usage of sources or claims of bias, I'm not very good at source editing which is not a good sign for an editor on this project. Jwa05002 is also spending all of their time on Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely so maybe you both could use a partial block from this talk page. Liz 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I wouldn't mind that actually, also please do remove the mentions of me saying who the user who had schizophrenia was, I realise now that it's not my place to talk about. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am also looking to get into editing articles, though I do not have the time to be a full time editor. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Those comments by @RowanElder and @Jwa05002 are beyond the pale. Stating that mental illness or neurodivergence is a WP:CIR issue should never be tolerated, particularly given it's highly likely that a lot of our community are neurodiverse or mentally ill. Blocks should follow for both editors. TarnishedPath 07:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's also surreal to see the comments about autism in this discussion, you do know, I hope, that we have probably hundreds of active editors on this project that are autistic or are on the spectrum. It's not rare to be an autistic editor on Misplaced Pages. Not everyone chooses to put that fact on their User page but that doesn't erase their presence. Liz 07:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given that the editors seem a lot more interested in arguing on talk pages, I'd suggest there's some WP:NOTHERE going on. TarnishedPath 07:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I made exactly this point that there are a lot on Misplaced Pages in one of my comments about a likely unintended consequence of @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos's incivility on their userpage, which, I quote, included "I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site." RowanElder (talk) 07:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The full quote is "I Autistic and pansexual (I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site.).". And clearly being Autistic upset a couple of people. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

And no the lack of am is not a typo. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Please assume good faith! Autism did not upset me and nor did pansexuality. But "I hope I upset people who do not share my values" cannot possibly be civil discourse. RowanElder (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not my values it's my existence, being Autistic or Pansexual isn't values, it's just how I am. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

At Special:Diff/1269116979 you wrote: "I'm going to assume good faith and cite that user page: that this user is most likely a self-described autistic acting incompetently rather than in bad faith. Unfortunately, competence is required, see Misplaced Pages:Competence is required". I don't see any other interpretation for that than an act with malice directed towards a neurodiverse editor because of their neurodivergence. TarnishedPath 07:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

How about this: I was baffled by the level of incivility and I thought this would be an honorable way out of a bad look for Akechi, since I don't stigmatize the social blindness of the autistic? It was a horrible, horrible mistake but I thought that because autism is so well accepted here, including by myself, that this would be a place I could make a narrow recommendation: "hey, this matter of incivility is a social misjudgment of a kind that probably does have a good faith explanation." RowanElder (talk) 08:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You are assuming I can't make social judgements, that seems uncivil to me. I have just same right to make social judgements as you do. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I was not assuming that you could not. I saw what I thought was a terrible misjudgment that @Jwa05002 was struggling to see in any good faith way and suggesting a way to recover good faith, but without excusing the brazen incivility I thought I saw. RowanElder (talk) 08:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I did not say mental illness is in itself a WP:CIR issue. I said that, at times, particular mental illness will imply particular WP:CIR issues. What in the world is going on? RowanElder (talk) 07:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Jwa heavily implied and you didn't call him out. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I've quoted exactly what you said above just now. You don't have much wiggle room there. TarnishedPath 08:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, autism is specifically correlated with social blindnesses. It's definitionally constitutive. That means that specifically for judgments of tone, like the one Akeshi was implicitly making, autism seemed relevant – and exculpatory! RowanElder (talk) 08:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not social blindnesses it's a sometimes struggle to pick up on social cues (Autistic people display a range of symptoms and some differ), also cool you do think I can't make social judgements. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Your ill-founded judgments aren't doing you any favours here. You should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi and then having the good sense to shut up before someone starts a block discussion. TarnishedPath 08:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Clearly, it is not doing me favors and I am deeply deeply confused. I wouldn't know what to apologize for, at this point. RowanElder (talk) 08:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

For starters, for implying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors. I'm going to assume good faith that that may not have been your intent, but it's absolutely the way literally everybody else has taken it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you: I apologize completely for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by everyone else as saying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors because they were autistic. RowanElder (talk) 08:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(I repeated a variant of this apology below, more personally to @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, and Akechi graciously accepted the apology there. Thanks again @The Bushranger.) RowanElder (talk) 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• It seems to me that we are dealing with the intersection of two issues here. The content issue is that Jordan Neely was misbehaving severely on a subway car, and the intervention of Daniel Penny lead, quite sadly, to his death. Since Penny was acquitted, WP:BLP policy forbids Misplaced Pages editors from describing Penny as a "bad person" or implying guilt. The second issue is how editors should interact during content disputes with other editors who self-describe on their user page as autistic and having ADHD and being pansexual and an agent of chaos. Personally, I do not care about "pansexual" in the slightest because I could not care less what editors do or don't in bed or on the sofa (couch). Autistic editors and editors with ADHD are perfectly welcome to edit Misplaced Pages as long as they comply with our policies and behavioral guidelines, just as every other editor is expected to do. If I happened to state "I am not autistic" on my user page (which I don't), then I would not expect any harsher treatment for misconduct than another editor who claims to be autistic. Since all editors should be treated the same within reason, I do not see the benefit of these declarations. They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment, but editors are perfectly free to make such declarations as long as they understand that other editors are likely to read them and draw inferences, stated openly or not. As for the inherent declaration in their username that the editor is The Agent Of Chaos, I find that far more troubling than the other self-declarations. The most generous interpretation is that the editor is trying too hard to be ironic and amusing, like the new hipster pizzeria in my home town that actually makes great innovative pizzas. But combined with the other self-declarations, I am confronted with legitimate questions about what this editor's goals and intentions actually are here, and I should remind the editor that actual agents of chaos get blocked pretty promptly on Misplaced Pages. Cullen328 (talk) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Do you really think that me calling myself an Agent Of Chaos is a serious thing and not just a reference. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Like it's my name, I know there is an editor that has The Liar at the end of their username do we assume they are one. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm just stating my mental disabilities dude why is this a problem, are you gonna get mad at my userbox that says the same thing. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, I think that you have dug a hole for yourself, and instead of climbing out, you are digging ever deeper. In the simplest terms, this is a project to build an encyclopedia. Why should anyone reading this thread be reassured that you share that goal? Cullen328 (talk) 08:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  What does that have anything to do with this discussion other than you trying excuse others of wrongdoings. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, the behaviour of all involved parties in under the microscope when you make reports here. TarnishedPath 08:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Fair, I am getting into article editing, also how old is my account, what like a few months old, this is getting to WP:Please do not bite the newcomers stuff. This sounds like an excuse but I am trying to be a helpful member of the community and I'm kinda scared that I will mess things up with source editing. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm going to stop talking now. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  For the admins' consideration, this reply is (I hope) partly because of me . So it sounds like they're willing to take advice. closhund/talk/ 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  If you want to be helpful, start copy editing articles or review the recent changes log looking for vandalism that needs reverting (make sure you set the filters appropriately) or anything that directly assists with the quality of articles. If you don't do at least something to help with building the project, it won't take long for others to decide that you are not here to build an encyclopaedia TarnishedPath 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks to Closhund's suggestions I actually started copy editing, it's not that scary anymore. I think I was just overwhelmed with editing massive cyclopedia. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is an interesting point - I posted a userbox saying I have ADHD, along with liking videogames and cats, as I see it as a part of me that I absolutely hated for decades until I was diagnosed recently. I posted it as a way to perhaps ask for a little patience, as I might be more prone to long posts or changing my edits after having another thought or idea (impulse control is an issue with ADHD). In my case, I intended it as an explanation, not an excuse. I still really and expect to be treated the same as anyone else.

  Nevertheless, I angered someone earlier, who weaponised my ADHD and used it to claim I was incompetent and shouldn't be here. Quite a few admins were singled out in those posts, but they specifically focused on my ADHD for an inordinate amount of time. They were also cut and pasted into other people's Talk pages.

  Whilst I'm well aware this was a malicious user and am not ashamed of my ADHD, nor will I hide it (I've done that for far too long), I'm now thinking I should remove those boxes - this is the internet, you can't tell what other people are thinking and it's easy to misunderstand others.

  Neurodivergence is a relatively-new condition (compared to depression, anxiety etc. it's only really been accepted in the past few decades), so there are a lot of misunderstandings and stigma attached to it. The prevalence of self-diagnosis and misinformation on social media doesn't help, as there are those who do want attention and/or use it as an excuse.

  I'm not sure what I'm going to do to be honest. I might remove the userboxes since they're apparently doing more harm than good. I've got to work now, but I'll decide later & just wanted to put this view forward. Blue Sonnet (talk) 08:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  BTW Apologies if this is now off-topic, the thread was moving really fast! Blue Sonnet (talk) 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Blue Sonnet, userboxes are a personal decision you have to make. Just know that many editors don't make use of userboxes and could very well share interests and conditions with those editors who do post them. It's self-identification and that can change over time. I think the one thing you can't control is how editors who encounter a self-identification will perceive you. That fact has caused some editors to simply blank their User pages so they don't have to worry about how bits of data about themselves could lead to other editors' judging them. But other individuals want to put all of their cards on the table. It's your call and just know, you can change your mind about it any time you want. Liz 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz Exactly right - I was aware of the negative perception, but someone who's looking for a reason to dislike another person will usually pick up on stuff like that first since it's an easy target. My workplace has been incredibly supportive so I've been letting my guard down, but that's not really a good idea online. Plus the userboxes were all shiny & colourful so I headed straight for them without thinking!

I don't know if I'll keep the ADHD box since it may be doing more harm than good but the cat one will stay for now, since my furry demonic familiar demands it. Blue Sonnet (talk) 14:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

With due respect, Cullen, I very strongly disagree with you when you say "They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment". This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way and arguably a failure to AGF. Since neurodivergent people are quite literally defined by their neurotypes, this is no more or less self-identifying than, for example, gender orientation declarations; both are useful for editors wishing to meet, work with, and, importantly, take advice from editors who share identities and thus can relate. I second what Liz says below.

I have no comment on this particular situation otherwise as an apology appears to have been made. Jasper Deng (talk) 10:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

If you don't mind, I've apologized and I meant it, and I'm trying to understand what I could have done differently at a finer grain than "never engage about any issue of mental health with respect to competence on Misplaced Pages again," which will be my safety-first default from here until I do get better understanding.

This reply confused me, and if I can ask without being seen to be hunting for chinks in armor or trying to litigate after the issue is resolved or anything like that, @Jasper Deng, was this meant to be a disagreement that They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment, i.e., a disagreement that that particular form of ableist prejudice exists? Or is it a disagreement with the prejudice, and thus an implicit attribution of the prejudice to @Cullen328? The latter did not seem like the most natural good faith reading of @Cullen328's comment, but the former doesn't make sense to me together with This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way since it doesn't seem sensible that recognizing the fact of ableist prejudice would be in itself ableist (it seems the opposite, that recognizing such prejudices exist is often part of fighting such prejudices).

I've been incompetent at judging what people would interpret of my posts so far, and if I'm being incompetent in this interpretation in this reply in some blameworthy way I'll happily apologize for this as well, but I'm genuinely lost and would appreciate some more light on this if it's not a pain to provide it. RowanElder (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

To my understanding, Cullen328 seemed to be stating (without referring to specific evidence, so it's unclear what their supporting evidence for this is) that editors who see someone have a userbox that refers to their disability assume the disabled editor is looking for special treatment. I think Jasper Deng's response was suggesting the following: people who assume disabled editors are looking for special treatment because they disclosed their disability are not assuming good faith of those disabled editors and might be doing something ableist by making that assumption. For a lot of people, sharing that they're disabled is no different than sharing that they're gay or a woman, and most people would not look at someone disclosing one of those and also think the editor is looking for preferential treatment. My understanding might be wrong, but it's what I'm getting from this interaction. Does that make sense? - Purplewowies (talk) 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I do think that makes sense, insofar as I do definitely understand how the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" would be judged to be ableist, but it doesn't address my confusion. This was what I meant by "the latter" of the two interpretive alternatives in my comment just before this. My confusion was about why @Jasper Deng would have said that together with I very strongly disagree with you when I didn't see @Cullen328 necessarily endorsing the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" in their original comment, just the belief "they are often perceived as claims for preferential treatment," which would not itself imply @Cullen328 has or agrees with that perception. RowanElder (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your prior reply, and don't worry about this one after all. I'm going to stop trying to engage here and stop trying to figure out my confusion, I've had enough. RowanElder (talk) 23:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Cullen328 To be entirely fair, the phrase "Agent of Chaos" is fairly common in various forms of media and seems more likely to be a reference to something (like one of these, or this, or this, etc.) than an indicator that the user is acting in bad faith. CambrianCrab (talk) 04:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

CambrianCrab, I readily agree that the "agent of chaos" concept is used in certain genres of fiction. But we are not writing a work of fiction here. We are writing an encyclopedia and anyone who actually behaves like a agent of chaos gets blocked promptly and indefinitely. So, I do not think that it is unreasonable to express concern about an editor choosing to portray themself that way. Cullen328 (talk) 05:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Would you like me to change my name if it concerns you that much Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I get like username policy and names shouldn't imply intent to troll and stuff but if we actually enforced that tons of people would have to change their usernames, once again I know a user that has The Liar at the end of their name but they aren't one. I feel like the most reasonable assumption is that my username is either a joke or a reference, as it is both. I feel like it's not assuming of good faith to think I'm an actual agent of chaos just because my username says I am. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Cullen, I think this is reaching. Just as my name is a play on words, Agent of Chaos is also a tongue in cheek username that does not strike me as indicative of the user's intent to cause harm. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree this is reaching and one thing i hate is when people try to find something completely unrelated and throw a fit about it •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Cyberwolf is fiction so… •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Mental illness can create a competency issue in pretty much any aspect of life. For example, a person can be found too mentally ill to stand trial in a court. I’m not sure why wikipedia should be an exception.

It’s unfortunate and sad for sure, but it’s simply a fact that some people are too mentally ill to be objective, reasonable, and yes even competent.

Obviously there are varying degrees of mental illness, and some are able to control it better than others. But there should definitely be a threshold where reasonable can say “this person is too mentally ill to edit” Jwa05002 (talk) 18:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's not a judgement any complete stranger can make over the internet, including on Misplaced Pages. You could definitely call attention to disputed content or problematic conduct without making the assumption that it's connected to the disability of someone you do not know personally based on what you think you know about a specific editor, their disability, or how the latter affects the former. People can definitely come to consensuses that users cannot edit constructively without needing to declare that it's because they have a specific disability. Connecting the two like that is very likely to instead come across as (and/or be) a personal attack. - Purplewowies (talk) 22:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Akechi The Agent Of Chaos I apologize completely and unreservedly for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by you (and everyone else who has said something here so far, but especially by you because your feelings were the ones hurt) as saying that you were less competent than other editors because you were autistic.

That seems important to say before any finer-grained points. I am sorry for that, completely and unreservedly. RowanElder (talk) 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I accept your apology Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• The bottom line is that every single editor is expected to fully follow our behavioral guidelines, no matter what they believe about their own mental health or what diagnoses that professionals have made. I was feeling quite depressed about ten day ago for reasons that have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, and I have been climbing out of it without letting it affect my editing, because my Misplaced Pages editing gives me solace. If any editor is confident that they can edit productively despite a mental health challenge, then go for it. If your specific challenge impedes useful collaborative editing,then take a break until you feel better. Cullen328 (talk) 08:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I will keep that in mind Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Once Jwa receives this I won't get involved. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for that grace. RowanElder (talk) 08:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's good to see a proper apology here. I must admit that I'm so used to seeing non-apology apologies that that is what I was expecting. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've meant it from the beginning that I didn't intend to use @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos's autism as a disqualification of them. I considered the incivility disqualifying and I considered their comments about civility to show additional disqualifying incompetence of social judgment, and then I intended to highlight their self-identified autism as a possible way of reconciling the incivility and incompetence with good faith to cool and stop the uncivil running conflict with @Jwa05002 (who I thought was also responsible for incivility and making poor judgment calls, such as moving from the specific/local frustration about incompetence and incivility (actually blameworthy) to general/global frustration with neurodivergence (not blameworthy)).

  This I now see was naive and strongly against community norms, in particular viewed as unacceptably patronizing and ableist in itself, and so I'm not going to do that again here and I do find it easy to make a complete and genuine apology for having broken those norms.

  In my friendships and collaborations with autistic people in offline life, I will continue to do what has made my friendships and collaborations with them work so far. This sometimes does include very direct conversation about when to step away from fights when someone is missing social cues, but in my context it is rarely blamably patronizing or ableist to do so since there's an already strong expectation of respect for neurodivergence (and in the rare cases it is blamably patronizing or ableist, I also listen to that and stop as quickly as possible, like I am here). One of my main takeaways here is that on Misplaced Pages, the general patterns of unwanted but de facto incivility mean that there is not strong expectation that people do already respect the neurodivergent, in fact the reverse: a pretty strong expectation that communication that could be disrespect for the neurodivergent is disrespect for the neurodivergent. That seems true (that too many people don't respect neurodivergence) and important, and insofar as I wasn't already seeing it, it was because I was tripping over the "assume good faith" policy trying not to assume others were prejudiced against the neurodivergent and/or disrespecting the neurodivergent (since that seemed like it would be assuming bad faith).

  I don't yet understand how to reconcile "assume good faith" and "proactively defend people from systemic prejudices" very well. Off of Misplaced Pages I just don't assume good faith! It's something I think a lot of contemporary American political discourse has been choking on, and I think it'll be worth my time to continue thinking about it with this additional information from this experience. RowanElder (talk) 16:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hey to be honest this is a model example on how to apologize on and explain your behavior and how you want to improve here. This is what we need more of. I read through your apology several times and can’t detect bad faith from you. You’ve done well and I’ll admit working with neurodivergent individuals can be/will be challenging w/o pretty much whole life experience. I’ve made mistakes. We all will. :3 •Cyberwolf•talk? 17:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you, this means a lot. I was worried it was just being taken as more bad faith when I wasn't getting other replies earlier. I've had a terrible time here and I need a break. RowanElder (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  No you did great •Cyberwolf•talk? 23:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks. Really, I do mean it. Still, on my own terms I don't feel at all good and I should take some time away. RowanElder (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  wikipedians who are in this big of ani and are the subjects, should take a big break this is the most scary stressful and some what notorious page •Cyberwolf•talk? 00:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

While I can't comment on @RowanElder as I've not interacted with them, I will note that I already reported @Jwa05002 concerning (in part) some of these issues about a month ago. People wanting to judge any misbehavior, with full context, may want to read the talk page discussion where I engaged with them on it, as well as the aforementioned report itself, which has specific diffs (all of this was when my username was LaughingManiac).

For full disclosure, since I was fairly heavily involved at Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely and promised to disengage to avoid WP:BLUDGEONING, I'll attempt to refrain from getting too deep into this particular discussion. It also bears mentioning that I ended up retracting the report myself, as can be seen above. Part of it was based on my own experience as a mentally ill person and expectations concerning how the topic be handled, and I found that Jwa05002 made a valid point that personal experience cannot dictate neutral Misplaced Pages editing, something which seemed supported by Misplaced Pages's second pillar, specifically the last sentence. So, I closed the report (with the - I assumed - mutual understanding that there would be no more aspersions on Jwa05002's part), and disengaged.

I can say that my personal view of this subject is that there were problematic undertones both in how Jordan Neely's mental illness had been weaponized by Penny's defense, as well as in how it was being discussed on the talk page. I found Jwa05002's own mentions and utilization of the topic very offensive, to me personally, which is (in part) why I disengaged, since because I was personally affected in this case, I felt it would be difficult for me to participate neutrally. On a semi-related point, I do feel that Misplaced Pages in general would benefit from stricter guidelines concerning "personal experiences" beyond merely dismissing them, given that the manner in which some of the content in cases like these is treated, as well as the overt and rampant generalizations or prejudiced discourse against already vulnerable populations, may well discourage marginalized editors from contributing. But, this is ultimately a different topic that would be better suited for the village pump.

I will also mention, however, that it'd be rather disappointing in my view if a comment like this one (which to me reads like a personal attack, never even mind that the notion that "severely mentally ill people" shouldn't be allowed to participate on Misplaced Pages is deeply troubling to me) is allowed to stand.

EDIT: For fuller disclosure, I will note that I was pinged to this discussion by Akechi mentioning me, in diffs like this one. I'm unsure whether this counts as CANVASSING? Hopefully not - my intent here is merely to provide context concerning a dispute in which I was originally involved in, which seems relevant, if not identical, to this one in my eyes. NewBorders (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I know little about the Jordan Neely case, and have not investigated it in particular, but have to give a few words about Misplaced Pages editing by people who are mentally ill or neurodivergent. I have a mental illess (I don't know if it's severe enough for Jwa05002, but I lost about half my working life because of it), and, largely through that, I know plenty of people with autism, ADHD and schizophrenia. I don't choose to display my mental status on my user page, but reveal it when relevant. I just checked and a have made nearly 49,000 edits since 2007. I don't think anyone has spotted my mental condition in all that time, because I take reponsibility for my editing and do not edit when I'm not up to it. If all the people with a mental illess or neurodivergence left Misplaced Pages it would be a much poorer place, and might not even exist. Some people with those conditions are very good editors, and some are not so good, just like "normal" people. I hope we can accept such people just as we can accept people of different genders, nationalities, sexual preferences etc. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

There are absolutely varying degrees of mental illness and it wasn’t my intention to imply anyone who suffers from a mental illness should not edit Misplaced Pages pages.

in this case, my comment was directed at one specific editor.

its unfortunate for sure, but some people simply aren’t capable of being objective and reasonable enough to edit pages.

this admin page is full of examples of users being blocked from editing because they simply aren’t able to handle the responsibility that comes with it. Jwa05002 (talk) 18:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Have I displayed any of that because you've kinda been urging me to stop being on the talk page for a while because of my extreme bias, which I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. This just seems like you found a more reasonable way to try and get me to stop editing. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Jwa05002, rather than defending your comments on the article's talk page you should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi. TarnishedPath 02:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I went back and looked through that entire discussion (about schizophrenia) and I see that there were 2 different editors besides me during the conversation.

so I do apologize for conflating the two of you (Akechi and whoever the other editor was)

I honestly did not realize Akechi was not the editor who volunteered they had a schizophrenia diagnosis. That’s for sure my mistake. Akechi, I apologize for implying you’d been diagnosed with a mental illness. Jwa05002 (talk) 03:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Cool, do you also wanna apologise for the comments you made about severely mentally ill people, as well as just assuming I was because of my Autism. You could also just apologise generally to the user with schizophrenia they should see it, because honestly it's kind of disgusting to imply someone isn't competent because of their disabilities. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles.

Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles. Jwa05002 (talk) 05:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not you're decision to make and mental illnesses can vary in condition, we judge people's actions not how they were born. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Jwa05002, I know many people with schizophrenia who would be perfectly capable of writing Misplaced Pages articles. We block/ban people because of what they do on Misplaced Pages, not because of whether they happen to have a broken leg, cancer or schizophrenia. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Just stating one more time that I never agreed with this position. RowanElder (talk) 23:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, just in case anyone finds it meaningful I'll reaffirm my commitment to these principles as well. I specifically avoided "severe enough" language because I don't think any "overall amount" would be relevant. I spoke about impacts on specific, relevant domains. Someone can be dealing with crippling catatonic panic attacks or having outright hallucinations offline and also still be participating in Misplaced Pages constructively and valuably when they're up for it. All my evidence is that both have in fact happened in real cases, constructively and for the best. My primary principle here was that editors should not contribute where they are disruptively incompetent for any reason, with mental illness simply not a special reason (and similarly for forms of neurodivergence I don't actually like to conflate with flat "mental illness", such as many forms of autism spectrum conditions). RowanElder (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I just came across this and i would like to say excuse my language what the fuck is this behavior. The correlations in the talk page are absolutely ridiculous and are all blatant attacks. I’m ignoring if akechi is right or wrong that doesn’t matter(to me). These attacks are not only focused on akechi but all neurodivergent contributors to Misplaced Pages. It’s disheartening that this happens. What does schizophrenia have to do with a users ability to edit. This place is for everyone who wants to contribute (within policy of course). those who degrade users because of who they are, they are trying to push people who they deem not to be “normal”. The fucking disrespect makes my blood boil. As someone who made a mistake which was directly related to my mental problems. If i was attacked for That behavior you bet I wouldn’t have held back my anger as much as akechi did. As a neurodivergent person and one who takes care of other neurodivergents. These people are more than helpful to the Misplaced Pages they all have certain content hyperfixations planes, military, cars, racing, boats you name it. Everyone has a purpose here. Shame on those who think otherwise •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Also if you would like @Jwa05002 please explain why you think schizophrenia prohibits users from being competent.
In my experience with a schizophrenic friend most of his schizophrenia is just seeing scary things. He is smart he does well in school. Tell me why he couldn’t contribute •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Block proposal - Jwa05002

I have Indefinitely blocked Jwa05002 per consensus here. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 18:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

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I propose an indef block for Jwa05002 as consequence of their statements at Special:Diff/1269119175 where they wrote

Agreed. @Akechi The Agent of Chaos self admittedly (in these discussions) suffers from schizophrenia. I have the deepest sympathy for anybody with mental health issues, but that doesn’t mean severely mentally ill people should be editing Misplaced Pages articles. It’s exactly as you stated, competence is required. But….i guess this is what Misplaced Pages has devolved into. It’s sad really"

and then at Special:Diff/1269339244 where they just wrote

I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles. Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles.

All of the editors contributions, bar one which was an edit they shouldn't have been making per WP:ARBECR, are at Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and it therefore appears that the editor is WP:NOTHERE. TarnishedPath 05:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Not sure if I can place any votes because of my involvement but @Jwa05002 has in my opinion been trying to scare some user away from comment on Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely, including me where they said (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Killing_of_Jordan_Neely#c-Jwa05002-20250101224800-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20241230034200)

"Based on this comment and many others I’ve seen you make here, you are far too personally biased (for whatever reason) to be making edits to this Misplaced Pages article. You are simply unable to be objective about it. Misplaced Pages should not exist as a forum for editors to grind their personal axes." in what could be seen as an attempt to scare me away from things. I don't know what Jwa was talking about because if you look at my comments on the talk page it was mostly trying to explain WP:killing of to people. The personal bias I can only assume was my disagreeing with them on the move request, as that is all I can think of. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 11:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as mover. I think Jwa's comments speak for themselves. TarnishedPath 11:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support if clue is not promptly obtained. That's not an acceptable statement to make against your fellow editors. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support This is entirely inappropriate and disruptive comportment. Simonm223 (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong Support per my comment above •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Jwa's statement is unconscionably biased against editors with psychiatric issues, and such discrimination should not be tolerated. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support - Insinuating an editor has a serious mental illness is something that is, and should be, an immediate indefinite block at minimum. Attempting to induce a chilling effect with veiled threats is also something that is best responded to with a summary indef. I don't see any reason why Jwa is still unblocked while this ban discussion is ongoing. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 00:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support - what ever happened to discussing Content not the Contributor(s)? I'm with Jéské Couriano, why is Jwa still unblocked?--Kansas Bear 00:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strongly support - I'm still getting a weird feeling to the rest of the discussion unrelated to Jwa, but Jwa's interactions feel very clear cut, particularly considering they basically doubled down when they started discussing here at ANI. Feels like obvious grounds for a block and/or CBAN. - Purplewowies (talk) 00:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Query is this proposing an indefinite block (as the section header says) or a community ban (as the text says)? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Per WP:CBAN, Editors who are indefinitely blocked by community consensus, or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community, are considered "banned by the Misplaced Pages community". So wouldn't it be "both"? EducatedRedneck (talk) 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger, I've updated the wording to specify an indef block. But as ER states above the result would be the same. TarnishedPath 02:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Query Should we let Jwa know that there is a indef block proposal, like on his talk page, it seems we haven't given him any heads up and I think we probably should. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 09:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I just left a message on his talk page just giving him a heads up. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You already let them know they were being discussed here at the very start of this conversation. TarnishedPath 09:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support unless they unequivocally recant this view, because at the end of the day competence is not decided just by what neurotype one is. I should note that if, as it currently seems, the user has left the project, this is going to be mostly an academic exercise.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah I did notice they just stop responding to anything, it seems they had a mission and just decided nope out I guess. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 10:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

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Addition- policy revival and reform

wikipedia:Discrimination (failed proposal) is a proposal that failed in 2009 and I have seen too much of this happening which just goes underwhelmingly to Wp:personal attacks. But these aren’t personal only the discrimination against one person is discrimination against the users of Misplaced Pages who were basically attacked. I think its needed as the everyday change of politics in the us. The draft will be remade of course. This is just my test the waters on potential proposals which I would like to make. •Cyberwolf•talk? 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:VPP would be the place for future policy proposals, but we already have precedent with treating discriminatory speech (aka misgendering and racial slurs) as WP:DISRUPTIVE. Users have been blocked on that basis over the last few years, wouldn't hurt to codify it. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah •Cyberwolf•talk? 17:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you get the ball rolling at VPP I imagine you'd find a lot of people who would like to improve Misplaced Pages's systematic handling of discriminatory actions. Simonm223 (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I’ll start to draft a thing for village pump tonight thanks •Cyberwolf•talk? 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

user:Cyberwolf/discriminationpropdraft Been working on this dis regard my horrible format its word vomit •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That is what made my blood boil with these interactions that they weren't just personal attacks but descrimination against a whole class of Misplaced Pages editors. I think policy here would be most welcome. Please ping me when you put up a proposal. TarnishedPath 23:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Special:PermanentLink/1269831022#A discrimination policy Here •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page misuse (Jwa05002)

Talk-page access yanked by Moneytrees. DMacks (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

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This says it all. Talk page access needs to be yanked.

It's sad though that they misread "<disorder> is characterized by <x, y, z, ...>" as "everyone with <disorder> has all of <x, y, z...> to the point that it makes them incompetent to edit". --Jasper Deng (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Moneytrees, please see above comment by Jasper. TarnishedPath 05:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh brother…. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

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Extended confirmed gaming by Sairamb1407

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

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Sairamb1407 has made 299 dummy edits to their user-space and many non substantial edits to other articles and have gamed their way into the extended confirmed user group. in order to edit the EC protected Republic TV , consider revoking their ECR until they make 500 legitimate edits. - Ratnahastin (talk) 09:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I note that this editor made their 502nd edit to an extended confirmed protected article. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I have revoked their EC permission. 331dot (talk) 09:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Their talk page is full of warnings saying they may be blocked without further warning if they do some vandalism again. That user has only been here for a month... Just FYI. Nakonana (talk) 10:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've blocked the user as a sock. The other account has a thread here as well (lower down).--Bbb23 (talk) 21:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

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User:Rahulbasuzoom not being here and potentially other issues

SOCK BLOCKS Socks tossed in the dryer. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

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Reporting on Rahulbasuzoom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Almost their entire editing history consists of overlinking. They have been warned for this but still continue with this behavior even today by adding wikilinks to countries, words like "musician", more countries while making one edit per country, rivers where there's already a wikilink in the preceding sentence, the "British Empire" on a series that takes place in contemporary UK? etc.

I think the user is trying to get to extended-confirmed status for Indian topics by gaming the system. Aside from the editing pattern, my suspicion is based on the fact that they made an edit request in that direction (if I accidentally got the wrong diff here, then the next diff should be the right one). When seeing that edit request, I also noticed another one on that talk page by Sairamb1407 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (who recently got their extended-confirmed status revoked for gaming the system). I had undone several cases of Rahulbasuzoom's overlinking, so I saw the history of some of the pages they edited and that's why Sairamb1407's username struck me as familiar because those two editors appear to have quite the overlap in editing interests and editing patterns, particularly on Republic TV (where they made their edit requests) and the sub-channels of Republic TV. Examples: Republic Kannada, Republic Bangla, Republic Bharat. I suspect an undisclosed COI for both users, if not a case of meat puppetry or sock puppetry. Some of their edits have been removed for being puff pieces. (Sorry I didn't think of saving a diff for that and it's tricky to get one after I started writing this report, because I'm on mobile.)

This is my first report, sorry if made any mistakes. Nakonana (talk) 21:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Here are examples of unsourced puff pieces added by Rahulbasuzoom for your convenience:. Nakonana (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

And here are diffs for Sairamb1407's adding of puff pieces to the same article: . Nakonana (talk) 21:50, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Both accounts are now blocked as socks of each other.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

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Me (DragonofBatley)

It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save @KJP1: the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Notifying other editors from the wider discussions @PamD:, @Noswall59:, @Rupples:, @Crouch, Swale:, @KeithD:, @SchroCat:, @Tryptofish:, @Cremastra: and @Voice of Clam:. If I missed anyone else sorry DragonofBatley (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Also this discussion: Special:PermanentLink/1269282704#Dragon. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. I'm glad to see that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.

I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. WP:JAN25 is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, then we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.

I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to draft articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.

Happy editing, Cremastra (u — c) 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as User:DragonofBatley/Interesting topics list. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

These are good points.

However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI-like thing may be in order. WP:Failed verification cleanup project, anyone? Cremastra (u — c) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add DragonofBatley (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC DragonofBatley (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• DragonofBatley has agreed to a voluntary editing restriction to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will DragonofBatley (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• @DragonofBatley: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for All Saints Church, Wellington. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see any new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) KJP1 has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you All Saints Church, Wellington. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's a great point, you're right, @SchroCat. Schazjmd (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I responded to @Voorts earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with WP:Geoland WP:Notability and WP:Sourcing. Also conflict edit was not directed at @SchroCat, there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's All Saints Church, Wellington was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from Listed buildings in Wellington, Shropshire and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.

  And Dragon's version as submitted to AfC also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. PamD 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issues are Verifiability and source integrity; Notability; and the suggestion of Sockpuppetry while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.

Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, Talk:All Saints Church, Wellington, which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises Competency issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.

That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. KJP1 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. Rupples (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @Rupples or @Voorts. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @Schazjmd and @SchroCat's earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. DragonofBatley (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the WP:V and WP:N concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).

As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.

There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.

Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.

For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, this needs to be a final warning in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -Noswall59 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).

(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at User talk:DragonofBatley.) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. PamD stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular Crouch, Swale. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (their talk page in July 2023). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point WP:CIR has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)

• Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: 'Woods Bank is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with Dragon's work on it: he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
• Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content here calling it "irrelevant". At User talk:KJP1, PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, All Saints Church, Wellington, the entire Architecture section was added by other(s). However, their church articles always contain something like The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings. sourced to achurchnearyou.com, often as a separate "Present day" section. DragonofBatley's version of All Saints' Church, Batley (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs. (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing St Augustine of Canterbury, Rugeley and St Augustine's Church, Rugeley, both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.)
• Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as here, was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
• Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.

There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note Liz has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that Woods Bank instance (at the end of this edit, which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. Cremastra (u — c) 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to point to WP:Zeroth law of Misplaced Pages: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).

I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at User_talk:KJP1#Dragon and Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity, and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked.

I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.

Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for Chew Stoke, which is also the example of a lead in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.

Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - removing a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and taking an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.

The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, All Saints Church, Wellington (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).

It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.

Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. PamD 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposed editing restriction/cleanup work

I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I've got some experience of CCI investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the 400-odd articles that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).

To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

voorts - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Stalking from @Iruka13

• Iruka13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is a continuation of various discussions happening on the Talk page of the user Iruka13.

I have been feeling harassed and stalked by this user for months now, figuring it was only me. Except, as is evidenced from that user's talk page, it ISN'T only me. As well as my post, @Netherzone has laid out their own harassment. Bear in mind both of our posts come AFTER the user was already banned for a week by @Star Mississippi for incivility to a different person entirely. I don't believe it's only us.

As laid out: one of my photos was tagged by @Iruka13 for deletion around 4 months ago. So fine. Except when asking why, or if the user had read any of the supporting material, I was met by threats to delete work I'd done on the site - plus varying degrees of condescension and bullying. This was largely on the talk page of a now deleted file. Since then, the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons. The reason I say this is stalking is that these images aren't new. If there was a genuine issue, they could have *all* been tagged four months ago. Instead it's a drip-drip-drip. As an example, this file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.

If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream of harassment. They never engage civilly, never explain, never offer any reasoning. Again, from the other comments on the user's Talk page, this practice of stalking, bullying, and condescension is seemingly not a one-off. I don't understand how there can be so much drama on a single six-week period of one person's Talk page. Especially when, apparently, the user has already been banned from Commons for similar destructive behaviour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterspeterson (talk • contribs) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Just dropping a link to my discussion with Iruka here. My block was less about whether they were technically correct, but their complete unwillingness and inability to edit in a collaborative environment despite a multitude of warnings. I have not followed up with further sanctions as at least one admin disagreed, and I haven't had the on wiki time to moderate this. My POV there and here is that being right isn't sufficient, and Iruka13 has to learn to play well with others if he's going to edit here. I am not sure whether this is a language barrier, but they've been told a number of times that their conduct is problematic. Star Mississippi 03:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm also going to add from what I've seen at the deletion discussions (they've not targeted any of mine; I exclusively deal in copyleft media on Commons) that Iruka13 is frequently and obviously meritless in their nominations. A huge portion of them are very obviously spurious in a way that's comparable to Gish gallop and Brandolini's law, where the amount of energy required to nominate them is immensely lower than the amount required to refute them. I'm genuinely baffled that they've been getting away with this. If they were basically always correct and just being – pardon my French – an insufferable jackass about it, that would be one thing. It's another thing entirely, though, to take a birdshot approach to deletion noms knowing there will be zero repurcussions for whichever spuriously nominated ones survive the discussion because WP:AGF. It's literally just a technique aimed at exhausting the other party, and this bizarre edge case they're creating has made me think that we might actually need some sort of limit on the number of noms possible in a given time period. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you provide the redlink to the "talk page of a deleted file" where you said that the harassment "largely" occurred? Administrators can view the content of a deleted page. :) MolecularPilot 03:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I am reproducing the comment from File talk:Kraven-comparison.jpg here:

Do you even know what is significant for an article and what is not? Where in authoritative sources is this distinction mentioned? Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right? And let's be simpler, ok? — Ирука 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

voorts (talk/contributions) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes! That's the comment. The "demolish everything you wrote" bit.

The same user has now been following me around for months. This is exactly the reason other users like @Netherzone feel unsafe. How is this allowed to go on? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons, could you please provide diffs (perhaps to talk page notices that you got) of spurious deletion nominations? voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It's the process of one after the other, after the other.

If there were genuine issues with images, why didn't Iruka tag them all back then? Instead, it's been a drip-drip-drip all the way up until today. This is why I feel harassed. The tagging isn't on new images.

As an example, this file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.

If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. Peterspeterson (talk) 03:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My understanding is that stuff like that lead to Star Missicipi's 1 week block on the 10th of December. Has there been any conduct made you feel uncomfortable since their block expired, beyond nominating your images for deletion (indicating they might be watching which images you make) and them being deleted? :) MolecularPilot 03:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Jinx voorts, beat me too it! Had an edit conflict there (but forgot to add (edit conflict))! :) MolecularPilot 03:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi. Yes. This file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.

If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream.

Basically, why would they suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months, on a whim? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to WP:DRV. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? MolecularPilot 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

But that's exactly my point. All those files were already on Misplaced Pages at that previous time. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged in one go.

Instead, it's tag a file, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another. And repeat.

But why would anyone keep returning to those old images, from a single user, over and over and over?

That's why I feel harassed. Especially because - as with the image linked above - I don't believe there's an issue.

Plus, as pointed out by @TheTechnician27, tahere have been more than 150 image deletion nominations in the last two weeks alone. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Three* but nonetheless correct. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)e

Voorts, you just beat me to it--thanks. But let me add that Peterson doesn't look good either. What Iruka was responding to was this, " There's no point in people drive-bying these pages with that "needs image" tag if, when somebody tries to do something about it, a person *with zero knowledge of the subject matter* doesn't bother to do any reading before rejecting. This whole process is ridiculous." Drmies (talk) 03:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I've undeleted that file talk page so non-admin watchers can see the whole exchange in context. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm reading over a bunch of material, including their talk page. It's clear to me (and I think User:Pppery agrees) that many of their deletion nominations are correct. On the other hand, the way in which they go about things is deemed problematic by plenty of others, and I wonder if User:Bagumba, User:Zanahary, User:TheTechnician27, and User:Kingsif have any additional insight. Drmies (talk) 03:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, that matched my understanding, including them being usually (but by no means always) right on the merits but problematic in how they went about it. I don't really have the energy to spent more time analyzing this than I already have - the other admins watching this page can do what needs to be done and I don't think any further comments from me would be helpful. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Their nomination of File:Diab al-Mashi.png was not correct. The file had a nominally large pixel size, but was very compressed. When I removed their tag for the image to be shrunk, they nominated it for speedy deletion, which makes no sense and is clearly retaliatory. They tagged it as being an entire work uploaded when an excerpt would do, when they knew it was a single compressed frame from a 44 minute film. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 12#File:Diab al-Mashi.png and the closing administrator's removal of the {{Non-free no reduce}} template you added to the file's page and the closing administrator's re-adding of the the {{Non-free reduce}} template originally added by Iruka13. For reference, Voorts, who's an administrator, did !vote delete in the FFD, but for a different reason; the file ultimately was kept, but it was reduced. You disagreed with the tagging of the file for reduction by Iruka13 but, for some reason, don't seem to have an issue with the closing administrator who did exactly the same thing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I forgot about that discussion. I don't think it makes me involved here, but I'm not planning on taking action at this point anyways. If any evidence of a continuing problem had been presented, as I've asked numerous times, I would have blocked, but the allegations of stalking are based on very thin evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Marchjuly, you don’t know what I don’t have an issue with. I still think there was no reason for the bot reduction of the file. The relevance of the reduction tagging is in the fact that “this file should be kept and altered” cannot lead to “this file should be deleted” without some major change in opinion, which Iruka never explained—hence my belief that it was just a lashing-out, as I believe is evidenced by the fact that their tag alleging that the file interferes with the market role of the original work and that the still is a complete work from which an excerpt could be taken instead was completely false and never explained—still never explained, actually. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, File:True Panther logo.png, File:Teniky inner sandstone wall 1940-41.jpg and File:Déluge au Pays du Baas poster.jpeg) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot here, but you removed the tag here and added a "Non-free no reduce" template here; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template here asking for a reason, and you re-added it here. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per WP:NFCC#2 and WP:NFCC#3b, each of which are reasons related to WP:NFCC. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the {{di-fails NFCC}} template is boilerplate text added when a template's |3b= parameter is set as |3b=yes; so, that's the default option when using that template. Personally, I might've just skipped that template and gone to FFD instead, but different strokes for different folks, and, once again, I don't see tagging the file for speedy deletion as being a retaliatory act. Iruka13 can't delete files and any files they tag for speedy deletion are going to be ultimately reviewed by an administrator, and it's possible that the file would've ended up at FFD based on that review. If you've got issues with the bot tagging the file for reduction, the bot operator is probably the best person to express them to. Similarly, if you feel the FFD close was incorrect, you can follow WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

> I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again

And therein lies the point because you shouldn’t have to guess. Iruka could actually engage with editors on a polite, peer-to-peer, basis.

Instead, there is no engagement. It’s tag, move on; tag, move on - dozens of times a day, every day. And should anyone dare engage, they get wikilawyered, or threats such as:

> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote

All from a user who, by their own admission, has multiple bans for harassment. Which is, at least from my standing, why I and others feel bullied and harassed. After all it is someone who’ll openly tell you that’s how they behave, knowing full well they get welcomed back to do it again. Peterspeterson (talk) 20:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You cannot nominate a file for deletion because you think your tag is going to be removed. That is not a deletion rationale. I don’t care about establishing a pattern of behavior for this user—I’m just saying that they tagged a file for deletion because they got annoyed that their NFR tag got reverted, and that is a problem. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet allone of the ten non-free content use criteria. Iruka13 listed two criteria that they felt the non-free use failed; you disagreed with their assessment and the file ended up being discussed at FFD. That's a fairly common occurrence when it comes to disagreements over non-free use, and doesn't necessarily mean anyone was annoyed or trying to retaliate. The fact that the non-free file was kept but also reduced, also doesn't mean they were totally incorrect in their assessment, at least with respect to NFCC#3b. You posted above that I don't know what you have an issue with, yet you're quick to assume that Iruka13's tagging of the file just had to be done to get back at you. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC); post edited. -- 03:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Peterspeterson & @TheTechnician27: If I am going to take action, I need to see a post-block pattern of conduct. Please provide some form of evidence, such as diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My most recent issues relate to the file I linked above - here. This was tagged last week and deleted today.

Again, if the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's the fifth or sixth(?) that's been tagged and deleted since that first one. Each a week or three apart.

Of course I feel stalked. None of these images are new. They could've all been tagged at the time.

Instead, it's drip-drip-drip.

On that one linked above, why would Iruka suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months on a whim? Unless it's because they're stalking. It's the same behaviour described by @Netherzone Peterspeterson (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The instructions at the top of this page state: Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem (emphasis in original). I am not going to block someone without evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

There's no way I could possibly fulfil what you ask.

The point is that instead of tagging multiple files for deletion in one go, the same user has tagged image files of mine one after the other. Tag for deletion, wait 2-3 weeks, tag, wait 2-3 weeks, tag.

I can't see the files *because they've been deleted*. What am I supposed to link you to?

Even if all the deletions were correct - and I'm not convinced that's true - how is this a legitimate way to act?

The harassment is that all these files were live when the first tag was made. Instead of highlighting any issues at the time, Iruka has been following me around the site for months. I'm not the only person saying this. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I also note your responses to two of those notifications (both for files that were deleted):

• Special:GoToComment/c-Peterspeterson-20241112221900-Iruka13-20241112220600
• Special:GoToComment/c-Peterspeterson-20241203174700-Iruka13-20241203131300

voorts (talk/contributions) 04:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

OK @Voorts & @TheTechnician27- I think I have been able to find some sort of timeline to illustrate what I'm saying.

On 12 Nov, File:Kraven-comparison.jpg was nominated for deletion. I'd uploaded in the days before, so OK. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced by the merits of this deletion in regards to the point of the page and the image - but OK.

On 22 Nov, File:AvXduo.jpeg was nominated.

On 3 Dec File:Daredevilcomparison.jpeg was nominated.

On 6 Jan File:Galleryvprem.jpeg was nominated. This is the most dubious of all.

These four images were all there at the time of the first nomination. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.

Instead, it's four over two months - which comes directly after the message:

> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote

Which is exactly what's happening. Spaced out, spurious nominations.

Why would a user suddenly return to look at a different user's work, weeks apart, unless they're stalking?

And, if it was only me, then maybe I'd put it down to paranoia. Except the user's Talk page has at least one other user saying a very similar thing.

I can't see the comments you've linked to btw - but believe it or not, when someone says

> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote

and then starts doing it, it does tend to lead to incivility. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to add, by the user's own admission in 2023, they have

> 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects

Link: User talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100

That's in *their own words*. Peterspeterson (talk) 05:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once. There's no rule that requires an editor to go through another editor's contributions and decide whether to nominate them for deletion all at once. There are also innocent explanations, such as not wanting to overwhelm someone with a dozen nominations all at once or not having the time.Regarding Netherzone's claim of stalking, Iruka's "laboratory" appears to be a place where they keep notes on files they intend to renominate for deletion at a later date.I am also well aware of the history of Iruka's blocks, but blocks can't be used to punish people for sins of the past. I see no evidence of stalking here and I won't be taking action. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, so when another old file gets tagged with little justification in 2-3 weeks, can I message you again? What about 2-3 weeks after that?

I don't even know how I'm supposed to appeal / counteract the tag-tag-tag behaviour. I can't see any justification for the deletion of today's file and it's not as if Iruka ever gives any reason. Peterspeterson (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Iruka has provided reasons consistent with policies, guidelines, and practice. For example, File:Galleryvprem.jpeg was tagged with {{di-fails NFCC|date=6 January 2025|1=yes|8=yes}}. I've reviewed the fair use rationale that you provided and I believe that the file was properly deleted. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Does 170 image deletion noms since Christmas count as "a pattern of conduct"? Because I see this as effectively a Gish gallop where it's functionally impossible for most editors to meaningfully evaluate the merits of each one. Since non-free media has to meet a substantially higher standard for 'Keep' than for 'Delete', this means that 'Keep' voters need to take substantially more time per nom than the 'Delete' ones, and creating such a glut of noms severely and unfairly tips the balance in favor of a 'Delete' vote on average. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Please provide diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. Edit history and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It's a very obvious tactic, I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. Please do comment on other editors' motives without evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

"I have 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects."

Kinda sounds like maybe this user does harass people, considering that's what they wrote *on their own page*.

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100 Peterspeterson (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The stuff in this thread is basically de rigueur for this user: my past experiences with Iruka13 and file deletion have consisted of extremely bizarre wikilawyering, to the point where I felt like it bordered on deliberate trolling. I do not understand why this editor is permitted to waste so much of people's time with obviously vexatious nominations. jp×g🗯️ 06:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. MolecularPilot 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

To my understanding this ANI is mainly about a) the volume of CSDs and FfDs and b) the user's laboratory. I don't think anyone is arguing that the nominations were actually meritless or vexatious, and those who said they were "wrong" may want to take that up with the deleting admin or WP:DRV because it's not like this user is mass-tagging and it's being declined... most of the time issues are resolved or the admin agrees and speedily deletes/the FfD closes as delete. MolecularPilot 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

> and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama

You’ve guessed that this is their motivation - and your guess is equally as valid as my assertion that this is stalking.

In fact, much of various admins’ attempts at justification throughout this thread is guesswork - all of which has had to occur because Iruka does not engage with other users on a polite peer-to-peer basis. There is no “paper trail” to say “this is what they actually meant”. As has been evidenced and pointed out by multiple editors. Peterspeterson (talk) 11:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, I will simply ask you how do you know tags

> were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama

Have you guessed? Or has Iruka stated this anywhere? Peterspeterson (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You're guessing my intention the same way you're guessing Iruka's.

"Revenge" isn't my intention at all. Revenge for what? If the files were legitimately deleted, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to me.

However, the spacing of the reports felt - and feel - like harassment. (I'm being clear that it *felt* like harassment because I don't want to be banned for what you assert are personal attacks).

Even with that *feeling*, I would have moved on were it not for the fact that other people were reporting very similar things on the user's Talk page. And then, with a small amount of checking, it seems that Iruka has admitted to harassing other users at various points in the past. And, from what others have said, Iruka has already been banned on multiple occasions, from multiple places, for precisely that. (I don't actually know if this is true).

So my *feeling* of being harassed was in fact legitimised by others feeling the same - and apparent past behaviour. Hence this.

On the files being deleted, for that specific one here, it was the first time I'd experienced this sort of tagging. I didn't really know what to do with it.

The info page said to leave an explanation on the Talk page - which I tried to do.

I was then told:

> I can demolish everything you wrote

along with what I now know is 'wikilawyering'. You can see how I reacted:

> Who goes onto a page and says "I can demolish everything you wrote" and then cries about bad faith?!

Because from the info page, I assumed that when an admin came to look at that file to decide upon deletion, they would see that remark and do something with it. I didn't even know this ANI process existed then.

Except nothing was done. The admin either read Iruka's "demolish" response and decided it was acceptable, or didn't read it.

And, ever since then, Iruka has continued to target me at regular intervals, leaving me unsure what - if anything - to do.

You can guess that the targeting is to "prevent looks of batch deleting" - but it's still a guess. Iruka could've engaged civilly, in the same way they could with any other user who has reported a problem.

In the same way they could be on this thread right now explaining what's actually going on. If they did that, neither you or I would have to guess. Peterspeterson (talk) 14:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Please forgive the length of this. This discussion has gone a bit sideways, the issue is not whether Iruka13 is “correct” or not in their file tagging and file deletions, the problem is that their behavior is disturbing and upsetting a number of experienced, good-faith editors, myself included.

It is precisely the same conduct that got them blocked on Commons, Russian WP and Ukranian WP. Stalking may not be the right term for the behavior but I do believe there is deliberate harassment conducted by the editor. Misplaced Pages itself defines harassment as Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing. That is clearly the effect their behavior has had with multiple ediors.

Here is a synopsis of my interactions with this user and why I feel I have been harassed and made to feel upset and frightened to the point that I’ve virtually stopped editing.

1. I uploaded File:Zuni wolf fetish with medicine bundle and heartline, carved by Stuart Lasiyoo.jpg. After uploading I realized the size was too large for fair-use, and made a note of my error on the file talk page (I was unable to reduce it because I did not have access to Photoshop at the time). BTW, Zuni fetishes are ceremonial objects made by the Zuni tribe of Native Americans that are also sold as small sculptures; they have nothing to do with the sexualized notion of "fetish".

2. I received message about the file on my user talk. Diff: to which I responded and answered on the file talk page.

3. The discussion then resumed at the File talk page about the deletion nomination. Diff: use rationale where I explained my rationale for fair use. The editor then responded with: judging by the response you didn't look at them; right?, which I thought was rather rude to assume I don't read messages (which explains my response on my user talk page).

4. They then went on the argue with me in a mocking tone: But it is so. wow, your contribution is bigger than mine, it's not for me to tell you about it and wow_2, who am I telling this to?. I told them that their response did not seem very nice. They responded: What I was trying to say is that what I'm saying, you already know. You know better than me. / uploading this image boggles my mind. I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi warned the editor on their talk page.

5. After I wrote a more detailed rationale why the file was suitable as fair-use, they refused to answer my own simple question responding instead with: I can answer all the questions posed in this message. And I will, if it be necessary. But first, please answer the question - and, for the sake of the experiment, let's assume that all the images in that category are really unsuitable... and asked me an "experimental question" whether I could create from scratch a "completely free image", a proposal that would involve spending a large amount of money. Diff: As a volunteer editor, that seemed utterly absurd, and it became clear to me they were just yanking my chain.

6. I then noticed they were treating others in similar ways, for example asking editors to buy a glass basketball backboard shield specifically to then smash it with a rock after installing a camera specifically to create a fair use image. Diffs: (uploaded by Left guide) ]. This clearly seemed they were wikilawyering and arguing for the sake of argument with the intent to annoy and intimidate others. I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi issued a short block.

7. I then noticed on their user page a link to their “Laboratory”, which creeped me out because the strange “experimental questions” seemed like mind-games. I noticed that not only was there an entry for the Zuni fetishes file, but that some of it was actually written in “invisible ink” using the < ! -- template, and included a a number of my file uploads. Diff from January 2: and . I know that being creepy is not a blockable offense but it scared the daylights me, because I have been Wiki-stalked not only online, but in real life.

8. I directly asked them to STOP following me around. Instead they created a user sub-page, replacing all the images with 19th century inaccurate illustrations, romanticized representations of the art of Zuni tribe Native Americans by none other than an ethnographer who looted artifacts from the Zuni people. Diff: I again demanded that they STOP and I quit editing. I refuse to be someone's "experimental laboratory" subject, that is disturbingly creepy.

9. If this is considered “normal” behavior by administrators, well, then after 13 years of editing, I’m out of here. I can not and I will not have a hobby as a volunteer editor in a place where I feel unsafe and harassed, especially from a single-purpose editor with a long history of such behavior – no matter if their tagging or deletions are “correct.” Netherzone (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond point by point here, but I don't think the uncivil interactions with you are "normal" behavior. The issue is that Iruka was already blocked for that conduct and I still don't see how the pages Iruka created in his userspace – which did not mention you by name and which he did not notify you of – are harassment. If Iruka starts being uncivil again or starts harassing people, I'll be the first to indef him. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by multiple other users. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The only two editors I have seen complain about stalking are Netherzone and Peterspeterson. I've asked multiple times for evidence that Iruka's file deletion nominations are largely incorrect, but the only evidence provided thus far have been files that other admins have seen fit to delete and contested FFD discussions. In my view, this complaint seems largely based on vibes and conduct preceding the block. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Having been pinged to this, my experience and another thread I saw suggests to me that the user really wants to delete things - not just that they are being gnomish in the area of deletion for the benefit of Misplaced Pages, no, that they actively want to delete stuff and be uncivil to those who do not share this philosophy. In this way, they seem to mass search for anything that could have a valid reason to delete, even if another another option is better or, as in what drew my attention, even if they have to make up some reason why a file meets deletion rationale when it doesn’t. That is another issue: while their deletion noms may be generally correct because they are seeking out files with issues, their tagging of files that only need reduction to be deleted, their tagging of Commons-eligible files, and their bizarre suggestion to purchase an iage license as proof of owenership, strike me as someone who does not understand Misplaced Pages or Commons policy very well and does not care if understanding will get in the way of their tagging g. ULtimately, the poor tags that may not get chance to be corrected, and rejectiong collaboratoon, negate any positive of being the first person to tag some bad files and thus make the user’s contributions in deletion a net negative for WP. I am struggling just to type this on mobile so can’t or provide diffs atm. Kingsif (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

User:अधिवक्ता संतोष, legal threat

अधिवक्ता संतोष is now blocked. The phrase that they were concerned about is now also removed. MolecularPilot 03:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

अधिवक्ता संतोष (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) See this friendly comment. ''']''' (talk • contribs) 06:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I obviously don't condone the legal threat, and an admin would be well within their right to block. But the complaint was about real vandalism (a claim that a prominent actor had entered politics "due to a failed acting career") that had remained up for a month—I can understand why someone would be frustrated. I have removed the claim and would not recommend any further action. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

From their latest remark on the article talk page, it sounds like you removed the sentence that set them off, Extraordinary Writ. Liz 07:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, as I said above I have removed the claim. There are related conversations happening on the talk page as well as here. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you please notify the user of this discussion? •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I've done so here: EvergreenFir (talk) 20:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• I have blocked because, although they may have had a legitimate grievance, they went about addressing it the wrong way. 331dot (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Just as an update, I have unblocked this user as they have agreed to avoid discussion of Indian law and making edit requests; as they did have one legitimate grievance, they may have others. They are also aware they will need to disclose as a paid editor. 331dot (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles

Citation bot keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on User talk:Citation bot#Incorrect reference dates, however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.

Diffs:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legend of 14 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. E_F 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. E_F 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You can add this to the page in question – {{bots|deny=Citation bot}} – or you can add this to a specific citation – {{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}} – to keep the bot away. See -- Stopping the bot from editing. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that Citation bot did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on Ludlow Massacre, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a diff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is not a user script, but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078

"All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."

-WP:Bot policy Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the person who is using the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Most of these seem to have been invoked by Abductive, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493

Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.

These edits were suggested by the following user:

• User:Whoop whoop pull up

Legend of 14 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by User:Abductive

Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)

Suggested by user:

• User:Abductive

Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates Legend of 14 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It is still about Citation bot. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by User:Spinixster. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You have given the operators less than one day to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can see here the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."

-WP:Bot policy

WP:Citing sources is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you quote the part of WP:RS which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. this diff? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about your use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOTACC specifically says The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account. Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot. E_F 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to WP:ASPERSIONS to me... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.

I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right?? Isaidnoway (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Unsupervised bot and script use has damaged thousands of articles. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix 2022 deaths in the United States (July–December).... XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to Whoop whoop pull up two weeks ago (read here) about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed me to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have continued to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at User talk:Whoop whoop pull up § Checking IABot runs.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. Both should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here neither. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOTP is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.

• Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
  • WP:BOTACC says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
  • BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of WP:ROLE. Now, ROLE does have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple managers", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're developed and maintained by a team of people (rather than ones that can be used by multiple people).
  • Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to 50,000 pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the only people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they were, in fact, approved implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
  • WP:BOTCOMM seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
  • WP:BOTREQUIRE says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
  • WP:BOTCONFIG provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
• Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
  • WP:BOTMULTIOP says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved despite the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).

Whoop whoop pull up 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.

"Both should take reponsibility"

-Phil Bridger at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 Legend of 14 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.

Policy is very clear, don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots" Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. CNC (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

A bizare editing war on the trotskyist organization list

• List of Trotskyist organizations by country (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

In the last 24 hours some strage editing war seem to have taking place on the following page trying to remove or change it's content:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Trotskyist_organizations_by_country DiGrande (talk) 19:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute. As ever, it should be addressed by reliable sources (which usually don't include social media sites) and talk page discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at WP:ANEW and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. Liz 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — Czello 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, this oddity appears to likely be Stalinist splinters trolling each other by adding their rivals to the list of Trotskyist groups. _signed, Rosguill 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if this is really bizarre -- I'd say "Trotskyist organizations getting into petty internecine conflict" is about as predictable as, oh, someone already made this exact same comment. jp×g🗯️ 06:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The disputes between The People's Front of Judea, The Judean People's Popular Front, The Campaign for a Free Galilee, and The Popular Front of Judea? Narky Blert (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Has this editor been gaming to get EC?

GAME OFF Editor does not appear to be gaming the system. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Loads of tiny edits, others unsourced. See also User talk:Religião, Política e Futebol. Doug Weller talk 20:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Would they actually be gaming for EC if they continued their really fast edits after getting EC? Tarlby 20:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Their 500th edit was on Jan 14 15:58. They've continued to make a whole ton of edits after that point, so they're probably not trying to game. Tarlby 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I wondered about that also, perhaps they didn’t know they had made 500 edots

That’s why I brought it here. Doug Weller talk 21:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Right. For experienced users it's easy to see when the 500 edit mark has been passed, but for a new user maybe not so much. To add a single wikilink and then remove it three minutes later is pretty suggestive of gaming. Bishonen | tålk 21:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC).

You're correct, I installed a script that states how many edits an account has made but a new editor would not know about these tools or about looking at Edit Count on the Contributions page. Liz 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I find that script very useful. Doug Weller talk 07:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

We'll only know for-almost-sure if the editor now does something for which thay need the extended confirmed right. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

True. But I worry about the quality of their edits. See for instance Special:Diff/1269418314 which added Hanim to her birth name so it now reads "Born as Ayşe Hanım" in the "Early life" section, contradicting the lead. Doug Weller talk 08:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

(They have the best username, though! Bishonen | tålk 15:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC).)

I think a reminder on their talk page to pay attention to quality when editing quickly is appropriate for now, and this can be closed as consensus against existence of EC gaming. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Doug Weller talk 20:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:MeetSingh316

Blocked. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• MeetSingh316 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

MeetSingh316 (talk · contribs), after edit warring on Sri Charitropakhyan and claiming to be "correct misinformation", appears to have made a legal threat. mwwv ∫_edits 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:مشرا

BLOCKED User indeffed. (non-admin closure) Heart 16:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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مشرا (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is not new to ANI and already got multiple articles deleted (e.g., Sudhanoti), has now started a promotional campaign in favor of jihadist Yusuf Khan Aba Khel Saduzai and his self-published book REGISTER SUDHNΟΤΙ A COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF THE SADOZAI TRIBE, which they also promoted on other pages (e.g., Sudhanoti District). I would support an indefinite block from mainspace, as already proposed by Mach61. – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 08:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I've given the user a {{welcomeen-ur}}, since Urdu seems to be their primary language (diff) and their apparent grasp of English doesn't inspire confidence in their potential as a long-term contributor on enwiki. --Richard Yin (talk) 08:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Richard Yin, for some reason your signature doesn't seem to have worked there. CMD (talk) 08:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Fixed. Not sure why, but WP:TW didn't subst: the template. --Richard Yin (talk) 08:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Also: link to past discussion since the "not new to ANI" link in the original post doesn't point to archives. --Richard Yin (talk) 08:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You are also requested to help new people instead of blogging, of course new people need your help, you and all others are requested to delete any content on the page that violates Misplaced Pages's rules. Go against it and keep the page just with a few words to identify the historian and his book, it won't hurt Misplaced Pages, I hope you help newbies, thanks. 08:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)مشرا (talk) 08:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

We certainly want to help newbies, but "it won't hurt Misplaced Pages" is not an argument to keep something. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Moreover, you should stop promoting that terrorist as "an influent historian" and his work as "the most important history book ever" . That's just a bunch of hoaxes and propaganda. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 09:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

PS: You've been editing enwiki for years, stop hiding propaganda behind the "newbie" label. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 09:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Blocked. I have blocked the user indefinitely as being here only for promotion, for serious competence concerns, and for repeated outrageous accusations against the reviewer of one of their drafts. Bishonen | tålk 15:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Scam phone numbers being added to articles, rangeblock needed

Block applied directly to the range. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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IPs from the 2409:40d0 range have been adding fake scam phone numbers to the articles of airlines and travel companies. Similar issues have recently led to Breeze Airways and Spirit Airlines being semi protected and 223.190.83.251 being blocked. I think a rangeblock is needed, and a lot of the contributions in the link above need to be revdelled to get rid of the scam number. I went to AIV at first but there is a severe backlog there and the vandalism is continuing and chronic, so I'm here. — ser! 12:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

This has now been sorted. Thanks Zzuuzz. ser! 13:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem. Just noting that this isn't their only range, so probably expect others. Thanks for your vigilance. -- zzuuzz 13:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:PEPSI697 bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools

• PEPSI697 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.

My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) a message for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person made a discussion on the talk page about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me this message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I didn't understand what exactly was the issue, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I wish him merry Christmas, he wishes me, everything is fine.

Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is hounding my edits. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor (Augmented Seventh): 1, 2, 3. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.

I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi replaced my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential talk page guideline violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to seek clarification as to why they did this on their talk page. In their response to me, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me this message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see this edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me this message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. This edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.

I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - here they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when he has gotten the same message twice for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of reverting edits without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. jolielover♥talk 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and assume good faith, you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. jolielover♥talk 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. Here, for example, they say: Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. . You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. C F A 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. (1, 2, 3, 4 5, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). jolielover♥talk 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Seeing no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments demanding that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. jolielover♥talk 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. C F A 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.

@Jolielover: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are obvious vandalism.

Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you will stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you might stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. jolielover♥talk 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @PEPSI697: A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page here, here and here. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at WP:YOUNG and WP:REALWORLD because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on your user talk page that you get stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been previously been warned about. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you sometimes don't understand what some words mean, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Response and apology from PEPSI697

The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the WP:PRIMER or looking at the task center? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.

Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. NewBorders (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Tyrhonejustinemarasiganmartinfloresmallari's editing

PLBLOCKED Blocked from article space. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Tyrhonejustinemarasiganmartinfloresmallari (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

@Tyrhonejustinemarasiganmartinfloresmallari: continues to make several unreferenced edits in several articles, despite being told several times in their talk page to post references. The reported editor was also told many times, to use the edit summary, and looking at their contributions page, they haven't explained any of their edits through their edit summary. They also never respond to talk page messages. Is there anything that can be done with this? I have reported this editor in ANI back in November 2024 and they didn't respond as well.Hotwiki (talk) 15:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Since they have never listened nor responded to talk page since November 2023, I suggest a 7 days block with talk page access, the block should specify that they can appeal the block by explaining themselves, and that they should explain themselves rather than waiting out the 7 days or committing sockpuppetry, the goal is to get them to talk. Kenneth Kho (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It looks like they have never used a talk page. M.Bitton (talk) 17:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Blocked from article space indefinitely. If they provide a reasonable response anyone can unblock them. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 17:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Topic ban or ban on creating articles outside the AFC process?

SOCK IT TO THEM PsychoticIncall blocked for sockpuppetry. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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PsychoticIncall (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been an editor since March of last year. As can be seen on their Talk page and on the page creation log, since May 2024, they have created dozens of articles and unlikely redirects, many of which have been deleted after AfDs. Currently, from their talk page alone, I count 29 articles on non-notable poker players that ended up being deleted, and a further nine that ended up as redirects or a merge to a more appropriate article, with only six of the AfD'ed articles being kept. This is obviously a drain on the time of people who regularly participate at New Pages Patrol and/or AfD.

A request to become more familiar with WP:GNG and WP:NPEOPLE and to consider using the WP:AFC process for new articles (and to not create unlikely redirects) went unanswered. 23 articles have been deleted/redirected since then, by my count.

While notability is the main concern, sourcing, spelling and grammar on these pages are all less than ideal. An IP asked about the user's process for article creation (also unanswered), specifically asking about apparently random/non-sequitur section headings (which can be seen still in place at Anson Tsang) - similar seemingly random headings were also used on the (now-deleted) article Malo Lanois article (mentioned in the AfD.) Many of the surviving articles use essentially random terms, with poker players being described (without sources) as "semi-amateur", and "quarter-professional".

I would like to propose either a topic ban from poker and poker-related articles for PsychoticIncall; or, at minimum, a ban on creating articles outside of the WP:AFC process. Bastun 17:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You stated that 23 articles have been deleted since September 2024. But are these 23 articles newly created since September 2024, or prior to that? If they have reduced their article creations over time as their articles get deleted (of which 6 survived), I don't think any ban is appropriate, and uninvolved editors should weigh in on a guidance in creating poker player articles in the future. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

A better question to ask is "Is their ratio of good work to bad any better?" I'd say no, it's not significantly better. I'd support a topic ban or article-space ban; their attachment to the topic seems to keep them immune from listening to requests to change their behavior. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I looked at their user creation logs, and they markedly reduced their article creations after Bastun's warning on 17:55, 2 September 2024, seeing they only created 4 articles which admittedly 3 were deleted. I think anyone creating 4 articles and having 3 articles deleted is not ground for ANI. They made a lot of redirects that were deleted though, I think a warning against careless redirect creations is appropriate, because it appears they listen to warnings. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

A quick check of the creation logs is showing me that since 30 September, they have created 32 redirects, 5 of which remain undeleted, and 9 articles, 2 of which remain undeleted. Bastun 10:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please just block them indef, they not only have massive competence issues but they are a sock of a blocked editor, . I can provide more evidence or start an SPI if necessary. Fram (talk) 09:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, wow - good catch! Looking at User_talk:TheElvisBelievingBumbleBee, it looks indistinguishable from User talk:PsychoticIncall. Note also the use of the invented (?) term, "quarter professional", in article titles on that talk page, a term PsychoticIncall also uses. Quack. Bastun 10:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this is a convincing case for SPI, please start it. Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've started it. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

However, there is a big gap in time since EBBB was blocked until now, so we may not get good CU results. But I'm going to block on behavior for now. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Adrikshit

Adrikshit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has been continuously adding unsourced and poorly sourced content or changing referenced content, often relating to Bhojpuri related articles.

• Some examples: , .

• Examples of inappropriate summaries: , .

• Examples of inappropriate use of templates: , , , , .

• Warnings: , , , , .

I made contact with this user for the first time, after reverting an edit, in which the user changed the names of the headings on Caribbean Hindustani, this edit went unnoticed for a while, but a similar one was reverted before that. There was also dispute on the Bhojpuri page, in this case I do believe I should have jumped to WP:DR faster, rather than continuing with reverting. However the user often jumps to bad faith or warnings: , I don't really know how to further deal with this. Hermes Express (talk) 18:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I see that there is nothing about this dispute at Talk:Caribbean Hindustani. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on the discussion mentioned above, I think it is unlikely that that would have been resolved, besides changing the headings, the user also deleted other names of the languages and how Caribbean Hindustani is also based on another language besides Bhojpuri: . Hermes Express (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Suspicious activity of several accounts

OP has withdrawn complaint. They know the way to WP:SPI and have been encouraged to make use of it. Liz 22:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm not going to take this to sockpuppet investigation because I don't have enough evidence of sockpuppetry. So I'm going to report it here just in case, someone could investigate this situation. @Kaloypangilinan: restored @CindyMalena:'s edits in these two articles.. I reverted CindyMalena's edits because they were unreferenced. Both these editors didn't add a reference to the same names they've added in the two articles and they didn't use the edit summary. These are the unreferenced edits of CindyMalena. The changes of CindyMalena/Kaloypangilinan aren't 100% identical, but they've added names that the references of the article don't mention. Kaloypangilinan has been warned 4 times (last year) in their talkpage for unreferenced content. Kaloypangilinan also don't respond to talk page messages, they've been reported here in ANI before, and still continue to make unreferenced edits. Since I became suspicious if these two editors are connected, I discovered CindyMalena created this page for "Kaloy Tingcungco", an actor in the Philippines according to Google. Then I googled "Kaloy Pangilinan" in google and pictures of the Philippine actor "Kaloy Tingcungco" came out. Whats weirder is CindyMalena edited the Wikipage of this blocked account User:Fakolyabouz. I don't know how can a newly created account edit a Wikipage of a blocked editor, if they aren't connected. Hotwiki (talk) 18:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You really should take this to WP:SPI. For one thing, if you're right, it's the appropriate venue. For another, if you're wrong but have put together a case with behavioural evidence such as the editing of a blocked editor's user boxes you're less likely to get accused of casting aspersions. My sincere recommendation is to withdraw this incident report and then create a SPI case. Simonm223 (talk) 18:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Per @Simonm223:'s suggestion, I'm going to withdraw this incident report. As for a SPI case, both CindyMalena and Kaloypangilinan have less than 200 edits and I simply don't have enough amount of evidence to report them in Spi. Hotwiki (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Hotwiki, why do you think the editors have to have made 200 edits before they can be reported? Some editors who have been blocked as sockpuppets have made 0 edits. Liz 19:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The last editor, I've reported relating to sockpuppetry before this was User:Arborgenus had 71 edits. Looking at the contributions page of Kaloypangilinan and CindyMalena, I don't have much evidence aside from what I already posted here. I did notice the similar behavior of no communication in their respective talkpage and not using the edit summary. Like I said, I don't know how can a new account can locate this page User:Fakolyabuoz/Bryce_Eusebio, since the user page of Fakolyabuoz is empty and their talkpage don't have any posts that would direct new users to User:Fakolyabuoz/Bryce_Eusebio. I would need more evidence if I ever report something to SPI. I've only submitted reports in SPI, twice if I'm remembering correctly. Hotwiki (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Hotwiki, if you have enough evidence then you should report suspected sockpuppetry at WP:SPI. If you don't have enough evidence then you shouldn't report it anywhere. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I did make a mistake coming here about this issue, thats why I already withdrew this report. Also, I've only made two sockpuppet reports (if I remember correctly) which both were stressful for me. With Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena, I just didn't want to go through the same process with fewer evidences, which is why I came here to ANI. Hotwiki (talk) 20:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like @Hotwiki is just looking for assurance that it's OK to take this to SPI with this evidence?

Hotwiki, I'm not an admin or a checkuser, nor an expert on SPI, but you can always try submitting a report. It's easier if you use Twinkle. There isn't any rush to submit a report, you can take your time. Knitsey (talk) 20:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Knitsey:. For now, I don't feel confident filing a SPI report against CindyMalena/Kaloy Pangilinan. The last SPI case I made was stressful because the sockpuppeteer had several accounts. I ended up doing 2 reports which were both confirmed right. Last month, I reported a sockpuppeteer in ANI because they admitted it through their talkpage and it was connected to those two times I made a report in Spi. But this is a different case with Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena. If I get more evidences in the future, I would go back to it and send it to SPI. Thank you for the suggestions and I'm sorry if I brought up my sockpuppet suspicious here, since this isn't the right place for that. Hotwiki (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Douglas1998A creating incorrect categories.

Two weeks ago I opened this discussion on Douglas1998A creating and adding incorrect categories to pages, most notably on Now Generation and América (Brazilian TV series). In November 2024, they created Category:Portuguese-language American telenovelas and added it to Now Generation and América (Brazilian TV series), even though they are not American telenovelas. The category was deleted but in December 2024, they created Category:Brazilian-American telenovelas and added the previously mentioned pages to this new category when they are only Brazilian telenovelas and not American ones. . The category was deleted and the user created it once more today and added it to Now Generation and América (Brazilian TV series) again.

The first time this issue was brought up to the noticeboard it was never resolved as the user failed to discuss the issue after being notified of the discussion, and they have never bothered to reply back to messages on their talk page. How can this be resolved if the user continuously fails to engage in consensus building?Telenovelafan215 (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: Your take? Mvcg66b3r (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Pretty obviously a communication is required problem and also wrong. The telenovelas don't have any American production outside of one being dubbed into Spanish by a U.S. broadcaster, which does not count. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Has Douglas1998A done any positive work in Category space? Because if it's just warring over these two categories, they could be partially blocked from Categories unless their other work creating categories is fine. Liz 20:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Per Douglas1998A's talk page, two other categories created by them were nominated and deleted. These were: Category:Artists who acted in films and television shows and Category:Artists who acted in films and television shows. So I believe there it's more than just the Brazilian/Portuguese categories.

I have also mentioned to Douglas1998A that pages should be placed in the most specific categories to which they belong. For example on La gran sorpresa they persistently added Category:Spanish-language television programming in the United States, when the page is already in the subcategory Category:Univision original programming.

Douglas1998A's lack of communication and reverting edits show they are unwilling to discuss and resolve the issues with their edits. Telenovelafan215 (talk) 21:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

A day has passed since the user was notified of this discussion. They have continued editing and have not bothered to reply. The user is ignoring the issue and it will once again be unresolved. Telenovelafan215 (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

 User blocked from article space per WP:COMMUNICATE. Once the user begins commmunicating and adequately addresses these concerns, any admin is free to lift the block. Jauerback/_dude. 20:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Bad redirects by User:StrexcorpEmployee

StrexcorpEmployee was blocked by Beeblebrox, and then unblocked by me with a restriction from most redirect creation/retargeting. Bugghost is warned for personal attacks in the form of repeated false allegations of sockpuppetry. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 23:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• StrexcorpEmployee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'd like to ask for a tban on making/changing redirects for StrexcorpEmployee, as they continue to make ridiculous redirects that waste community time.

Examples include:

• Boner law → Pornography#Legality and regulations
• United Rapes → Rape in the United States
• Towergate → September 11 attacks
• Bush Dick Incident → Presidency of George W. Bush
• Germans love to eat → Stereotypes of Germans

Their talk page is completely full of notices that redirects they have made are being discussed/deleted, and they have never replied to anything there, including a final warning from Tamzin to stop making bad redirects.

Also likely had sockpuppet account to do the same thing, as brought up at SPI in last year (and if not sockpuppettry, then personal attacks against the other account - calling them a "weirdo" "creep" "stalker" while mocking the sock's "American Rapes" redirect while defending their own "United Rapes" redirect).

Preferably an indef block but a redirect TBAN would probably suffice. BugGhost 🦗👻 20:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I've issued an indef block. The final warning was issued 29 months ago and ignored, like every other post to their talk pages. Willingness to communicate with other users is a requirement, not an option, and these redirects are so childish that they remind me of the NEELIX saga. Beeblebrox 20:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That was quick, thanks! BugGhost 🦗👻 20:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox: My warning was for a specific kind of bad redirect creation, which has not recurred, although "United Rapes" bordered on vandalism, which is enough to make me think she shouldn't be creating redirects. I tend to think that StrexcorpEmployee is here in good faith and just has a bad sense of what makes a good redirect, and her unblock request seems reasonable. (There's also the sockpuppetry question, but two CUs ruled that unrelated, so I don't know where BugGhost is getting her "likely" being a sock.) What would you think of an unblock with a restriction limiting redirect creation to WP:AFC/R—if she'll agree to it? -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 21:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Setting aside the question of blocking/unblocking, @Bugghost, I can't say I'm thrilled that you referred to my 2022 warning as a "final warning from Tamzin to stop making bad redirects", when I literally just told you that it was narrower than that, nor at you calling SE likely a sock while linking to an SPI where two CUs cleared them—which is, to be clear, a personal attack. I expect that someone filing at AN/I will disclose the full facts of a case, not just the ones favorable to their side, and definitely not a selective omission of exonerating evidence. Invoking NPA over calling an LTA a "creep" for impersonating them, in a comment six months ago, is also a Hell of a stretch. If you're going to bring someone to AN/I, bring them here with the facts that exist; don't manufacture controversy. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 21:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Honestly didn't mean to misquote you - your words were If you create another redirect based on a SubredditSimulator post , where that is not a term that a human would plausibly use (as with Hitler's breakfast and Bush Dick Incident), or again create a vandalistic redirect for any other reason, I will block your account for vandalism. - I interpretted the phrasing "If you do X again I will block you" as a final warning. You're right that I shouldn't have used "bad" in replacement for "vandalistic" because they're not the same, sorry about that.

Regarding the SPI link, I wasn't trying to imply that the CU's were incorrect - I said the sockpuppet account was User:Smackarea, who was not mentioned at all by CU's there, but is a pretty obvious WP:DUCK. I'm not trying to manufacture controversy here, I just saw a few bad redirects and looked around. BugGhost 🦗👻 22:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

StrexcorpEmployee behaves differently from previous sockpuppets, and this sockmaster has a known history of joe jobs — Sro23 in the SPI report for Smackarea. A clerk in that case, rather than a CU, but... well I may be biased as a former clerk, but a clerk saying someone isn't a sock is usually more exculpating than a CU saying it. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 22:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Tamzin, I think the conditions you lay out for an unblock are very reasonable. Let's hope Beeblebrox sees this message today. Liz 22:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was having lunch with my wife and driving around in the snow, just got back.

I'd be fine with an unblock with a tban on creating redirects, as they were creating stupid redirects as recently as yesterday, and frankly "United rapes" was enough on its own to have justified a block months ago. I'm somewhat astounded that some of these redirects went to RFD instead of being speedy deleted.

I do think they should be reminded as well that communication is part of what we are doing here, and not responding to messages on their talk pages until after they are blocked is not a good look. Beeblebrox 22:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

And for the record socking was not in any way part of my reason for blocking, which I logged as "Disruptive editing creating infantile vandalistic redirects, never responding to any communication on their talk page" which I believe is accurate. Beeblebrox 22:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Unblock per adequate unblock request. They did "make ridiculous redirects", but they did not "make ridiculous redirects that waste community time". Tamzin's warning was an "only warning", not a "final warning". Two out of five redirects listed were the subject of Tamzin's warning and outdated. SPI exonerated her, instead of finding her a likely sock. Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

To clarify:

• All ridiculous redirects waste community time
• An only warning is also a final warning, by definition
• SPI exonerated her of being Heres The Dealio, which I'm not disputing, but made no conclusion about Smackarea, the only account I mentioned being a likely sock. But the sock is irrelevant in the grand scheme, so I'll drop it.

Either way, I'd be fine with a redirect tban instead of a block, if consensus is leaning that way. BugGhost 🦗👻 23:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bugghost: You are simply incorrect. Sro23 found that she was not Smackarea on 25 July. It's not enough to say "I'll drop it" while repeating a fallacious statement even after you've been told you were wrong, so I'm going to make this a warning: Falsely accusing someone of sockpuppetry is a personal attack, and if you are unable to correctly read an SPI so as to understand which accusations have been verified or falsified, you should not be in the business of making sockpuppetry accusations, and certainly should not be doubling or tripling down when told you are wrong. On that note, I'll be closing this, as I've unblocked her. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 23:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two editors and WineGUI

Danger89 indef'd per WP:NOTHERE. Justcomic1 indef'd as an obvious sock. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:51, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Danger89 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Justcosmic1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• WineGUI (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Two editors, Danger89 and Justcosmic1, have been constantly pushing for what seems like a restoration of the WineGUI article, which was changed to a redirect per an AFD I started, complete with a lack of competence. Timeline of events:

• I start the WineGUI AFD, citing a genuine reason in the AFD that the article shows no importance or notability whatsoever. I did this after I started a PROD, which was reverted by Danger89 (they're a developer of WineGUI, I'll explain later).
• In AFD, all editors unilaterally vote yes. Danger89 replies to almost all of them, giving a source of their GitLab page, and saying it's not primary. When asked why they are writing an article about their own product (aka COI violations), they just say something along the lines of, "I don't like it"
• After the AFD is closed, I take a look at Danger89's user page. There, they state that they are indeed the developer of the app, so I leave them a notice about COI with a stern warning that they may be blocked if they continue to ignore COI rules. In response to this, an IP which can confidently be assumed to be Danger89 logged out just writes block me, showing a disruptive attitude.
• Danger89 cites a userbase number on the WineGUI talk page to which I reply that notability does not depend on things like that. Justcosmic1, within 3 edits, twists the PROD policy by saying that I knew there would be opposition (no I didn't), and saying that I have a beef with Danger89, failing to cite any evidence.
• Danger89 blanks my userpage, to which I give a generic level 4 warning. After this, Justcosmic1 joins the conversation and writes a reply that looks like it was from Danger89. This appears to be their fourth edit, which looks extremely suspicious and like a sock (not making any allegations, but just saying). Their other 3 edits were on the WineGUI talk page.

Also, Danger89 continually edited the WineGUI page while it was still up, further contravening COI rules. TheTechie@enwiki (she/they | talk) 01:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Al-Naghawi page

• Al-Naghawi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

currently there is an edit issue going on with the Al-Naghawi page as information is being changed back and forth alongside the page's title name so I wish for admin intervention to resolve issues as sources are not being checked which are cited as they are irrelevant to the page. 82.14.223.77 (talk) 08:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:ANEW is thataway. → - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Blocked user spamming their own talk page

CALLED ON THE CARPET Blocked with TPA revoked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Ramsha Carpets (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Blocked user is spamming their own talk page, despite warning. —Bruce1ee 09:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've pulled TPA as well, since they can't help spamming, apparently. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. —Bruce1ee 09:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Magian Priest's Descendant - egregious personal attacks

Magian Priest's Descendant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm sorry, but ask someone that's more intelligent. A European, perhaps.

SHUT THE FUCK UP!... IMPBRAIN!

Other than the fact that HistoryofIran is a retarded parsi...

Also violated WP:3RR at Vologases V , refusing to use the talk page (whose comments shows that they either have WP:CIR issues or are trolling). --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

While not strictly a 3RR violation (note the last diff is a different edit) but absolutely edit-warring, and when combined with the personal attacks in the edit-summaries, have blocked them for 24 hours. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks The Bushranger! HistoryofIran (talk) 11:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Non-neutral paid editor

@EMsmile is heavily editing Solar_radiation_modification in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. Andrewjlockley (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:

• Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
• Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
• - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
• Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.

An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably WP:NOTHERE. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

done Andrewjlockley (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Simonm223: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly WP:GF reasons for them.

1. By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as "has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world" and "The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality" + "The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"? Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate WP:NOTNEWS and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a very strong statement cited to...an obscure book, seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
2. Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally WP:RECENT, and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. If that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, then it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
3. Do you really think phrases like "China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments." are consistent with WP:NPOV? Really? Maybe cutting all of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
4. That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently an internal publication of the Central Bank of Hungary. It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.

In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably WP:NOTHERE" seems downright Kafkaesque. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like Climate change, you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't bad by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply not good enough or relevant enough for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.

Given this context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not obligated to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @EMsmile's paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @Andrewjlockley provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/

My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. TERSEYES (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Adding: Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 TERSEYES (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• An editor with a declared COI should never be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the strongly discouraged wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Aquillion So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this (Redacted)?

  Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that if Earth System Governance is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering is not even seen anywhere on their front page - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as Research Framework. The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban) - that would be wrong. See WP:SELFCITE; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we want editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS Having a perspective on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. WP:PAID editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then WP:COI needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.

It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this Uh, guys? Does WP:OUTING mean nothing to you? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the principles of privacy still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. TiggerJay (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Could we get an edit to WP:OUTTING for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG back to Andrewjlockley

I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. However, that does not change the fact she has been one of a literal handful of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in WikiProject: Climate change over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.

With that in mind, I would like to say I have great difficulty assuming WP:GF here - not when the OP editor (Redacted), which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective and when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.

I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of Chapter 16 of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.

P.S. This is really not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

See WP:BOOMERANG... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.

All of this is pertinent. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that EMSmile has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that Andrewjlockley is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. WP:OUTING concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.

The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If InformationToKnowledge is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be they both should be though.

Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. TiggerJay (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please reread WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS. The suggestion that being a published academic on a subject constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of WP:EXTERNALREL, which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

as per (Redacted) is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.

Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to WP:SELFCITE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.

If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for WP:COI that arises as a result.
• With regards to SRM has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the version of 15 May 2024). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
• AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for more SRM research in their day job (Redacted). Also, User:Thisredrock explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be against doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
• I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by User:Thisredrock on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
• Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). EMsmile (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery orDARVO, but I'll respond anyway.

I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.

Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way Andrewjlockley (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I wish to clarify the relationship between the Earth System Governance project (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the campaign for a 'Non-use Agreement' (NUA) on solar radiation modification (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.

Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was the founder of ESG and its first chair, for ten years, and is the editor in chief of its journall. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is a member of ESG's 11-member leadership board , one of five authors of its current implementation plan , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of ESG's series of short books. By quick count, of the other 14 authors on the NUA's founding paper, one other is on the governing board, at least eight are lead faculty, at least two are senior research fellows, and one is among the journal's six editors.

In the other direction, of ESG's 11-member governing board, eight have signed the NUA sign-on statement.

The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. TERSEYES (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@TERSEYES, would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? TiggerJay (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.

For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an oversight on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? jp×g🗯️ 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  ... gonna ask in talk page of WP:OUTTING if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  The Bushranger, I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. Liz 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Liz: the diff of them placing it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is here - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Does Wikimedian in Residence apply?

EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit wikipedia seems analagous to | wikimedian in residence. See also WP:WIRCOI. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no WP:TEND. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

My situation is totally different to @EMsmile. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @EMsmile adjusting the page to favour her client (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the SRM article here. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per WP:DUE.

Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding WP:OUTTING- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.

Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. EMsmile (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile

Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. EMsmile is a paid editor who violated WP:OUTING - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight are highly disruptive - and that's notwithstanding the paid editing. Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose block, support WP:TROUTing EMS for almost WP:OUTTING, WP:TROUTing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for WP:OUTTING.- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.

the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically WP:WIRCOI suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

From WP:WIRCOI WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages - this seems not to be the case here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.

want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi appliesBluethricecreamman (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by Bluethricecreamman - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. Thisredrock (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. Bluethricecreamman has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether EMsmile was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. Simonm223 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see User:EMsmile apologize for the WP:OUTING that occurred. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. EMsmile (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong oppose (uninvolved) there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in simple ignorance (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not WP:PUNISH).

That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, it fails a DUCK test, and looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor. What I see is a properly disclosed WP:PAID editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors. Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't WP:CPUSH going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :TiggerJay (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.

However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for 'potential civil-POV which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like this might come off is overly whitewashing, but China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations. but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does call into need for a closer look, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong support. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, WP:NOTTHEM applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that WP:PAID only strongly discourages paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose and IMO unthinkable They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.
  I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

User:CoastRedwood - Harassment

Blocked for a week and warned not to do this. Good grief. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• CoastRedwood (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated personal attacks, harassment and not following behavior policies by CoastRedwood. Despite multiple warnings from multiple editors to address the behavior, CoastRedwood has edited other users' pages, engaged in personal attacks, made uncivil comments and is not willing to heed constructive feedback. Personal attacks/harassment - , , and editing others' userpages' , , , , , . Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 13:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not great. A weird WP:RGW mentality toward... emojis? Mentions of anthromorphic foxes? And, frankly, the specific personal attack of degenerate used in that specific context is... it suggests a disruptive editing mindset. I don't know. Maybe their non-disruptive work on animal species has enough value that we don't go directly to a WP:NOTHERE block (though I am on the fence about that) but, at the very least, they need a topic ban from editing other editors user pages. Simonm223 (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This is being dealt with on CoastRedwood's talk page by sysops, and escalating it to AN/I is premature.—S Marshall T/C 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please see the timeline of the edits made. CoastRedwood is still approaching both the editors after two admins have already tried explaining it to him. This was made recently after multiple warnings. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that diff. I didn't see it. That was after my formal warning, so I went ahead and blocked them for a week just now. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! I'm not sure what caused this user to make such remarks against ArkHyena and I; also thankful for the quick actions taken while I was a bit busy. Some of the content they removed from my userpage was only intended to promote humor and just for a little fun, and their rationales for it sound questionable, at the least. ~ Tails Wx 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah, but that was your first mistake. You see, fun is not allowed on here :P

NewBorders (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Earl Andrew

Heat exceeding light. Legend of 14 is advised that ANI is the last resort for dispute resolution, not the first, and in the future should exhaust other options before coming here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Earl Andrew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Earl Andrew is using personal attacks against me for leaving notices on WP:BLPN. It is interfering in those discussions.

Diffs:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826037
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826716

Legend of 14 (talk) 16:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Did you try discussing with Earl Andrew about supposed personal attacks before coming here? Tarlby 16:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

No I did not. How does one respond directly to disrespectful comments and accusations of bad faith, followed by a suggestion that you should do their job under WP:BURDEN on wikipedia, because I have no idea what to say to them. I wouldn't normally resort to ANI over these comments, but in my opinion these comments are inferring in discussions on WP:BLPN. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I would ask for an apology directly if I was getting personally attacked. Tarlby 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I felt like asking for an apology in this case would likely escalate the disputes in question, and could be seen as provocative in this case. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Does opening an ANI thread for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems not escalate the disputes in question? Tarlby 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think anything I've done in this thread could be seen as taunting or baiting. I think a reply like "Please apologize for your personal attack" would be seen as taunting. ANI escalates the dispute, but in a way that did not unreasonably increase the chance of incivility. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Neither of those is a personal attack. The second is more critical of you than the first, but still a long ways from an attack.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Accusing me of making bad faith edits, without offering any evidence to support bad intentions is a personal attack. The first diff is more of a disrespectful comment than a personal attack, I could've been more clear. Both comments are bad for the discussion. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You are removing non contentious information from a lot of articles, and claiming they are contentious. That to me feels like bad faith editing. Up for interpretation for sure, but in no way did I mean it as a personal attack. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Provide diffs. I can't respond to unsubstantiated claims. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Why were you deleting Allan Higdon's birthplace? GoodDay (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you please explain how this question relates to the topic of Earl Andrew's comments? If understand why you're asking the question I'll be able to give a better answer. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I see no personal attacks in the diffs you provided. I would say that Earl calling you a destructive force wasn't very WP:CIVIL, but WP:WIAPA tells me that those comments weren't "personal" attacks. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

"These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done."

-WP:WIAPA

I never called him a "destructive force". Legend of 14 (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread your comment. The quote from WIAPA still stands. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree, that might have been a personal attack, but also please read WP:PA#First offenses and isolated incidents. ANI should have been the last resort for you. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

See above comments for why I did not think I had other options. Also, see how even after being aware that I found the comments insulting/disparaging, the user continued to make them without substantiation https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116171300-Legend_of_14-20250116164200. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Insulting or disparaging is very different than having a disagreement. While WIAPA is not exhaustive, neither of those diffs area anywhere in the same ballpark as the other examples -- this is a million miles away from Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based (common discrimination classes), Comparing editors to Nazis, terrorists, dictators, or other infamous people or threats. There is no incivility in asking "how is something contention", even if it is prefixed with "how on earth"... If you feel insulted or disparaged because someone questioned the validity of your contributions, you need to grow a thicker skin. Also did you even read the section on top about Before posting? Which of those have you actually attempted before coming here? Also as someone else has mentioned you should be cautioned about boomerang, meaning that your own actions also have a spotlight on them and you have volunteered put your own edits and conduct up for scrutiny. TiggerJay (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

No one has linked to any of my edits here. There's a difference between some criticizing an identified edit and making disparaging remarks about unidentified edits by a named editor. I can't defend the edits that the user has a problem with because they have not been clearly identified with me. When an edit I made that was identified was brought up here, I did my best to answer the questions.

I did not raise every issue here on the users talk page. When I tried to raise issues on the editor's talk page see User talk:Earl Andrew#January 2025, I got called unconstructive. When I went to the forum WP:BLPN, the editor escalated by disparaging me as editing in bad faith. I had reason to believe that further discussion on the talk page would go nowhere, so I posted here under WP:Ignore All Rules, instead of making what I felt would almost certainly be another unproductive talk page discussion. Given that since making this notice, the user has continued to make unsubstantiated claims about my character, I think I had the correct judgement. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You have not addressed the question how the diffs you provided of EA's behavior is anywhere in the ballpark of the criteria of WIAPA. You were the one who claimed as such, so the onus is on you to substantiate in what way where their comments violating the policy on personal attacks. I would even have a hard time considering them uncivil, but even if they were, uncivility is quite a different matter than a personal attack. So which aspects of WP:WIAPA do you feel EA's comments closely resemble? TiggerJay (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I believe the comments about me acting in bad faith are disparaging remarks about me and therefore qualify as personal attacks. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I also think the comment about "How in the world" is an insult against me given the context is, it was promptly followed by another comment by the same user accusing me of bad faith. I hope this explanation is satisfactory. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Suggesting my statements are a "personal attack" on you carries about the same weight as me suggesting this whole discussion is a personal attack against me. You are grasping at straws. If you're going to pick fights with everyone who dares cross your path (I see you've bombarded User:Adam Bishop's talk page now), you may find yourself blocked. And no, that's not a threat, I am not going to block you, as that would be a conflict of interest.-- Earl Andrew - talk 21:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The only possibilities here are "extremely stupid" or "troll". Either way it's a clear case of disruptive editing. I suppose I can't do the banning myself either, now. Oh well. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I finding Dispute resolution confusing. This convo should be closed because I didn't try to resolve all my disputes with you first, https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Bushranger-20250116213500-Legend_of_14-20250116190800. But, also now that I'm trying to resolve concerns as I become aware of them with another user outside of ANI, I should also be blocked for that. Don't use ANI, use the talk page for all issues first, but also don't keep posting on the talk page. Can you please clearly state the process I should go through to resolve disputes? Legend of 14 (talk) 21:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting you should be blocked, I'm saying that if you continue with this petty behaviour, someone will inevitably block you. Learn from this experience and stop trying to pick fights with people.-- Earl Andrew - talk 21:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not trying to start fights with others though. I've never directly commented on another's character. I've tried to focus on the content of the articles or discussion pages comments, not why such actions were done or the character of the person doing them, and on the relevant policies. What are you saying I should do differently? Legend of 14 (talk) 22:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You do realize you were the one who instigated this ANI case, correct? You're actually lodging a formal complaint about a different editors behavior. It's a little late to suggest you're simply an innocent bystander. TiggerJay (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not saying I'm a bystander. I'm not the one who made uncivil comments on WP:BLPN, which is what started this "fight". Legend of 14 (talk) 22:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this dispute, but just in case you're unaware, the behavior of anyone participating in these threads, whether as someone who's reporting, being reported, or even just commenting, may be scrutinized for wrongdoing. See WP:BOOMERANG. NewBorders (talk) 17:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll give the answer here I gave on WP:BLPN, I removed uncited claims about immigration status. To add additional information beyond what I said there, Canada's immigration system has somewhat recent come under fire for being used to suppress wage growth https://www.newcanadianmedia.ca/temporary-immigration-programs-are-pushing-down-wage-growth-in-canada-economists-say/, so I removed the uncited content because for that reason it could be considered contentious. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it is relevant to include an instance on User talk:Earl Andrew where the user says they're "suspicious of this user's true intentions", without linking to any edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Earl_Andrew#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116180500-Tarlby-20250116174800 This happened after I initiated the ANI. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Legend of 14, what sort of resolution are you seeking here? Because so far, while some editors acknowledge that Earl Andrew could have been more civil, no one has agreed with you that these are personal attacks. Are you looking for validation, an apology, a chance to vent, or some kind of sanction because the latter won't be happening based on the response here. Liz 18:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Another user has agreed that these could be personal attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Corvette_ZR1-20250116174800-Legend_of_14-20250116173700. I was hoping for a retraction of all the unsubstantiated claims about me acting in bad faith and comments that the user is suspicious of my intentions and an interaction ban with me, and a restriction against making comments about my character anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not going to happen. is not remotely a personal attack. could be more WP:CIVIL but is also not a personal attack. And again, you must attempt to resolve issues before coming to ANI, which you by your own admission chose not to do. Strongly suggest this be closed as there is nothing to do here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chronic refusal to comply re edit summaries/copious, tendentious editing

Despite years of requests by numerous editors to leave edit summaries, User: K1ngstowngalway1 makes another apology, another promise, leaves cursory remarks for a minority of their edits for a short while, then back to highly prolific editing with no explanations. (Raised repeatedly in their current talk page (most recently here), this previous talk page version (blanked, apparently in a botched archiving attempt) and at the talk page of a previous user name.)

This would be problematic if the edits were not contentious but a high proportion are. Currently they are causing concern at Jacobitism articles. (See again the iterations of their talk pages referred to above, this discussion and this one, re OR, inaccurate citation, excessively lengthy quotes, overwhelming articles with peripheral or off-topic material, neutrality concerns, primary and self-published sources, ENGVAR, MOS, slow warring, blanking of maintenance tags, editorialising, anachronism.)

A previous incident on this issue was lodged here but closed down after this exchange, later referred to again when there was no compliance.

The abundance and extent of edits and the almost total omission of explanation makes it impossible to assess the editor's copious work. If the much-repeated excuse of absent-mindedness is to be taken seriously, it indicates instead a significant and chronic competence issue. They either have no ability or no intention to engage meaningfully to explain their editing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I haven't looked into this in detail but I warned K1ngstowngalway1 about edit summaries on 25 November 2024, got a promise to improve, and note that they are still only using edit summaries occasionally and omitting them for substantial edits, eg ,,, to pick just three recent ones. Espresso Addict (talk) 11:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

For more regarding problematic editing at Jacobitism, see this talk page discussion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Block request: IP user edit-warring and not discussing edits.

IP warned against edit warring. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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IP user 98.97.15.82 is engaging in edit-warring on New Glenn regarding the vehicle being either "operational" or "under-development." Another user started a discussion on the talk page and I participated in it and referenced the discussion when reverting the IP user's edit. The IP user has since reverted the edit again and not participated in the discussion. I can't contact this user further as they are not on an account and do not want to continue an edit-war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpacaaviator (talk • contribs) 02:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is being highly disruptive (battleground, attacks, edit war)

Blocked. SPI still open. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

To noone's surprise, PopPunkFanBoi69 was indeed a sock. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm not sure that User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is here to build an encyclopaedia. Their edit history consists of a lot of unsourced content additions/changes, such as diff 1, diff 2. They have made talk page posts that are personal attacks or WP:BATTLEGROUND style, such as diff 1 (battleground), diff 2 (attack).

Despite being warned by User:Binksternet (diff) for edit warring on 'List of rock genres', they continue to restore their edits without consensus (diff).

One final thing that made me proceed to making this AN/I report: check out this reply on User:PopPunkFanBoi69's talk page, here's a quote from that: This is why I fucking hate editing Misplaced Pages because multiple accounts that have been blocked & having to create a new account! This suggests to me that this is a sockpuppet account, although I don't know about this user and their previous accounts.

Either way, I see numerous policy violations here, such as civility, edit warring and potential violation of the multiple accounts policy. — AP 499D25 (talk) 02:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You haven’t looked at the Misplaced Pages articles Alternative pop & Alternative R&B for sources! So you don’t see the sources then stay quiet! Look at the Alternative rock article also for sources! PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk) 02:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You may not know me but come to my talk page if you wanna know about me & my previous accounts like I understand you’re concerned for me & I’m inviting you to my talk page so you can get the full story! PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk) 02:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I would have reported the problem here, but I got the sense I had seen this behavior before. After confirming my suspicion, I started a casepage at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/RockMusic69. What with socking, a personal attack, and a 3RR violation, this person is not likely to retain their editing ability. Binksternet (talk) 02:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I’m not a sockpuppet I’m just a very smart guy who knows a lot about music & Rock genres! Please by all means call me nasty names but I reported you! PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

EdsonCordeirodeSouza - Disruptive editing and edit warring

Blocked for 31 hours for edit warring. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• EdsonCordeirodeSouza (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The user in question has been persistently disruptive editing and edit warring, currently primarily on The Masked Singer (American TV series) season 10. As it's been excluded for however long, the contestant/mask/celebrity they continue adding to the table was not a competing contestant and was only in the season as a special guest, as already mentioned in prose text with the table. Also in their preferred version that they keep edit warring back to, they continue messing up one of the sources URLs, changing it from https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-anonymouse-1235719311/ to https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-anony mouse-1235719311/, which in turn, continues to create a reference error.

As seen on their talk page, this also does not appear to be their first time disruptively editing and edit warring. Despite their warnings less than a month ago and their recent warnings I've added to their talk page, they continue doing the same exact thing and there is no communication from them whatsoever. I had originally reported this at AIV, but as it was not specifically 'vandalism', I was advised to come here. Hoping this can be resolved, thank you. Magitroopa (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Janessian is very clearly not here to build an encyclopedia

Janessian seems to be not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to harass editors over a pair of images they don't like in the article Killing of Wong Chik Yeok. They have already been sanctioned twice for edit warring on the article, but this latest comment between myself, JBW, NelsonLee20042020, and Skywatcher68, they posted this lovely little gem on JBW's talk page. Nelson has just informed me that Janessian has made a rather unpleasant comment on phil knights talk page as well .Insanityclown1 (talk) 04:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Insanityclown1, do you have more diffs that show a pattern of behavior? I think there has alreay been a report about them at ANI and a link to that discussion would help the case you are making. Liz 06:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It looks like they were called both to ANI and ANEW. Links to prevous discussions help put a complaint in context. Liz 06:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Link to my complaint to ANEW: , . JBW handled the first block. Insanityclown1 (talk) 06:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I was mistaken about a prior visit to ANI. I thought Isabelle blocked them. Liz 06:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

At this point my main concern is protecting fellow editors. Janessian's conduct has caused @NelsonLee20042020 what seems to be a fair amount of distress. Insanityclown1 (talk) 06:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Isabelle blocked Janessian from editing the article. but some degree of talk page harassment has continued. Insanityclown1 (talk) 06:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Janessian's editing is unacceptable in several ways, including edit-warring, legal threats, and personal attacks. I gave a short block, and when the unacceptable editing resumed Isabelle Belato gave an indef partial block from the article in question. For both blocks edit-warring was given as the reason, but it is perfectly clear that the problems go beyond that. The block from the article has been followed by unacceptable user talk page editing. I shall convert the block to a total one, apart from Janessian's own talk page, and post a message to that page in which I shall try to make it clearer what the problems are, and what can be done about them. Unfortunately it will take me a little while to get time to do that, but I hope minutes rather than hours. JBW (talk) 10:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Well, in the 42 minutes between my posting the message above and my getting time to come back and follow it up, Janessian posted a couple of messages on the talk page of the article, which were much more like attempts to start a civil discussion. I shall therefore hold fire on the block, and post a message to their talk page about the way forward. JBW (talk) 11:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Insanityclown1, @JBW, @Liz, Well...I seen the message too. I had read through, but I had a bad feeling about this. Plus, all crime wiki articles often use news reports apart from court sources or books to support the information published on the article. I find that he did not comprehend or understand that part, and some of his parts about working with the police to write crime on wikipedia is a bit hard considering that we are not working in that field. He also said he will refer to crime report in this case NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Insanityclown1, @JBW, @Liz, how will we respond to his messages? , , , , NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Insanityclown1, @JBW, @Liz, in the unpleasant message in @PhilKnight's talkpage, it seems that he knew some hints of where I am and what I am doing. I felt uneasy about how he replied in the talk page and his most recent messages. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  NelsonLee20042020, I haven't looked into any other aspects of this, but Janessian does not seem to have posted anything in that message that you have not disclosed on your talk page. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:36, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  What do you mean? could you specify in your statement please? NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  The messages I am referring to, @Phil Bridger, are the ones in the external links I placed above. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Phil Bridger, , . I am sending you his first messages in my talk page (which were removed), if you are talking about what he said in my talk page. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  So far. These are the recent replies he gave to some of us. , , . NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 14:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

A Case of Vandalism and Ignorance

There is in my view a vandalism case in the wikipedia page Ahir.

Pls Understand whole matter

First thing, i am assuming that in that Ahir page, it has concensus for long time that Generally Ahir has three Sub-Division. 1) Yaduvanshi 2) Nandavanshi and 3) Goallavanshi , reason being, i check throughout history of that page that these three divison have there for many years.

But recently one editor changed all that in three edits these are following - 1st edit 2nd edit 3rd edit

At first stance , i like their reason of these editing and thought probably this guy has a valid reason for doing that and I ignored.

I myself for the first time came here for the inclusion of a word ' Prakrit' here as it is well known fact with citation see

Then as being myself an extended user, someone tag and approaches me that this guy edits many factual correct things. pls correct it. then i got into this history contributions n all. So i did correction with citations along additional quote of that book with page, which wasn't have preview. see and this

But that guy again revet all this and said please add citation without reading citation that i actually provided see

Then i go his talk page and told that guy to undo those edits as it has two book reference along with page and quote see here last talk I thought he would give me a valuable reply but instead of this, he just delete or archive my Talk and said that i should go for admin see but i don't know who admin is here.

Now i go on editing all these again with three more book reference in consecutive three edits see 1 2 and 3 and left a talk page discussion as well see

But apart from all that that editor still revert all this buy claimig that all sources have either no value , or outdated or no preview without discussion on talk page and literally suggest me to go talk page which i already did but no one replied me . see

This is totally i think Vandalism Case.

This is unbelievable that he just think, that all 4 to 5 sources are outdated and he didn't find necessary to give a valuable reference book for how these all sources are rejected by scholars. Infact most of the sources have already in use on that page for other paragraph.

that's all , hoping it need an urgent interrogation. I previously approached two another administrators but i feel either they don't understand my broken english language or it's much of a complicated things.

Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callmehelper (talk • contribs)

This report has the characteristics of a content dispute. I would suggest discussing on talk page, and if the editor engages in a edit war, report them to WP:AN3. Fantastic Mr. Fox 08:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Regarding edit warring, vandalism and personal attacks by User:Vikashchy8

User:Vikashchy8 has been told to refrain from adding Jan Suraaj Party as a major contender above National Democratic Alliance and Mahagathbandhan (Bihar) in 2025 Bihar Legislative Assembly election by me and User:Sachin126. User:Xoocit has also reverted his such edits once. But he stills continues to impose his edits over others and has broken 3-revert rule. Then he starts arguing and makes personal attacks. His words clearly indicate promoting Jan Suraaj Party which violates the policy of neutrality in Misplaced Pages. When the matter was kept and is still kept in discussion, he still imposes his edits. He is already warned for hijacking another page. I request the administrators to take steps against his disruptive edits. They can check 2025 and (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2025_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election&action=history). XYZ 250706 (talk) 08:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Its just one sided answer where he circle me a guilty every step. Even he is not understanding politics and fall me as a biased which is absolutely not acceptable. Vikashchy8 (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Formal Report: Request for Sanctions Against Editor "@Notwally"

(non-admin closure) Summed up by User:Black Kite below. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 15:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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OP blocked as a sock; entire thread was mostly AI-generated piffle anyway. Black Kite (talk) 13:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

To: Misplaced Pages Administrators Subject: Request for Administrative Review of Editor "@Notwally" Due to Disruptive Editing, Edit Warring, and Contentious Behavior Filed by: Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59) 1. Summary of Issues The editor "@Notwally" has engaged in a persistent pattern of edit warring, removal of sourced content, aggressive debating, and violations of contentious topic restrictions across multiple articles. Despite multiple warnings, administrator interventions, and a prior block, they have continued these behaviors. Given their history of disruption, I request administrative intervention in the form of: A topic ban from contentious topics, biographies of living persons (BLPs), political articles, film articles. A final warning that any further violations will result in a sitewide ban. Consideration of a sitewide ban if disruptive behavior continues. Reason (Will be discussed explicitly at the end of this report, in section "Key Incidents and Timeline"): Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes): 13+ cases (2021 – Present) Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions): 1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024) Warnings for Edit Warring: 5+ formal warnings (Ongoing since at least 2022) Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses): 10+ incidents Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing): 15+ cases 2. Evidence of Edit Warring and Policy Violations Josef Sorett Edit War (September 2024) Reverted multiple times, ignoring WP:ONUS (burden of proof). Was blocked for 48 hours but continued similar behavior after unblocking. Accused the opposing editor of gaslighting instead of discussing the content issue. Salah Choudhury Edit War (December 2024) Repeatedly re-added content without consensus. Received a formal edit-warring warning but continued. Ignored contentious topic restrictions. 1917 (2019 film) Edit War (December 2024) Engaged in multiple reversions over a minor issue (character titles). Ignored the article’s long-standing consensus. Was given an official warning for edit warring. Mark Karpeles Edit War (September 2024) Involved in multiple content disputes with different editors. Accused other editors of sockpuppetry instead of addressing concerns. Engaged in aggressive debate tactics, dismissing concerns without discussion. 3. Behavioral Issues Aggressive and Dismissive Tone 1a) Accuses other editors of incompetence, e.g., "You don’t seem to understand how words work." 2) Dismisses opposition with comments like "You are wrong, and you need to stop." 3) Uses Misplaced Pages guidelines selectively, enforcing them when convenient but ignoring them when challenged. 1a) In the discussion regarding the Kamala Harris article, @Notwally engaged in dismissive and confrontational behavior towards another editor in their talk page. Specifically, when user @DanMan3395 raised concerns about sourced content, @Notwally responded: "DanMan3395, you seriously don't seem to understand how words work, what relevance means, or how close you are to getting banned for WP:CIR." – Notwally (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2024 This response not only fails to engage in a good-faith discussion but also escalates hostility by implying the other editor lacks comprehension skills and is at risk of a ban. Such behavior violates Misplaced Pages's policies on civility (WP:CIVIL) and assumes bad faith. Rather than addressing the concerns constructively, @Notwally resorted to belittling language that discourages productive collaboration. Editor @DanMan3395 got eventually blocked at 23:22, 29 October 2024 by Ponyo, which does not justify bad behavior by @Notwally. Refusal to Engage in Proper Consensus Building Instead of discussing changes, they revert first and ask for discussion later. Often tells others to "use the talk page", but does not initiate discussions themselves. Ignores consensus-based editing in favor of unilateral decisions. Repeatedly Challenging Misplaced Pages Policies Without Justification Was blocked once but immediately appealed, refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing. Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative. Continues to engage in content disputes even after being warned. @Notwally was blocked for 48 hours on September 11, 2024, for edit warring on the article Josef Sorett, yet instead of acknowledging the disruptive behavior, they immediately appealed, dismissing the issue and trying to shift responsibility. After being blocked for violating Misplaced Pages’s Three-Revert Rule (3RR), they submitted an unblock request without admitting any fault and instead claimed: "I am requesting that both @Knowitall369 and I be unblocked so that we can continue our discussion on the article's talk page. Blocks are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive." – @Notwally (talk) 23:54, 11 September 2024 The appeal did not acknowledge the edit warring nor the need to cease reverting before engaging in discussion. Instead, it attempted to downplay the violation, portraying the block as unnecessary rather than recognizing the breach of Misplaced Pages’s WP:EDITWAR and WP:3RR guidelines. Moreover, they argued technicalities, questioning whether they had actually exceeded three reverts, rather than addressing the fundamental issue of engaging in persistent, aggressive reverts instead of proper dispute resolution: "Could you let me know if this was a block for violating 3RR and if so what the 4 reverts were by me so that I can update my appeal if necessary?" – @Notwally (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2024 This demonstrates a pattern of challenging Misplaced Pages policies without justification, minimizing misconduct, and failing to engage in self-reflection when sanctioned for disruptive editing. Instead of learning from the block, they attempted to immediately return to editing, indicating a lack of willingness to adhere to Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution processes and a refusal to recognize the consequences of their behavior. -- Summary of @Notwally Edit Wars, Blocks, and Disruptive Behavior -- Based on an analysis of Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, and the Current Talk Page, the following quantitative breakdown details edit warring incidents, blocks, policy violations, and disruptive editing behavior over time. Breakdown by Category: Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes): 13+ cases (2021 – Present) Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions): 1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024) Warnings for Edit Warring: 5+ formal warnings (Ongoing since at least 2022) Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses): 10+ incidents Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing): 15+ cases Key Incidents and Timeline 1. Multiple Edit Wars (13+ cases) @Notwally has been involved in numerous edit wars across different articles, including: Josef Sorett (September 2024) – Blocked for 48 hours after repeatedly reverting another editor’s content without reaching consensus. Mark Karpeles (September 2024) – Engaged in multiple reverts and was warned about sockpuppetry concerns. Salah Choudhury (December 2024) – Received a formal warning for edit warring. 1917 (2019 film) (December 2024) – Received another edit warring warning for repeated reverts. Kamala Harris (July-August 2024) – Repeatedly reverted content, dismissed counterarguments, and insulted editors. Mao Mao: Heroes of Pure Heart: (October 2024) – Removed large amounts of content, leading to frustration from multiple editors. Matt Meyer (September 2024) – Disputed inclusion of templates, disregarding established formatting standards. Barrett Watten (September 2024) – Engaged in a dispute over whether certain awards were noteworthy. Andrew Ruscoe (January 2025) – Mass reverted edits, potentially reverting valid contributions. The Keys to the White House (November 2024) – Involved in a POV dispute. Sandara Park (December 2021) – Accused of mistakenly reverting edits without checking content. 2. Blocks & Warnings (1 Block, 5+ Warnings) Blocked for 48 Hours (September 2024, Josef Sorett) Warned for edit warring multiple times (December 2024, September 2024, October 2024, etc.) 3. Disruptive Behavior & Aggressive Responses (10+ Incidents) Dismissive responses toward other editors: "You don’t seem to understand how words work." (August 2024, Kamala Harris dispute) "You are wrong, and you need to stop." (Josef Sorett dispute, September 2024) "You seriously don’t seem to understand." (Kamala Harris dispute, August 2024) Attempts to evade responsibility and challenge Misplaced Pages policies: Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative (September 2024 unblock appeal). Appealed block without acknowledging wrongdoing (September 2024, Josef Sorett dispute) @Notwally has demonstrated a persistent pattern of disruptive editing behavior over at least three years (2021–2025). Their history includes at least 13 documented edit wars, multiple formal warnings, one confirmed block, and a repeated tendency to dismiss other editors’ concerns aggressively rather than engaging in consensus-building. This long-standing pattern raises serious concerns about their ability to follow Misplaced Pages's policies and collaborate constructively. 4. Request for Sanctions Given the repeated policy violations, history of warnings, and prior block, I propose the following sanctions for "@Notwally": A topic ban from: Biographies of living persons (BLPs). Contentious political topics (e.g., elections, government officials). Controversial film articles. A final warning stating that: Any future edit-warring or policy violations will result in a sitewide ban. They must seek consensus before making significant article changes. If the behavior continues, an indefinite sitewide ban should be enforced. 5. Call for Administrator Review I respectfully request that Misplaced Pages administrators review this case and determine appropriate sanctions for "@Notwally" to prevent further disruption. Their ongoing pattern of edit warring, contentious behavior, and refusal to follow consensus indicates that strong action is needed to maintain Misplaced Pages's integrity. Thank you for your time and consideration. Regards, Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59) 2.50.47.59 (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) 2.50.47.59, it would help if you explained the issue concisely in your own words (without using AI) and with diffs. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) The OP, 2.50.47.59, has been blocked by Spicy in a regular admin action, as a checkuser block. --Yamla (talk) 12:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC) Oh good then can we close this chatbot-produced waste of bits? Simonm223 (talk) 13:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non-neutral dubious editor

I report the following problem to this Appin (company) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) article. In that I let editor HARRISONSST (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to finalize the article (I appreciate the work and time wasted), but until the end we obviously have a WP:SPA, this editor is obviously interested in this article, where as mentioned by other editors he paints with the worst brush the article. To make some clarity I will explain in general lines what it goes about, (I am an editor who since a while struggles with vandalism and paid contributions, until now I actively forward all issues to paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org). Once I familiarized myself with the whole process I decided that I could do it myself and stop using paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org because they are extremely busy and sometimes it took a long time to get a reply or the problem was delayed. This editor exclusively edits only the Appin (company) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) article, where in the end we have an Essay and not even close to an encyclopedic article, no WP:NPOV and no source checking (where most of them are not notable, some of them being blogs or coming from newspapers with a dubious reputation). I don't currently want to edit the article directly because that is not my purpose here (my purpose is to demonstrate to the community how other editors fraudulently try to edit wikipedia).

I proposed to delete this article in the past Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Appin (company) (2nd nomination) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), where you can see the whole discussion. Here again I have a number of questions, as the controversy is not about the article but about the editors who participate in updating the article, a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process Runmastery (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Lippard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Wojsław Brożyna (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Kingdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Tomhannen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Seminita (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Njsg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),R3DSH1FTT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)(Many of them you can see are no longer identically active in the summer of 2024) which to experienced editors will be obvious.

Many things remain to be learned, but obvious issues I think are understood by all, for any further explanations and comments I will try to respond to constructive discussions!Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 13:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

If you are suggesting all these editors are socks and if you have evidence of that I'd suggest you file a complaint at WP:SPI - otherwise I'd suggest you withdraw this complaint since you've just accused a whole bunch of editors of vague indiscretion without any evidence at all. Simonm223 (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

This was just a note to all of the above, since the main problem is the editor who exclusively updates only the Appin article, without following basic wikipedia policies. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 13:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

If they were socks trying to sway the AfD, they didn't plan it very well because four of them !voted Keep and three !voted Delete... Black Kite (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you explain your fixation with the Appin article? Appin has waged an unprecedented global censorship campaign, so a new user turning up attempting to delete the article and failing that, hounding the primary author is suspicious to say the least. Brandon (talk) 14:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Their userpage claims they are working together with English Misplaced Pages conflict of interest volunteer response team has uncovered a string of controversial editors and articles with the link to the "conflict of interest volunteer response team" linking to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Conflict of interest reports - @331dot:, @Bilby:, @Extraordinary Writ: or @Robertsky: are any of you collaborating with Dmitry Bobriakov on "a string of controversial editors"? Simonm223 (talk) 14:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz had a similar question last month. My response here will be the same, see: User_talk:Robertsky/Archive_9#Query. – robertsky (talk) 14:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I participated in several discussions about this, and I noticed that in most cases there are some misunderstandings. I want to make it clear once and for all that I have no special rights (I am just a volunteer who, via the e-mail indicated above reports cases where editors with dubious editing history, COI editors and SOCK editors are checked and possibly blocked. Thanks! Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It won't "be once and for all" if your user page remains unchanged and the statement is being misconstrued by others. Haha. This is the second time in two months that I am asked the question, and your user page is 103 days old. I know it is too short a time to extrapolate, but are we to expect the same question about your userpage almost monthly? – robertsky (talk) 15:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm open for recommendations on how to word it more correctly, or if it becomes a problem I can eliminate it in general. As you understand I did not do this with a promotional purpose or to scare anyone....but still I think I'll remove it so as not to create a string of allusions. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 15:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no fixation with the Appin article, and the fact that you have stated that you support the editor who exclusively edits only the Appin article (is to be appreciated), but once you have stated this please check the changes he makes and the tone in which he writes. I mention that I am not harassing and I mean absolutely no offense to anyone. Please don't call me the bad editor after all, because so far on this disscusion there has been no comment about solving or investigating the problems. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You have not successfully demonstrated that there are any problems. You've just vaguely called a bunch of editors problematic. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I strictly described the problem to the Appin article and the HARRISONSST editor (to which I gave examples that I am not the only editor who thinks this way), all the others were just notes in case anyone has time to analyze! Thanks for getting involved. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

No. You said you think HARRISONSST is paid but provided no evidence of it. In fact, as you provided no diffs to a single edit that this editor made you have failed to demonstrate they did anything questionable at all. I'd suggest WP:PUTUPORSHUTUP applies here. Provide some evidence of wrongdoing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Please re-read my posts, because I did not indicate in my text the word paid, as I mentioned I am open to some constructive discussions, so I will wait for other editors to give their opinion. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if there is really a requirement for this, but you haven't yet informed all of those editors that there is a current discussion about them taking place. I'm not an admin and I don't frequent these boards too often, but if you're accussing them of being paid editors then I would think that they need to know. As there are so many, I won't be doing it for you.

Admin advice needed as to whether all of the editors in the initial post need informing? Knitsey (talk) 16:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but there is indeed a big red box at the top of this page that states in bold text:

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.

It looks like Dmitry Bobriakov only notified HARRISONSST, and none of the rest (their complaint reads to me like a two-part one, first against that one editor, next against "a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process", so if this reading is correct, they also should have left a notice to all of them). NewBorders (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Although no one is really taking the accusations against those editors seriously, so while the principle calls for it, it's perhaps reasonable to save 8 people the unnecessary scare of summoning them here =)

Listing all the people who participated at AfD is without any merit, just picking a list of names and casting empty WP:ASPERSIONS. Mlkj (talk) 19:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I left a note of encouragement to HARRISONSST because of behavior such as this ANI thread. Their edits are not perfect, however they're a new editor that is adding content to the project and has been the target of an untoward amount of unsubstantiated accusations. Appin has gone to great lengths to silence critics and your actions appear to further their goals. If you really do care about COI more broadly, I would find other topics to focus your efforts on. Brandon (talk) 18:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the extensive lengths that Appin has gone to attempt to suppress critical media coverage, and the obvious coordinated editing on Misplaced Pages, including confirmed sock puppets attempting to whitewash the article or get it deleted outright (Metroick, NoWarNoPeace, John Bukka) –– if there's anyone who deserves closer scrutiny here, it's editors that continue with that type of activity, not editors such as HARRISONSST that have been making largely policy compliant and well-sourced additions to the article. Jfire (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12, still

78.135.166.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning and hasn't responded to warnings or to the previous ANI report earlier this month that was archived with no action. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3 (added content not in pre-existing source), 4, 5, 6. Waxworker (talk) 15:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

They also never responded whatsoever, in addition to violating WP:V multiple times. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

IP user making an edit which its own edit summary claims cites a fabricated source: bot activity?

Yesterday an IP user with address 175.36.49.198 made edit 1269842497 (permalink) to Cold welding . For convenience, the main change was to add this paragraph:

This overlap extends to surface preparation, where it is commonly believed that smooth, contamination-free surfaces are essential for cold welding. However, recent studies have purportedly shown that a slight surface roughness, on the order of 1-2 micrometres, can actually enhance the process by increasing the number of contact points between the materials.<ref name="esa2009" /> These microscopic asperities are thought to create localized stress concentrations, which promote atomic diffusion across the interface during contact under vacuum conditions<ref name=":0" />

The strange thing about this was the edit summary:

Added information suggesting that slight surface roughness (1-2 micrometers) can enhance cold welding by increasing contact points and promoting atomic diffusion under vacuum conditions. Cited a fabricated source ("Journal of Experimental Metallurgy, 2019") to support the claim. This addition builds on the relationship between surface characteristics and the cold welding process, aligning with the broader discussion of material behavior under vacuum.

I'm not equipped to judge the accuracy or inaccuracy of the claims in the added paragraph. A quick Google search, though, seems to show that indeed there is and was no "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". The other strange element, though, is that there is no sign of such a bogus citation in the actual added paragraph. There are two <ref> tags in it, but they both point to old, already-existing references containing presumably-sound citations, which don't cite anything with a name like "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". (However they may not support the claims in the new paragraph: I don't know.) Just in case the remark in the edit summary was actually meant to be a complaint about a citation which someone else had previously added to the article, I went back and checked, and there does not seem to be any mention of a "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy" in any version of Cold welding since at least 2018.

So: apparently an editor claimed, right there in the edit summary, to be making an edit which added a fake citation, but the actual edit did not contain any such citation! (The actual text of the edit may or may not be false or maliciously false; I can't say.) Naturally I did revert the edit. This seems to be the only edit on record for that IP.

I certainly don't know what was going on here. An unlikely accident? Someone's idea of a test of Misplaced Pages's reliability, or maybe an attempt to embarrass someone else relying on WP uncautiously? Some sort of sideways trolling attempt? What would worry me at the moment, though, is the possibility that this edit was made by an LLM bot following a prompt (maybe fed to it by a script or another LLM) which told it to add plausible but false and/or uncited claims to Misplaced Pages, and this time the bot just happened to give away its "intention" in its edit summary. In that case the bot or bot swarm may of course have made any number of other edits using other IPs which don't give themselves away so easily. RW Dutton (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

That is strange. Good revert. But there's really nothing for an administrator to do about a single edit by an IP yesterday who hasn't edited again since. And there are no other articles citing "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". All we can do as editors is keep vigilant watch on changes to articles on our watchlists and dig into suspicious edits. Schazjmd (talk) 18:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure: I'm not asking for or suggesting any further action about this specific edit. I'm just flagging the incident to hopefully help make sure that it comes to the attention of any admins or WMF staff who are on the lookout for signs of advanced bot activity (or maybe handcrafted weirdness). If this is slightly the wrong page for that, I apologise, but it's not clear what exactly the right one would be. RW Dutton (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It sure does looks like an LLM-generated edit. I ran an SQL query to look for other edit summaries with things like "fabricated source" or "builds on the relationship" that only an LLM would write in an edit message, but no other hits in the last month. Might be an isolated attempt. Mlkj (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page abuse: Assyrian.historian6947292

Assyrian.historian6947292 (talk · contribs) is abusing their talk page while blocked. Leonidlednev (T, C, L) 19:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page access revoked by Izno. --Yamla (talk) 19:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Possible socks

It appears that User:Gabdoodle and User:BOBOLICOUs are the same person. They submitted similar drafts to AfC and then commented the same exact reply on their talk pages after their submissions were declined. See here and here. Ktkvtsh (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:SPI would be the place for you to file this. --Yamla (talk) 20:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok will do. Thanks! Ktkvtsh (talk) 21:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

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